"The Last Dance" open thread

[StillAWarrior]

Once again, I generally enjoyed this (although only watched E3) but thought it skipped around a lot.  I have no doubt that the filmmakers have a vision and it is intentional...but it seems kind of strange to me.

But yeah...I'll keep watching.

[MU82]

In retrospect, it is pretty amazing that Reinsdorf was OK with Krause's plan to not bring Jackson back and to start from scratch.  What owner would possibly think that way now?  He should have recognized that Jackson was more important than Krause and that giving Pippen an extension early would have been beneficial for the team in the long run.

But that's totally Reinsdorf right?  Believing way too much for too long in his front office staff.

Reinsdorf watched the Bird-McHale-Parish Celtics go from champs to over-the-hill gang in the space of just a couple years and said his nightmare scenario was for that to happen to the Bulls.

So part of it was Reinsdorf's belief that blowing things up a year or two too early was better than getting victimized a year or two too late.

But yes, a big part of it was that he bought into Krause's plan: Blow up the dynasty and then use the enormous space under the salary cap to reload quickly by signing 2-3 superstar free agents. Unfortunately for Reinsdorf, neither he nor Krause anticipated the players association being as resolute as it was, nor did they anticipate collective bargaining agreement changes that would offer significant incentives for players to not change teams.

And finally, Reinsdorf had way too much faith in Krause's ability to attract free agents who would want to play for a blown-up franchise and an unproven coach. One of the saddest/funniest things to watch during the summer of 2000 was the way one free agent after another led Krause and Floyd around on leashes in public dog-and-pony shows, only to choose other teams. After getting rejected by the likes of Duncan, Hill, McGrady and Eddie Jones, the desperate Bulls ended up throwing piles of money at Ron Freakin' Mercer.

Reinsdorf, through Krause, badly bungled the Jackson situation. Even if you didn't want to keep him beyond 1998, publicly embarrassing the best coach of modern times due to a vendetta was horrible management.

Despite Jordan's insistence that he would have only played had Jackson stayed, the truth is that he almost surely would have stayed had Jackson been replaced by somebody he respected (Paxson or Cartwright, most notably) and had Pippen been taken care of.

So all it would have taken for the Bulls to be favored to win another title or two would have been for Krause to have eaten his pride and for Reinsdorf to have been willing to spend the money out of the golden pockets that Michael had lined for him for years. Instead, Reinsdorf let Krause hire Floyd, lose the best player in basketball history and spend the next several years as NBA laughingstocks.

Many organizations spend decades chasing that elusive championship. When you win as often as the Bulls did, however, sometimes you undervalue what it means to win titles. You also think that you easily can replicate the success if you start over because, "hey, we did it once so we can do it again." Reinsdorf made a big bet on Krause, and he's now a bazillion miles away from anything close to success happening for his franchise again for the rest of his life.

[dgies9156]

Reinsdorf watched the Bird-McHale-Parish Celtics go from champs to over-the-hill gang in the space of just a couple years and said his nightmare scenario was for that to happen to the Bulls.

So part of it was Reinsdorf's belief that blowing things up a year or two too early was better than getting victimized a year or two too late.

But yes, a big part of it was that he bought into Krause's plan: Blow up the dynasty and then use the enormous space under the salary cap to reload quickly by signing 2-3 superstar free agents. Unfortunately for Reinsdorf, neither he nor Krause anticipated the players association being as resolute as it was, nor did they anticipate collective bargaining agreement changes that would offer significant incentives for players to not change teams.

And finally, Reinsdorf had way too much faith in Krause's ability to attract free agents who would want to play for a blown-up franchise and an unproven coach. One of the saddest/funniest things to watch during the summer of 2000 was the way one free agent after another led Krause and Floyd around on leashes in public dog-and-pony shows, only to choose other teams. After getting rejected by the likes of Duncan, Hill, McGrady and Eddie Jones, the desperate Bulls ended up throwing piles of money at Ron Freakin' Mercer.

Reinsdorf, through Krause, badly bungled the Jackson situation. Even if you didn't want to keep him beyond 1998, publicly embarrassing the best coach of modern times due to a vendetta was horrible management.

Despite Jordan's insistence that he would have only played had Jackson stayed, the truth is that he almost surely would have stayed had Jackson been replaced by somebody he respected (Paxson or Cartwright, most notably) and had Pippen been taken care of.

So all it would have taken for the Bulls to be favored to win another title or two would have been for Krause to have eaten his pride and for Reinsdorf to have been willing to spend the money out of the golden pockets that Michael had lined for him for years. Instead, Reinsdorf let Krause hire Floyd, lose the best player in basketball history and spend the next several years as NBA laughingstocks.

Many organizations spend decades chasing that elusive championship. When you win as often as the Bulls did, however, sometimes you undervalue what it means to win titles. You also think that you easily can replicate the success if you start over because, "hey, we did it once so we can do it again." Reinsdorf made a big bet on Krause, and he's now a bazillion miles away from anything close to success happening for his franchise again for the rest of his life.

Probably the best assessment I've ever read of the end of the Bulls dynasty.

The Bulls probably had one more championship in them and Michael had a couple of really great years left, if the right system with the right people had been preserved. One other real issue was Jerry Krause's desire to cement his legacy with a rebuild back to contending status after Jordan was gone. It was as if Krause went off the deep end.

What would have been interesting would have been for Krause and Reinsdorf to swallow their pride, give Scottie a one-time renegotiate that was still below market but would have paid him closer to what he was worth. Krause should have swallowed his pride again and said, "Phil, as long as you're winning, you're our coach..." But he didn't and the team broke up. Would have been really nice to see him make peace with Jordan and the team as well.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Reinsdorf watched the Bird-McHale-Parish Celtics go from champs to over-the-hill gang in the space of just a couple years and said his nightmare scenario was for that to happen to the Bulls.

Right.  Which is kind of ridiculous because the Bulls never got over the hill.  We don't even know if they got to the top of the hill.

[TallTitan34]

Right.  Which is kind of ridiculous because the Bulls never got over the hill.  We don't even know if they got to the top of the hill.

I think 1995-96 was the top of the hill.  They definitely were trending down (age, injuries) but I think they had one more title run in them.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think 1995-96 was the top of the hill.  They definitely were trending down (age, injuries) but I think they had one more title run in them.

Yep.  And I think they would have better been able to attract a top player if they would have just signed Pippen to a longer deal past that assuming Jordan would have retired anyway.

[MU82]

I think 1995-96 was the top of the hill.  They definitely were trending down (age, injuries) but I think they had one more title run in them.

Franchises that never win (or rarely do) are willing to do anything just for a legit shot at that one title. Each of us can think of dozens of examples in the 4 major sports. But when you win as much as the Bulls did, maybe it's human nature to think, "We've won 6 ... why should we go to the mat just to win one more?" You get complacent as a franchise.

There is little doubt that Jordan had several great seasons left. He was still the best player in the league, still playing 82 games a year. Heck, when he came back in 2001-02 to the Wizards, he was averaging 25-6-5 through the first 50 games for a contending team and probably was the league MVP before he got hurt. Pippen had several very good seasons after he left the Bulls. So you keep Jackson, you keep Michael and Scottie, you still have Kukoc and Harper, each of whom had a few good years left, and you build around all of that with good role players.

Of course there are no guarantees you'll win more titles, but I would take my chance with that group for the next 3 years.

Or you blow it up and you never sniff anything close to a title (and you mostly suck) for two decades ... and counting.

[dgies9156]

But when you win as much as the Bulls did, maybe it's human nature to think, "We've won 6 ... why should we go to the mat just to win one more?" You get complacent as a franchise.

Brother MU:

This is a fascinating point. Way back in 1978, Marquette rather thought that Al or no Al, it was our God-given right to be a Top 10 basketball team. A blue blood if you will. We’d be like Duke is today — decade on decade of excellence.

Then came Miami of Ohio.

Life would never be the same again.

After we lost that game, my thought was, “so what.” We’ve lost a few like that before. We’ll be back!

We weren’t! That day was the beginning of where we are today. Good but not great, by any means. The administration wasn’t willing to do what it took for us to stay a Top 10 team. It began with the coaching decisions and extended into spending and commitment. It took a couple of decades before we recognized what we’d done and how far we’d fallen.



 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Anyone know what is going on with Jordan's eyes? 

[MU82]

Brother MU:

This is a fascinating point. Way back in 1978, Marquette rather thought that Al or no Al, it was our God-given right to be a Top 10 basketball team. A blue blood if you will. We’d be like Duke is today — decade on decade of excellence.

Then came Miami of Ohio.

Life would never be the same again.

After we lost that game, my thought was, “so what.” We’ve lost a few like that before. We’ll be back!

We weren’t! That day was the beginning of where we are today. Good but not great, by any means. The administration wasn’t willing to do what it took for us to stay a Top 10 team. It began with the coaching decisions and extended into spending and commitment. It took a couple of decades before we recognized what we’d done and how far we’d fallen.

Reasonable comparison. The main difference is that unlike Marquette, the Bulls had the best player in the world to go with the best "sidekick" in the world and the best coach in the world. All it would have taken was more money from Reinsdorf and less hubris from Krause. But sure, there are similarities.

[Coleman]

Anyone know what is going on with Jordan's eyes?

His eyes have always been a weird bloodshot/yellow. But yeah, it is super noticeable now.

I wonder if it is some kind of jaundice/liver function thing.

[Coleman]

I think 1995-96 was the top of the hill.  They definitely were trending down (age, injuries) but I think they had one more title run in them.

Agree. They definitely had one more in the chamber. But time was limited.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Anyone know what is going on with Jordan's eyes?

The reflection from all those gold rings has had a lasting effect.

[wadesworld]

My favorite thing about the the documentary so far has been LeBron James's scramble to put himself into the limelight as soon as he possibly could when they were airing, trying to remind everyone that he's just as great, if not greater.

After the first two episodes he Tweeted (and has since deleted) that it had him thinking about live streaming himself watching his own career highlights.  Very cool idea, LeBron!

Then he Tweeted this during episode 4:

https://twitter.com/KingJames/status/1254882206268354560?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

The guy cannot sit back and let the Bulls get some love without inserting himself into the conversation.  Congrats on your championship LeBron.  I had almost forgot you had one before your Tweet.

[StillAWarrior]

My favorite thing about the the documentary so far has been LeBron James's scramble to put himself into the limelight as soon as he possibly could when they were airing, trying to remind everyone that he's just as great, if not greater.

After the first two episodes he Tweeted (and has since deleted) that it had him thinking about live streaming himself watching his own career highlights.  Very cool idea, LeBron!

Then he Tweeted this during episode 4:

https://twitter.com/KingJames/status/1254882206268354560?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

The guy cannot sit back and let the Bulls get some love without inserting himself into the conversation.  Congrats on your championship LeBron.  I had almost forgot you had one before your Tweet.

While I don't disagree with you, it has been reported that Jordan finally decided to green light the documentary in June 2016.  Hmmm...I wonder what made MJ want to "insert himself into the conversation" at that particular point in time.  It's almost like these ultra-talented athletes have huge egos or something.

Look, I personally think that MJ is the GOAT, but they all crave attention.  LeBron started to feel a little overshadowed, so he sent out a couple tweets; MJ finally approved a 10-hour documentary.

[Billy Hoyle]

While I don't disagree with you, it has been reported that Jordan finally decided to green light the documentary in June 2016.  Hmmm...I wonder what made MJ want to "insert himself into the conversation" at that particular point in time.  It's almost like these ultra-talented athletes have huge egos or something.

Look, I personally think that MJ is the GOAT, but they all crave attention.  LeBron started to feel a little overshadowed, so he sent out a couple tweets; MJ finally approved a 10-hour documentary.

correct.  that footage had been sitting a vault for over 20 years. Something must have happened to change Mike's mind. What could it have been?

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/04/the-last-dance-michael-jordan-approval-lebron-james

"On the very day LeBron James was celebrating what many have called the greatest NBA Finals performance in history, Michael Jordan finally said yes to a series that will likely convince a large swath of new generation that he’s the greatest player to ever live. That may just be a coincidence, but it also may not be."

[wadesworld]

MJ’s a condescending douche?

Next thing you’ll be telling me is the Pope is Catholic!

[MU82]

correct.  that footage had been sitting a vault for over 20 years. Something must have happened to change Mike's mind. What could it have been?

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/04/the-last-dance-michael-jordan-approval-lebron-james

"On the very day LeBron James was celebrating what many have called the greatest NBA Finals performance in history, Michael Jordan finally said yes to a series that will likely convince a large swath of new generation that he’s the greatest player to ever live. That may just be a coincidence, but it also may not be."

I hadn't heard this. That's good stuff.

Super-duperstars are hyper-competitive about everything and always willing to remind folks how super they are. Who'da thunk it?

[tower912]

Piston fans. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Wonder when the series will get to MJ and all the white women he was with while still married to Juanita.

[MU82]

Wonder when the series will get to MJ and all the white women he was with while still married to Juanita.

Would it have been more acceptable to you if MJ were cheating on Juanita with black women?

[Lennys Tap]

Brother MU:

This is a fascinating point. Way back in 1978, Marquette rather thought that Al or no Al, it was our God-given right to be a Top 10 basketball team. A blue blood if you will. We’d be like Duke is today — decade on decade of excellence.

Then came Miami of Ohio.

Life would never be the same again.

After we lost that game, my thought was, “so what.” We’ve lost a few like that before. We’ll be back!

We weren’t! That day was the beginning of where we are today. Good but not great, by any means. The administration wasn’t willing to do what it took for us to stay a Top 10 team. It began with the coaching decisions and extended into spending and commitment. It took a couple of decades before we recognized what we’d done and how far we’d fallen.

Brother dgies

We were a top 10 team each of the last 9 years of the McGuire era.

With returning stars From the 77 champs Butch Lee, Jim Boylan, Jerome Whitehead and Bernard Toone we were again a top 10 team - because Hank inherited a full refrigerator. But we didn’t finish in the top 10 again for 25 years and five or six years later we weren’t even a .500 team. If you didn’t realize for a couple of decades that the party was over I respectfully submit that you weren’t paying much attention.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Would it have been more acceptable to you if MJ were cheating on Juanita with black women?

Back then, it was a big deal.

I dont give a rip either way.  Dude got a lot of poon, can't blame him.

Of course, you would disapprove if they weren't dressed properly.

[MU82]

Back then, it was a big deal.

I dont give a rip either way.  Dude got a lot of poon, can't blame him.

Of course, you would disapprove if they weren't dressed properly.

Ah.

[dgies9156]

Brother dgies

We were a top 10 team each of the last 9 years of the McGuire era.

With returning stars From the 77 champs Butch Lee, Jim Boylan, Jerome Whitehead and Bernard Toone we were again a top 10 team - because Hank inherited a full refrigerator. But we didn’t finish in the top 10 again for 25 years and five or six years later we weren’t even a .500 team. If you didn’t realize for a couple of decades that the party was over I respectfully submit that you weren’t paying much attention.

Brother Lenny:

By 1980, I knew it was over. The reason was that Hank failed to recruit anywhere close to the level that Al did. When Terrell Schlundt was our big recruit in the early 1980s, we knew we had problems.

My point was I failed on the day we lost to Miami of Ohio to understand what that meant. I'll admit, with the wisdom of age, I should have known better -- and the administration should have known better as well. By 1981, I knew we were in BIG trouble and needed something to jump start us.

We weren't what we were and we're still looking for that special something. Here's hoping this class of recruits will help us find it.