Hate to say it but...

[wadesworld]

I know it's getting old coming from me as I've been the biggest hater of Todd Mayo on this board for some time now, but am I the only one who doesn't think it was a coincidence that we finally got some offensive production the one game we knew Todd would not be playing (not including Grambling because, well, yeah...)?  The flow of the offense is just much better without him.  I understand that he can score the ball, but the offense literally just stops every single time he touches the ball, without fail.

I missed the first half, but at least in the second half the offense was spread nicely and it opened up some looks for Gardner, some drives for DeWil and JJJ, and some 3s for Jake.  People made the passes they should have been making, people were moving well off the ball and setting screens, etc.  None of that ever happens when Todd is on the floor.

To be honest, I think we're better off with Todd in the game on the defensive side of the ball and worse off with him in on the offensive side of the ball.  Crazy to say that, but that is what I have seen this year.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Before tonight's game, I was prepared to write Jake Thomas off as a solid contributor for Marquette basketball (shows how little I know).  Still a ton of time left in the season (and for Todd Mayo's career at MU) for us to be surprised.

However, what are we expecting of him for the team?  Lead-scorer?  2nd leading-scorer?  6th man?  I believe, and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, Mayo only had one scholarship offer from a Big East school (big factor in him coming here).  He can light it up when on, but he has done pretty much as expected, IMO.

[Hards Alumni]

I know it's getting old coming from me as I've been the biggest hater of Todd Mayo on this board for some time now, but am I the only one who doesn't think it was a coincidence that we finally got some offensive production the one game we knew Todd would not be playing (not including Grambling because, well, yeah...)?  The flow of the offense is just much better without him.  I understand that he can score the ball, but the offense literally just stops every single time he touches the ball, without fail.

I missed the first half, but at least in the second half the offense was spread nicely and it opened up some looks for Gardner, some drives for DeWil and JJJ, and some 3s for Jake.  People made the passes they should have been making, people were moving well off the ball and setting screens, etc.  None of that ever happens when Todd is on the floor.

To be honest, I think we're better off with Todd in the game on the defensive side of the ball and worse off with him in on the offensive side of the ball.  Crazy to say that, but that is what I have seen this year.

+1 quietly.

[4th and State]

I know it's getting old coming from me as I've been the biggest hater of Todd Mayo on this board for some time now, but am I the only one who doesn't think it was a coincidence that we finally got some offensive production the one game we knew Todd would not be playing (not including Grambling because, well, yeah...)?  The flow of the offense is just much better without him.  I understand that he can score the ball, but the offense literally just stops every single time he touches the ball, without fail.

I missed the first half, but at least in the second half the offense was spread nicely and it opened up some looks for Gardner, some drives for DeWil and JJJ, and some 3s for Jake.  People made the passes they should have been making, people were moving well off the ball and setting screens, etc.  None of that ever happens when Todd is on the floor.

To be honest, I think we're better off with Todd in the game on the defensive side of the ball and worse off with him in on the offensive side of the ball.  Crazy to say that, but that is what I have seen this year.

I agree.  Said it in the ASU thread.  Love what I see in JJJ the kid is going to be great for MU (along with Deonte) and Mayo only takes minutes away.

[Dawson Rental]

Before tonight's game, I was prepared to write Jake Thomas off as a solid contributor for Marquette basketball (shows how little I know).  Still a ton of time left in the season (and for Todd Mayo's career at MU) for us to be surprised.

However, what are we expecting of him for the team?  Lead-scorer?  2nd leading-scorer?  6th man?  I believe, and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, Mayo only had one scholarship offer from a Big East school (big factor in him coming here).  He can light it up when on, but he has done pretty much as expected, IMO.

I believe that he had an offer from West Virginia which at the time was a Big East school.

[MUSF]

However, what are we expecting of him for the team?  Lead-scorer?  2nd leading-scorer?  6th man?  I believe, and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, Mayo only had one scholarship offer from a Big East school (big factor in him coming here).  He can light it up when on, but he has done pretty much as expected, IMO.

I expect him to play team ball within the system. This is something he has struggled with in the past. As much as it kills me to say this, I can't find anything to disagree with in wadesworld's post.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Disagree completely. We are a much better team with Todd. Jake and Derrick played really well tonight but I dont think they hve that same scoring output for the rest of the season.

[NersEllenson]

So let me get this straight - Jake Thomas finally hits the same looks he's been getting all year - and now that is the result of Todd not being on the floor?  

Tonight's large improvement was a complete result of Derrick Wilson actually getting into the paint, and doing more than just dribbling at the top of the key and passing laterally.  Derrick attacked the rim, made a few baskets, and when he didn't he drew help which further opened up some of the perimeter game.

I'm not sure there is 1 thing Jake Thomas does better than Todd.  If we continue to get the same caliber of point guard play from Derrick, things will only get better when both Jake and Todd are on the floor with him.  Todd has a ton of game, and to think he's been the problem with what's ailed this team is ridiculous - he's the leading scorer on the team and his shooting percentages are among the best on the team.

It all comes down to Point Guard play....tonight was a step in the right direction and I've been brutal on Derrick.

[4th and State]

I believe that he had an offer from West Virginia which at the time was a Big East school.

Yes he did.  Even has a WV tattoo on his shoulder.

[Dawson Rental]

I know it's getting old coming from me as I've been the biggest hater of Todd Mayo on this board for some time now, but am I the only one who doesn't think it was a coincidence that we finally got some offensive production the one game we knew Todd would not be playing (not including Grambling because, well, yeah...)?  The flow of the offense is just much better without him.  I understand that he can score the ball, but the offense literally just stops every single time he touches the ball, without fail.

I missed the first half, but at least in the second half the offense was spread nicely and it opened up some looks for Gardner, some drives for DeWil and JJJ, and some 3s for Jake.  People made the passes they should have been making, people were moving well off the ball and setting screens, etc.  None of that ever happens when Todd is on the floor.

To be honest, I think we're better off with Todd in the game on the defensive side of the ball and worse off with him in on the offensive side of the ball.  Crazy to say that, but that is what I have seen this year.

Todd would have been a big help on offense in the first half which as you said you didn't see.  A lot of guys seemed afraid to shoot, something that was remedied at halftime.  I can see no reason to think that a guy who was admittedly pressing when others couldn't or wouldn't step it up earlier than the second half of tonight's game couldn't be more effective when his teammates aren't standing around hoping for him to save the day.

[Hards Alumni]

So let me get this straight - Jake Thomas finally hits the same looks he's been getting all year - and now that is the result of Todd not being on the floor?  

Tonight's large improvement was a complete result of Derrick Wilson actually getting into the paint, and doing more than just dribbling at the top of the key and passing laterally.  Derrick attacked the rim, made a few baskets, and when he didn't he drew help which further opened up some of the perimeter game.

I'm not sure there is 1 thing Jake Thomas does better than Todd.  If we continue to get the same caliber of point guard play from Derrick, things will only get better when both Jake and Todd are on the floor with him.  Todd has a ton of game, and to think he's been the problem with what's ailed this team is ridiculous - he's the leading scorer on the team and his shooting percentages are among the best on the team.

It all comes down to Point Guard play....tonight was a step in the right direction and I've been brutal on Derrick.

So, if I'm reading this right, Derrick Wilson is a high major D1 player and you retract your month long tear down of him?  Okay good.  Glad we have that covered.

edit: sorry, that was unfair, you admitted he progressed... apologies.

[MUSF]

So let me get this straight - Jake Thomas finally hits the same looks he's been getting all year - and now that is the result of Todd not being on the floor?  

Tonight's large improvement was a complete result of Derrick Wilson actually getting into the paint, and doing more than just dribbling at the top of the key and passing laterally.  Derrick attacked the rim, made a few baskets, and when he didn't he drew help which further opened up some of the perimeter game.

I'm not sure there is 1 thing Jake Thomas does better than Todd.  If we continue to get the same caliber of point guard play from Derrick, things will only get better when both Jake and Todd are on the floor with him.  Todd has a ton of game, and to think he's been the problem with what's ailed this team is ridiculous - he's the leading scorer on the team and his shooting percentages are among the best on the team.

It all comes down to Point Guard play....tonight was a step in the right direction and I've been brutal on Derrick.

Those weren't the same looks Jake has been getting all year. They actually ran him off screens effectively for a quicker catch and shoot.

There are a few things Jake does better than Todd. He takes better shots typically and he plays within the system on both ends of the floor better.

Now, I don't think Jake is more talented than Todd, but he might just be a better fit for this team. If Todd puts everything together and plays consistent team ball on both ends, he will be much better and more valuable than Jake. Quite frankly, I'm starting to lose faith that Todd will ever do this.

[wadesworld]

Todd would have been a big help on offense in the first half which as you said you didn't see.  A lot of guys seemed afraid to shoot, something that was remedied at halftime.  I can see no reason to think that a guy who was admittedly pressing when others couldn't or wouldn't step it up earlier than the second half of tonight's game couldn't be more effective when his teammates aren't standing around hoping for him to save the day.

The problem I have with this is that the other guys don't even get an opportunity to shoot the ball when Todd is in the game. Todd's either shooting the ball or he picked up his dribble looking to shoot and has absolutely no chance to get a shot up so his only option is to pass it back out and the offense has completely stalled.

So let me get this straight - Jake Thomas finally hits the same looks he's been getting all year - and now that is the result of Todd not being on the floor?  

Tonight's large improvement was a complete result of Derrick Wilson actually getting into the paint, and doing more than just dribbling at the top of the key and passing laterally.  Derrick attacked the rim, made a few baskets, and when he didn't he drew help which further opened up some of the perimeter game.

I'm not sure there is 1 thing Jake Thomas does better than Todd.  If we continue to get the same caliber of point guard play from Derrick, things will only get better when both Jake and Todd are on the floor with him.  Todd has a ton of game, and to think he's been the problem with what's ailed this team is ridiculous - he's the leading scorer on the team and his shooting percentages are among the best on the team.

It all comes down to Point Guard play....tonight was a step in the right direction and I've been brutal on Derrick.

How often did Derrick attack the rim before passing the ball tonight? Not much. It was always after a pass, then he swung over to the wing and got it back, and then had the ball passed back to him there where a screen was set for him and be attacked from there. Do me a favor and count the number of times Todd passes the ball the next game he plays in. I'm not even talking passing it just for the purpose of getting a guy a shot. I'm talking even if he catches an outlet pass and passes it at some point that possession or just catches the ball on the wing in what would seem like a chance to just make the next pass and then move off the ball. Guaranteed he has many more shot attempts than total passes. Derrick doesn't get the chance to attack if he passes it off. Jake doesn't have time to run off a screen and catch it in rhythm with Mayo in. The offense completely stops.

IF Mayo played within the offense and there was no step down in ball movement and players moving off of the ball there's no doubt he'd be a HUGE asset to the offense, one of the 2 best offensive players. But it does not happen that way. Ever.

[JTBMU7]

Or how about this... Todd's absence for this game allowed D Wilson ans JT to have breakout games. The team is better overall with him, but the confidence gained by those two guys (and J3) will only help in the long run.... Fair?

[NotAnAlum]

Agree with Ners its all about PG play.  Even though Derrick got the shot blocked at the end of the game at least he took it to the hoop and didn't play around at the 3 point line looking for someone to hand off to.  Now he needs to be a little more crafty either shielding his shot with his body to avoid the block (or get fouled) or being a little more "head up" so he can dish for the easy layup (look at how many times late in the game the ASU PG drove the lane and ended up with a layup by someone else).  However the key is you can't do any of that if you are afraid to drive into the paint.
Another thing is it sure does change the offense when someone like Jake gets hot from 3.  All the sudden the other team is way out of position by having to fly out to the three, hedge screens, there just seems so much more room to operate and so many more options.
I'm much more pleased in this game even though we lost than the other 3 games we won.

[brewcity77]

Todd can definitely be selfish and has a tendency to force things, especially if shots aren't falling. That said, I still think in the long run we're a better team with him. Guessing he'll be back Thursday or Friday, but if he isn't, a week without him for the offense to get some flow might be beneficial, then bring Todd back when everyone is playing well. He's still our most talented experienced wing player.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Todd can definitely be selfish and has a tendency to force things, especially if shots aren't falling. That said, I still think in the long run we're a better team with him. Guessing he'll be back Thursday or Friday, but if he isn't, a week without him for the offense to get some flow might be beneficial, then bring Todd back when everyone is playing well. He's still our most talented experienced wing player.

+1

He's talented. MU needs him.

[MUSF]

+1

He's talented. MU needs him.

So was the guy in your avatar pic... we don't always need talented.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

So was the guy in your avatar pic... we don't always need talented.

I'll admit that I'm not always thrilled with Todd's shot selection, but that doesn't mean he's not a valuable member of the team.

He's a good player. He's not a star. He's not all-conf. He's just a solid player. .

 

[NersEllenson]

The problem I have with this is that the other guys don't even get an opportunity to shoot the ball when Todd is in the game. Todd's either shooting the ball or he picked up his dribble looking to shoot and has absolutely no chance to get a shot up so his only option is to pass it back out and the offense has completely stalled.

How often did Derrick attack the rim before passing the ball tonight? Not much. It was always after a pass, then he swung over to the wing and got it back, and then had the ball passed back to him there where a screen was set for him and be attacked from there. Do me a favor and count the number of times Todd passes the ball the next game he plays in. I'm not even talking passing it just for the purpose of getting a guy a shot. I'm talking even if he catches an outlet pass and passes it at some point that possession or just catches the ball on the wing in what would seem like a chance to just make the next pass and then move off the ball. Guaranteed he has many more shot attempts than total passes. Derrick doesn't get the chance to attack if he passes it off. Jake doesn't have time to run off a screen and catch it in rhythm with Mayo in. The offense completely stops.

IF Mayo played within the offense and there was no step down in ball movement and players moving off of the ball there's no doubt he'd be a HUGE asset to the offense, one of the 2 best offensive players. But it does not happen that way. Ever.

Todd's an F'in shooting guard - he's supposed to shoot the f'in basketball.  Did you like how Jake was confident with his shooting tonight - load and fire.  Todd had 4 assists against UNH.  I believe Todd has 8 assists on the year.  On a team with the offensive challenges MU has had - what the hell do you want your best shooting guard to do?  Never shoot?  Todd passes the ball plenty.  Remember Todd is practically the only MU player that can create his own shot, get to the point without a ball screen - Buzz wants paint touches...Todd being aggressive into the lane is what Buzz wants.  Yes, sometimes that can result in a bad shot, but there are plenty of cases where Todd pulls up from 10-15 feet and knocks down the midrange shot.

Tonight was WAY better because Derrick Wilson didn't play a scared point guard...he was aggressive and assertive, and its what this team needed.  He was a much more active penetrator tonight - helped by the fact we ran a lot more ball screens for him - something we hadn't been doing a lot in the first few games.

But yeah...our leading scorer, shooting 3rd on the team in shooting percentage behind Gardner and Otule, shooting 84% from the line...we're better off without him.  Embarrassing.

[teamdee]

It's a process.

[CTWarrior]

Look, a big part of our success last night on offense is that we played a crappy defensive team.  They had the big guy in the middle who was an excellent intimidator, but the rest of their defense was porous.  They are an excellent offensive team, though.  ASU should be fun for their fans this season.

That said, if Mayo played tonight, Thomas never has his hot streak because he wouldn't have gotten so many minutes as he was largely ineffective once again in the first half.  I still think Mayo is a necessary scoring option when we play the better defensive teams, but I agree with those who hope that his absence ultimately resulted in a confidence boost for DeWilson and Jake Thomas and JJJ.

[MarsupialMadness]

We will need Todd Mayo down the stretch.  We could have used him in the last seconds of game last night perhaps.  I think he can generate a better shot that the one Thomas took.  Todd is the X-factor to this team.

[GGGG]

The only problem with Todd is that he occasionally has poor shot selection and can be a ball stopper.

Other than that, he is a valuable member of the team for all the reasons described.  It is silly to think that the team is better without him.  Because Jake isn't always going to shoot like he did last night...and when JJJ shows more on tape, high level programs are going to figure out how to defend him.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think Mayo may have added more from the bench for THIS game and this game ONLY.

He was the only one early in the season who was playing offense without fear. He needed to play that role. I think taking him out forced others to step up and play that role. And forutnately, it seems like the entire team stepped up. I think we can add Mayo back in and keep the others fearless.