WSJ: John Calipari: NCAA Is Crumbling Like the Soviet Union

[LAZER]

And that's a fundamental problem.

But let's just for giggles keep it at revenue generating sports....let's choose basketball only and the 355 schools with 13 scholarship athletes per school.

I take issue with athletes not being able to earn money on autographs, merchandise, appearances, etc.  I also take issue with universities not actually educating athletes.  I also think these schools can afford to pay ALL student athletes and they can make it work if need be.  Also for football, the athletes don't have any sort of alternative and are dictated when they are allowed to go to the NFL.

IMO there's a lot of hypocrisy in the whole system and there's so much room for improvement.  It doesn't need to be overnight, but establishing a well run governing body would be a step in the right direction.

[keefe]

I have a lot of buds who went to Springs, Annapolis, and West Point. To a man they consider it an honor and a privilege.

[muwarrior69]

Oops!  Poor phrasing on my part.  I was stating they should be allowed to work summer jobs.

Might work for football players but I think the basketball players take a good chunk of their course work over the summer.

[TJ]

If that were the case, unions would get what they want all the time.  There are two sides to this coin, you are arguing only one side of it.  The NCAA can capitulate, they can say absolutely no, etc.  All kinds of things can happen.  My guess is something will happen, I'm just telling you what I would do.  In my experience, many of the changes that are being discussed will only make matters worse down the road, because people like to make changes for change sake cuz it makes them feel fluffy....they have no clue as to the unintended consequences it unleashes.  You give $3K, they want $10K.  You give $50K loan eligibility, they want $100K.  You give 1 airline trip per semester, they want 5 airline trips per month.  Just how it works.

School isn't for everyone, no one disagrees.  Those that don't want to go to school, don't.  Do something else. 

No, there aren't two sides to this coin and that's one of the biggest problems.  There is currently no union for players and their interests are not currently represented when decisions are made that affect them.  You say it yourself... the NCAA is an association looking out for the best interests for its members - the universities/conferences.  If there was a union maybe they would win some and lose some, but as it is the players have no voice.

And I apologize if you answered already as I haven't read the whole thread yet, but what do you propose as the alternative for these kids given that the NBADL won't have freshmen and there is no minor league football?  NCAA is the only game in town.  Telling a kid he has to move to Europe if he doesn't want to go to college is not a good enough answer.

[Eldon]

No, there aren't two sides to this coin and that's one of the biggest problems.  There is currently no union for players and their interests are not currently represented when decisions are made that affect them.  You say it yourself... the NCAA is an association looking out for the best interests for its members - the universities/conferences.  If there was a union maybe they would win some and lose some, but as it is the players have no voice.

And I apologize if you answered already as I haven't read the whole thread yet, but what do you propose as the alternative for these kids given that the NBADL won't have freshmen and there is no minor league football?  NCAA is the only game in town.  Telling a kid he has to move to Europe if he doesn't want to go to college is not a good enough answer.

Why not?

[TJ]

Why not?

Telling people "you have to play by my rules or leave the country" is not a good enough answer in my opinion.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

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[keefe]

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[Pakuni]

No, there aren't two sides to this coin and that's one of the biggest problems.  There is currently no union for players and their interests are not currently represented when decisions are made that affect them.  You say it yourself... the NCAA is an association looking out for the best interests for its members - the universities/conferences.  If there was a union maybe they would win some and lose some, but as it is the players have no voice.

And I apologize if you answered already as I haven't read the whole thread yet, but what do you propose as the alternative for these kids given that the NBADL won't have freshmen and there is no minor league football?  NCAA is the only game in town.  Telling a kid he has to move to Europe if he doesn't want to go to college is not a good enough answer.

Just FYI, kids can go straight to the D-League from high school.
It's a crappy alternative, but it is an alternative.

[MUSF]

Just FYI, kids can go straight to the D-League from high school.
It's a crappy alternative, but it is an alternative.

It won't be a crappy alternative if the NCAA (which is an association of member schools- for Chicos) continues on its current path, and the NBA realizes the benefits of using the D-League as a true farm system.

I realize there are some big ifs in there, but that seems like the path everyone is on right now.

[brandx]

It won't be a crappy alternative if the NCAA (which is an association of member schools- for Chicos) continues on its current path, and the NBA realizes the benefits of using the D-League as a true farm system.

I realize there are some big ifs in there, but that seems like the path everyone is on right now.

Sure, the D-League and Europe are options (even if they are crappy). But the NCAA would be cutting its own throat by pushing that option rather than paying player a small stipend. The schools would soon find out that without top-notch athletes, the interest will go down, the crowds will go down, hence, the contracts will go down and income will go down.

You will always have the people that support their University, but the casual fans will no longer pay for a poor product.

[Eldon]

Just FYI, kids can go straight to the D-League from high school.
It's a crappy alternative, but it is an alternative.

And it always will be.

MU alums will donate to continue to donate to MU, all the way up to being willing and able to pay $3M for a coach.

Will D-League coaches ever make $3M?  I don't think so. 

Until then, the NCAA will always get the better players.  Players forego NBA DLeague salary to learn from the likes of Coach K et al.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I take issue with athletes not being able to earn money on autographs, merchandise, appearances, etc.  I also take issue with universities not actually educating athletes.  I also think these schools can afford to pay ALL student athletes and they can make it work if need be.  Also for football, the athletes don't have any sort of alternative and are dictated when they are allowed to go to the NFL.

IMO there's a lot of hypocrisy in the whole system and there's so much room for improvement.  It doesn't need to be overnight, but establishing a well run governing body would be a step in the right direction.

Lazer, appreciate the response.  I do have some follow-up questions, however. 

How is it that you don't think they are actually educating athletes?  I'm curious where this comes from.  Do you not feel someone like Will Gates, or Wesley Matthews, or Steve Novak benefited from their education?  Or a Larry Williams who played in the NFL yet still got a ND education, and later a law degree.  Are there examples of kids slipping through the system?  Sure.  I have to ask, however, how much of that is also on the kid who doesn't want to put in the work.

On the autograph, merchandise stuff.  People like to trumpet out that a certain number jersey is sold in the book store and thus that particular athlete is driving that sale.  My question would be, without 100,000 people in Michigan Stadium in the first place, how much of a platform is that kid getting?  To me, the simple solution on this is don't sell jerseys or simply sell them without a number on them.  Can't the argument be made the Bo Ellis made that jersey just as important and Dean Meminger or Dwyane Wade or Tex Winter?  Why should today's players get the benefit from them, especially if they are only around for 1 year or 4 years maximum?  Am I buying the jersey because it says Marquette on it, or because it has a #3 on it?

When you say you think these schools can pay all of these athletes, the numbers flat out say they can't depending on the amount that is paid. You are right, for football there is no alternative...there isn't for fencing either.  Or professional swimming, etc. 

My issue with all of this is the NCAA is an association made up of many members, over 1000.  Multiple divisions, and even within the divisions you have the HAVES and HAVE NOTS.  I'm not sure you are ever going to get to a "well run organization" with that size because there are too many agendas.

[MU82]

How is it any different than the extortion threat they are using....our way or the highway and we'll break away underlying threat?

Do I think athletes are treated fairly?  Yes.

A scholarship valued at $80K to $300K if they go through graduation
Often an admission to a school they couldn't even get into....priceless
Access to free tutors and mentors
Access to some of the finest coaches in the country
A training ground (for some sports) to help them cash in for their careers down the road to make huge money (potentially)
Free rooming, free food, free clothing and gear
Access to an alumni base and the powerful that most people don't get a chance to have = post graduate jobs, business relationships, etc
Travel
Etc

They get hard costs taken care of and its hard to even put a value tag on the benefits they get post school either through connections, etc. 

When you say "athletes", I'd also like to know who you mean because it sure seems to me that 99% of the time people are talking about the 50,000 Football and basketball players and not the other 400,000 student athletes from all the other sports.

OK. I happen to disagree with you, but thanks for taking the time to provide a serious, thought-out answer.

[keefe]

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[ChicosBailBonds]

No, there aren't two sides to this coin and that's one of the biggest problems.  There is currently no union for players and their interests are not currently represented when decisions are made that affect them.  You say it yourself... the NCAA is an association looking out for the best interests for its members - the universities/conferences.  If there was a union maybe they would win some and lose some, but as it is the players have no voice.

And I apologize if you answered already as I haven't read the whole thread yet, but what do you propose as the alternative for these kids given that the NBADL won't have freshmen and there is no minor league football?  NCAA is the only game in town.  Telling a kid he has to move to Europe if he doesn't want to go to college is not a good enough answer.

Why does there have to be an alternative?  That's my biggest question...why?  What is the alternative for fencing, women's field hockey, cross country?  Why does the NCAA have to suddenly be an alternative for that fact that isn't minor league football?  Is that their reason for existing?  Of course not.  Life isn't fair.  If I wanted to stay home and major in something that none of the local schools had and it required me to move, does that mean my local school should start teaching that major because it is not a good enough answer?  Say I want to go work for IBM and I live in Montana, but Montana doesn't have an IBM office, is it on IBM to build an office in Montana to make me happy?  Why is it that the NCAA has to be all things to all people?  Life isn't fair.

Yes, the NCAA is there to represent the membership, the problem is that within the membership you have differing agendas all over the place.  There are people that would love to make it just a pure minor league sport, forget school, pay the players.  Others that don't.  Others in between.  Well, if that first group wants that, it sure seems to me that they might want to look into other opportunities to create a marketplace rather than bastardizing further the current system.  With each change, there are ramifications and usually they are poor.

[Eldon]

How is it any different than the extortion threat they are using....our way or the highway and we'll break away underlying threat?

Do I think athletes are treated fairly?  Yes.

A scholarship valued at $80K to $300K if they go through graduation
Often an admission to a school they couldn't even get into....priceless
Access to free tutors and mentors
Access to some of the finest coaches in the country
A training ground (for some sports) to help them cash in for their careers down the road to make huge money (potentially)
Free rooming, free food, free clothing and gear
Access to an alumni base and the powerful that most people don't get a chance to have = post graduate jobs, business relationships, etc
Travel
Etc

They get hard costs taken care of and its hard to even put a value tag on the benefits they get post school either through connections, etc. 

When you say "athletes", I'd also like to know who you mean because it sure seems to me that 99% of the time people are talking about the 50,000 Football and basketball players and not the other 400,000 student athletes from all the other sports.

Thanks for saving me a lot of time, Chicos.  I appreciate it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If changes aren't made they will take their ball and go elsewhere, it's only a matter of time. It's easy for you to say you're fine with that, but the schools that make up the NCAA stand to lose a significant amount of money. I guess we'll see if they take your love it or leave it approach.

It is not difficult for me to understand that the NCAA is an association of member schools. I'm not quite sure how you want me to look at the situation. Can I say the NCAA has to make changes, or do I have to say all of the schools that make up the NCAA have to vote to make changes within the NCAA to protect the long term viability of their association? I think the former implies the later.

Finally, stop trying to insert your "cafeteria Catholics" narrative into bball posts. I would love to argue the many ways in which you are completely off base and hypocritical when you make that argument, but I can't because it will just get the post locked. However, that doesn't stop you from throwing your commentary out there just to remind everyone where you stand. Please stop!

The analogy was appropriate, because what you are saying is if the institution doesn't change, I'll stop being a member.  Same deal with both analogies.

My point with the NCAA is that people blame the NCAA, blame the schools...they are the NCAA.  I think most people don't have a clue what the NCAA is or how it functions, and usually you can tell that from their remarks.  I'm not putting you in that camp, but the general populace doesn't get it.  Nor do they get that 450,000 student athletes are competing each year, the public focuses on 2 sports and usually the top 10% or so of those two sports and starts spinning out wild commentary about the entire system.  They have no forth thought to the ramifications of Title IX, to the students themselves, to varying schools within the conferences, etc 

I have no doubt some changes will come, because that's human nature to try and do something for the sake of doing something.  Be careful what you wish for, and I say that mostly to MU fans because this could end very ugly for a school like MU....but it also could end ugly for anyone that is participating in Olympic sports, female athletes, etc. 

I could see a world where some schools say screw it, we're breaking away and we will have men's and women's basketball and football and then a few other women's sports to comply with Title IX  Period.  No mandatory 14 sports minimums, all you other athletes..too bad so sad.  We're in compliance, we don't have any deadweight of non revenue sports, we are now minor leagues.  That's an awful ending for many human beings and opportunities in order to make sure Johnny Football is able to a stipend or some coin to sign an autograph.

[MUsoxfan]

If that were the case, unions would get what they want all the time.  There are two sides to this coin, you are arguing only one side of it.  The NCAA can capitulate, they can say absolutely no, etc.  All kinds of things can happen.  My guess is something will happen, I'm just telling you what I would do.  In my experience, many of the changes that are being discussed will only make matters worse down the road, because people like to make changes for change sake cuz it makes them feel fluffy....they have no clue as to the unintended consequences it unleashes.  You give $3K, they want $10K.  You give $50K loan eligibility, they want $100K.  You give 1 airline trip per semester, they want 5 airline trips per month.  Just how it works.

School isn't for everyone, no one disagrees.  Those that don't want to go to school, don't.  Do something else. 

So because they might want more in the future, your argument is to give nothing. You should work for Walmart

[MUsoxfan]

Lazer, appreciate the response.  I do have some follow-up questions, however. 

How is it that you don't think they are actually educating athletes?  I'm curious where this comes from.  Do you not feel someone like Will Gates, or Wesley Matthews, or Steve Novak benefited from their education?  Or a Larry Williams who played in the NFL yet still got a ND education, and later a law degree.  Are there examples of kids slipping through the system?  Sure.  I have to ask, however, how much of that is also on the kid who doesn't want to put in the work.

On the autograph, merchandise stuff.  People like to trumpet out that a certain number jersey is sold in the book store and thus that particular athlete is driving that sale.  My question would be, without 100,000 people in Michigan Stadium in the first place, how much of a platform is that kid getting?  To me, the simple solution on this is don't sell jerseys or simply sell them without a number on them.  Can't the argument be made the Bo Ellis made that jersey just as important and Dean Meminger or Dwyane Wade or Tex Winter?  Why should today's players get the benefit from them, especially if they are only around for 1 year or 4 years maximum?  Am I buying the jersey because it says Marquette on it, or because it has a #3 on it?

When you say you think these schools can pay all of these athletes, the numbers flat out say they can't depending on the amount that is paid. You are right, for football there is no alternative...there isn't for fencing either.  Or professional swimming, etc. 

My issue with all of this is the NCAA is an association made up of many members, over 1000.  Multiple divisions, and even within the divisions you have the HAVES and HAVE NOTS.  I'm not sure you are ever going to get to a "well run organization" with that size because there are too many agendas.

If you walked into the Golden Eagle in 2003 and the three jerseys they're selling are 3, 20 and 34, there's little doubt about why people are buying those jerseys

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

If you walked into the Golden Eagle in 2003 and the three jerseys they're selling are 3, 20 and 34, there's little doubt about why people are buying those jerseys

Number #1 jerseys are for kids

[ChicosBailBonds]

If you walked into the Golden Eagle in 2003 and the three jerseys they're selling are 3, 20 and 34, there's little doubt about why people are buying those jerseys

Yup, and who did he play for?  Marquette.  And if he didn't play at Marquette, would no jerseys be sold in the book store or would another jersey be sold instead?  A lot of people buy jerseys because the name on the front never changes, the number on the back always does.  So should he get a benefit of the incremental sales above the BAU run rate since jerseys were going to be sold anyway?  Since Marquette is the one putting him out to showcase, how much of the cut does MU get?  So on and so forth.

I find it to be a red herring.  Schools should just sell jerseys with no numbers, or don't sell them at all.  Then I'd like to see these guys make the argument that some older guy bought a MU Proud Dad of Student sweatshirt and claim it was the basketball team that drove those sales.

Which begs another question following through on all this logic...the students that play the mascot, they should get a cut every time a mascot stuffed animal is sold, or a t-shirt with the mascot on it...right?   

[LAZER]

Lazer, appreciate the response.  I do have some follow-up questions, however. 

How is it that you don't think they are actually educating athletes?  I'm curious where this comes from.  Do you not feel someone like Will Gates, or Wesley Matthews, or Steve Novak benefited from their education?  Or a Larry Williams who played in the NFL yet still got a ND education, and later a law degree.  Are there examples of kids slipping through the system?  Sure.  I have to ask, however, how much of that is also on the kid who doesn't want to put in the work.

On the autograph, merchandise stuff.  People like to trumpet out that a certain number jersey is sold in the book store and thus that particular athlete is driving that sale.  My question would be, without 100,000 people in Michigan Stadium in the first place, how much of a platform is that kid getting?  To me, the simple solution on this is don't sell jerseys or simply sell them without a number on them.  Can't the argument be made the Bo Ellis made that jersey just as important and Dean Meminger or Dwyane Wade or Tex Winter?  Why should today's players get the benefit from them, especially if they are only around for 1 year or 4 years maximum?  Am I buying the jersey because it says Marquette on it, or because it has a #3 on it?

When you say you think these schools can pay all of these athletes, the numbers flat out say they can't depending on the amount that is paid. You are right, for football there is no alternative...there isn't for fencing either.  Or professional swimming, etc. 

My issue with all of this is the NCAA is an association made up of many members, over 1000.  Multiple divisions, and even within the divisions you have the HAVES and HAVE NOTS.  I'm not sure you are ever going to get to a "well run organization" with that size because there are too many agendas.

1) Obviously every school and team for that matter is different, but the lack of education I was referring to was the schools simply pushing student athletes through classes to worthless classes and worthless degrees just to keep them eligible.

2) In regards to merchandise, the school certainly provides a platform, but the athletes attract the attention to the school so it's a two-way street. So why not share the revenues?  They could be shared between the school, the student athletes, and the AD.

3) I haven't taken a deep look at the numbers for paying all athletes, and I don't know what percent of NCAA student athletes are on full/partial rides or none at all, but I would think some sort of revenue sharing could provide some assistance to all schools and all athletes.

There is no silver bullet and there are plenty of reasons to be wary of paying athletes, but there is no reason not to at elast explore some sort of pay, stpiend, etc. and to put pressure on the NCAA to really look after the "student athlete"

[MU82]

Which begs another question following through on all this logic...the students that play the mascot, they should get a cut every time a mascot stuffed animal is sold, or a t-shirt with the mascot on it...right?  

Never mind ... I had a snarky response but I just noticed your smiley face ...

[MUsoxfan]

Then I'd like to see these guys make the argument that some older guy bought a MU Proud Dad of Student sweatshirt and claim it was the basketball team that drove those sales.

I know you're being difficult for the sake of being difficult, but there is a case to be made for that.

Marquette is known on a broad scale because of the basketball team. A good basketball team increases applications, which increase demand, which increases tuition, which increases the chance that the man that bought the MU Proud Dad shirt bought it because their kid wanted to go to Marquette instead of Loras because the basketball team is good and popular.