MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on March 05, 2016, 04:00:14 PM
-
1. Take out the bookends of the Iowa and today's Butler game, and this team competed hard.
2. I had 14 wins predicted. This team got to 19. Haanif, Traci, and Henry were all better than I expected.
3. Young team = turnover prone. That was this team's biggest weakness. Travel calls, charging calls, (I'm going to say it anyway) no respect calls.
4. The rebounding improved as the conference season progressed.
5. Team defense improved as the season went on. Still not great, still not as consistent as anybody would want. But there were stretches of solid defense.
6. Saw improvement by Luke, Henry, JJ, Traci, Heldt, Haanif. Duane spun his wheels and Sandy regressed.
7. Everybody needs to get into the weight room. Watching our team get manhandled on a regular basis is frustrating.
8. The team was among the youngest in D1. Any team this young is likely to be inconsistent. We saw it all year. But unless you are just a complete negative Nancy, it is clear that there is talent and that there was progress. I hope everybody, the coaches included, see what they have to do to be a top tier Big East team.
If I was giving a letter grade to the team as a whole for the season as a whole, I would give a B.
-
But Wally gets an A+++++++
-
Next year I think will prove you right. Except it will be harder to have a better record if Henry Ellenson leaves for the NBA. It makes sense he will leave.economics of it all. Its a better draft situation this year than next. Money in the pocket. But maybe its good for the rest of them to have more responsibility.
Can they make the big dance without Ellenson?
-
Good assessment Tower. I think it's easy to get an unfair take on this team by reading these boards too much. Some good games and growth throughout the year. May be tough without HE but I think we are on a good path.
-
I really like our team. I love Wojo's recruiting. But, where is our defense? Butler shot open shots all game long. Where was the game coaching?
-
I'm kind of glad it's over.
-
Just a random observation .. was just looking at how MU did against the spread. (Yes, yes, we know that's a Vegas number to balance out bettors.)
Vegas had us favored in 14 games (well, 15 as there wasn't a line for the Maine game.)
In the 15 we were favored, we won 12, blowing 3.
In the 16 we were dogs, we upset 7 games with wins.
Lost 3 games we shouldn't have .. but won 7 we also shouldn't have won.
.. I'd previously wrote we'd go 2-7 versus the top half of the BE, 5-4 vs. the bottom half.
Turned out 3-6 top, 5-4 bottom. Pretty close, slight over-achievement.
.. As for the future? Not super optimistic for next year. This year, we were RPI 105 .. next year, I could see us improving to the 70s, but that's about it. If HE is back, maybe RPI 40s.
-
The BEAST is tough, but the clear goal was .500 in the league and Wojo has stated this. Don't want to be too tough on the team because there was huge growth but the goal was not achieved.
I think the BEAST tournament will play out as per the seeds so we'll have 2 more games with Henry, and that's all. Let's enjoy these last two games!
-
Just a random observation .. was just looking at how MU did against the spread. (Yes, yes, we know that's a Vegas number to balance out bettors.)
Vegas had us favored in 14 games (well, 15 as there wasn't a line for the Maine game.)
In the 15 we were favored, we won 12, blowing 3.
In the 16 we were dogs, we upset 7 games with wins.
Lost 3 games we shouldn't have .. but won 7 we also shouldn't have won.
.. I'd previously wrote we'd go 2-7 versus the top half of the BE, 5-4 vs. the bottom half.
Turned out 3-6 top, 5-4 bottom. Pretty close, slight over-achievement.
.. As for the future? Not super optimistic for next year. This year, we were RPI 105 .. next year, I could see us improving to the 70s, but that's about it. If HE is back, maybe RPI 40s.
I largely agree with your assessment, but am about 20 RPI points more bullish than you for next year, with or without Henry. Always depends on scheduling.
I think we are a bubble team without Henry next year and a top 20 team with him.
-
Good points, Tower. Hard to argue against any of them.
One thing that disappoints me is that this squad really became a 6-man team about halfway through the Big East season. It was today's starting lineup and Duane. We need more contributors to be a top-tier Big East team. Wojo has two (maybe three if HE goes pro) scholarships to use. He needs to find more talent. And, MU needs Amin and Heldt to make a nice progression this offseason.
-
- Second best eFG% team since the Midgets. Cheatham will be a stud.
- Worst rebounding team in at least 15 years. Need to correct that. Missed Teve.
- Played too fast and too loose at the guard position. Haanif is not a PG, but Traci looks like he is the guy.
- This roster was not built to be physically Big East ready. A bigger if for next year too as it stands today.
- Hank lived up to his billing. He will be missed.
- J3 most improved. Needs to play every possession on D
- Other freshmen played like freshmen but showed signs
- Luke, Du, Sandy, and JJJ (earlier) were shrinking violets at times, and SOTG at others. Need consistency and strength.
Grade C: At this point, out of NIT. Saw progression and growth in last quarter of season. Roster was built for finesse in a physical league. Depth hurt with so many youngsters so whiffing on graduate big body transfers hurt when Teve left that would have protected Luke and Henry, and helped us on boards. That said, Wojo is 4 out and 1 in on offense, and I think that scheme hurt MU on the O boards more than anything. With such poor offensive rebounding to go with all the turnovers, this team gave back too many possessions. The shooting was better than us fans have seen, and so generally has the defense. Good road wins for the Thanksgiving tournament and Madison. Not as good at home as we needed to be. Growing pains gave us high and lows, but good memories. We get a reset here in NYC.
-
This team can be better next year but I fear it looks a lot like this year without a stud rebounder. Go wojo - next years a big one.
-
Four BE wins last year, eight this (should have nine with Depaul). Getting swept though by Nova, Creighton, SH and Xavier not good.
Henry exceeded expectations of his high school career and will probably be second/third in national freshman of the year behind Ingram or Jaylen Brown. (Simmons ineligible). Thank you Henry for coming to MU.
Cheatham will be very good. With JJJ, it was as though someone flicked a switch and has played tremendous down the stretch. Something going on with Duane, he doesn't seem the same, but he does have an aggressive mode. Just limit those silly turnovers and up his free throw percentage. Fischer, well the foul issue, but could the staff please have him shoot a straight shot as opposed to a hook shot every time. Don't understand it.
Carter played as a freshman does, is much better when he slows things down abit. Calm, Traci, calm.
Cohen had his BE issues, prior to to today his minutes were minimal and don't have any clue about what his role will be next year.
For next year, Henry will probably be gone, can't turn down 10 million plus. He was fun to watch his ability as a 6ft 11 kid with that talent. Rowsey, if what Wojo said of him, may see a lot of playing time and lets see how that effects Duane. Cheatham should be #2 guard with Duane backing. If Howard does commit to MU, how does that effect Carter's mindset about basically being recruited over. If Howard does come, it will be quite the fight over the PG position, which is a good thing. Cheatham, Duane, Rowsey, Carter and Howard would be nice competition in practice.
For next year, the problem will be with a PF or at least a well built SF. If Fischer gets in foul trouble, that leaves Heldt, who also has had issues with fouls and skinny JJJ and Cohen. Been brought up numerous times, so everyone knows that is in all likelihood a staff priority. Lets see how it works out.
Next year the "young, inexperienced, etc" excuses cannot be used. SH basically started five true sophomores and had a great year.
MU will have:
Fischer as senior, five years out of high school.
JJJ as a senior
Duane as a junior, four years out of high school
Rowsey as a junior, four years out of high school
Cohen as a junior
Cheatham, Carter, Heldt and Sacar with 30 plus Div I games.
Anytime you doubled your BE wins and should have been even in BE play, its a big step forward. Couple of tough home losses, but exceeded expectations in my view. Now go and beat St. Johns and get that #20 win. Henry should be pumped up, but a loss would be depressing to say the least.
-
Just saying....Shaka would have had this team in the NCAA's. That's how one thing can change an entire program. This conference has been no help either. I said at the time, it would be the death knell for this program. They have done worse in a lessor conference than they did in the old Big East. Many of you will say "coaching change". Okay, but WHY did we lose Buzz?? Because of the conference. he said it himself. There has been no team in this current Big east more hurt by this conference change than has MU. Two sweet 16's, an Elite 8, 7 consecutive post season bids, and a switch to a conference that will now become year three of no post season at all(likely), and no NCAA's. Has ANY major program fallen so fast, so hard as has MU?? From being THIS close to breaking through into elite status, to being irrelevant in College hoops?? It's really and truly sad.
-
Didn't get swept by Creighton. The other 3 were the top three in the league.
Four BE wins last year, eight this (should have nine with Depaul). Getting swept though by Nova, Creighton, SH and Xavier not good.
Henry exceeded expectations of his high school career and will probably be second/third in national freshman of the year behind Ingram or Jaylen Brown. (Simmons ineligible). Thank you Henry for coming to MU.
Cheatham will be very good. With JJJ, it was as though someone flicked a switch and has played tremendous down the stretch. Something going on with Duane, he doesn't seem the same, but he does have an aggressive mode. Just limit those silly turnovers and up his free throw percentage. Fischer, well the foul issue, but could the staff please have him shoot a straight shot as opposed to a hook shot every time. Don't understand it.
Carter played as a freshman does, is much better when he slows things down abit. Calm, Traci, calm.
Cohen had his BE issues, prior to to today his minutes were minimal and don't have any clue about what his role will be next year.
For next year, Henry will probably be gone, can't turn down 10 million plus. He was fun to watch his ability as a 6ft 11 kid with that talent. Rowsey, if what Wojo said of him, may see a lot of playing time and lets see how that effects Duane. Cheatham should be #2 guard with Duane backing. If Howard does commit to MU, how does that effect Carter's mindset about basically being recruited over. If Howard does come, it will be quite the fight over the PG position, which is a good thing. Cheatham, Duane, Rowsey, Carter and Howard would be nice competition in practice.
For next year, the problem will be with a PF or at least a well built SF. If Fischer gets in foul trouble, that leaves Heldt, who also has had issues with fouls and skinny JJJ and Cohen. Been brought up numerous times, so everyone knows that is in all likelihood a staff priority. Lets see how it works out.
Next year the "young, inexperienced, etc" excuses cannot be used. SH basically started five true sophomores and had a great year.
MU will have:
Fischer as senior, five years out of high school.
JJJ as a senior
Duane as a junior, four years out of high school
Rowsey as a junior, four years out of high school
Cohen as a junior
Cheatham, Carter, Heldt and Sacar with 30 plus Div I games.
Anytime you doubled your BE wins and should have been even in BE play, its a big step forward. Couple of tough home losses, but exceeded expectations in my view. Now go and beat St. Johns and get that #20 win. Henry should be pumped up, but a loss would be depressing to say the least.
-
OK, I'm really down about this team. Probably the result of a really crappy game today, but I think we're not as better from last year as we think we are.
General comments:
1) Henry was a savior. But what Henry wasn't was a Jabari Parker, who could take us to the next level. Saw too much in Henry that suggested he still thought he was in the WIAA and could put the team on his back and solve the problems we had. He just wasn't quite to where we hoped he would be.
2) I'm really down on Luke. I think he could be a stud, but I think my cocker spaniel has a better idea of how to play college defense than Luke does. He spends way too much time on the bench. Period. You solve the defense and the fouls and you are pro caliber. You don't and you're working for a land developer in Menomonee Falls when you graduate.
3) JJJ is a mystery. There are days when he shows up and is the recruit we thought he could be coming out of Memphis. There are days when we think he could not hit the barn from 1 foot away. Which JJJ shows up next year will decide if we're real or a mirage.
4) Cheatham and Carter are the bones of this team. If I graded them, I would give them a "B" and think they're our future. Inconsistent but I can forgive that because they are freshmen.
5) Duane -- yikes. Not sure with Rouser (SP I am sure) and Hauser coming in how Duane fits with this team. This will be an interesting off-season question.
6) Sandy -- The game is not there. Maybe time to move on.
7) Anim -- I have no idea what is going on here. There's something in practice that's got to be discouraging Wojo. I would have expected to see a lot more of him as the season went on.
Heldt is the only incomplete I would give. I think he has shown a lot growth but he has a long way to go.
Overall, this is a D+ team. Today was depressing and I just think the overall lack of maturity on it was overt and troublesome. I'm really worried about next year if/when Henry does not return.
-
Just saying....Shaka would have had this team in the NCAA's. That's how one thing can change an entire program. This conference has been no help either. I said at the time, it would be the death knell for this program. They have done worse in a lessor conference than they did in the old Big East. Many of you will say "coaching change". Okay, but WHY did we lose Buzz?? Because of the conference. he said it himself. There has been no team in this current Big east more hurt by this conference change than has MU. Two sweet 16's, an Elite 8, 7 consecutive post season bids, and a switch to a conference that will now become year three of no post season at all(likely), and no NCAA's. Has ANY major program fallen so fast, so hard as has MU?? From being THIS close to breaking through into elite status, to being irrelevant in College hoops?? It's really and truly sad.
Don't be an ass.
-
Up:
1) Freshmen proved themselves worthy and full of potential. They will give us a solid foundation to build on for the next three years.
2) JJJ is starting to turn into the player we hoped he'd be.
3) Wojo has improved as a coach.
Down:
1) The best player on our team is not likely to return next year.
2) We don't seem to have a discernible home court advantage.
3) We don't seem to have the same scrappy, chip-on-the-shoulder edge under Wojo we got used to seeing consistently under TC & Bert. Saw it sometimes but not often enough. Maybe it's because Wojo came from a program that had little to prove (and thus no reason to have a chip on their shoulder) but this one concerns me.
Ultimately, while I'm pleased with the general upward trajectory of the program, I can't shake the feeling that the conference season could have--and should have--gone better.
-
Season is not over yet. I will be satisfied if we can get it to 20 wins. That optic is very helpful.
Henry had a great season and I enjoyed every second of his time with us. Hopefully he will stay another year with this brother, but I have come to the realization he is most likely going to be a high draft choice and common sense says he will take the money.
Luke is a formidable player if he can stay out of foul trouble.
Haanif is an excellent player and still has upside .
JJJ finally broke through and showed his incredible talent.
I think Duane has some kind of nagging injury. He has incredible stones though and I am glad he is on our team.
Traci has the fundamentals necessary to compete at a high level and plenty of room to grow.
Sandy hit a wall hopefully he can put this year behind him.
Wally did well in his role.
Matt made steady progress throughout the season.
Sacar should get some more time next year to show us what he can do.
Looking forward to Rowsey next year. He should be able to contribute immediately.
Wojo and Company have room to grow but heading in right direction . They are very good recruiters . Still learning how to make the proper decisions in the games. Bill Parcells says you are what your record says you are and I agree with that with respect to Wojo.
I enjoyed the season and am hoping we can either win BET or make it into NIT.
-
The "unleash Wally" posters are the biggest idiots amongst our fan base, nice player in his current role but that's it. On the whole; not a bad season, competed hard and ultimately headed in the right direction.
-
OK, I'm really down about this team. Probably the result of a really crappy game today, but I think we're not as better from last year as we think we are.
General comments:
1) Henry was a savior. But what Henry wasn't was a Jabari Parker, who could take us to the next level. Saw too much in Henry that suggested he still thought he was in the WIAA and could put the team on his back and solve the problems we had. He just wasn't quite to where we hoped he would be.
2) I'm really down on Luke. I think he could be a stud, but I think my cocker spaniel has a better idea of how to play college defense than Luke does. He spends way too much time on the bench. Period. You solve the defense and the fouls and you are pro caliber. You don't and you're working for a land developer in Menomonee Falls when you graduate.
3) JJJ is a mystery. There are days when he shows up and is the recruit we thought he could be coming out of Memphis. There are days when we think he could not hit the barn from 1 foot away. Which JJJ shows up next year will decide if we're real or a mirage.
4) Cheatham and Carter are the bones of this team. If I graded them, I would give them a "B" and think they're our future. Inconsistent but I can forgive that because they are freshmen.
5) Duane -- yikes. Not sure with Rouser (SP I am sure) and Hauser coming in how Duane fits with this team. This will be an interesting off-season question.
6) Sandy -- The game is not there. Maybe time to move on.
7) Anim -- I have no idea what is going on here. There's something in practice that's got to be discouraging Wojo. I would have expected to see a lot more of him as the season went on.
Heldt is the only incomplete I would give. I think he has shown a lot growth but he has a long way to go.
Overall, this is a D+ team. Today was depressing and I just think the overall lack of maturity on it was overt and troublesome. I'm really worried about next year if/when Henry does not return.
I pray to God this was the bottle speaking
-
id have to guess that there would have to be more than 1 bottle for some of those
-
Losing sucks. But it says nothing about us next year. One game means Jack crape. Got to look at the body of work for the whole season. Or body of work is real good.
-
We're what, the eight youngest team in the COUNTRY, and it's a mystery to some here our inconsistencies, both collectively and individually?!?! And then we're ready to completely give up on some guys already!
You win with juniors and seniors who are good, exceptions being the blue bloods. We don't have the experience or depth yet, that simple. The arrow is still pointing up for this program, whether Henry returns or not.
-
.. As for the future? Not super optimistic for next year. This year, we were RPI 105 .. next year, I could see us improving to the 70s, but that's about it. If HE is back, maybe RPI 40s.
Difficult to project RPI when you don't know the schedule, a''inal? WHO you play and especially their win-loss record excluding games against you, plays an enormous part.
-
Just saying....Shaka would have had this team in the NCAA's. That's how one thing can change an entire program. This conference has been no help either. I said at the time, it would be the death knell for this program. They have done worse in a lessor conference than they did in the old Big East. Many of you will say "coaching change". Okay, but WHY did we lose Buzz?? Because of the conference. he said it himself. There has been no team in this current Big east more hurt by this conference change than has MU. Two sweet 16's, an Elite 8, 7 consecutive post season bids, and a switch to a conference that will now become year three of no post season at all(likely), and no NCAA's. Has ANY major program fallen so fast, so hard as has MU?? From being THIS close to breaking through into elite status, to being irrelevant in College hoops?? It's really and truly sad.
Of all the stupid on this board this might take the cake.
Shaka wouldn't have had Hank, Haanif, or Carter at MU. Imagine this team without those 3. YIKES!
Bazz had a season in the new BE...and was worse than we were this year.
Four BE wins last year, eight this (should have nine with Depaul). Getting swept though by Nova, Creighton, SH and Xavier not good.
Henry exceeded expectations of his high school career and will probably be second/third in national freshman of the year behind Ingram or Jaylen Brown. (Simmons ineligible). Thank you Henry for coming to MU.
Cheatham will be very good. With JJJ, it was as though someone flicked a switch and has played tremendous down the stretch. Something going on with Duane, he doesn't seem the same, but he does have an aggressive mode. Just limit those silly turnovers and up his free throw percentage. Fischer, well the foul issue, but could the staff please have him shoot a straight shot as opposed to a hook shot every time. Don't understand it.
Carter played as a freshman does, is much better when he slows things down abit. Calm, Traci, calm.
Cohen had his BE issues, prior to to today his minutes were minimal and don't have any clue about what his role will be next year.
For next year, Henry will probably be gone, can't turn down 10 million plus. He was fun to watch his ability as a 6ft 11 kid with that talent. Rowsey, if what Wojo said of him, may see a lot of playing time and lets see how that effects Duane. Cheatham should be #2 guard with Duane backing. If Howard does commit to MU, how does that effect Carter's mindset about basically being recruited over. If Howard does come, it will be quite the fight over the PG position, which is a good thing. Cheatham, Duane, Rowsey, Carter and Howard would be nice competition in practice.
For next year, the problem will be with a PF or at least a well built SF. If Fischer gets in foul trouble, that leaves Heldt, who also has had issues with fouls and skinny JJJ and Cohen. Been brought up numerous times, so everyone knows that is in all likelihood a staff priority. Lets see how it works out.
Next year the "young, inexperienced, etc" excuses cannot be used. SH basically started five true sophomores and had a great year.
MU will have:
Fischer as senior, five years out of high school.
JJJ as a senior
Duane as a junior, four years out of high school
Rowsey as a junior, four years out of high school
Cohen as a junior
Cheatham, Carter, Heldt and Sacar with 30 plus Div I games.
Anytime you doubled your BE wins and should have been even in BE play, its a big step forward. Couple of tough home losses, but exceeded expectations in my view. Now go and beat St. Johns and get that #20 win. Henry should be pumped up, but a loss would be depressing to say the least.
This is Luke's 3rd year in college. Next year will be his fourth.
And it's a lot, lot easier to defend a face up shot than it is a hook shot from a 7 footer.
-
Difficult to project RPI when you don't know the schedule, a''inal? WHO you play and especially their win-loss record excluding games against you, plays an enormous part.
We know 19 of the ~31 opponents for next year. The other dozen .. same random cupcakes, maybe 20% better because it can't get worse.
(hmm .. are we doing a preseason tournament?)
-
if you told me:
1.Henry would be much better than advertised, the second or third best freshman in the country and a likely top 5 pick in the 2016 NBA draft
2.JJJ would shoot 48% from 3 and improve the rest of his game immensely and
3.Cheatham would play 28 mpg and shine on both ends
I would have predicted 25 wins and a top 4 seed.
But:
1.The league was tougher than expected
2,Duane and Sandy were major disappointments and
3.Luke was a minor one
A reminder to the "seashell and balloons" crowd who tout our youth as a reason to think we'll be great next year - Henry (our best player by miles and miles) is, for all intents and purposes, a senior this year. He won't be back.
-
Just saying....Shaka would have had this team in the NCAA's. That's how one thing can change an entire program. This conference has been no help either. I said at the time, it would be the death knell for this program. They have done worse in a lessor conference than they did in the old Big East. Many of you will say "coaching change". Okay, but WHY did we lose Buzz?? Because of the conference. he said it himself. There has been no team in this current Big east more hurt by this conference change than has MU. Two sweet 16's, an Elite 8, 7 consecutive post season bids, and a switch to a conference that will now become year three of no post season at all(likely), and no NCAA's. Has ANY major program fallen so fast, so hard as has MU?? From being THIS close to breaking through into elite status, to being irrelevant in College hoops?? It's really and truly sad.
LOL.
My God....yeah, the conference has prevented great recruiting classes from coming in. WRONG.
The conference is ranked 4th in the country.
Buzz left a team devoid of key parts and some not so great players. He was not a very good high school recruiter for MU, with a few rare exceptions. MU is progressing fine, put down the cocktails. MU is in the best conference they could POSSIBLY be in.
Buzz left for a lot of reasons and MU was not the least bit sad to see him go for a VARIETY of reasons. He can do what he wants to do without anyone giving a rip now....good for him.
-
I pray to God this was the bottle speaking
I pray as well. People here are so fickle and ride like a roller coaster, it's amazing to watch.
-
I pray as well. People here are so fickle and ride like a roller coaster, it's amazing to watch.
+2
and big props to Tower for really bringing his A game in March. good work and insight.
-
OK, at the risk of taking a dark position even darker, here's a question I would pose:
If you subbed out the Gramblings, Maines and other cupcakes with 50 to 150 RPI teams, would our record be any better than last year's? I don't know but I have some serious doubts. Yet, those are the teams we have to play to boost our RPI and have a shot at the tournament next year.
Those of you who think there's multiple bottles involved, God love you, I wish there were. But what I saw today just simply is a head scratcher. We talk about inexperience and having a youthful team. We see one half of absolutely brilliant basketball this past week against Georgetown. Then we go to Indianapolis and play a game that looked and feels like our early season game against Iowa.
And we lost to DePaul. DePaul, for heaven's sake. At home, no less!
Unlike an earlier poster, I didn't enjoy this year as much as I would have liked. I know the guys played hard, but I don't think we played smart as often as we should have. Our center was routinely in foul trouble, forcing our all-world power forward to often play out of position. It was so obvious that I was about to begin taking bets on when our center would go to the bench with two fouls. We couldn't shoot and still too often thought we could hit 3s to get ourselves back in games. We'll "get it" at some point but I think that "some point" will be next year sometime.
Conclusion: The core of a winner is here. We're better off than we were a year ago because the core of the future is here. But, particularly if Henry ends up leaving -- as most Scoopers think he will -- we've got a long way to go. The Hillbilly really messed us up.
-
What if we pee down our collective legs vs St. John's, hey?
-
OK, at the risk of taking a dark position even darker, here's a question I would pose:
If you subbed out the Gramblings, Maines and other cupcakes with 50 to 150 RPI teams, would our record be any better than last year's? I don't know but I have some serious doubts. Yet, those are the teams we have to play to boost our RPI and have a shot at the tournament next year.
Those of you who think there's multiple bottles involved, God love you, I wish there were. But what I saw today just simply is a head scratcher. We talk about inexperience and having a youthful team. We see one half of absolutely brilliant basketball this past week against Georgetown. Then we go to Indianapolis and play a game that looked and feels like our early season game against Iowa.
And we lost to DePaul. DePaul, for heaven's sake. At home, no less!
Unlike an earlier poster, I didn't enjoy this year as much as I would have liked. I know the guys played hard, but I don't think we played smart as often as we should have. Our center was routinely in foul trouble, forcing our all-world power forward to often play out of position. It was so obvious that I was about to begin taking bets on when our center would go to the bench with two fouls. We couldn't shoot and still too often thought we could hit 3s to get ourselves back in games. We'll "get it" at some point but I think that "some point" will be next year sometime.
Conclusion: The core of a winner is here. We're better off than we were a year ago because the core of the future is here. But, particularly if Henry ends up leaving -- as most Scoopers think he will -- we've got a long way to go. The Hillbilly really messed us up.
We won 8 games in a tougher BE this year than the one we won 4 games in last year.
-
OK, at the risk of taking a dark position even darker, here's a question I would pose:
If you subbed out the Gramblings, Maines and other cupcakes with 50 to 150 RPI teams, would our record be any better than last year's? I don't know but I have some serious doubts. Yet, those are the teams we have to play to boost our RPI and have a shot at the tournament next year.
Those of you who think there's multiple bottles involved, God love you, I wish there were. But what I saw today just simply is a head scratcher. We talk about inexperience and having a youthful team. We see one half of absolutely brilliant basketball this past week against Georgetown. Then we go to Indianapolis and play a game that looked and feels like our early season game against Iowa.
And we lost to DePaul. DePaul, for heaven's sake. At home, no less!
Unlike an earlier poster, I didn't enjoy this year as much as I would have liked. I know the guys played hard, but I don't think we played smart as often as we should have. Our center was routinely in foul trouble, forcing our all-world power forward to often play out of position. It was so obvious that I was about to begin taking bets on when our center would go to the bench with two fouls. We couldn't shoot and still too often thought we could hit 3s to get ourselves back in games. We'll "get it" at some point but I think that "some point" will be next year sometime.
Conclusion: The core of a winner is here. We're better off than we were a year ago because the core of the future is here. But, particularly if Henry ends up leaving -- as most Scoopers think he will -- we've got a long way to go. The Hillbilly really messed us up.
Yes, the record would still be better. The Big East top to bottom was roughly the same as last year, and we won more games in the Big East. We won at Wisconsin. Etc, etc. This team is better than last year, and I honestly don't know how anyone can debate this.
Last year we had to rely on Matt friggin Carlino to have great games. Think about it. Yes, we rely a lot of Henry this year, but at least we're talking about a future NBA player not a guy that has been at 50 schools the last 10 years.
-
OK, at the risk of taking a dark position even darker, here's a question I would pose:
If you subbed out the Gramblings, Maines and other cupcakes with 50 to 150 RPI teams, would our record be any better than last year's? I don't know but I have some serious doubts. Yet, those are the teams we have to play to boost our RPI and have a shot at the tournament next year.
Let's see:
2014-15
vs. RPI 1-50: 1-15
vs. RPI 51-100: 3-1 (3 wins were #93 Seton Hall x2 and #99 Tennessee)
vs. RPI 101-150: 2-1
vs. RPI 150+: 7-2
2015-2016
vs. RPI 1-50: 4-8
vs. RPI 51-100: 2-1
vs. RPI 101-150: 2-2
vs. RPI 150+: 11-1
So to answer your question. Yes. We did much better this season minus the cupcakes. Its one loss, try to see beyond the small picture.
-
OK, at the risk of taking a dark position even darker, here's a question I would pose:
If you subbed out the Gramblings, Maines and other cupcakes with 50 to 150 RPI teams, would our record be any better than last year's? I don't know but I have some serious doubts. Yet, those are the teams we have to play to boost our RPI and have a shot at the tournament next year.
Those of you who think there's multiple bottles involved, God love you, I wish there were. But what I saw today just simply is a head scratcher. We talk about inexperience and having a youthful team. We see one half of absolutely brilliant basketball this past week against Georgetown. Then we go to Indianapolis and play a game that looked and feels like our early season game against Iowa.
And we lost to DePaul. DePaul, for heaven's sake. At home, no less!
Unlike an earlier poster, I didn't enjoy this year as much as I would have liked. I know the guys played hard, but I don't think we played smart as often as we should have. Our center was routinely in foul trouble, forcing our all-world power forward to often play out of position. It was so obvious that I was about to begin taking bets on when our center would go to the bench with two fouls. We couldn't shoot and still too often thought we could hit 3s to get ourselves back in games. We'll "get it" at some point but I think that "some point" will be next year sometime.
Conclusion: The core of a winner is here. We're better off than we were a year ago because the core of the future is here. But, particularly if Henry ends up leaving -- as most Scoopers think he will -- we've got a long way to go. The Hillbilly really messed us up.
This post is wrong on so many levels it is funny. At least get your facts right.
-
We know 19 of the ~31 opponents for next year. The other dozen .. same random cupcakes, maybe 20% better because it can't get worse.
(hmm .. are we doing a preseason tournament?)
This year the issue was the horrid non-conference opponents. We don't know them for next year. You're right in that it can't get much worse -- but I don't know that you factored that in.
At any rate, speaking re: next year on March 5th, RPI is a poor measurement tool.
-
Season is right on the margin, win one in the BET, 20 wins, probable(?) NIT - has been a marginally good season.
Lose to SJU(!) in BET, miss NIT, marginally disappointing season.
Big date in NYC.
-
OK, at the risk of taking a dark position even darker, here's a question I would pose:
If you subbed out the Gramblings, Maines and other cupcakes with 50 to 150 RPI teams, would our record be any better than last year's? I don't know but I have some serious doubts. Yet, those are the teams we have to play to boost our RPI and have a shot at the tournament next year.
If you subbed out the cupcakes for 50 to 150 RPI teams MU would lose mucho revenue by reducing the number of home games due to the need to go to home and away series to schedule such teams. Buy games mean less travel early in the season, and the extra revenue allows MU basketball to go first class, both of which are important recruiting tools.
-
All this sums up the "cup is half full" and the "cup is half empty" points of view. Punctuated, as always, by those rock heads who would never let facts intrude on their preconceived notions.
It strikes me that this talent laden team suffered from "weak team psych syndrome." That is, when the flow of game really went against them (such as the string of calls last night), they seem to lose confidence and stop playing as a team. This could be a factor of youth. It could be a factor of team chemistry, or individual player character. It might also be that they are coached in too structured a manner (over coached).
Regardless of the cup being half full, or empty, rock head comments, youth, or team character, I believe next year will be the proverbial proof in the pudding on the true trend of the Warriors. A trend, by the way, that I believe is clearly in ascendency.
-
LOL.
My God....yeah, the conference has prevented great recruiting classes from coming in. WRONG.
The conference is ranked 4th in the country.
Buzz left a team devoid of key parts and some not so great players. He was not a very good high school recruiter for MU, with a few rare exceptions. MU is progressing fine, put down the cocktails. MU is in the best conference they could POSSIBLY be in.
Buzz left for a lot of reasons and MU was not the least bit sad to see him go for a VARIETY of reasons. He can do what he wants to do without anyone giving a rip now....good for him.
Guru has been bad mouthing the conference since it started.
The problem is the old BE is gone and the new BE is the best possible conference that Marquette can be a member of. Really nothing Marquette can do but get better.
-
Here's something to ponder. Last year at this time Wojo was attempting to find any HS senior he could get to plug in to an essentially empty roster. Sure he has lots more info than we do but he really has to base those decisions off HS performance. This year he knows so very much more.
- pretty darn good idea if he needs a #4 and what that skill set must be.
- SG spot is totally covered for the long haul
- 3 guard covered for next year. Expecting tons from JjJ.
- PG maturing probably at faster pace but signing another stud allows HC to remain exclusively art #2.
- much better handle on true shooting/slashing/scoring ability of each
- Luke to the weight roor
- Sandy to become a defensive specialist if he wants minutes
- etc.
Assuming stability the offseason decision become easier each year. This is no different than building an NFL roster. It takes time.
-
With the talent on this team, they should have been at least fighting for a NCAA Tournament birth.
-
With the talent on this team, they should have been at least fighting for a NCAA Tournament birth.
A freaking men. That's where my disappointment comes in...Should they have been a stone cold lock to start the year like they were in most of Buzz's years?? Absolutely not, but they should have, at worst been heavy in the discussion right now. You had a Freshman who was one of the best in the country, a top 10 recruit, you should, at the very least be in the discussion for the NCAA's this time of year, NOT losing as many home games(over 2 years) that you have, not losing to DuhPaul(ever), Creighton at home, Belmont at home etc. Youth or not, this team underachieved. They werent that young by the end of the year. The "youth" excuse is so weak...did Youth affect Kentucky a couple years ago?? or Duke last year?? Save the "they are blue bloods" that's different argument. Youth is youth..There was enough talent on this team, the fact that they aren't even in the NCAA discussion...that rests in the Head Coach's lap. He can recruit, no doubt about it, but I have seen NOTHING from him that shows me he can Coach yet. He shows no creativity at all...no "wrinkles" in any game plans etc. Pretty stale really. TC and Buzz got creative from game to game depending on the opponent etc. I have seen nothing of that from Wojo.
-
You cannot simply say "youth is youth." More talented youth is more talented. Kentucky and Duke had multiple players that were extremely talented and simply better than the youth Marquette had. And Calipari and K are better coaches than Wojo.
Now I do agree with you that the jury is still out on Wojo. Inexperience can extend to the coach too. So the hope is that the coach, the staff and the team grows. I can see multiple reasons why they will. I can see a few why they may not.
-
With the talent on this team, they should have been at least fighting for a NCAA Tournament birth.
I would say they were fighting...two home losses in the last few seconds and last min...to Depaul and Creighton...the team was fighting in those games. Turn those into wins and we very well be knocking on the door of an NCAA birth.
-
With the talent on this team, they should have been at least fighting for a NCAA Tournament birth.
They are fighting for a birth <sic>
Normally .500 in a conference like this would be right there. Unfortunately the DePaul loss meant no .500. The non-conference schedule stunk, if it hadn't we would be fighting for it.
Season isn't over yet, they are still fighting for a berth
-
A freaking men. That's where my disappointment comes in...Should they have been a stone cold lock to start the year like they were in most of Buzz's years?? Absolutely not, but they should have, at worst been heavy in the discussion right now. You had a Freshman who was one of the best in the country, a top 10 recruit, you should, at the very least be in the discussion for the NCAA's this time of year, NOT losing as many home games(over 2 years) that you have, not losing to DuhPaul(ever), Creighton at home, Belmont at home etc. Youth or not, this team underachieved. They werent that young by the end of the year. The "youth" excuse is so weak...did Youth affect Kentucky a couple years ago?? or Duke last year?? Save the "they are blue bloods" that's different argument. Youth is youth..There was enough talent on this team, the fact that they aren't even in the NCAA discussion...that rests in the Head Coach's lap. He can recruit, no doubt about it, but I have seen NOTHING from him that shows me he can Coach yet. He shows no creativity at all...no "wrinkles" in any game plans etc. Pretty stale really. TC and Buzz got creative from game to game depending on the opponent etc. I have seen nothing of that from Wojo.
So you talk about Buzz and TC being creative, but then say we should never lose to Depaul. You realize Buzz lost to Duhpal with 5 NBA players on his team, 4 of them starters?
Youth is youth...talk about a blanket statement. As for the Henry talk, should the team with the clear best freshman in the country be a slam dunk for the NCAAs...Ben Simmons? They aren't going either. Duke has been down this year, and they have the 2nd best freshman. Do you pay attention to college basketball?
-
With the talent on this team, they should have been at least fighting for a NCAA Tournament birth.
Absolutely. No excuse to be blown out by butler with their talent compared to ours. And please, stop with the frosh excuses. These players have a whole season and an overseas trip experience by now.
-
Absolutely. No excuse to be blown out by butler with their talent compared to ours. And please, stop with the frosh excuses. These players have a whole season and an overseas trip experience by now.
Who on our team is as talented as Kellen Dunham and Roosevelt Jones? They start 2 RS seniors, 1 senior, a RS junior, and a junior. The first player off their bench is a RS senior. This is a team that finished in the top 20 last season. They have more talent than we do. We got blown out on the road. It happens.
Youth is never an excuse. It is a fact. Yes they are a whole season older. Guess who else is a whole season older? Their opponents. We are still the 8th youngest team in the country. If you don't think that's a factor, you are lying to yourself.
-
Absolutely. No excuse to be blown out by butler with their talent compared to ours. And please, stop with the frosh excuses. These players have a whole season and an overseas trip experience by now.
But that also means that players on other teams have even more experience too right?
-
Absolutely. No excuse to be blown out by butler with their talent compared to ours. And please, stop with the frosh excuses. These players have a whole season and an overseas trip experience by now.
It happens. We lost to a NCAA team, in their arena, on senior day.
-
So you talk about Buzz and TC being creative, but then say we should never lose to Depaul. You realize Buzz lost to Duhpal with 5 NBA players on his team, 4 of them starters?
1. Mo Acker and David Cubillan started on that team - neither (to my knowledge) played in the NBA.
2. You brutally attacked Buzz and the team after that game, a common reaction of your "fandom" during the 2nd most successful era in Marquette history. None of us on Scoop will ever forget your "Choking dogs pee down their legs" article you penned for Cracked Sidewalks. Now you preach patience.
3. You thought the "Midgets" who lost to DePaul were devoid of talent - so bad that if Buzz even made the tournament with them he was a miracle worker deserving to be named National Coach of the Year. At least until he did it in spades and got a #6 seed. Now Six years later you're trying to denigrate Buzz for underachieving with a juggernaut loaded with NBA talent. Pitiful and transparently agenda driven. And just the kind of hypocrisy you love to rail against - ironic, hey?
-
Who on our team is as talented as Kellen Dunham and Roosevelt Jones? They start 2 RS seniors, 1 senior, a RS junior, and a junior. The first player off their bench is a RS senior. This is a team that finished in the top 20 last season. They have more talent than we do. We got blown out on the road. It happens.
Youth is never an excuse. It is a fact. Yes they are a whole season older. Guess who else is a whole season older? Their opponents. We are still the 8th youngest team in the country. If you don't think that's a factor, you are lying to yourself.
I agree that Butler is talented and experienced. I wasn't surprised they blew us out.
But "who on our team is as talented as Kellen Dunham or Roosevelt Jones?" You can't possibly be serious. Henry has more talent than those two guys even imagine having.
-
Listen, I think all of us would have been thrilled with a NCAA berth this year - that would have been an "A"
NIT is a "B" - sneaking in as a 6 seed is a "B-"
Missing the NIT with a winning record "C"
Losing record but better than last year "D"
Worse record than last year "F"
Had Wojo earned a "D" or "F" the seat should have been warm THiS YEAR
A "C" and he's looking at a warm seat next year if things don't improve
"B" and I'm happy to give him another year on this trajectory.
Bottom line, this season hasn't been great, hasn't been as good as it could have with this roster, but also could have been a lot worse.
-
With the exception of a half-dozen or so games, I have enjoyed this season.
My wife and I went to Brooklyn and had a blast.
We watched the Wisconsin and @Providence games with large Marquette contingents and enjoyed ourselves immensely.
I liked watching Henry, Haanif and Traci. I liked watching the light bulb go on for JJJ. I thought Wojo improved as a coach. Although Duane drifted at times, he came through big several times and that was of course enjoyable.
Would I have liked more improvement from Duane and Luke and, for that matter, Wojo? Yep. Would I have liked wins against DePaul, Belmont and Creighton (among others)? Yep.
But overall, I enjoyed watching the games and I feel we are on the right path. I agree with a few others who say next year will tell us a lot, but we're still on this year.
I agree with tower and give this team a B. If I'm feeling like a tough grader after watching a bad loss, maybe a B-. If we win a couple of BET games, heck, I might go B+!
I guess I'm just an optimist. Seems a better way to go through life.
-
DePaul 51, Marquette 50
On that team
Lazar Hayward...NBA...started against DePaul
Jimmy Butler....NBA...started against DePaul
DJO....NBA....started against DePaul
Dwight Buycks...NBA....off the bench
Cubillan and Acker were 5 of 7 that game. The four NBA guys were 11 of 31.
I was wrong in saying 5 NBA players and 4 starters. Should have been 4 NBA players, 3 of them starters. We scored 18 points in the second half. DePaul's first Big East win in 25 games. The only lead DePaul had the entire game was with one second left. With that much talent, epic choking dogs. :D
It happens.
-
But that also means that players on other teams have even more experience too right?
Right. But look at our talent compared to butler. And we have an AA coach. So no excuses for that blowout.
-
1. Mo Acker and David Cubillan started on that team - neither (to my knowledge) played in the NBA.
2. You brutally attacked Buzz and the team after that game, a common reaction of your "fandom" during the 2nd most successful era in Marquette history. None of us on Scoop will ever forget your "Choking dogs pee down their legs" article you penned for Cracked Sidewalks. Now you preach patience.
3. You thought the "Midgets" who lost to DePaul were devoid of talent - so bad that if Buzz even made the tournament with them he was a miracle worker deserving to be named National Coach of the Year. At least until he did it in spades and got a #6 seed. Now Six years later you're trying to denigrate Buzz for underachieving with a juggernaut loaded with NBA talent. Pitiful and transparently agenda driven. And just the kind of hypocrisy you love to rail against - ironic, hey?
You completely missed his point on this one
-
DePaul 51, Marquette 50
On that team
Lazar Hayward...NBA...started against DePaul
Jimmy Butler....NBA...started against DePaul
DJO....NBA....started against DePaul
Dwight Buycks...NBA....off the bench
Cubillan and Acker were 5 of 7 that game. The four NBA guys were 11 of 31.
I was wrong in saying 5 NBA players and 4 starters. Should have been 4 NBA players, 3 of them starters. We scored 18 points in the second half. DePaul's first Big East win in 25 games. The only lead DePaul had the entire game was with one second left. With that much talent, epic choking dogs. :D
It happens.
Good lord, that game sucked to be at. DePaul had a 24 game BE loss streak.Tracey Webster was the substitute coach. Stovall hitting one at the end. Many blown chances to go 2-4 in the BE after the loss. I believe this when Scoop crowd-sourced a demand that JFB's scholarship be revoked.
What a great year and coaching job that turned out to be.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/82220402.html?ipad=y
-
We won 8 games in a tougher BE this year than the one we won 4 games in last year.
Until the NCAA tournament is played will not know how tough the Big East was this year.
8 wins on paper is definately an improvement over 4 wins. However, two were against St. John's without their first team freshmen player and one was against DePaul without their best player.
-
But "who on our team is as talented as Kellen Dunham or Roosevelt Jones?" You can't possibly be serious. Henry has more talent than those two guys even imagine having.
Henry has more potential than them combined. Talent right this second? I'd take Jones for sure. Dunham probably not. Youre rightvon that one
-
Fairly or unfairly the frustration factor with this team was super high. I guess we can explain a lot of this with a young team and staff, but that excuse just gets worn out fast. For me next year, I need to see some more obvious growth.
-
Fairly or unfairly the frustration factor with this team was super high. I guess we can explain a lot of this with a young team and staff, but that excuse just gets worn out fast. For me next year, I need to see some more obvious growth.
We doubled our conference win total. Have a good shot at a 20 win season. Last year we were 13-19 and last in the Big East. That's not obvious growth?
-
DePaul 51, Marquette 50
On that team
Lazar Hayward...NBA...started against DePaul
Jimmy Butler....NBA...started against DePaul
DJO....NBA....started against DePaul
Dwight Buycks...NBA....off the bench
Cubillan and Acker were 5 of 7 that game. The four NBA guys were 11 of 31.
I was wrong in saying 5 NBA players and 4 starters. Should have been 4 NBA players, 3 of them starters. We scored 18 points in the second half. DePaul's first Big East win in 25 games. The only lead DePaul had the entire game was with one second left. With that much talent, epic choking dogs. :D
It happens.
Worst sporting event I have ever been to. What a nightmare that was.
-
Some people simply don't understand high level basketball...
A freaking men. That's where my disappointment comes in...Should they have been a stone cold lock to start the year like they were in most of Buzz's years?? Absolutely not, but they should have, at worst been heavy in the discussion right now. You had a Freshman who was one of the best in the country, a top 10 recruit, you should, at the very least be in the discussion for the NCAA's this time of year, NOT losing as many home games(over 2 years) that you have, not losing to DuhPaul(ever), Creighton at home, Belmont at home etc. Youth or not, this team underachieved. They werent that young by the end of the year. The "youth" excuse is so weak...did Youth affect Kentucky a couple years ago?? or Duke last year?? Save the "they are blue bloods" that's different argument. Youth is youth..There was enough talent on this team, the fact that they aren't even in the NCAA discussion...that rests in the Head Coach's lap. He can recruit, no doubt about it, but I have seen NOTHING from him that shows me he can Coach yet. He shows no creativity at all...no "wrinkles" in any game plans etc. Pretty stale really. TC and Buzz got creative from game to game depending on the opponent etc. I have seen nothing of that from Wojo.
-
With the exception of a half-dozen or so games, I have enjoyed this season.
I liked watching Henry, Haanif and Traci. I liked watching the light bulb go on for JJJ. I thought Wojo improved as a coach. Although Duane drifted at times, he came through big several times and that was of course enjoyable.
Would I have liked more improvement from Duane and Luke and, for that matter, Wojo? Yep. Would I have liked wins against DePaul, Belmont and Creighton (among others)? Yep.
But overall, I enjoyed watching the games and I feel we are on the right path. I agree with a few others who say next year will tell us a lot, but we're still on this year.
I agree with tower and give this team a B. If I'm feeling like a tough grader after watching a bad loss, maybe a B-. If we win a couple of BET games, heck, I might go B+!
I guess I'm just an optimist. Seems a better way to go through life.
+2017
My thoughts exactly.
-
Until the NCAA tournament is played will not know how tough the Big East was this year.
8 wins on paper is definately an improvement over 4 wins. However, two were against St. John's without their first team freshmen player and one was against DePaul without their best player.
Unless I'm just misremembering, I don't think the BE faired very well in the NCAAs last year...
And oh. So let's just discount half of our wins. In that case, then yes, if we want to take away half of our wins we are probably worse than we were last year.
::)
Henry has more potential than them combined. Talent right this second? I'd take Jones for sure. Dunham probably not. Youre rightvon that one
Ask Butler's coach off the record who he would've taken for this season alone and there's no doubt he would've traded either of those guys for Hank. Heck, maybe both of those guys for Hank.
Ask the BE coaches as a whole who they'd take for this season only and...well, the awards speak for themselves. Hank 1st Team, Jones and Dunham 2nd Team.
-
Ask Butler's coach off the record who he would've taken for this season alone and there's no doubt he would've traded either of those guys for Hank. Heck, maybe both of those guys for Hank.
Ask the BE coaches as a whole who they'd take for this season only and...well, the awards speak for themselves. Hank 1st Team, Jones and Dunham 2nd Team.
I was wrong about Dunham. But Jones advanced numbers are better than Henry's. Henry benefits from playing with less talent around him. Henry will be the better basketball player. No question. But I'd take redshirt senior Jones over freshmen Henry.
-
I was wrong about Dunham. But Jones advanced numbers are better than Henry's. Henry benefits from playing with less talent around him. Henry will be the better basketball player. No question. But I'd take redshirt senior Jones over freshmen Henry.
Goes both ways. More talent around you means more shots for guys that aren't you, but it also means easier shot attempts for you. Butler literally had to stop 1 single guy on the court for Marquette, they knew it, and he still went for 29 and 7 or whatever he had yesterday.
-
As a follow-up to the comments I made and to this year in general:
1) In fairness to Wojo, I think he managed expectations from the outset. Never once did I hear him talk about an NCAA berth or a leadership position in the Big East. Rather, I think he knew what he was facing this year. From time to time you could see it in his face, in the way he got into the faces of our players and how he reacted in his post-game comments.
2) The reason I was so aggravated yesterday is even though I agree with jsglow that building a team takes time, yesterday was a sign that we're a long way from where most of us want to be. I could accept a loss to Butler in Indy. That's a tough place to play and Butler -- even though we beat them a few weeks ago -- is a pretty good team and borderline NCAA team. But to get blown out in a loss as ugly as the Iowa loss was just suggests that either the team chemistry isn't right or the overall talent isn't there. We have enough experience that by now, that should not have happened with Butler.
3) My pessimism on this team is that our improvement in record is in part due to an improvement in talent. But's it also is due to having too many teams with RPIs of 150+ on our schedule. We had some highlights -- Georgetown, Providence, the Red Rodent and LSU. We were close against some very good teams, though we lost, and we generally played tough. I'm fearful that if Butler at Indy was indicative of where this team is, we've got a couple of long years ahead of us.
4) As to what I got wrong, I probably overstated our RPI issue. But we did lose to DePaul; our center does have a problem staying in games; and, we did get blown out in our last game of the season. I'm happy our record overall was better and I do bleed blue and gold, but we're three years removed from an Elite 8 appearance and we're long way from being in the upper echelon of our conference, which is where most of us Scoopers want us to be.
5) At the core of it, almost everyone in here is part of the Warrior family. This is a family debate and as long as we don't get trolled by some rabies-infested red rodents, I'm delighted to debate here… and to be convinced I'm wrong!
-
Until the NCAA tournament is played will not know how tough the Big East was this year.
8 wins on paper is definately an improvement over 4 wins. However, two were against St. John's without their first team freshmen player and one was against DePaul without their best player.
Do you believe that the Horizon league was the second best conference in America a few years ago....because Butler went to the final? Do you believe the Colonial was one of the 4 best conferences in America because George Mason went to the Final Four? Is an entire conference strength ignored by what happens for 5 months, and instead based solely on what happens for 1 hour and 30 minutes?
Big East is 14-14 against top 50 BPI teams. THE BEST IN AMERICA
Big East is 31-19 against power conference teams, 2nd best in America only trailing the Big 12.
We'll see how the conference does in the tournament, but the conference has been quite good this year.
-
+2017
My thoughts exactly.
I'll have some of that
-
Fairly or unfairly the frustration factor with this team was super high. I guess we can explain a lot of this with a young team and staff, but that excuse just gets worn out fast. For me next year, I need to see some more obvious growth.
Or what?
What will you do if you don't get the more obvious growth you need to see?
I'm sure UWM will appreciate having another fan, so enjoy.
-
For those suggesting that if MU doesn't significantly improve next year Wojo's seat will be very warm, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Wojo's seat is the furthest thing from any kind of warmth at all.
-
Or what?
What will you do if you don't get the more obvious growth you need to see?
I'm sure UWM will appreciate having another fan, so enjoy.
I'm sorry but calling someone out for being disappointed is misguided. The "or what" is that person will be dissatisfied.
I think we all agree the year made sense with the variables involved but it was not anywhere near we expect to be as a program. So next year we need to get closer to being a consistently successful profram. Nothing wrong with that.
-
For those suggesting that if MU doesn't significantly improve next year Wojo's seat will be very warm, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Wojo's seat is the furthest thing from any kind of warmth at all.
That is absolutely, 100%, ironclad correct.
People are just making crap up to suggest otherwise.
-
Until the NCAA tournament is played will not know how tough the Big East was this year.
wat?
-
For those suggesting that if MU doesn't significantly improve next year Wojo's seat will be very warm, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Wojo's seat is the furthest thing from any kind of warmth at all.
So, are you saying his seat is cold?
(http://img.memecdn.com/damn-thats-a-cold-ass-honkey_o_1202887.jpg)
-
I'm sorry but calling someone out for being disappointed is misguided. The "or what" is that person will be dissatisfied.
I think we all agree the year made sense with the variables involved but it was not anywhere near we expect to be as a program. So next year we need to get closer to being a consistently successful profram. Nothing wrong with that.
He made a veiled threat. Actually, it wasn't even veiled. I want to know what he will do if the Warriors don't meet his specific standards by his specific deadline.
-
One word: Uninspiring.
We can get any home slice to come in here for a million bucks, recruit traditionals and lose. We need Wojo to prove he's a winner soon.
-
Do you believe that the Horizon league was the second best conference in America a few years ago....because Butler went to the final? Do you believe the Colonial was one of the 4 best conferences in America because George Mason went to the Final Four? Is an entire conference strength ignored by what happens for 5 months, and instead based solely on what happens for 1 hour and 30 minutes?
Big East is 14-14 against top 50 BPI teams. THE BEST IN AMERICA
Big East is 31-19 against power conference teams, 2nd best in America only trailing the Big 12.
We'll see how the conference does in the tournament, but the conference has been quite good this year.
I agree with this analysis
-
That is absolutely, 100%, ironclad correct.
People are just making crap up to suggest otherwise.
I just don't buy this. We miss post season again next year and ticket numbers start to plummet I think his seat will get very warm very fast. To suggest otherwise is to completely misunderstand the economics of MUBB. But hopefully well never see who is right.
-
They performed very close to what I was expecting; significant improvement from last year, with some very uneven performances that can be attributed to youth.
I predicted 18-13 before the season started, and they slightly exceeded that based on Henry being even better than advertised and performing well in close games, particularly in the tournament in NY.
I also said at the time that even if Henry was a one and done they'd be better next year simply by virtue of maturing. So in the Far Too Early to Guess category, I am guessing 20-21 wins next year. I haven't seen one second of Hauser or Rowsey play and of course I have no idea who else Wojo might be able to bring in for next year yet, but I think they will make a small improvement in the W-L record. I am assuming a somewhat tougher non-con schedule and a somewhat weaker BE due to a lot of departing talent. We will more likely than not perform at a more median level in close games, i.e., regress to the mean, but I think the biggest improvement will be the continued growth we've seen from Traci paired with having an actual 2nd point guard on the roster rather than asking out SG's to fill in at point.
Of course in the unlikely event HE stays I think we are looking at 23-24 wins.
-
What's really sad is, people are now happy with showing an improvement from winning 4 BE games to 8 BE games. It's rather pathetic that a program that won a BE title, made the NCAA's 7 years straight, had two sweet 16's, consistently ranked in the top 25, just 3 years later and the fans are now happy with 8 BE wins, and a possible NIT berth because it's "better than last year"?? Wow...some of you just don't get it, at all. This program was on the cusp of being elite in the old BE, a few years later and fans are happy they won 8 conference games?? Okay, so what...Wojo lost a lot of recruits, lots of programs do every year...Duke does, Kentucky does etc etc. They don't rebuild, they reload. I can understand a year missing the NCAA's after such a big change, but going on year 3 now?? How does a program that close to being elite, fall so far so fast??
Again...I will keep asking until someone answers me, because I want all of you to understand the reality of the situation...has any team in America, that's a major program fallen so far, so fast in a few years like MU has?? Find me one please...You can't. has any school been more affected(in a bad way) by the conference switch than MU has?? Not a single one...It's been great for Butler and creighton who moved up(Xavier too) and maybe Providence...but Not one single school in this conference has fallen so far in such a short period of time as MU has.
It wasn't that long ago, where winning at the BC was not only frequent, it was expected. They rarely lost at home, to anyone. Now, opposing teams walk in and it's basically a win before the game is even played...the building is empty, students don't show up etc. Sure all of think the move was great(even if it was all they could do), and yet fail to realize the affects this has had on the program in a bad way. The signs are obvious...MU will likely never come as close to being an elite program again, due to many factors, but who would have thought, they'd be slightly above the Dean years now??
-
What's really sad is, people are now happy with showing an improvement from winning 4 BE games to 8 BE games. It's rather pathetic that a program that won a BE title, made the NCAA's 7 years straight, had two sweet 16's, consistently ranked in the top 25, just 3 years later and the fans are now happy with 8 BE wins, and a possible NIT berth because it's "better than last year"?? Wow...some of you just don't get it, at all. This program was on the cusp of being elite in the old BE, a few years later and fans are happy they won 8 conference games?? Okay, so what...Wojo lost a lot of recruits, lots of programs do every year...Duke does, Kentucky does etc etc. They don't rebuild, they reload. I can understand a year missing the NCAA's after such a big change, but going on year 3 now?? How does a program that close to being elite, fall so far so fast??
Again...I will keep asking until someone answers me, because I want all of you to understand the reality of the situation...has any team in America, that's a major program fallen so far, so fast in a few years like MU has?? Find me one please...You can't. has any school been more affected(in a bad way) by the conference switch than MU has?? Not a single one...It's been great for Butler and creighton who moved up(Xavier too) and maybe Providence...but Not one single school in this conference has fallen so far in such a short period of time as MU has.
It wasn't that long ago, where winning at the BC was not only frequent, it was expected. They rarely lost at home, to anyone. Now, opposing teams walk in and it's basically a win before the game is even played...the building is empty, students don't show up etc. Sure all of think the move was great(even if it was all they could do), and yet fail to realize the affects this has had on the program in a bad way. The signs are obvious...MU will likely never come as close to being an elite program again, due to many factors, but who would have thought, they'd be slightly above the Dean years now??
Are you being serious? Based on your post, you aren't. Does your internet not work for you to answer some of your questions? Your hyperbole really hurts your credibility as well.
-
What's really sad is, people are now happy with showing an improvement from winning 4 BE games to 8 BE games. It's rather pathetic that a program that won a BE title, made the NCAA's 7 years straight, had two sweet 16's, consistently ranked in the top 25, just 3 years later and the fans are now happy with 8 BE wins, and a possible NIT berth because it's "better than last year"?? Wow...some of you just don't get it, at all. This program was on the cusp of being elite in the old BE, a few years later and fans are happy they won 8 conference games?? Okay, so what...Wojo lost a lot of recruits, lots of programs do every year...Duke does, Kentucky does etc etc. They don't rebuild, they reload. I can understand a year missing the NCAA's after such a big change, but going on year 3 now?? How does a program that close to being elite, fall so far so fast??
Again...I will keep asking until someone answers me, because I want all of you to understand the reality of the situation...has any team in America, that's a major program fallen so far, so fast in a few years like MU has?? Find me one please...You can't. has any school been more affected(in a bad way) by the conference switch than MU has?? Not a single one...It's been great for Butler and creighton who moved up(Xavier too) and maybe Providence...but Not one single school in this conference has fallen so far in such a short period of time as MU has.
It wasn't that long ago, where winning at the BC was not only frequent, it was expected. They rarely lost at home, to anyone. Now, opposing teams walk in and it's basically a win before the game is even played...the building is empty, students don't show up etc. Sure all of think the move was great(even if it was all they could do), and yet fail to realize the affects this has had on the program in a bad way. The signs are obvious...MU will likely never come as close to being an elite program again, due to many factors, but who would have thought, they'd be slightly above the Dean years now??
That coach left. There is a ground up rebuild. I am not convinced that Wojo is the man for it, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. I rate this season based on what it is, not what I wish it was.
-
What's really sad is, people are now happy with showing an improvement from winning 4 BE games to 8 BE games. It's rather pathetic that a program that won a BE title, made the NCAA's 7 years straight, had two sweet 16's, consistently ranked in the top 25, just 3 years later and the fans are now happy with 8 BE wins, and a possible NIT berth because it's "better than last year"?? Wow...some of you just don't get it, at all. This program was on the cusp of being elite in the old BE, a few years later and fans are happy they won 8 conference games?? Okay, so what...Wojo lost a lot of recruits, lots of programs do every year...Duke does, Kentucky does etc etc. They don't rebuild, they reload. I can understand a year missing the NCAA's after such a big change, but going on year 3 now?? How does a program that close to being elite, fall so far so fast??
Again...I will keep asking until someone answers me, because I want all of you to understand the reality of the situation...has any team in America, that's a major program fallen so far, so fast in a few years like MU has?? Find me one please...You can't. has any school been more affected(in a bad way) by the conference switch than MU has?? Not a single one...It's been great for Butler and creighton who moved up(Xavier too) and maybe Providence...but Not one single school in this conference has fallen so far in such a short period of time as MU has.
It wasn't that long ago, where winning at the BC was not only frequent, it was expected. They rarely lost at home, to anyone. Now, opposing teams walk in and it's basically a win before the game is even played...the building is empty, students don't show up etc. Sure all of think the move was great(even if it was all they could do), and yet fail to realize the affects this has had on the program in a bad way. The signs are obvious...MU will likely never come as close to being an elite program again, due to many factors, but who would have thought, they'd be slightly above the Dean years now??
No one answers you because all you do is rant. No suggestions. No solutions. Just more ranting.
(http://www.spoil-sports.com/images/Rant.gif)
-
That coach left. There is a ground up rebuild. I am not convinced that Wojo is the man for it, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. I rate this season based on what it is, not what I wish it was.
This
-
For those suggesting that if MU doesn't significantly improve next year Wojo's seat will be very warm, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Wojo's seat is the furthest thing from any kind of warmth at all.
Exactly. He has had one recruiting class play for him so far.
There will be no hot seat next year.
-
As for MU being affected by the conference re-alignment, I have one simple question. Where was there a better deal? Football was driving that bus (off a cliff). Marquette and it C-7 compatriots saw the writing on the wall, stuck together, brought in some like-minded institutions and did the absolute best deal they could have done under the circumstances. Yes, when the Big East had Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, UConn etc. it was a better basketball conference. That ship had sailed. The current iteration of the Big East is very good. Period. And MU could not have done better. The one thing I will actually praise Larry for. Whining about it is so weak.
-
I don't get why no one seems concerned that three years in to this new BE and MU hasn't even come close to winning it. Given where they were as a program before the switch, it was reasonable to assume they would run through this conference Memphis style in the old CUSA. I mean why shouldn't they have?? If this program was a "flash in the pan" where it had a couple of good years, and make an Elite 8 run etc, and then fell...okay you'd understand that. But given where they were...how does that happen and happen so fast?? MU isn't the only school to have lost a coach, and lost a recruiting class, but they might be the only one's who were ever THIS close to being an elite program and falling so fast so quickly. The way you overcome losing a recruiting class(es), is by player improvement/development. Who besides JJ really improved from last year to this year?? Duane certainly hasn't...Sandy hasn't..Luke hasn't. Player development/improvement rests in the Head Coach's lap...Buzz's players almost ALWAYS made noticeable improvement from one year to the next. Why haven't Wojo's?? Is it the way he runs the program?? is it the assistants aren't good teachers?? Something is amiss.
Look, I was stung badly by losing Shaka...he would have taken this program to even higher levels...And when I heard it was Wojo, I thought it was an interesting move(even if it did have the feel of MU thinking small time after Shaka's shun), you certainly knew he'd recruit well...and he has...but you also think okay the guy has been Coach K's right hand man for all these years, he must be able to Coach too, right?? Honestly, has he demonstrated he's a good Coach?? I don't see how anyone can say that he has. It's not like the cupboard is exactly bare with talent either...is it loaded?? no, but it's far from empty...this team on a pure talent basis, IS/WAS good enough that they should have been real close to being in the NCAA's right now, if not pretty much assured a bid. So what happened?? Don't even go there with the youth argument...the talent is good enough...so where's the problem??
-
What's really sad is, people are now happy with showing an improvement from winning 4 BE games to 8 BE games. It's rather pathetic that a program that won a BE title, made the NCAA's 7 years straight, had two sweet 16's, consistently ranked in the top 25, just 3 years later and the fans are now happy with 8 BE wins, and a possible NIT berth because it's "better than last year"?? Wow...some of you just don't get it, at all. This program was on the cusp of being elite in the old BE, a few years later and fans are happy they won 8 conference games?? Okay, so what...Wojo lost a lot of recruits, lots of programs do every year...Duke does, Kentucky does etc etc. They don't rebuild, they reload. I can understand a year missing the NCAA's after such a big change, but going on year 3 now?? How does a program that close to being elite, fall so far so fast??
That's cute...comparing us to Duke and Kentucky. Super cute. You seem to forget in that 3 year run, we were one of the last teams in the NCAAs one of those years, with a RPI of 63. We got bailed out by Davidson pissing down their leg. We easily could have not made it and lost in the first round. A few sweet 16's and an Elite 8 doesn't put you at the cusp of being elite, no matter how much you want to make it so. Is Butler elite? They made back to back championships. End of argument.
Again...I will keep asking until someone answers me, because I want all of you to understand the reality of the situation...has any team in America, that's a major program fallen so far, so fast in a few years like MU has?? Find me one please...You can't. has any school been more affected(in a bad way) by the conference switch than MU has?? Not a single one...It's been great for Butler and creighton who moved up(Xavier too) and maybe Providence...but Not one single school in this conference has fallen so far in such a short period of time as MU has.
I'm sorry, but I just have to call this what it is....STUPID. Where would you have MU playing right now? The Big Ten? Hey, how about the NBA central division? MU is in the best, hands down, bar none, basketball only conference in the country and it isn't even debatable. Has it been great for Butler? They were virtually automatic to the NCAAs when they played in the Horizon, and got to back to back title games. Now they have a war on their hands every year to get in. It just so happens that MU transitioned into the conference the same time our old coach decided to go on vacation for a year and crapped the bed the entire season long. Then he left, then a new coach came in, with recruits lost, and many vacancies which means massive transition. Do you think if Buzz didn't turd the covers and did a better job of putting the right pieces together we would be in this shape? No. But that's the deal, and so a step back happened. The timing sucked, but that's all it is...timing.
It wasn't that long ago, where winning at the BC was not only frequent, it was expected. They rarely lost at home, to anyone. Now, opposing teams walk in and it's basically a win before the game is even played...the building is empty, students don't show up etc. Sure all of think the move was great(even if it was all they could do), and yet fail to realize the affects this has had on the program in a bad way. The signs are obvious...MU will likely never come as close to being an elite program again, due to many factors, but who would have thought, they'd be slightly above the Dean years now??
Again, with youth comes results that are inconsistent. That's the nature of the beast. The building isn't empty, nice hyperbole. It needs to get better, no doubt, but stop with the dramatics. Again, what would you like MU to do? Who's Dean? Jimmy Dean? You don't think MU understands the situation they are in? Give me a break, of course they do. That's why they aren't pissing their pants like you are and are committed to not panic moves, but will play the long game here. Guess what, you aren't going to like it and there are others on this board that won't either. TOO BAD. That's the deal, that's really the only choice they have. We have a young, fiery coach, learning on the job, solid recruiter, well spoken, good ambassador for this university. We're improving under him and as long as we continue to do so, we'll be fine, but it will take longer than you have the patience for, I guarantee it. I suggest you take some time off, because you're just going to be bitter and angry for awhile.
-
I don't get why no one seems concerned that three years in to this new BE and MU hasn't even come close to winning it. Given where they were as a program before the switch, it was reasonable to assume they would run through this conference Memphis style in the old CUSA. I mean why shouldn't they have?? If this program was a "flash in the pan" where it had a couple of good years, and make an Elite 8 run etc, and then fell...okay you'd understand that. But given where they were...how does that happen and happen so fast?? MU isn't the only school to have lost a coach, and lost a recruiting class, but they might be the only one's who were ever THIS close to being an elite program and falling so fast so quickly. The way you overcome losing a recruiting class(es), is by player improvement/development. Who besides JJ really improved from last year to this year?? Duane certainly hasn't...Sandy hasn't..Luke hasn't. Player development/improvement rests in the Head Coach's lap...Buzz's players almost ALWAYS made noticeable improvement from one year to the next. Why haven't Wojo's?? Is it the way he runs the program?? is it the assistants aren't good teachers?? Something is amiss.
Look, I was stung badly by losing Shaka...he would have taken this program to even higher levels...And when I heard it was Wojo, I thought it was an interesting move(even if it did have the feel of MU thinking small time after Shaka's shun), you certainly knew he'd recruit well...and he has...but you also think okay the guy has been Coach K's right hand man for all these years, he must be able to Coach too, right?? Honestly, has he demonstrated he's a good Coach?? I don't see how anyone can say that he has. It's not like the cupboard is exactly bare with talent either...is it loaded?? no, but it's far from empty...this team on a pure talent basis, IS/WAS good enough that they should have been real close to being in the NCAA's right now, if not pretty much assured a bid. So what happened?? Don't even go there with the youth argument...the talent is good enough...so where's the problem??
If you can't see that inexperience is a legitimate issue, I don't know what to say.
-
Youth. Lack of size beyond Henry and Luke. Lack of width. Second year coach.
Take 'Marquette' off the jersey. Now imagine a generic team with the following set up. 4 players back from a 13 win team. Only two of them starters. The one upperclass incoming transfer never played in two years at his prior school. No seniors. 10 scholarship players. Only 3 taller than 6'6. Virtually all PG minutes played by freshman, one of whom never played PG in high school. No deadeye 3 pt shooters. In a conference featuring 3 different teams that have been in the top 10 this season, one of whom was #1. A second year head coach surrounded by no head coaching experience. Best player is a freshman. Arguably the second best player is a freshman (some debate, I grant you). With an increasingly apathetic student body and fanbase that doesn't turn out and support its team through thick and thin, so with a diminishing home court advantage.
What should the record of that generic team be?
The aforementioned reasons were why I predicted a 14 win season. Henry, Haanif, and Traci were all better than I expected. That is what is, not what I wish was.
-
I don't get why no one seems concerned that three years in to this new BE and MU hasn't even come close to winning it. Given where they were as a program before the switch, it was reasonable to assume they would run through this conference Memphis style in the old CUSA. I mean why shouldn't they have?? If this program was a "flash in the pan" where it had a couple of good years, and make an Elite 8 run etc, and then fell...okay you'd understand that. But given where they were...how does that happen and happen so fast?? MU isn't the only school to have lost a coach, and lost a recruiting class, but they might be the only one's who were ever THIS close to being an elite program and falling so fast so quickly. The way you overcome losing a recruiting class(es), is by player improvement/development. Who besides JJ really improved from last year to this year?? Duane certainly hasn't...Sandy hasn't..Luke hasn't. Player development/improvement rests in the Head Coach's lap...Buzz's players almost ALWAYS made noticeable improvement from one year to the next. Why haven't Wojo's?? Is it the way he runs the program?? is it the assistants aren't good teachers?? Something is amiss.
Davante...did he make a big leap his last year? How about Jamil Wilson his senior year....was he improving leaps and bounds? Dominic James went backward his senior year. Most of "Wojo's" players are in their first year...or aren't you paying attention. His first year, those weren't his players....so maybe you can wait a few minutes and see how they develop. We know two of Wojo's first year players made All Big East freshmen team.
Stop with the nonsense that we were close to an elite program. Just dumb. We were a very good program, but elite isn't close. Elite isn't winning the conference one time in 15 years...sorry, you don't get to make up definitions.
You want to know what hurt more than anything? A kid that got horrible advice to go pro when he shouldn't have. That started a lot of bad stuff, including Buzz taking the year off. Vander plays, we go to the NCAAs, Vander gets drafted, Buzz may or may not leave, but MU is in better shape.
Look, I was stung badly by losing Shaka...he would have taken this program to even higher levels...And when I heard it was Wojo, I thought it was an interesting move(even if it did have the feel of MU thinking small time after Shaka's shun), you certainly knew he'd recruit well...and he has...but you also think okay the guy has been Coach K's right hand man for all these years, he must be able to Coach too, right?? Honestly, has he demonstrated he's a good Coach?? I don't see how anyone can say that he has. It's not like the cupboard is exactly bare with talent either...is it loaded?? no, but it's far from empty...this team on a pure talent basis, IS/WAS good enough that they should have been real close to being in the NCAA's right now, if not pretty much assured a bid. So what happened?? Don't even go there with the youth argument...the talent is good enough...so where's the problem??
So you are stung....at least MU went for broke, but it didn't happen. This team doesn't have the RIGHT talent, and that's the key. We have been inadequate at point guard for the last few years....college basketball is a guard's game first and foremost. If you can't figure out the massive problems we've had at point guard the last three years, then you are blind, that included Buzz's last year and even the years prior. Buzz wasn't great at developing point guards or in landing solid ones, and that has hurt us. Hopefully the guys we have on the roster now can do it, but we need to land another one this year.
-
Exactly. He has had one recruiting class play for him so far.
There will be no hot seat next year.
This...or almost this. Wojo's actually has had two recruiting classes. The first one was Sandy (who reupped), Carlino and Levin (who transferred in October). Shayok, Pierce, and Hill got releases and went elsewhere but we had to play that drama out. Meanwhile, there was wasted time and space with the inevitable: Mayo cut, Burton, Dawson, and Taylor transferring. Noskowiak and his issues and wasted recruiting time although MU got Traci late.
That put Wojo back a year or two with nothing of substance to show for that lost time. May be Wojo's biggest mistake whereas Crean and Buzz got right at it in their new jobs. Getting their recruits in. The administration was fine with that approach. Fans aren't. One is patient, and one irrational.
-
Dominic James went backward his senior year.
Off topic, but I disagree with this. Dom went backward his SO and JR seasons perhaps, but his SR season he realized he didn't have to try to be the lead scorer and focused on being a PG and an absolute beast of a defender on the perimeter. The #8 MU team was beating #2 UConn when he went down and effectively ended their run.
-
What's really sad is, people are now happy with showing an improvement from winning 4 BE games to 8 BE games. It's rather pathetic that a program that won a BE title, made the NCAA's 7 years straight, had two sweet 16's, consistently ranked in the top 25, just 3 years later and the fans are now happy with 8 BE wins, and a possible NIT berth because it's "better than last year"?? Wow...some of you just don't get it, at all. This program was on the cusp of being elite in the old BE, a few years later and fans are happy they won 8 conference games?? Okay, so what...Wojo lost a lot of recruits, lots of programs do every year...Duke does, Kentucky does etc etc. They don't rebuild, they reload. I can understand a year missing the NCAA's after such a big change, but going on year 3 now?? How does a program that close to being elite, fall so far so fast??
Again...I will keep asking until someone answers me, because I want all of you to understand the reality of the situation...has any team in America, that's a major program fallen so far, so fast in a few years like MU has?? Find me one please...You can't. has any school been more affected(in a bad way) by the conference switch than MU has?? Not a single one...It's been great for Butler and creighton who moved up(Xavier too) and maybe Providence...but Not one single school in this conference has fallen so far in such a short period of time as MU has.
It wasn't that long ago, where winning at the BC was not only frequent, it was expected. They rarely lost at home, to anyone. Now, opposing teams walk in and it's basically a win before the game is even played...the building is empty, students don't show up etc. Sure all of think the move was great(even if it was all they could do), and yet fail to realize the affects this has had on the program in a bad way. The signs are obvious...MU will likely never come as close to being an elite program again, due to many factors, but who would have thought, they'd be slightly above the Dean years now??
You are historically stupid.
-
Off topic, but I disagree with this. Dom went backward his SO and JR seasons perhaps, but his SR season he realized he didn't have to try to be the lead scorer and focused on being a PG and an absolute beast of a defender on the perimeter. The #8 MU team was beating #2 UConn when he went down and effectively ended their run.
Fair enough....his scoring production certainly went down, his FT % dropped like a rock (not sure what happened there), his assists rebounded a bit....I absolutely agree with you that his injury was the killer for that team.
-
What's really sad is, people are now happy with showing an improvement from winning 4 BE games to 8 BE games. It's rather pathetic that a program that won a BE title, made the NCAA's 7 years straight, had two sweet 16's, consistently ranked in the top 25, just 3 years later and the fans are now happy with 8 BE wins, and a possible NIT berth because it's "better than last year"?? Wow...some of you just don't get it, at all. This program was on the cusp of being elite in the old BE, a few years later and fans are happy they won 8 conference games?? Okay, so what...Wojo lost a lot of recruits, lots of programs do every year...Duke does, Kentucky does etc etc. They don't rebuild, they reload. I can understand a year missing the NCAA's after such a big change, but going on year 3 now?? How does a program that close to being elite, fall so far so fast??
Again...I will keep asking until someone answers me, because I want all of you to understand the reality of the situation...has any team in America, that's a major program fallen so far, so fast in a few years like MU has?? Find me one please...You can't. has any school been more affected(in a bad way) by the conference switch than MU has?? Not a single one...It's been great for Butler and creighton who moved up(Xavier too) and maybe Providence...but Not one single school in this conference has fallen so far in such a short period of time as MU has.
It wasn't that long ago, where winning at the BC was not only frequent, it was expected. They rarely lost at home, to anyone. Now, opposing teams walk in and it's basically a win before the game is even played...the building is empty, students don't show up etc. Sure all of think the move was great(even if it was all they could do), and yet fail to realize the affects this has had on the program in a bad way. The signs are obvious...MU will likely never come as close to being an elite program again, due to many factors, but who would have thought, they'd be slightly above the Dean years now??
I read up until "Wow...some of you just don't get it, at all." The irony...
-
I just don't buy this. We miss post season again next year and ticket numbers start to plummet I think his seat will get very warm very fast. To suggest otherwise is to completely misunderstand the economics of MUBB. But hopefully well never see who is right.
I think you're the one who is completely misunderstanding here.
-
One word: Uninspiring.
We can get any home slice to come in here for a million bucks, recruit traditionals and lose. We need Wojo to prove he's a winner soon.
I'm trying to gain an accurate view of your position and have 2 questions.
1) What is your definition of a Winner?
2) And in the following year will the definition remain the same, or will it change???
I don't think there are wrong answers, just how definitions vary by posters.
Thanks
-
I'm trying to gain an accurate view of your position and have 2 questions.
1) What is your definition of a Winner?
2) And in the following year will the definition remain the same, or will it change???
Great questions generally. I'll try my shot at them and hope other Scoopers follow. First though, as frustrated as I am with 2015-2016, I like Wojo. I don't expect he will be on the hot seat unless season tickets decline and we continue to stagnate.
That said:
1) A winner at Marquette is a consistent NCAA tournament team. We expect to be in the tournament every year and regularly run deep. We expect to be in the Top 25 and to be in the talk for the National Championship. Yes, this is an elite program and I want my Warriors to again be elite and the talk of the NCAA.
2) We have not attained this consistently, but this view is pervasive among anyone who was graduated by Marquette from about 1968 until 1982.
-
Guru, if you're wondering how we fell so hard and fast, its because of how we rose in the first place. Buzz was very good at bringing in transfers and jucos but missed on most of his HS recruits. Transfers and jucos are great ways to bring in immediate boosts in talent. Most teams use them to fill in holes in their teams. Buzz built his team with them and tried to fill holes with high school players. This strategy worked for years but is exhausting. Buzz was constantly having to reload and find new pieces because jucos and transfers don't have four years of eligibility. Fortunately, Buzz was great at reloading and was a bit of a mad genius as a coach. But eventually it caught up with him. Buzz missed on several recruits and had some unexpected transfers and didn't have the base of high school talent to fall back on. Essentially, Buzz ran out of rope. So when we fell and Buzz took off, Wojo had to do almost a complete rebuild.
-
Great questions generally. I'll try my shot at them and hope other Scoopers follow. First though, as frustrated as I am with 2015-2016, I like Wojo. I don't expect he will be on the hot seat unless season tickets decline and we continue to stagnate.
That said:
1) A winner at Marquette is a consistent NCAA tournament team. We expect to be in the tournament every year and regularly run deep. We expect to be in the Top 25 and to be in the talk for the National Championship. Yes, this is an elite program and I want my Warriors to again be elite and the talk of the NCAA.
2) We have not attained this consistently, but this view is pervasive among anyone who was graduated by Marquette from about 1968 until 1982.
My sentiments exactly, yet so many MU fans seem okay with the status quo. It's not like it's that way in every program in the country. Look at UW for cripes sakes...as much as I hate them, how many consecutive years have they been in the NCAAS now?? Not too mention back to back final fours. This is their worst team(on paper) in a long freaking time and they are still going to the tourney. This is EXACTLY how it should be at MU if not even better. MU should get to the point where when it "bottoms" out for a year or two they barely get in the tournament, but still get in. Sadly, the above definition is exactly where this program was just 3 short years ago...it's taken a complete 360 since then, and it's perplexing. if it doesn't happen at UW, it sure as hell should NEVER happen at MU where they spend as much or more on their BB program than any other in the country.
For a program that spends as much as they do and dump as many resources into it as MU does, the results should certainly be much better than what they currently are, and that's a hard point to argue against for any one. There are programs around the country that spend a lot less on their men's BB teams than MU does, yet they have much more consistent results, and when they do "bottom out" the fall isn't nearly as precipitous as MU's has been.
Many here will spin it many different ways(coaching change etc), but again many schools go through what MU has and they don't fall as hard and as fast as MU has. It's quite perplexing. I'm not just talking the results on the court(though that's the most important), if no one notices the HUGE drop off in fan support then they are blind. More than anything it has to do with the conference change(Creighton just doesn't resonate like a Syracuse or Louisville). Maybe they can't do anything about the conference, I get that(even if I don't like it), but then you better damn well be sure the results on the court don't fall or you get what you have now.
This administration better figure out where they want their place to be in the CBB landscape...if you spend like an elite program, you damn well better make sure the results you are getting continuously are at an elite(or close to it) level. If they aren't(which they aren't currently) you better figure out really quick how to get it back to that level. The longer you stagnate like this, the more and more fans you lose. MU fans are used to sustained success(and they have the previous 7 years to fall back on) . Once you lose that, especially in a "lessor" conference(from a name perspective), it's a steep mountain to climb to get back there. Patience only lasts so long for everyone.
-
My sentiments exactly, yet so many MU fans seem okay with the status quo. It's not like it's that way in every program in the country. Look at UW for cripes sakes...as much as I hate them, how many consecutive years have they been in the NCAAS now?? Not too mention back to back final fours. This is their worst team(on paper) in a long freaking time and they are still going to the tourney. This is EXACTLY how it should be at MU if not even better. MU should get to the point where when it "bottoms" out for a year or two they barely get in the tournament, but still get in. Sadly, the above definition is exactly where this program was just 3 short years ago...it's taken a complete 360 since then, and it's perplexing. if it doesn't happen at UW, it sure as hell should NEVER happen at MU where they spend as much or more on their BB program than any other in the country.
Not all of us live in the 1970s. We haven't been at that level in a long time. We all want to get back there. But some of us realize that it takes years, decades even for that to happen. You have to build to it.
-
Guru, if you're wondering how we fell so hard and fast, its because of how we rose in the first place. Buzz was very good at bringing in transfers and jucos but missed on most of his HS recruits. Transfers and jucos are great ways to bring in immediate boosts in talent. Most teams use them to fill in holes in their teams. Buzz built his team with them and tried to fill holes with high school players. This strategy worked for years but is exhausting. Buzz was constantly having to reload and find new pieces because jucos and transfers don't have four years of eligibility. Fortunately, Buzz was great at reloading and was a bit of a mad genius as a coach. But eventually it caught up with him. Buzz missed on several recruits and had some unexpected transfers and didn't have the base of high school talent to fall back on. Essentially, Buzz ran out of rope. So when we fell and Buzz took off, Wojo had to do almost a complete rebuild.
And this is EXACTLY what Wojo should be doing...mixed in with his HS recruiting(he's great at that). Yet, he doesn't even seem to look at any Jucos whatsoever...had he brought in a JUCO or two this year, this team may very well be in the tourney and there wouldn't be the worry about "what happens two years from now when these JUCOS are gone", because Wojo does have a much better ability to recruit, and the program would have barely missed a beat had he used this approach. I don't get it...it's the same problem I have with Ted Thompson and Free agency, the fact that he ignores it year after year after year is the reason the Packers never go far in the playoffs. Why would you continually ignore an important tool available to improve your team. That's negligent if you ask me. Same with Wojo, JUCOS are exactly what this program has needed the last couple of years to keep it from "bottoming" out. Assuming you added the "right ones" and they made an immediate impact, we would have been talking about MU's seed this time last year and this year rather than wondering if we have improved eough this year to make the NIT. Why ignore Jucos when they are there for this very reason...to fill in holes.
-
Well part of the reason is that the program doesn't seem to be as accepting of jucos as they were in the past. I'm not sure how exactly true this is, but my understanding is the university will only take players who have a reasonable chance to graduate before their eligibility expires. That takes out a lot of jucos.
But wojo has gone after some jucos, he just hasn't been successful. He also went after grad transfers to fill in the holes. Damion Lee or Shonn Miller would have cured a lot of what was ill about this team. But he missed there too. Like I said, this route is exhausting and dangerous because once you miss your man, you are exposed.
If we had landed a stud juco or grad transfer and still had these results, I would share your concerns. But we didn't. Frankly, Wojo overachieved with what he had to work with.
-
And this is EXACTLY what Wojo should be doing...mixed in with his HS recruiting(he's great at that). Yet, he doesn't even seem to look at any Jucos whatsoever...had he brought in a JUCO or two this year, this team may very well be in the tourney and there wouldn't be the worry about "what happens two years from now when these JUCOS are gone", because Wojo does have a much better ability to recruit, and the program would have barely missed a beat had he used this approach. I don't get it...it's the same problem I have with Ted Thompson and Free agency, the fact that he ignores it year after year after year is the reason the Packers never go far in the playoffs. Why would you continually ignore an important tool available to improve your team. That's negligent if you ask me. Same with Wojo, JUCOS are exactly what this program has needed the last couple of years to keep it from "bottoming" out. Assuming you added the "right ones" and they made an immediate impact, we would have been talking about MU's seed this time last year and this year rather than wondering if we have improved eough this year to make the NIT. Why ignore Jucos when they are there for this very reason...to fill in holes.
He looked, he didn't land them. Again, why are you not paying attention? Multiple options were pursued.
-
I don't get why no one seems concerned that three years in to this new BE and MU hasn't even come close to winning it.
I'm not concerned because it's basketball, not real life.
I have real concerns about real things that really affect me and my family.
I love Marquette basketball, but it's a diversion. I want us to be great again, but I have far bigger concerns. Most grown-ups do.
-
That description of a winner is met by maybe 5 schools in the country. It hasn't been seen at MU in 30 years. It was a special time, with a special coach, and not near the competition as there is today. Duplicating what we had in the 1970's fails to recognize college basketball realities of today.
That doesn't mean we can't be very good, but I tire of people saying "we're just settling" for status quo. Think back what it was like, the market conditions, etc, when MU was one of the top 5 programs in the country and what has changed.
Hell, UCLA isn't close to what they used to be either. IU isn't. NC State isn't. Every game is on TV now. The scholarships are reduced per team, but the number of D1 teams has grown by more than 100 since then. Schools like Gonzaga one wouldn't dream of being very good, let alone a number of others.
-
Youth. Lack of size beyond Henry and Luke. Lack of width. Second year coach.
Take 'Marquette' off the jersey. Now imagine a generic team with the following set up. 4 players back from a 13 win team. Only two of them starters. The one upperclass incoming transfer never played in two years at his prior school. No seniors. 10 scholarship players. Only 3 taller than 6'6. Virtually all PG minutes played by freshman, one of whom never played PG in high school. No deadeye 3 pt shooters. In a conference featuring 3 different teams that have been in the top 10 this season, one of whom was #1. A second year head coach surrounded by no head coaching experience. Best player is a freshman. Arguably the second best player is a freshman (some debate, I grant you). With an increasingly apathetic student body and fanbase that doesn't turn out and support its team through thick and thin, so with a diminishing home court advantage.
What should the record of that generic team be?
The aforementioned reasons were why I predicted a 14 win season. Henry, Haanif, and Traci were all better than I expected. That is what is, not what I wish was.
Exactly the point I wanted to make. Wojo inherited an empty cupboard. Some house cleaning was expected because players want to play for people who are committed to them and have made them progress. So guys left. No surprise. Of the remaining guys 2 have sustained major injuries and have been up and down since. Another (Sandy) was a "marginal" recruit for Big East but was better than any available alternative. The other guy (JJJ) is a great athlete with huge potential but a slow learner with a badly broken jumper. Wojo went out and got 2 stellar recruits and 2 more contributors and 2 projects. Rebuilding is a 3-5 year process. I'm willing to be patient.
-
For those suggesting that if MU doesn't significantly improve next year Wojo's seat will be very warm, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Wojo's seat is the furthest thing from any kind of warmth at all.
MU gave him an extension Mid-season. What fans think is often irrational. It is what the president and athletic director think. Crean would of been gone at Indiana, if it was the fans decision.
-
My basic take on the season is that while we were not as good as my original guess, I realized how dumb that guess was after watching us for about 10 minutes.
There was a lot to like about this season. I think Haanif and Traci are going to be four year stalwarts. JjJ was incredibly efficient down the stretch. Hopefully he can carry it forward to a full season next year. Luke's low post moves and particularly his hook shots became very reliable as the season wore on. He is a nice low post scorer, if not the defender and rebounder you want in the middle. Henry was unspectacularly spectacular, if you get my meaning. He's not the flashy, I can't believe he just did that kind of player that most lottery pick stud freshman are, but he was a brutally efficient defensive rebounder and just a solid all around player. His defense improved a great deal over the course of the season, too. The team steadily got better as the season wore on, the last game notwithstanding.
The biggest disappointment to me was Duane, who was the one guy I liked watching last season. I was hoping he'd take another step forward, but he treaded water at best. I like that he is willing to take the big shot and be the man when push comes to shove, though. Anim looks like an athlete, but it was a wasted season for him as we don't know what we have, Wally is just another guy (and right now the leading candidate for our PF next year?), and Heldt looks like a guy in need of a redshirt season.
I am not as optimistic as many of you for the next couple seasons, however. I can't see how we will be better next year without Henry. I get everyone is a year older and better and we've got a few new guys coming in, but we are woefully short on big people. Our two big men are a foul-prone guy who is an adequate at best rebounder and an unproven guy who didn't remotely resemble a guy who you could expect to be in your rotation next year. We don't have a PF. We are going to be small and thin again. We need to get at least two 6-8 or better athletic big guys into the mix. If Wojo could pull at least one of those out of his hat for next season, it would make a huge difference.
-
My sentiments exactly, yet so many MU fans seem okay with the status quo.
No. Actually NO ONE would be satisfied if this season were the status quo. Not one single Marquette fan.
However many believe that there has been progress. It maybe slow and steady, but it's progress. If that's not good enough for some people, then fine. But what do you want Marquette to do? Fire Wojo? Fire his staff? Give him a stern talking to? Wojo knows this isn't good enough.
And most believe that ranting about how far we have fallen since winning the OBE and getting to the E8 DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Not one bit of good can be had for getting angry on a message board about it. So why bother?
-
Well part of the reason is that the program doesn't seem to be as accepting of jucos as they were in the past. I'm not sure how exactly true this is, but my understanding is the university will only take players who have a reasonable chance to graduate before their eligibility expires. That takes out a lot of jucos.
But wojo has gone after some jucos, he just hasn't been successful. He also went after grad transfers to fill in the holes. Damion Lee or Shonn Miller would have cured a lot of what was ill about this team. But he missed there too. Like I said, this route is exhausting and dangerous because once you miss your man, you are exposed.
If we had landed a stud juco or grad transfer and still had these results, I would share your concerns. But we didn't. Frankly, Wojo overachieved with what he had to work with.
And (this is also related to your earlier point) Buzz is from that world and has tons of connections while Wojo seems much better connected to the traditional high school recruiting world (and already recruits WI outside of Milwaukee better than Buzz ever did). Even in the cases where Wojo wants a JUCO that meets the standards he will probably not be as successful as Buzz would be because that's just not his strength. I'm sure the people who hired him are aware of that tradeoff and are probably satisfied with it even though it likely meant an extra year in the rebuild.
-
No. Actually NO ONE would be satisfied if this season were the status quo. Not one single Marquette fan.
However many believe that there has been progress. It maybe slow and steady, but it's progress. If that's not good enough for some people, then fine. But what do you want Marquette to do? Fire Wojo? Fire his staff? Give him a stern talking to? Wojo knows this isn't good enough.
And most believe that ranting about how far we have fallen since winning the OBE and getting to the E8 DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Not one bit of good can be had for getting angry on a message board about it. So why bother?
Hell, I'd be satisfied with getting in the tourney every single year...that should be the goal, and the benchmark. People act like that is a "pipedream" yet forget just 4 years ago, that was the norm for MU. It wasn't like that was a thing 10-15 years ago. Regardless of circumstances(losing a coach etc), MU should have NEVER fallen to the point where two years in a row(maybe three now), where they don't even make the postseason. That was what happened during the Dukiet days. Deane was satisfied with NIT berths every year. MU had gone to the tourney 7 straight years, that was becoming the norm, and it still should be. For those of you that thinks that's "outrageous" to expect that, look at how many programs sustain that level...Hell look no further than Madison...It sucks, but they are at that level...how can they do it, and MU can't?? MU spends way more on their BB program than UW does. Gonzaga does it, there are many others.
-
I am not as optimistic as many of you for the next couple seasons, however. I can't see how we will be better next year without Henry. I get everyone is a year older and better and we've got a few new guys coming in, but we are woefully short on big people. Our two big men are a foul-prone guy who is an adequate at best rebounder and an unproven guy who didn't remotely resemble a guy who you could expect to be in your rotation next year. We don't have a PF. We are going to be small and thin again. We need to get at least two 6-8 or better athletic big guys into the mix. If Wojo could pull at least one of those out of his hat for next season, it would make a huge difference.
I agree with this 100%. I am bullish on the player development for next year but unless we get another big man, I am preparing myself for a very similar season as this year (up/down - NIT & knocking on the door for NCAA). I also hope Wojo grabs an experienced coach to help manage the sideline.
Next year is important in my mind for Wojo -- before everyone jumps on me, I don't think its get to the tourney or get fired - but I do think the program only has so many years it go without the tourney before the financial implications start to hurt.
-
And (this is also related to your earlier point) Buzz is from that world and has tons of connections while Wojo seems much better connected to the traditional high school recruiting world (and already recruits WI outside of Milwaukee better than Buzz ever did). Even in the cases where Wojo wants a JUCO that meets the standards he will probably not be as successful as Buzz would be because that's just not his strength. I'm sure the people who hired him are aware of that tradeoff and are probably satisfied with it even though it likely meant an extra year in the rebuild.
Then shouldn't he have someone on the staff that is connected to the JUCO world?? Same with internationally...that's an untapped market, that MU has rarely explored seriously.
-
Hell, I'd be satisfied with getting in the tourney every single year...that should be the goal, and the benchmark. People act like that is a "pipedream" yet forget just 4 years ago, that was the norm for MU. It wasn't like that was a thing 10-15 years ago. Regardless of circumstances(losing a coach etc), MU should have NEVER fallen to the point where two years in a row(maybe three now), where they don't even make the postseason. That was what happened during the Dukiet days. Deane was satisfied with NIT berths every year. MU had gone to the tourney 7 straight years, that was becoming the norm, and it still should be. For those of you that thinks that's "outrageous" to expect that, look at how many programs sustain that level...Hell look no further than Madison...It sucks, but they are at that level...how can they do it, and MU can't?? MU spends way more on their BB program than UW does. Gonzaga does it, there are many others.
I agree with you that NCAA bids should be the norm for this program. I also agree with you that Marquette should be in the hunt for BE conference titles. Neither has happened yet. So you can either get mad about what happened in the past, or look at signs that it will be better in the future.
As someone who lived through both Dukiet and Deane, I know it can and will get better.
-
He made a veiled threat. Actually, it wasn't even veiled. I want to know what he will do if the Warriors don't meet his specific standards by his specific deadline.
First, it wasn't a threat. You need to step away from the internet and relax. What would I even have to threaten? That I won't renew my season tickets? I am sure MU will be crushed. No, about the most this means is I might miss one or two 8:20 tip off games on a Tuesday night next year because I admit I am not as inspired watching a questionable NIT team play the #273 RPI opponent as I am watching an NCAA team fight for a conference championship. Go ahead and question my fan status. I have far bigger concerns than my college basketball hobby. Life will go on and I will still pull for the Warriors.
Second, I don't see either a "specific" set of criteria or a "specific" timeline. I would like "some obvious growth" next year. Let's start with better ball control. I expect as the team matures we see this. I don't think that is unreasonable. I would like to see some better in game adjustments by both the players and the staff. Again, I don't think this unreasonable.
I see a young team with a lot of talent that plays well for stretches. I would like those stretches to be longer, and yes, I am frustrated that even though they are young they were unable to put together those longer stretches this year. Is that unrealistic? Maybe. In that case I must be the first fan to have unrealistic expectations of my team.
Finally, I imagine that if my arbitrary demands and timelines are not met that I will find a fan message board and post messages about how, whether it is fair to the team or not, I was disappointed and frustrated in their overall performance, and how I want to see some improvement in 2017-18.
So now you know what I will do, or more accurately, won't do if there is no improvement next year. I am sorry you felt threatened by my earlier comment. That was not my intent. Hope this makes it better. ;)
-
I agree with this 100%. I am bullish on the player development for next year but unless we get another big man, I am preparing myself for a very similar season as this year (up/down - NIT & knocking on the door for NCAA). I also hope Wojo grabs an experienced coach to help manage the sideline.
Next year is important in my mind for Wojo -- before everyone jumps on me, I don't think its get to the tourney or get fired - but I do think the program only has so many years it go without the tourney before the financial implications start to hurt.
They are already starting to hurt. I think most of us are on the same page. And I totally agree with you that Wojo needs a credible big next year. Apart from Markus, his recruiting suggests he understands that too.
Let's give him some credit here. Last year about now he was in desperate need of a PG after Nick flamed out. I think most of us would agree that he did a very good job of filling that need. Sure there were growing pains with Traci but there's every reason to believe that he'll be a quality contributor for 4 years and a good enough PG to dance with. If next year's PF (let's speculate a Frosh) plays 25 minutes, grabs 6-7 boards, puts in 6 garbage rebound points and plays decent D we'll be fine. And I think Wojo can get that done. We win 20 this year after beating St. John's. We'll match or exceed that next year assuming the #4 isn't a black hole.
BTW. Next year Matt is Luke's true backup. He'll play a solid 8-10 minutes and play them fundamentally well. Wally will run 10-15 at the #4 (hopefully) with rebounding and hustle as his mantra. And our guard rotation will be Top 40 worthy right out of the box. Who knows if that'll be enough.
-
I agree with you that NCAA bids should be the norm for this program. I also agree with you that Marquette should be in the hunt for BE conference titles. Neither has happened yet. So you can either get mad about what happened in the past, or look at signs that it will be better in the future.
As someone who lived through both Dukiet and Deane, I know it can and will get better.
And to add to that, it's incredibly rare to have extended NCAA streaks. MU made it 8 years in a row, only 6 programs currently have a streak longer than that. And Gonzaga could miss out this year, ending their streak.
6 out of 350. It sucks that one of them is our rival, but it's really hard to have 10+ consecutive years in the dance. I thought this year's team would have a chance, but it wasn't to be.
-
That description of a winner is met by maybe 5 schools in the country. It hasn't been seen at MU in 30 years. It was a special time, with a special coach, and not near the competition as there is today. Duplicating what we had in the 1970's fails to recognize college basketball realities of today.
That doesn't mean we can't be very good, but I tire of people saying "we're just settling" for status quo. Think back what it was like, the market conditions, etc, when MU was one of the top 5 programs in the country and what has changed.
Hell, UCLA isn't close to what they used to be either. IU isn't. NC State isn't. Every game is on TV now. The scholarships are reduced per team, but the number of D1 teams has grown by more than 100 since then. Schools like Gonzaga one wouldn't dream of being very good, let alone a number of others.
Chicos, Chicos Chicos.....
I don't think anyone at MU is settling for status quo. There's a reason we slapped Al McGuire's name on everything except the men's room toilet paper. That's our goal again and having "Al" on everything is a constant reminder of what we want to be.
Yes, the 1970s were a long time ago. Too long, at least it seems like, LOL. But consider this. For most of the 1970s, there were 24 teams in the NCAA tournament. We were a Major Independent and generally eight of those 24 slots went to Major Independents. There were 100 or so other MIs at the time. Al's 1970 tirade notwithstanding, the MIs were selected by region, which meant we competed with Notre Dame, Dayton, Loyola, Detroit, DePaul, Cincinnati, Louisville, Drake, St. Louis and several other schools for two slots. The notion of us going to the east or west was unheard of and Al was so angry at being placed in the Midwest that he went to the NIT in 1970.
The major conferences got a first round bye in the tournament. We didn't. We ended up having to play teams like Austin Peay, Miami of Ohio and the like while the BIG and the SEC watched us from the comfort of the first two rows.
Runners up in the conferences were not even considered for the tournament until around 1975 or 1976. The rest of the SEC was so bad because Kentucky was so good and no one else, save for maybe Vanderbilt, invested anything in basketball. The Big 10 was always Indiana, Ohio State and Michigan. Michigan State did not amount to anything until Magic Johnson arrived in 1978. The NIT was so good in those days because there was an enormous amount of talented teams left on the sidelines.
We probably had access to more talent than most of our peers. That's because Al was a great recruiter and, with the exception of about a dozen schools in the United States, hardly anyone recruited African-American players. And very few coaches were willing to take the floor with a team that looked like our's. Go back and read "Strong Inside" about Perry Wallace at Vanderbilt or any of the stories about Mississippi State playing Loyola in the 1963 NCAA tournament.
I don't argue the road is tough today. And, while I was disgusted at Saturday's play, I also think Wojo had a tough job and I'm pleased with him, as a fan. In some ways, the road is tougher. But think about it. There's a 68 team tournament. There are probably 35 to 40 (I forget the exact number) at large slots and the vast majority of those slots will go to the Power 5 and the Big East. We play a tougher schedule now (this past year not withstanding) but overall there's a tilt in the NCAA toward successful teams in conferences like the Big East (the Hillbilly's view not withstanding).
I don't think it is any harder now than it was then. We could debate this all day. But I think the goal of Marquette University Basketball has to be what I outlined. NCAA Tournament every year. Top 25 and "in the conversation."
-
I don't think anyone at MU is settling for status quo. There's a reason we slapped Al McGuire's name on everything except the men's room toilet paper. That's our goal again and having "Al" on everything is a constant reminder of what we want to be.
I'd argue that's more MU clinging to past glory than anything related to future ambitions.
But I think the goal of Marquette University Basketball has to be what I outlined. NCAA Tournament every year. Top 25 and "in the conversation."
See my last post about how difficult it is to make the tournament "every year."
-
Transfers and jucos are great ways to bring in immediate boosts in talent. Most teams use them to fill in holes in their teams. Buzz built his team with them and tried to fill holes with high school players.
I've been thinking about this, and I feel like this is key not only to the rebuild, but to the seeming lack of passion at the program.
I can only speak for myself, but as much as I loved watching Jimmy, Jae and DJO, I never really connected with them. I can't say for sure why—they were all seemingly great kids and continue to be good ambassadors for the university—but something about them not coming in as frosh missed a mark for me.
Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.
I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?
-
I've been thinking about this, and I feel like this is key not only to the rebuild, but to the seeming lack of passion at the program.
I can only speak for myself, but as much as I loved watching Jimmy, Jae and DJO, I never really connected with them. I can't say for sure why—they were all seemingly great kids and continue to be good ambassadors for the university—but something about them not coming in as frosh missed a mark for me.
Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.
I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?
I think blaming Jucos for our attendance issues is a bit of a reach.
-
I've been thinking about this, and I feel like this is key not only to the rebuild, but to the seeming lack of passion at the program.
I can only speak for myself, but as much as I loved watching Jimmy, Jae and DJO, I never really connected with them. I can't say for sure why—they were all seemingly great kids and continue to be good ambassadors for the university—but something about them not coming in as frosh missed a mark for me.
Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.
I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?
Well, I don't live in Milwaukee, and if I did I'd be a season ticket holder regardless of the quality of the team because I love the sport and the school. That aside, those guys are the kind of guys I LOVE rooting for. Appreciative, relentless hard workers and wonderful players. Those are the kind of guys that would attract me to a program, not the reverse. To each his own, I guess.
-
Well, I don't live in Milwaukee, and if I did I'd be a season ticket holder regardless of the quality of the team because I love the sport and the school. That aside, those guys are the kind of guys I LOVE rooting for. Appreciative, relentless hard workers and wonderful players. Those are the kind of guys that would attract me to a program, not the reverse. To each his own, I guess.
+1. DJO, Buycks, JFB, Jae, Fulce - give me those guys yesterday, today and tomorrow. Vander, Duane Wilson not as much. Dameon Mason, Ryan Amoroso not at all.
-
Watching Jae become the BEast POY when it was the greatest bball conference in the country is on the list of best MU bball moments in the modern era (I'm calling that TC forward)
-
Any of you peeps get that Simpson-Scarborough survey from Marquette benchmarking about academic reputation and alumni engagement? They threw in 3-4 questions about how important basketball is to the national and regional reputation, connectiveness and academics.
If it was Pilarz asking it, then I would think it would be around stepping down hoops' influence. Since its Lovell, I think it's about (politically) sustaining the investment.
-
Next year is make or break for Wojo. If we don't make the NCAA tournament this year we should be calling for his head. Period. He hasn't proven crap. With this years talent and a future top 10 NBA pick, 19-12 and 8-10 in conference is PATHETIC. Pick it up Wojo.
-
As out of touch as your avatar.
-
Next year is make or break for Wojo. If we don't make the NCAA tournament this year we should be calling for his head. Period. He hasn't proven crap. With this years talent and a future top 10 NBA pick, 19-12 and 8-10 in conference is PATHETIC. Pick it up Wojo.
You're wrong. In every way.
-
Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.
I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?
I can still remember watching us hold off St. John's in the Garden to clinch a share of the Big East Regular Season title. I started crying. I'm 40. I was born in 1975. For me to see us win (a share of) the best conference in the land was a moment I will never, ever forget. In my mind, we got to the mountaintop that day.
Then two weeks later and I'm walking through ATL, and Jamil & Davante are on the front page of USA Today after beating Miami in the S16. I have never been higher.
Loved, loved, loved those teams. In my mind, we were back on top.
-
I've been thinking about this, and I feel like this is key not only to the rebuild, but to the seeming lack of passion at the program.
I can only speak for myself, but as much as I loved watching Jimmy, Jae and DJO, I never really connected with them. I can't say for sure why—they were all seemingly great kids and continue to be good ambassadors for the university—but something about them not coming in as frosh missed a mark for me.
Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.
I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?
Not me. Loved those days. Loved Buzz's quirkiness.
This year seemed painful to me. So many games that we ended up winning, I kinda felt disgusted once it was over. That seems like a very strange emotion to have when your team ends up winning the game. And honestly, not too interested in watching the tournament this year. We will win Wed night and lose Thurs night.
And somehow it seems odd to me that that moving one seat over is so incredibly difficult when you had, what, something like 17 years sitting next to one of the greatest coaches of all time? I would have thought that move would have been a bit easier to make.....
Love my Warriors and hate feeling this way. Hoping for better and more consistent days.
-
I've been thinking about this, and I feel like this is key not only to the rebuild, but to the seeming lack of passion at the program.
I can only speak for myself, but as much as I loved watching Jimmy, Jae and DJO, I never really connected with them. I can't say for sure why—they were all seemingly great kids and continue to be good ambassadors for the university—but something about them not coming in as frosh missed a mark for me.
Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.
I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?
Hmmm. Couldn't disagree with this more. I like where the program is going, but I certainly "enjoyed" the brand of basketball that was being played 2008-2013 much more. Those teams were, as so many people called them, junkyard dogs with chips on their shoulder. Up and down games with great offense and tenacious D. They were so much fun to watch and played with so much emotion. Granted, part of the reason I was in love with those teams is I went to MU 08-12, but those teams were great and almost every game was close.
Being down on the program because the players were jucos and not traditional four year players is pretty lame.
-
Next year is make or break for Wojo. If we don't make the NCAA tournament this year we should be calling for his head. Period. He hasn't proven crap. With this years talent and a future top 10 NBA pick, 19-12 and 8-10 in conference is PATHETIC. Pick it up Wojo.
I do not think it is make or break for Wojo. The administration is not going to fire a coach they gave a contract extension to, because that would be admitting they were idiots.
-
What's really sad is, people are now happy with showing an improvement from winning 4 BE games to 8 BE games. It's rather pathetic that a program that won a BE title, made the NCAA's 7 years straight, had two sweet 16's, consistently ranked in the top 25, just 3 years later and the fans are now happy with 8 BE wins, and a possible NIT berth because it's "better than last year"?? Wow...some of you just don't get it, at all. This program was on the cusp of being elite in the old BE, a few years later and fans are happy they won 8 conference games?? Okay, so what...Wojo lost a lot of recruits, lots of programs do every year...Duke does, Kentucky does etc etc. They don't rebuild, they reload. I can understand a year missing the NCAA's after such a big change, but going on year 3 now?? How does a program that close to being elite, fall so far so fast??
Again...I will keep asking until someone answers me, because I want all of you to understand the reality of the situation...has any team in America, that's a major program fallen so far, so fast in a few years like MU has?? Find me one please...You can't. has any school been more affected(in a bad way) by the conference switch than MU has?? Not a single one...It's been great for Butler and creighton who moved up(Xavier too) and maybe Providence...but Not one single school in this conference has fallen so far in such a short period of time as MU has.
It wasn't that long ago, where winning at the BC was not only frequent, it was expected. They rarely lost at home, to anyone. Now, opposing teams walk in and it's basically a win before the game is even played...the building is empty, students don't show up etc. Sure all of think the move was great(even if it was all they could do), and yet fail to realize the affects this has had on the program in a bad way. The signs are obvious...MU will likely never come as close to being an elite program again, due to many factors, but who would have thought, they'd be slightly above the Dean years now??
And in Buzz's last year, MU sucked. How convenient for you to forget that, as well as the fact that he left the cupboard absolutely bare for last year.
-
I do not think it is make or break for Wojo. The administration is not going to fire a coach they gave a contract extension to, because that would be admitting they were idiots.
Next year isn't make or break. Losing Ellenson would probably earn him a little rope. Though if we missed the tourney again next year, I do think there would be some pressure starting to build. Not enough to get him canned (I think he gets at least 4 years) but I do think 2017-18 would be make or break.
-
Overall I am disappointed. Thought having HE would make for a better overall season. IMO, without him we would have been in for a very long year.
-
As much as I don't want to agree or disagree with everything said here, I will.
-
Being down on the program because the players didn't look like you is about as lame as it gets, and frankly could be considered something I am going to avoid saying.
In his defense, you totally whiffed on what he said. In the context of his statement, I see the rationale: you get the opportunity to see four year players grow and mature, as we did with the Amigos, Lazar, Davante, etc. With jucos, a lot of that process happens prior to them getting here, so you don't feel as invested. However, I would argue Jimmy broke that mold, progressing exponentially. Even Jae did in his brief time here.
Make sure you understand someone's statement before making a pretty inflammatory accusation.
-
In his defense, you totally whiffed on what he said. In the context of his statement, I see the rationale: you get the opportunity to see four year players grow and mature, as we did with the Amigos, Lazar, Davante, etc. With jucos, a lot of that process happens prior to them getting here, so you don't feel as invested. However, I would argue Jimmy broke that mold, progressing exponentially. Even Jae did in his brief time here.
Make sure you understand someone's statement before making a pretty inflammatory accusation.
Well, a lot of those guys were here for 3 years which is plenty of time to develop and pretty long in today's landscape. I took Utile's comments to mean he prefers to have the guys for four years and sure, we'd all like that, but that is not nearly as common as it used to be. Two years is plenty of time to appreciate a guy, I think. I hate to see HE go because I get the feeling he'd be a beast next year, BE POY good. Just enjoy the guys we have while we have them. Besides, there are a few that stayed for 4 years that I would have been happy to see leave sooner. At any rate, as long as the guys aren't thugs (and we never seem to have many thugs) and are working hard, its simple math for me. I always like them, but the better the team, the more I like them.
-
First, it wasn't a threat. You need to step away from the internet and relax. What would I even have to threaten? That I won't renew my season tickets? I am sure MU will be crushed. No, about the most this means is I might miss one or two 8:20 tip off games on a Tuesday night next year because I admit I am not as inspired watching a questionable NIT team play the #273 RPI opponent as I am watching an NCAA team fight for a conference championship. Go ahead and question my fan status. I have far bigger concerns than my college basketball hobby. Life will go on and I will still pull for the Warriors.
Second, I don't see either a "specific" set of criteria or a "specific" timeline. I would like "some obvious growth" next year. Let's start with better ball control. I expect as the team matures we see this. I don't think that is unreasonable. I would like to see some better in game adjustments by both the players and the staff. Again, I don't think this unreasonable.
I see a young team with a lot of talent that plays well for stretches. I would like those stretches to be longer, and yes, I am frustrated that even though they are young they were unable to put together those longer stretches this year. Is that unrealistic? Maybe. In that case I must be the first fan to have unrealistic expectations of my team.
Finally, I imagine that if my arbitrary demands and timelines are not met that I will find a fan message board and post messages about how, whether it is fair to the team or not, I was disappointed and frustrated in their overall performance, and how I want to see some improvement in 2017-18.
So now you know what I will do, or more accurately, won't do if there is no improvement next year. I am sorry you felt threatened by my earlier comment. That was not my intent. Hope this makes it better. ;)
I wasn't threatened, connie, and MU wasn't, either.
Just sayin' those kinds of posts -- "I need to see some more obvious growth" or "We have to win next season" or "Wojo had better win next year" -- always crack me up a little and lead me to say, "Or what?"
Maybe it's me who is warped ... always a real possibility.
Thanks for expounding on your thoughts. They're reasonable IMHO.
-
In his defense, you totally whiffed on what he said. In the context of his statement, I see the rationale: you get the opportunity to see four year players grow and mature, as we did with the Amigos, Lazar, Davante, etc. With jucos, a lot of that process happens prior to them getting here, so you don't feel as invested. However, I would argue Jimmy broke that mold, progressing exponentially. Even Jae did in his brief time here.
Make sure you understand someone's statement before making a pretty inflammatory accusation.
Fair enough. Maybe I misread it a bit, just seems silly to be down on a program in the midst of its strongest period since the 1970s due to a few jucos, who by the way,were our best players during that time period.
-
Agree with what many are saying in terms of tempering expectations. That said, the jury is very much out on Wojo's coaching ability.
I really believe a top notch X and O coach would have won 2-3 more games this season.
Really hope Wojo makes a progression as a coach and/or hires a good X/O coach.
Not saying anything about hot seats but we really need to see bench improvements next season.
-
I can still remember watching us hold off St. John's in the Garden to clinch a share of the Big East Regular Season title. I started crying. I'm 40. I was born in 1975. For me to see us win (a share of) the best conference in the land was a moment I will never, ever forget. In my mind, we got to the mountaintop that day.
Then two weeks later and I'm walking through ATL, and Jamil & Davante are on the front page of USA Today after beating Miami in the S16. I have never been higher.
Loved, loved, loved those teams. In my mind, we were back on top.
I was a lot higher during the Final Four run, the Big East that we won was ranked 2nd....Big Ten was ranked as best conference that year.
It was a wonderful accomplishment, but with the conference already had West Virginia gone and the conference imploding, it was no longer the top conference.
-
I was a lot higher during the Final Four run, the Big East that we won was ranked 2nd....Big Ten was ranked as best conference that year.
It was a wonderful accomplishment, but with the conference already had West Virginia gone and the conference imploding, it was no longer the top conference.
(http://thriftymommaramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/debbie-downer.jpg)
-
I don't think it is any harder now than it was then. We could debate this all day. But I think the goal of Marquette University Basketball has to be what I outlined. NCAA Tournament every year. Top 25 and "in the conversation."
In the conversation for what? Not sure what that means as it is so broad.
Making the tournament every year is extremely difficult. We've had that discussion here many times. In my view, 4 of 5 years is damn good. The number of schools that have made it 10 years or more in a row I think is less than 15 schools right now and don't include names like North Carolina, UCLA, Kentucky, Uconn, Indiana.
Yes, we could debate all day on the difficulty of getting in. My biggest argument would be the incredible drop off back then. In other words, it was a lot like women's basketball where there were 40 to 45 good to really good teams, and then a massive drop off for everyone else. In today's men's basketball, there are 150 teams on any given night can knock off number 1. The depth because of talent, scholarship limitations, uncertainty due to kids leaving early, commitments by schools to invest heavily, television, has changed the landscape.
When I was growing up I used to go to UCLA games at the end of Wooden's career, then under Bartow, etc. The Pac 10 (Pac 8) was UCLA and that was it. Every once in awhile USC would be ok. Today's day and age, Pac 12 might send 7 or 8 schools to the dance (yes, the tournament is much larger) and any of them are very competitive every night.
The consolidation of power that existed in the 1960's and 70's in basketball among a small number of schools no longer exists. MU was fortunate enough to be one of those schools, but the world has changed dramatically with many schools wanting in on the action. If someone were to tell you in the 1970's that Xavier would be up for a #1 seed in a few decades, you would be laughed out of the room. Those folks would argue someone like Loyola was much more likely. Imagine someone back then saying Wisconsin would be in back to back Final Fours.....while at the time Wisconsin was on a 52 year streak of no NCAA tournaments? Gonzaga. Butler.
Once TV proliferated and kids could get recognized at schools outside that power group, the world changed forever in college hoops. It's no longer the special club it used to be.
-
In the conversation for what? Not sure what that means as it is so broad.
Making the tournament every year is extremely difficult. We've had that discussion here many times. In my view, 4 of 5 years is damn good. The number of schools that have made it 10 years or more in a row I think is less than 15 schools right now and don't include names like North Carolina, UCLA, Kentucky, Uconn, Indiana.
Yes, we could debate all day on the difficulty of getting in. My biggest argument would be the incredible drop off back then. In other words, it was a lot like women's basketball where there were 40 to 45 good to really good teams, and then a massive drop off for everyone else. In today's men's basketball, there are 150 teams on any given night can knock off number 1. The depth because of talent, scholarship limitations, uncertainty due to kids leaving early, commitments by schools to invest heavily, television, has changed the landscape.
When I was growing up I used to go to UCLA games at the end of Wooden's career, then under Bartow, etc. The Pac 10 (Pac 8) was UCLA and that was it. Every once in awhile USC would be ok. Today's day and age, Pac 12 might send 7 or 8 schools to the dance (yes, the tournament is much larger) and any of them are very competitive every night.
The consolidation of power that existed in the 1960's and 70's in basketball among a small number of schools no longer exists. MU was fortunate enough to be one of those schools, but the world has changed dramatically with many schools wanting in on the action. If someone were to tell you in the 1970's that Xavier would be up for a #1 seed in a few decades, you would be laughed out of the room. Those folks would argue someone like Loyola was much more likely. Imagine someone back then saying Wisconsin would be in back to back Final Fours.....while at the time Wisconsin was on a 52 year streak of no NCAA tournaments? Gonzaga. Butler.
Once TV proliferated and kids could get recognized at schools outside that power group, the world changed forever in college hoops. It's no longer the special club it used to be.
Solid!
-
A freaking men. That's where my disappointment comes in...Should they have been a stone cold lock to start the year like they were in most of Buzz's years?? Absolutely not, but they should have, at worst been heavy in the discussion right now. You had a Freshman who was one of the best in the country, a top 10 recruit, you should, at the very least be in the discussion for the NCAA's this time of year, NOT losing as many home games(over 2 years) that you have, not losing to DuhPaul(ever), Creighton at home, Belmont at home etc. Youth or not, this team underachieved. They werent that young by the end of the year. The "youth" excuse is so weak...did Youth affect Kentucky a couple years ago?? or Duke last year?? Save the "they are blue bloods" that's different argument. Youth is youth..There was enough talent on this team, the fact that they aren't even in the NCAA discussion...that rests in the Head Coach's lap. He can recruit, no doubt about it, but I have seen NOTHING from him that shows me he can Coach yet. He shows no creativity at all...no "wrinkles" in any game plans etc. Pretty stale really. TC and Buzz got creative from game to game depending on the opponent etc. I have seen nothing of that from Wojo.
You need to take a poop.
-
(http://thriftymommaramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/debbie-downer.jpg)
Going with the facts...Big East was number two. We were the 3rd rated team in the conference, won a share of the Big East title. It was a great accomplishment, but no longer the best league.
http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi
-
In his defense, you totally whiffed on what he said. In the context of his statement, I see the rationale: you get the opportunity to see four year players grow and mature, as we did with the Amigos, Lazar, Davante, etc. With jucos, a lot of that process happens prior to them getting here, so you don't feel as invested. However, I would argue Jimmy broke that mold, progressing exponentially. Even Jae did in his brief time here.
Make sure you understand someone's statement before making a pretty inflammatory accusation.
Dwayne Wade played here for 2 years, as did Jae Crowder. If you honestly felt "less invested" in the MU program because of it I don't know what to tell you. JFB and DJO played for 3 and logged more minutes than all but a select few of our 4 year players from the past 20 years. I was 10x more "invested" in them than I was Chris Grimm or Chris Otule.
-
In the conversation for what? Not sure what that means as it is so broad.
Making the tournament every year is extremely difficult. We've had that discussion here many times. In my view, 4 of 5 years is damn good. The number of schools that have made it 10 years or more in a row I think is less than 15 schools right now and don't include names like North Carolina, UCLA, Kentucky, Uconn, Indiana.
I agree with the rest of your post.
However, while I think you are right that making the tournament every single year is difficult/impossible, but I disagree that it is an unreasonable expectation/goal for MU. If that 5th year comes around people shouldn't freak out (even though we will here) - but it should be the common perception that it is a 'down year' or a 'rebuilding year'. We rightly dedicate a lot of resources to BBall and that should be the return (in my opinion).
-
Making the tournament every year is extremely difficult. We've had that discussion here many times. In my view, 4 of 5 years is damn good. The number of schools that have made it 10 years or more in a row I think is less than 15 schools right now and don't include names like North Carolina, UCLA, Kentucky, Uconn, Indiana.
Five. Kansas, MSU, Duke, Zags, and the Rodents.
-
Dwayne Wade played here for 2 years, as did Jae Crowder. If you honestly felt "less invested" in the MU program because of it I don't know what to tell you. JFB and DJO played for 3 and logged more minutes than all but a select few of our 4 year players from the past 20 years. I was 10x more "invested" in them than I was Chris Grimm or Chris Otule.
Which is why undersanding a rationale and endorsing it are two separate things.
-
Which is why undersanding a rationale and endorsing it are two separate things.
Oh I understood his rationale but it was anything but rational.
-
Oh I understood his rationale but it was anything but rational.
Edit: let me clarify this.
I put that explanation out there for someone who I think drew the wrong conclusion from UED's post. That person acknowledged they may have misread it and amended their original response. Kudos to them.
-
Oh I understood his rationale but it was anything but rational.
Don't use 11 words when 9 will do:
"Oh I understood his rationale but it was irrational."
Don't use 9 words when 5 will do:
"I understood his irrational rationale."
Don't use 5 words when 1 will do:
#heBhoopaloopin
-
- Second best eFG% team since the Midgets. Cheatham will be a stud.
- Worst rebounding team in at least 15 years. Need to correct that. Missed Teve.
- Played too fast and too loose at the guard position. Haanif is not a PG, but Traci looks like he is the guy.
- This roster was not built to be physically Big East ready. A bigger if for next year too as it stands today.
- Hank lived up to his billing. He will be missed.
- J3 most improved. Needs to play every possession on D
- Other freshmen played like freshmen but showed signs
- Luke, Du, Sandy, and JJJ (earlier) were shrinking violets at times, and SOTG at others. Need consistency and strength.
Grade C: At this point, out of NIT. Saw progression and growth in last quarter of season. Roster was built for finesse in a physical league. Depth hurt with so many youngsters so whiffing on graduate big body transfers hurt when Teve left that would have protected Luke and Henry, and helped us on boards. That said, Wojo is 4 out and 1 in on offense, and I think that scheme hurt MU on the O boards more than anything. With such poor offensive rebounding to go with all the turnovers, this team gave back too many possessions. The shooting was better than us fans have seen, and so generally has the defense. Good road wins for the Thanksgiving tournament and Madison. Not as good at home as we needed to be. Growing pains gave us high and lows, but good memories. We get a reset here in NYC.
Bumping this thread. My grade won't change--a C is about right considering a losing conference record and missing the NIT (although that is less on the players and more on the schedulers). One disappointment at the end was five straight stinkers on defense to close out the season.
Roster and coach transition will be interesting to watch. Wojo's third recruiting class in the next days is a huge transitory one. Overall, lots of positives to build on but some potentially big holes to fill in April.
-
Bumping this thread. My grade won't change--a C is about right considering a losing conference record and missing the NIT (although that is less on the players and more on the schedulers). One disappointment at the end was five straight stinkers on defense to close out the season.
Roster and coach transition will be interesting to watch. Wojo's third recruiting class in the next days is a huge transitory one. Overall, lots of positives to build on but some potentially big holes to fill in April.
You can't really call this Wojo's 3rd recruiting class considering when recruitment for the class of 2014 was going on he was still recruiting for Duke and by the time he got the MU job there was nothing left to recruit besides transfers, of which he got one of the best available but is not a part of the roster anymore.
For all intents and purposes, this freshman class was his first recruiting class, and it is a damn good one.
-
You can't really call this Wojo's 3rd recruiting class considering when recruitment for the class of 2014 was going on he was still recruiting for Duke and by the time he got the MU job there was nothing left to recruit besides transfers, of which he got one of the best available but is not a part of the roster anymore.
For all intents and purposes, this freshman class was his first recruiting class, and it is a damn good one.
And on paper, his second class is very good as well. Both Hauser and Bailey are consensus top-100 players, and Howard will be top-50 if he reclassifies. Recruiting should be the last thing anyone is worried about.
Now whether the roster construction of said recruiting allows us to win consistently in this league given the physicality of teams like SHU, Xavier, etc. is a different question, but as far as getting quality players, Wojo is doing that.
-
And on paper, his second class is very good as well. Both Hauser and Bailey are consensus top-100 players, and Howard will be top-50 if he reclassifies. Recruiting should be the last thing anyone is worried about.
Now whether the roster construction of said recruiting allows us to win consistently in this league given the physicality of teams like SHU, Xavier, etc. is a different question, but as far as getting quality players, Wojo is doing that.
I consider Bailey a 2018 questionable recruit, Wojo might not even be here or Stan Johnson for that matter. So, so far, he has recruited one kid, not great. Whoever
the coach is in 2018, they have a new arena to sell, best in the country, so whomever the coach is they will have something to sell. Bailey is a great start, and Joey
Hauser might be second, that would be the start of a great class.
-
Which is why undersanding a rationale and endorsing it are two separate things.
Lenny can't even spell Dwyane Wade's name right....good Lord
-
You can't really call this Wojo's 3rd recruiting class considering when recruitment for the class of 2014 was going on he was still recruiting for Duke and by the time he got the MU job there was nothing left to recruit besides transfers, of which he got one of the best available but is not a part of the roster anymore.
For all intents and purposes, this freshman class was his first recruiting class, and it is a damn good one.
Exactly. He's had one recruiting class, and one hail mary to get a grad transfer in his first two months on the job.
-
I consider Bailey a 2018 questionable recruit, Wojo might not even be here or Stan Johnson for that matter. So, so far, he has recruited one kid, not great. Whoever
the coach is in 2018, they have a new arena to sell, best in the country, so whomever the coach is they will have something to sell. Bailey is a great start, and Joey
Hauser might be second, that would be the start of a great class.
Wojo will be here in 2018
-
I consider Bailey a 2018 questionable recruit, Wojo might not even be here or Stan Johnson for that matter. So, so far, he has recruited one kid, not great. Whoever
the coach is in 2018, they have a new arena to sell, best in the country, so whomever the coach is they will have something to sell. Bailey is a great start, and Joey
Hauser might be second, that would be the start of a great class.
I'm really excited about the Bailey kid. He will be 20 (I think) when he arrives on campus. He will have physical and mental maturity that most players don't get until they're upperclassmen. He'll be a 24 year old. And he will be a legitimate 24 year old senior! Not a Todd Mayo 24 year old senior.
-
I'm really excited about the Bailey kid. He will be 20 (I think) when he arrives on campus. He will have physical and mental maturity that most players don't get until they're upperclassmen. He'll be a 24 year old. And he will be a legitimate 24 year old senior! Not a Todd Mayo 24 year old senior.
The Bailey kid might be a real star as you state he will be a little older than most. If he is as good as the highlights show we will not be around for 4 years. Has a little
Reggie Miller look to him. Carter or Howard, Cheatham, Bailey or Hauser, add Joey, Heldt and you have a pretty good team already for 2018. Again, still need another big to really make a major difference. Really like a few bigs by then. Watched Lewis and Herro, both are lanky but very skinny, might be nice additions need some players with more body girth. Herro is a Koenig type player, will need 3 years to mature.
-
Five. Kansas, MSU, Duke, Zags, and the Rodents.
18 years for them bastards I saw on Twitter last night. What is the current longest streak?
-
18 years for them bastards I saw on Twitter last night. What is the current longest streak?
I believe it is Kansas with 26 straight.
-
18 years for them bastards I saw on Twitter last night. What is the current longest streak?
Rock Chalk Jayhawks!!! 27....tied for longest ever with North Carolina (their streak ended in 2001).
-
Five. Kansas, MSU, Duke, Zags, and the Rodents.
Louisville would have been 11 in a row, if not for the pull out this year.....hopefully you saw what I did there.
-
What's really sad is, people are now happy with showing an improvement from winning 4 BE games to 8 BE games.
I don't know anyone who's happy with a 7th place conference finish and missing the NCAAs. I know I'm not, as I've said many times. It's simple: this year the team showed clear improvement. Improvement is better than the alternative. And there are reasons to believe it will continue (Wojo's background with Duke and the Olympic program, recruiting success, et cetera).
Okay, so what...Wojo lost a lot of recruits, lots of programs do every year...Duke does, Kentucky does etc etc. They don't rebuild, they reload. I can understand a year missing the NCAA's after such a big change, but going on year 3 now?? How does a program that close to being elite, fall so far so fast??
Again...I will keep asking until someone answers me, because I want all of you to understand the reality of the situation...has any team in America, that's a major program fallen so far, so fast in a few years like MU has??
It happens. In 2008-09, Billy Gillespie was fired from Kentucky after finished 22-14 (8-8 in the SEC) — just four years removed from an Elite Eight appearance. His record the previous year was 18-13. Tubby Smith's records the previous two seasons were 22-12 and 22-13. That doesn't sound like reloading. Eventually, UK found its mojo. But it wandered in the wilderness for a few seasons.
Same with North Carolina following Dean Smith's retirement. Guthridge was let go after a 22-14 season in 1999-00 — just 2 years after reaching the Final Four. His replacement, Matt Doherty, started 26-7 but tanked the next season at 8-20 and was let go the following year.
The signs are obvious...MU will likely never come as close to being an elite program again, due to many factors, but who would have thought, they'd be slightly above the Deane years now??
All programs have ups and downs — even when you're talking about the greatest teams in college basketball history. Duke wasn't the juggernaut it is today when Coach K stepped in.
You don't have to like the fact that Marquette has been down. You can disagree that Marquette is on the way up, or that it's progressing fast enough. But going through a downturn isn't automatically a sign that the program is doomed. That's just Chicken Little thinking.
-
Lenny can't even spell Dwyane Wade's name right....good Lord
I misspell Wade's oddball spelling of his first name once in probably hundreds of typings and you feel it's worth TWO posts? Really? Is that all you've got?
-
Oh I understood his rationale but it was anything but rational.
I forgot how much I loved posting on 'scoop.
I apologize for brainstorming out loud as to why my passion for the program has waned. I also apologize for having different feelings than you.
I look forward to reading your logical and well-researched thoughts from here on out. It's refreshing to find someone so rational to model myself after.
-
You can't really call this Wojo's 3rd recruiting class considering when recruitment for the class of 2014 was going on he was still recruiting for Duke and by the time he got the MU job there was nothing left to recruit besides transfers, of which he got one of the best available but is not a part of the roster anymore.
For all intents and purposes, this freshman class was his first recruiting class, and it is a damn good one.
So Buzz reupped Sandy and signed Levin and Carlino? And Nick? Tried to rerecruit Hill, Shayok, Pierce to Marquette? Nick implodes and Traci signs. #revisionism
Fast forward a couple weeks and my dog could have predicted Odd Todd would be gone, but wasting a roster spot. A couple of months later and Levin transfers after getting recruited over BEFORE practice starts.
Fast forward a couple of months and Magic and Deonte transfer. JD then becomes leading scorer on his D1 team while D becomes the B12 Newcomer of the Year. An unnamed new walk-on lasts a few days.
Fast forward to the end of the year and one of the twins exits while Wojo's baby sitter's best friend transfers.
Next is a lottery pick and other(s) transfers...
-
So Buzz reupped Sandy and signed Levin? And Nick? Tried to rerecruit Hill, Shayok, Pierce to Marquette? Nick implodes and Traci signs. #revisionism
Fast forward a couple weeks and my dog could have predicted Odd Todd would be gone, but wasting a roster spot. A couple of months later and Levin transfers after getting recruited over BEFORE practice starts.
Fast forward a couple of months and Magic and Deonte transfer. JD then becomes leading scorer on his D1 team while D becomes the B12 Newcomer of the Year. An unnamed new walk-on lasts a few days.
Fast forward to the end of the year and one of the twins exits while Wojo's baby sitter's best friend transfers.
Next is a lottery pick and other(s) transfers...
He had to try to get all of Buzz's guys. It was April at the time of the hire. Almost all recruits are signed or committed at that point. He's trying to field a team, and obviously you have a better chance with kids that have already been recruited by Marquette than trying to make up years worth of recruiting time in 2 weeks.
Not going to take the time to argue all the other points. Too tired of this. Coaching changes happen and players leave. It's not unexpected. And to blame it on Wojo is ludicrous.
-
So Buzz reupped Sandy and signed Levin? And Nick? Tried to rerecruit Hill, Shayok, Pierce to Marquette? Nick implodes and Traci signs. #revisionism
Fast forward a couple weeks and my dog could have predicted Odd Todd would be gone, but wasting a roster spot. A couple of months later and Levin transfers after getting recruited over BEFORE practice starts.
Fast forward a couple of months and Magic and Deonte transfer. JD then becomes leading scorer on his D1 team while D becomes the B12 Newcomer of the Year. An unnamed new walk-on lasts a few days.
Fast forward to the end of the year and one of the twins exits while Wojo's baby sitter's best friend transfers.
Next is a lottery pick and other(s) transfers...
Can anyone translate?
-
Jabari Parker baby sat wojo's kids. Steve Taylor was his best friend in high school.
-
Can anyone translate?
The two day walk-on Pete Thaus, Matt Mache, Steve Taylor (Jabari Parker), Henry Ellenson and TBDs
-
The two day walk-on Pete Thaus,
I forgot about him -- didnt he even get an official PR....weird
-
I forgot about him -- didnt he even get an official PR....weird
http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/pete_thaus_940030.html
-
http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/pete_thaus_940030.html
Friend of Luke?
-
Friend of Luke?
Wardle Posse?
-
So Buzz reupped Sandy and signed Levin and Carlino? And Nick? Tried to rerecruit Hill, Shayok, Pierce to Marquette? Nick implodes and Traci signs. #revisionism
Fast forward a couple weeks and my dog could have predicted Odd Todd would be gone, but wasting a roster spot. A couple of months later and Levin transfers after getting recruited over BEFORE practice starts.
Fast forward a couple of months and Magic and Deonte transfer. JD then becomes leading scorer on his D1 team while D becomes the B12 Newcomer of the Year. An unnamed new walk-on lasts a few days.
Fast forward to the end of the year and one of the twins exits while Wojo's baby sitter's best friend transfers.
Next is a lottery pick and other(s) transfers...
An accurate analysis.