Why We're 5-8 in the BE

[connie]

I think if you give this team to say, Huggins, they’d be playing far better defense.

No doubt.  But Huggins would not be employed by MU.  Everything is a choice.

[Floorslapper]

Undeniably a great a win for Buzz and he’s undeniably a good coach, but any time VT has a good win people act like he’s John Wooden. VT will be in the tournament, let’s see if they do anything...

You need to frame this with appropriate context:

Buzz AT MU:
6 seasons
5 NCAA appearances
2 Sweet 16s
1 Elite 8

Buzz proved he could win, and win pretty big at MU, and do some damage in the tournament.

Buzz took over a VaTech program that was:
169th in the country and finished 2-16 in ACC play prior to his arrival.

Marquette blew it with Buzz.  Yes he was quirky AF, but so was Al McGuire.  Pilarz, Larry Williams were a train wreck of "leadership."  Thankfully, we realized that fairly quickly and got rid of both, but not before the damage had been done and we ran off our best coach since Al.

[brewcity77]

Marquette blew it with Buzz.  Yes he was quirky AF, but so was Al McGuire.  Pilarz, Larry Williams were a train wreck of "leadership."  Thankfully, we realized that fairly quickly and got rid of both, but not before the damage had been done and we ran off our best coach since Al.

Buzz is a great basketball coach, but thank god he's gone. We'd be getting flak like Michigan State right now if Buzz was still here.

[4everwarriors]

I don't buy the logic. If NCAA atrocities ocurred when Buzz wuz here, woodant wee bee penalized even thoe he left?

[GGGG]

I don't buy the logic. If NCAA atrocities ocurred when Buzz wuz here, woodant wee bee penalized even thoe he left?

What happened wasn’t an NCAA issue.

[Floorslapper]

Buzz is a great basketball coach, but thank god he's gone. We'd be getting flak like Michigan State right now if Buzz was still here.

Wow.  Really?  I'd never heard things got remotely close to MSU.  Please share with us what happened that bordered MSU.  I'll hang up and listen.

[Galway Eagle]

Wow.  Really?  I'd never heard things got remotely close to MSU.  Please share with us what happened that bordered MSU.  I'll hang up and listen.

http://archive.jsonline.com/newswatch/132779248.html

[brewcity77]

Wow.  Really?  I'd never heard things got remotely close to MSU.  Please share with us what happened that bordered MSU.  I'll hang up and listen.

Was it so long ago that we forgot the Tribune story? Pretty sure 2011 would be getting reviewed in a modern light if Buzz was still our coach:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-assaults-20110621-story.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-cases-20111028-story.html

Read those again in a modern light and tell me we wouldn't be under intense scrutiny right now for this. Buzz leaving saved us from this being back on the front pages all over again.

[wadesworld]

The difference, of course, is that MU (at least to my knowledge, and I certainly would hope doesn’t) doesn’t employ someone like Larry Nassar that would bring light to the issues at hand.

It’s a good thing Buzz is gone. But Marquette was not going to be looked at like MSU or PSU unless hundreds of children were being sexually assaulted at the school. As far as I know that has never occurred.

[GGGG]

Was it so long ago that we forgot the Tribune story? Pretty sure 2011 would be getting reviewed in a modern light if Buzz was still our coach:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-assaults-20110621-story.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-cases-20111028-story.html

Read those again in a modern light and tell me we wouldn't be under intense scrutiny right now for this. Buzz leaving saved us from this being back on the front pages all over again.

Remember that Ners wrote that off as “a woman scorned” when that first came to light. He may not be the best to judge.

Buzz flat out violated Marquette’s Title IX policy when that incident occurred. It’s the reason SC was fired and the BOT was concerned about his actions. They were right to be concerned. Their solution was poor.

If that occurred today, he’d be gone by Tuesday. He’s lucky.

[Floorslapper]

Was it so long ago that we forgot the Tribune story? Pretty sure 2011 would be getting reviewed in a modern light if Buzz was still our coach:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-assaults-20110621-story.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-cases-20111028-story.html

Read those again in a modern light and tell me we wouldn't be under intense scrutiny right now for this. Buzz leaving saved us from this being back on the front pages all over again.

I understand that we live in a guilty until proven innocent reality these days, yet not sure you can make the leap that MU under Buzz was a parallel or in the same zip code as MSU.

Furthermore, law enforcement did not press charges in those incidents, and you'd think if Buzz Williams were the scourge of the Earth, another high major institution would not have hired him.  Lastly, while the head coach bears ultimate responsibility for the actions of the players within the program, I tend to feel a coach cannot be with his players 24x7 and that 18-22 year old men make dumb decisions on college campuses all over the country.

For context, should the Dean of Admissions be forced out of their position, because a non-athlete undergrad commits an ALLEGED sexual assault?  I mean after all, the Dean of Admissions oversees the admissions process to a university, correct?  Should they be forced out due to the actions of a student they admit?

[GGGG]

I understand that we live in a guilty until proven innocent reality these days, yet not sure you can make the leap that MU under Buzz was a parallel or in the same zip code as MSU.

Furthermore, law enforcement did not press charges in those incidents, and you'd think if Buzz Williams were the scourge of the Earth, another high major institution would not have hired him.  Lastly, while the head coach bears ultimate responsibility for the actions of the players within the program, I tend to feel a coach cannot be with his players 24x7 and that 18-22 year old men make dumb decisions on college campuses all over the country.

For context, should the Dean of Admissions be forced out of their position, because a non-athlete undergrad commits an ALLEGED sexual assault?  I mean after all, the Dean of Admissions oversees the admissions process to a university, correct?  Should they be forced out due to the actions of a student they admit?

I don't think you have a full understanding of what Buzz's responsibilities were as a University employee under Title IX, and how he acted in violation of those policies. 

[Floorslapper]

I don't think you have a full understanding of what Buzz's responsibilities were as a University employee under Title IX, and how he acted in violation of those policies.

I'm certainly open to being educated on this topic...please elaborate what those responsibilities were, how he violated, and what MU's policy was to remedy such violations.  Do we know if Marquette or any other institution has a clearly articulated policy as to what is to happen to a coach for a TitleIX violation?

[wadesworld]

I understand that we live in a guilty until proven innocent reality these days, yet not sure you can make the leap that MU under Buzz was a parallel or in the same zip code as MSU.

Furthermore, law enforcement did not press charges in those incidents, and you'd think if Buzz Williams were the scourge of the Earth, another high major institution would not have hired him.  Lastly, while the head coach bears ultimate responsibility for the actions of the players within the program, I tend to feel a coach cannot be with his players 24x7 and that 18-22 year old men make dumb decisions on college campuses all over the country.

For context, should the Dean of Admissions be forced out of their position, because a non-athlete undergrad commits an ALLEGED sexual assault?  I mean after all, the Dean of Admissions oversees the admissions process to a university, correct?  Should they be forced out due to the actions of a student they admit?

There is no parallel to MU on the whole and MSU on the whole. But what Buzz did is far more damning than what Izzo did.

Izzo appears to have been ignorant to what was going on with his program. Maybe even willfully ignorant, which would be an issue. But Buzz went out of his way to bring together witnesses in the MU case to ensure they were all on the same page and even had his players contact the victim to get her side of the story. That is not just being “unable to be around his players 24/7.” That is going out of his way to help make sure his players weren’t convicted of a sexual assault.

That combined with recruiting a player who ended up in jail for rape and another who lit a girl’s hair on fire in a chemistry lab and not accepting that the player could not enroll at Marquette led Marquette to rightfully decide it was time to go in a different direction.

[GGGG]

I'm certainly open to being educated on this topic...please elaborate what those responsibilities were, how he violated, and what MU's policy was to remedy such violations.  Do we know if Marquette or any other institution has a clearly articulated policy as to what is to happen to a coach for a TitleIX violation?

Every institution is required to have such a policy or else they are in violation of federal law.  Here is what is required of Marquette faculty staff if they "receive information about sexual misconduct involving any university student, faculty or staff member."

http://www.marquette.edu/sexual-misconduct/faculty-staff.php

Their obligation isn't to judge the validity of the action or get more information.  Just report the action to a Title IX officer. The Title IX officer, who is hopefully competently trained, takes it from there. 

One thing that should NOT be done by an employee, is encourage a student to contact the alleged victim to figure out what the nature of their accusation might be.

[brewcity77]

Izzo appears to have been ignorant to what was going on with his program. Maybe even willfully ignorant, which would be an issue. But Buzz went out of his way to bring together witnesses in the MU case to ensure they were all on the same page and even had his players contact the victim to get her side of the story. That is not just being “unable to be around his players 24/7.” That is going out of his way to help make sure his players weren’t convicted of a sexual assault.

This for me is the issue exactly. Buzz worked to coordinate what was going on with the players and control the story. I can understand why some of the actions were taken (not agreeing, just understand the thinking), but anyone looking at it now would see it in a worse light than it was seen at the time, and it was bad even then.

Understand also I'm not talking about Larry Nassar but specifically about what happened around the MSU basketball and football programs. I think what happened here was as bad, if not worse.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I don't think you have a full understanding of what Buzz's responsibilities were as a University employee under Title IX, and how he acted in violation of those policies.

Again, the problem wasn't that Buzz didn't follow Title IX, it was that the university didn't. In fact, the BOT approved policy in place was indeed followed. In the basketball case, the athletes went through adjucation and were in fact disciplined. But there were hundreds of other incidents not involving athletes where Title IX was also not followed, and this seems to be missed in all this. These weren't swept under the rug, per se, as they went through the process in place. MSU chose to ignore Title IX in Athletics it seems and had no other policy.

Why Cottingham was fired was because he wrote the original policy as Legal Counsel and the Title IX guidelines as it relates to these cases were never instituted in that role or later when he became AD. Pilarz would have loved to have taken out Buzz as well at the same time as he took out others, all before he officially took office. He didn't have cause essentially as Buzz's bosses were to blame, including the team meeting and follow which should have been a no-no.

[Floorslapper]

Good stuff Wades, Brew, Sultan.  Measured middle ground achieved.  Buzz probably should have handled it better, yet knowing Buzz, he looked at his players like his own children and probably was overly protective.

I don't feel it is fair to hold Buzz responsible for what happened in the Clark situation as that happened after the recruitment/prior to Clark getting to campus.  Malek Harris?  Perhaps questionable choice to recruit - yet we also are a Jesuit institution and part of our education is that of forgiveness/second chances.

I'd say on the whole Buzz's players turned out to be pretty good reps of the university - Jimmy, Jae, Vander, Dwight, all have been "used" to market our basketball program, and all have been pretty good, stand up guys.

[brewcity77]

Good stuff Wades, Brew, Sultan.  Measured middle ground achieved.  Buzz probably should have handled it better, yet knowing Buzz, he looked at his players like his own children and probably was overly protective.

I feel like I see both sides of it. I get why Buzz was protective and as involved at the time as he was, but I also get that in today's climate, events like this are being revisited and what seemed like rational judgments at the time are being evaluated with a different lens than they were given in the past. Honestly, it would surprise me if there didn't end up being a few more significant coaching casualties in the next year or so because of past events like this. I'm sure what happened at MSU and Marquette are not isolated to those two campuses.

[GGGG]

Again, the problem wasn't that Buzz didn't follow Title IX, it was that the university didn't. In fact, the BOT approved policy in place was indeed followed. In the basketball case, the athletes went through adjucation and were in fact disciplined. But there were hundreds of other incidents not involving athletes where Title IX was also not followed, and this seems to be missed in all this. These weren't swept under the rug, per se, as they went through the process in place. MSU chose to ignore Title IX in Athletics it seems and had no other policy.

Why Cottingham was fired was because he wrote the original policy as Legal Counsel and the Title IX guidelines as it relates to these cases were never instituted in that role or later when he became AD. Pilarz would have loved to have taken out Buzz as well at the same time as he took out others, all before he officially took office. He didn't have cause essentially as Buzz's bosses were to blame, including the team meeting and follow which should have been a no-no.

Buzz was in violation of his responsibilities under the University's Title IX policy.

[GGGG]

Good stuff Wades, Brew, Sultan.  Measured middle ground achieved.  Buzz probably should have handled it better, yet knowing Buzz, he looked at his players like his own children and probably was overly protective.

"Probably" should have handled it better???

Without question he should have handled it better.  As an employee, he has an obligation to ALL students.  Not just those on his team.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Buzz was in violation of his responsibilities under the University's Title IX policy.

Again, the entire university administration was in violation of their responsibilities of the federal guidelines on ALL these cases. The BOT-approved policy in place was followed. We all know that it was wrong to do so.

But, you cannot go back and blame a coach and say the university policy that we trained you on was followed, but it shouldn't have because we should have followed this other federal policy we chose to ignore. Oh, and you are to blame for these other 100 similar cases that didn't involve an athlete too because you are the public face of the university.

[GGGG]

Again, the entire university administration was in violation of their responsibilities of the federal guidelines on ALL these cases. The BOT-approved policy in place was followed. We all know that it was wrong to do so.

But, you cannot go back and blame a coach and say the university policy that we trained you on was followed, but it shouldn't have because we should have followed this other federal policy we chose to ignore. Oh, and you are to blame for these other 100 similar cases that didn't involve an athlete too because you are the public face of the university.

The entirely of Marquette's policy was in violation.

However the obligation by Marquette employees to report WAS in place at the time of the incident.  Whether Buzz was properly trained in those obligations, or whether or not he willfully disregarded them, is unknown by me. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

The entirely of Marquette's policy was in violation.

However the obligation by Marquette employees to report WAS in place at the time of the incident.  Whether Buzz was properly trained in those obligations, or whether or not he willfully disregarded them, is unknown by me.

What's incredible in this case, the MSU and other sports cases, is you see the AD telling the coach to handle it.  First, as you are pointing out, that is a violation of Title IX.  Second, it exposes your highest priced employees to unnecessary legal risk. Third, it will always look like you are covering something up.

Lastly, the press seems very overly focused on frats and athletics in these cases.  Granted, the formula for trouble is there and is sensational.  However, no real focus is on other victims, which are the vast majority of cases.  This has become known as the "Buzz Williams incidents", for example, and the other 100 cases handled in the same poor way are barely mentioned.  This was a "Marquette Issue".

[Lennys Tap]

Again, the entire university administration was in violation of their responsibilities of the federal guidelines on ALL these cases. The BOT-approved policy in place was followed. We all know that it was wrong to do so.

But, you cannot go back and blame a coach and say the university policy that we trained you on was followed, but it shouldn't have because we should have followed this other federal policy we chose to ignore. Oh, and you are to blame for these other 100 similar cases that didn't involve an athlete too because you are the public face of the university.

This. +1000