Coach Crean

[MU Avenue]

I do not understand why some on this board come unglued and become ridiculously defensive whenever anyone offers an accurate, honest observation about Tom Crean that is even remotely unflattering.

I have always viewed Crean as a good guy who is a fine fit at Marquette. He works tremendously hard and can be a pretty solid recruiter.

Crean is compensated outrageously well, especially when compared to coaches at other, richer schools. Such a generous pay-and-benefits package comes with enormous expectations that Crean sometimes fails to attain. It is not surprising, therefore, that some who support and care deeply about Marquette University and its basketball team grow frustrated with and express concerns about Crean and his handling of his team.

I met Crean after a game last year. He was rather pleasant and willing to chat. He even expressed excitement and gratitude when told that we had driven several hours to attend one of MU’s road games. He seemed like a heck of a nice guy. But nice guys can have shortcomings, too. And Crean is certainly not without his -- at least as a coach.

Some here heap much praise on Crean and refuse to consider that the coach is answerable when a team succeeds or fails. I do not understand why anyone on this site or elsewhere thinks Crean needs defending or to be protected. He knows what comes with being a big-time collegiate basketball coach, especially at a school with a storied basketball history and a school that has made him one of the best-compensated coaches in Division I basketball.

Some of us continue to have deep concerns with how Crean prepares his teams, including the seeming absence of an offensive plan, and with some of the decisions -- or lack of decisions -- he makes during games.

I am not sure if Crean is a hot ticket to the degree that some have anointed him. I like him, as do many others, but have trouble getting past my concerns.

I am hardly suggesting that Crean should go. But were he to leave, I am not sure it would be cataclysmic for Marquette University or its basketball team.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Nice post, I agree with most of what you said.

I agree that no coach is immune to criticism. Coach Crean isn't perfect, no coach is.

When you look at any potential criticisms of a coach, I think you also have to frame it with the overall accomplishments with that program. Even John Wooden isn’t immune to criticism, but I think his overall track record speaks for itself.

Obviously a few years ago we had a team and a player (DWade) that re-launched MU back to the national stage, and now it’s up to Crean and the current MU administration to keep the momentum and do the things necessary to keep MU competitive on a national scale.

MU has reached heights under Crean that haven't been seen since the 70's (that's 30 yrs!). No other coach is even close. Enrollment, popularity, donations, facilities, conference, etc. are all better than ever. I don’t think Crean is the direct reason for all of this, but I also don’t think he just “got lucky” with the program’s success. He is the main architect along with the AD, president and board of trustees.

When you look at similar schools (St. Louis, Georgetown, St. Johns, Xavier, DePaul, St. Joes etc.)  Marquette is in a better spot them most/all of them.

Georgetown is having a nice run, but time will tell if they can keep it going (I hope they can).

A lot of similar schools have had short runs of success, but have struggled to be successful for any period of time. I think Crean’s run has been very successful over his 8 years. Obviously we would all like a national championship, but the coaches and administration have done a lot of “heavy lifting” in order to get MU back up to its current level. I think another final 4 in the next 8-10 seasons is a reasonable expectation.

I don’t think Crean is perfect (transfers, coaching changes, play calling, etc.), but I think he has earned more than the benefit of the doubt given his accomplishments in a relatively short period of time.

I know there are critics, but I think you have to be happy with the overall direction of the program. I think if everybody has some patience and perspective they will realize the program is in great shape.

I can’t wait for 07-08. This is going to be a fun year.

If Crean leaves, I don't think MU will enter the "dark days" like in past years, but I also don't think we are Duke, and Crean leaving/being fired would be a step backwards.

[Big Papi]

"Crean is compensated outrageously well, especially when compared to coaches at other, richer schools. Such a generous pay-and-benefits package comes with enormous expectations that Crean sometimes fails to attain."

I dont understand why some on this board have to continue to bash Crean's salary when they don't look at the entire picture.  Since TC has been here attendence is up.  Enrollment is up.  The run to the Final Four helped build a state of the art facility a lot faster than if we didn't make the Final Four.  His PR is great.  MU is constantly talked about on ESPN and other media outlets.  Oh and on top of that MU has now made it to the tourny 4 out of the last 6 years with a good chance of making it 3 years in a row.  In other words, besides all of his flaws, it is money well spent.

"It is not surprising, therefore, that some who support and care deeply about Marquette University and its basketball team grow frustrated with and express concerns about Crean and his handling of his team.........

......But nice guys can have shortcomings, too. And Crean is certainly not without his -- at least as a coach......

......Some here heap much praise on Crean and refuse to consider that the coach is answerable when a team succeeds or fails. I do not understand why anyone on this site or elsewhere thinks Crean needs defending or to be protected. He knows what comes with being a big-time collegiate basketball coach, especially at a school with a storied basketball history and a school that has made him one of the best-compensated coaches in Division I basketball......

......Some of us continue to have deep concerns with how Crean prepares his teams, including the seeming absence of an offensive plan, and with some of the decisions -- or lack of decisions -- he makes during games......"

There are very few coaches who don't have a fan base support that doesn't grow frustrated with the way a coach handles his team.  Unless of course, that team makes the FInal Four every year and wins a lot of national titles.  Look at Bo and Wisky.  One of their best teams ever with an all-american player and a few weeks ago was number 1 in the land, barely beat a 15 seed and didn't make it past the second round.  As experienced as Bo is, he has made a lot of bad decisions.  His offense for the last month of the season has sucked, his swing philosophy that takes his big guys out to the perimeter is beyond dumb and his failure to double down on Estill is still baffling but I regress.  On to Crean.  Many on here seem to forget that he is a very young head coach and while he makes a ton of mistakes, he still has elevated this program to a higher level.

"I am hardly suggesting that Crean should go. But were he to leave, I am not sure it would be cataclysmic for Marquette University or its basketball team."

I don't think it would cataclysmic but I like the direction of this program so why change?  And who is to say that we could get a very good well established coach.  And who is to say that a hot prospect doesn't end up being a bust like Amaker.  The guy has taken us to a Final Four with the last 5 years and has us in the NCAA tourny 4 out of 6 years with a good chance at 5 out 7.  When was the last time that has happened?  Anyone?  But no I understand.  It really irks you that he is well compensated.  I mean you only mentioned it more than once in your post.  Just look at the bigger picture instead of the bad loss we suffered last week Thursday.  Its not as bad as you think it is.  Really.

[mu_hilltopper]

What all of this really boils down to, is if you are OK with being a top 64 team, Crean is your man.  4 of 6 .. next year a lock for 5 and 7, probably even a lock for 6 of 8.

Few extremists suggest Crean should leave today.  Crean's at 1 victory year out of 8 for NCAAs.  If he goes 1 for 9, or 1 for 10?  It would be pretty obvious we're locked into top 64.  The clock is ticking to get past Thursday and get into the top 32.

Marquette taught us that lesson.  Deane averaged 20 wins/year but was stuck at a certain level of performance.

I want to see Crean succeed, and win one next year.  Desperately.

MU Avenue:  Well said.  "CDS" Crean Defensiveness Syndrome has taken a firm grip on many people.  All coaches have faults, and no one should be labelled an idiot, or bad fan, for discussing them.

[mviale]

Fair comments, but lets also give credit where it is due.  We have finished in the upper echelon of the big east for the past 2 years.  Also in the running for 1st place in each season.  This team continues to suffer from Frosh/Soph mistakes in spring games. If we stay in tact, we will win next year.  The 10 min choke last week was more due to bad shooting than preparation. 

[Pakuni]

Marquette taught us that lesson.  Deane averaged 20 wins/year but was stuck at a certain level of performance.

Deane wasn't fired because he was "stuck" at a certain level of performance. He was fired because he was stuck in a downward spiral of performance and there was no reason, based on his incoming recruits, to believe he would or could lift himself out of that spiral. Once Kevin O'Neill's recruits started dropping away, so did Deane's success.
The guy went from 23 wins in 1995-96 to 22 in 1996-97 to 20 in 1997-98 to 14 in 1998-99. And again, there was no indication whatsoever that this trend would reverse itself.

Look, nobody is happy with first-round ousters the past two seasons. Likewise, nobody is suggesting, or has suggested, that Tom Crean is without fault. However, the notion that he has somehow "plateaued" is completely baseless.

Lastly, the never-ending, and tiring, discussion of Tom Crean's salary is both assinine and irrelevant.
Would any one of you be happier with Thursday night's loss if Crean were paid less? I doubt it.
How many of you directly pay Crean's salary? If you don't, you should stop whining about it.

[mu_hilltopper]

Lastly, the never-ending, and tiring, discussion of Tom Crean's salary is both assinine and irrelevant.
Would any one of you be happier with Thursday night's loss if Crean were paid less? I doubt it.
How many of you directly pay Crean's salary? If you don't, you should stop whining about it.

Don't attribute that to me.  I think Crean is worth every penny. 

However, stating that he's paid very well, as the OP did, is not untrue in the least.

[ToddPacker]

I think the problem I have with the people who rip Crean is that they (1) seem to enjoy it a bit too much, (2) most of them only appear here to rip on him and never partake in any of the joy of a victory, and (3) most of them are completely over the top, unhinged and obsessed about his salary.  I am a huge Crean supporter and I have questions re: his recruiting of bigs and I am not always a fan of his philosophy, but, imo, anyone calling for him to be fired is completely out of his mind. 

[Big Papi]

Lastly, the never-ending, and tiring, discussion of Tom Crean's salary is both assinine and irrelevant.
Would any one of you be happier with Thursday night's loss if Crean were paid less? I doubt it.
How many of you directly pay Crean's salary? If you don't, you should stop whining about it.

Don't attribute that to me.  I think Crean is worth every penny. 

However, stating that he's paid very well, as the OP did, is not untrue in the least.

And neither is the fact that since TC has been here, enrollment is up, attendence is up and we now have a state of the art practice facility mainly due to the success in 2002-2003.

We have one very tough crowd around here.  For those that have some very bad memories here is what we have done over the last 20 some years:

83-84 NIT
84-85 NIT
85-86 NIT
86-87 NIT
87-88 NO TOURNY
88-89 NO TOURNY
89-90 NIT with a 15-14 record
90-91 NO TOURNY
91-92 NO TOURNY

92-93 NCAA First round exit
93-94 NCAA SWEET SIXTEEN

94-95 NIT

95-96 NCAA Second round exit
96-97 NCAA First round exit.  Now this game was truly embarrasing!

97-98 NIT
98-99 NO TOURNY
99-00 NIT
00-01 NO TOURNY

01-02 NCAA First round exit
02-03 NCAA FINAL FOUR

03-04 NIT
04-05 NIT

05-06 NCAA First round exit
06-07 NCAA First round exit
07-08 ????????????????????

Hate to break it to you people.  We are not an elite team.  Heck we are not even UW-Madison but we are trending in the right direction big time.  In the past twenty-four years since Hank retired we have been to
the NIT ten times and to no tourny another 6 times.  That is 16 out of 24 with no NCAA.  Now we get a coach that has elevated our program and more than a few posters are griping about him.  Lets at least see what happends over the next few years before we decide to run him out of town.  He certainly doesnt deserve to be terminated and to topic of how much money he makes is truly a joke.  At this point in time, he has probably earned it.  

[mviale]

MUFan - I usually agree with you 100%, but you just fed the haters a fastball down the plate - less than elite team = less than elite salary.

I would argue we are a top 15-20 team and Crean is worth every penny

[Big Papi]

MUFan - I usually agree with you 100%, but you just fed the haters a fastball down the plate - less than elite team = less than elite salary.

I would argue we are a top 15-20 team and Crean is worth every penny

Yes but you have to take into account attendence, enrollment and exposure.  Add that to the fact we are trending upwards and he is worth it.  Up until TC ended up here this job was viewed as a stepping stone.  Any good coach was gone in a flash.  Yes we might and the key word is might be overpaying but he has delivered for the most part.  In comparisons, Bo's pay might be a lot less than TC but Bo wasn't going to leave with the benefits he has as a state employee.

[dwaderoy2004]

What all of this really boils down to, is if you are OK with being a top 64 team, Crean is your man. 

not top 64.  at the very least, top 34, since we are getting at large berths and losing to at large teams...

[MUDPT]

Enrollment was going up before Crean got here.  They ran out of housing with the '02 high school senior class, students who probably applied to Marquette before Dwyane Wade stepped on the basketball court.  It has definately gone up more since then, but I'm just saying.

[Big Papi]

Enrollment was going up before Crean got here.  They ran out of housing with the '02 high school senior class, students who probably applied to Marquette before Dwyane Wade stepped on the basketball court.  It has definately gone up more since then, but I'm just saying.

I understand.  I am not attributing everything to TC but I do believe a successful basketball program and more national exposure did help.  Just like getting to the Final Four led to the University receiving funds at a much faster rate than if we didn't make it to the Final Four.  We would have eventually had the AL at some point in time but when, 1, 2, 3 years down the road.

TC has his warts.  He is far from perfect and while I am disappointed in how our season ended, I think it is foolish to cram him out the door at this point in time.  And these games of what if we are one and done next year and the year after are just plain foolish.  Lets cross that bridge when we get to it and if we get to it.  We are in a better position now than we have been in a long time and that is a credit to TC.

[mu_hilltopper]

What all of this really boils down to, is if you are OK with being a top 64 team, Crean is your man. 

not top 64.  at the very least, top 34, since we are getting at large berths and losing to at large teams...

BUZZ.  Wrong answer.  Where a dozen guys on a selection committee places you does not equate to greatness.  Just ask George Mason University.

But, I get your point.  Trouble is, there's no banner we can hang for being an #8 seed. 

[Pardner]

A couple of things about Crean and his pr/salary debate--beyond BB, his biggest impact may be on the other sports.  Getting into the Big East has helped WBB, soccer, etc.  Packing home games, tv money, NCAA money, donors for The Al, other campus improvements have started a lot of momentum outside of BB.  I had a big reunion this summer, and it is clear the alumni are pumped about what is going on around campus--with bastetball and beyond basketball--but centered at The Al.

Second, I don't get the argument about it was all DWade getting us to the F4.  All great teams have great players.  I never bought the line that Phil Jackson isn't a great coach because it was all MJ or Shaq?  What?  All champions have MVP players who carry them.  The coach gets them there through recruiting talent and creating a team who knows their roles.  Al's NCAA team drove him crazy but he had three first round draft picks, and they won.  Crean's F4 team had three NBA players.  Why do we always qualify that in these debates.

He has a lot of areas to improve but give him his due.  He wants to be here and is building.  This year was frustrating because of the potential of the talent.  But, there have holes on the back line that we need to develop and fill to be great.