Long Form on Jae

[The Lens]

A great read:

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2016/04/jae_crowders_bumpy_rise_how_bo.html

[mutrainer71]

More Jae props, today's Boston globe.  Enjoy

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2016/04/14/jae-crowder-career-path-full-twists-and-turns/z2MPouBCzAiKIldzzO9enL/story.html?event=event12

[Taint]

And to think Pilarz and Larry ran off Buzz, by restricting his ability to continue to recruit guys like Jae, while raising our admission standard for athletes above the NCAA mandated minimums? 

Loved that Wojo recruited and landed Henry - yet he was always known as a one and done, maybe two and done - who was NEVER going to graduate from Marquette.  I suspect Wojo didn't so much as have to even ask if he could recruit Henry Ellenson.  So, it begs the question:  Why is it okay to recruit a one and done like Henry, but wrong to recruit a JUCO like Jae who was going to be challenged to graduate from MU due to his incoming credit load?

The climate around the program in Buzz's last couple of years was down right hypocritical, in light of what Marquette's Cura Personalis mission and Jesuit mission are.  MU lost the best thing that happened to it since Al McGuire, due to its "leadership."

Does anyone else miss players like Jae and Jimmy?  Ironically they are our two most successful and well known alums in the last 5 years.

[wadesworld]

And to think Pilarz and Larry ran off Buzz, by restricting his ability to continue to recruit guys like Jae, while raising our admission standard for athletes above the NCAA mandated minimums? 

Loved that Wojo recruited and landed Henry - yet he was always known as a one and done, maybe two and done - who was NEVER going to graduate from Marquette.  I suspect Wojo didn't so much as have to even ask if he could recruit Henry Ellenson.  So, it begs the question:  Why is it okay to recruit a one and done like Henry, but wrong to recruit a JUCO like Jae who was going to be challenged to graduate from MU due to his incoming credit load?

The climate around the program in Buzz's last couple of years was down right hypocritical, in light of what Marquette's Cura Personalis mission and Jesuit mission are.  MU lost the best thing that happened to it since Al McGuire, due to its "leadership."

Does anyone else miss players like Jae and Jimmy?  Ironically they are our two most successful and well known alums in the last 5 years.

Bazz was here longer than either of those 2...

Good story though Ners.

[The Lens]

Well that escalated quickly...

[Taint]

Bazz was here longer than either of those 2...

Good story though Ners.

Good point.  One more year under Wild and Cords, with the same recruiting restrictions in place.  Perhaps you fail to understand that once a relationship is significantly "tainted" and you see the A.D., who hired you get fired, then you have to fire one of your best friends, Scott Monarch, then have to be suspended for 1 game, then read in your local paperwork from your new A.D., of 90-days how you tie your tie too tight, and that your head is going to explode - guess what - all of the damage is done.  MU Admin sold Buzz down the river and he largely reciprocated in turn his last year here.

By the way, aren't you the guy who predicted an Elite 8 or Sweet 16 for last year's team in your preseason prediction?  #trusttheprocess

[jficke13]

Good point.  One more year under Wild and Cords, with the same recruiting restrictions in place.  Perhaps you fail to understand that once a relationship is significantly "tainted" and you see the A.D., who hired you get fired, then you have to fire one of your best friends, Scott Monarch, then have to be suspended for 1 game, then read in your local paperwork from your new A.D., of 90-days how you tie your tie too tight, and that your head is going to explode - guess what - all of the damage is done.  MU Admin sold Buzz down the river and he largely reciprocated in turn his last year here.

By the way, aren't you the guy who predicted an Elite 8 or Sweet 16 for last year's team in your preseason prediction?  #trusttheprocess

You seem like you're wound a little tight.

[MU82]

And to think Pilarz and Larry ran off Buzz, by restricting his ability to continue to recruit guys like Jae, while raising our admission standard for athletes above the NCAA mandated minimums? 

Loved that Wojo recruited and landed Henry - yet he was always known as a one and done, maybe two and done - who was NEVER going to graduate from Marquette.  I suspect Wojo didn't so much as have to even ask if he could recruit Henry Ellenson.  So, it begs the question:  Why is it okay to recruit a one and done like Henry, but wrong to recruit a JUCO like Jae who was going to be challenged to graduate from MU due to his incoming credit load?

The climate around the program in Buzz's last couple of years was down right hypocritical, in light of what Marquette's Cura Personalis mission and Jesuit mission are.  MU lost the best thing that happened to it since Al McGuire, due to its "leadership."

Does anyone else miss players like Jae and Jimmy?  Ironically they are our two most successful and well known alums in the last 5 years.

Yeah, Ners, but I think the question everybody is asking now is:

Derrick or Dawson?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Great stuff guys, thanks for sharing.

[Marcus92]

Great articles. In-depth, well-written and thoughtful. Thanks for posting. And glad to see that good sports journalism still exists.

[esotericmindguy]

It was the later JUCOs that caused the problems. Can't remember their names but the sexual assaults, fights and underage drinking was the culprit. Plus buzz is a complete fraud.

Of course I'm the wrong person to ask, I don't care if they're illiterate. Just put the ball in the hoop and don't do dumb sh*t. These guys do a ton for the university. I think I remember reading that applications doubled after the final four run. Get them some tutors and let them play ball. Sort of like badger football.

[tower912]

There wasn't 'underage drinking'.   There was being in a bar underage but not drinking.  DJO was in an altercation at the bar where no underage drinking occurred.  Vander punched a kid who may or may not have made an ethnic slur.  There were two reports of sexual assault, neither of which led to charges, possibly due to poor handling by the university.    Jae was the last of the JUCO's, and due to his academic history (detailed in the above articles), as well as a change in administration, the rules for admission to MU became tougher than the NCAA's.

[SaveOD238]

ethnic slur

Vander Orange is an ethnic slur now?

[GGGG]

It wasn't the admission of Jucos that was a problem.  It was the admission of non-qualifying Jucos who had no shot of graduating from MU in two years mostly because it lacks a Phy Ed major.  (Which oftentimes is the major of choice for Jucos.)  Marquette's transfer policy does not accept Phy Ed credits.

Anyone who thinks that the souring of the relationship was entirely the administration's fault, or entirely Buzz's fault, isn't thinking clearly.

[GGGG]

And how much longer are we going to debate this?

SP, LW and Buzz.  All of them are gone.  Lovell, Scholl and Wojo are here and all will undoubtedly be here for awhile.  I mean I get that people like NersTaint are obsessive about it and just can't let it go, but really what point does it serve?

We will find out soon enough how good a coach Wojo is.  Anybody who can declare either way for certain at this point is simply making a prediction based on incomplete evidence.

[Dawson Rental]

And how much longer are we going to debate this?

Ad infinitum, whenever a discussion is triggered by an article like this or by a MU coach trying to get a borderline JUCO admitted (which won't be happening under Wojo).

[Taint]

It wasn't the admission of Jucos that was a problem.  It was the admission of non-qualifying Jucos who had no shot of graduating from MU in two years mostly because it lacks a Phy Ed major.  (Which oftentimes is the major of choice for Jucos.)  Marquette's transfer policy does not accept Phy Ed credits.

Anyone who thinks that the souring of the relationship was entirely the administration's fault, or entirely Buzz's fault, isn't thinking clearly.

Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

And to be clear, I'm glad Wojo got Henry, and consider it his best accomplishment thus far as a coach.  I just feel there is a disconnect when we will admit a one and one, no questions asked - but not a JUCO that will be challenged to graduate.

P.S.:  There is enough evidence, as is the case frequently, when you can evaluate performance, talent, and the "it" factor as it relates to a cocah - Wojo doesn't have "it." NOT a good coach at this point.  Has a long way to go.  His recruiting will/should give him a chance to get us relatively* consistent NCAA appearances, yet that will be the ceiling IMO.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

And to be clear, I'm glad Wojo got Henry, and consider it his best accomplishment thus far as a coach.  I just feel there is a disconnect when we will admit a one and one, no questions asked - but not a JUCO that will be challenged to graduate.

P.S.:  There is enough evidence, as is the case frequently, when you can evaluate performance, talent, and the "it" factor as it relates to a cocah - Wojo doesn't have "it." NOT a good coach at this point.  Has a long way to go.  His recruiting will/should give him a chance to get us relatively* consistent NCAA appearances, yet that will be the ceiling IMO.

LOL. Ners, you haven't changed one bit 

[79Warrior]

Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

And to be clear, I'm glad Wojo got Henry, and consider it his best accomplishment thus far as a coach.  I just feel there is a disconnect when we will admit a one and one, no questions asked - but not a JUCO that will be challenged to graduate.

P.S.:  There is enough evidence, as is the case frequently, when you can evaluate performance, talent, and the "it" factor as it relates to a cocah - Wojo doesn't have "it." NOT a good coach at this point.  Has a long way to go.  His recruiting will/should give him a chance to get us relatively* consistent NCAA appearances, yet that will be the ceiling IMO.

Ners, most of your posts have the ##it factor.

[GGGG]

Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

The big difference of course is that as long as he finishes out the semester, he doesn't hurt our APR like Jae did. 

P.S.:  There is enough evidence, as is the case frequently, when you can evaluate performance, talent, and the "it" factor as it relates to a cocah - Wojo doesn't have "it."

That ranks up there with your "eye test" evaluations. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

There is a big difference between admitting a player who could graduate but will choose not to like Henry and admitting a player who couldn't graduate no matter how hard he tried like Jae.

Its tough because I love Jae as a player and a person. But I agree with the administration's stance. The college degree is the one real tangible payment that college athletes get for all they do for their universities. You take a student who isn't ready academically to benefit from that payment and the university is taking advantage of a kid for his athletic ability.

[brewcity77]

Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

Yes, absolutely. In fact, he still does. As long as he's in good academic standing and on track to graduate is the key here. I absolutely love Jae. One of my favorite players here ever. But I understand the administration's stance on wanting players to be on track to graduate, especially as we've seen teams missing the NCAAs due to APR penalties.

And to be clear, I'm glad Wojo got Henry, and consider it his best accomplishment thus far as a coach.  I just feel there is a disconnect when we will admit a one and one, no questions asked - but not a JUCO that will be challenged to graduate.

Because it's an apples and oranges comparison. Quite simply, staying on track to graduate and never being on track to graduate. One will have no adverse affect on your program, one could.

P.S.:  There is enough evidence, as is the case frequently, when you can evaluate performance, talent, and the "it" factor as it relates to a cocah - Wojo doesn't have "it." NOT a good coach at this point.  Has a long way to go.  His recruiting will/should give him a chance to get us relatively* consistent NCAA appearances, yet that will be the ceiling IMO.

I bet Duke fans were saying the exact same thing when they were trying to run K out his first few years. I know it's unfair to compare anyone to K, but there are plenty of coaches that didn't win immediately and eventually were able to win big. Wojo's recruiting has been good enough that he deserves a chance to prove himself with these players as upperclassmen.

If he can't get to the tourney in the next few years as his guys become juniors and seniors, then it will be time to start considering other options. If he does and starts winning, then maybe he could be one of the greats. But considering he inherited a dumpster fire and turned it into a 20-win team in year two (however questionable some of those were) I'd say there's at least reason to acknowledge legitimate progress.

[Taint]

Yes, absolutely. In fact, he still does. As long as he's in good academic standing and on track to graduate is the key here. I absolutely love Jae. One of my favorite players here ever. But I understand the administration's stance on wanting players to be on track to graduate, especially as we've seen teams missing the NCAAs due to APR penalties.

Because it's an apples and oranges comparison. Quite simply, staying on track to graduate and never being on track to graduate. One will have no adverse affect on your program, one could.

I bet Duke fans were saying the exact same thing when they were trying to run K out his first few years. I know it's unfair to compare anyone to K, but there are plenty of coaches that didn't win immediately and eventually were able to win big. Wojo's recruiting has been good enough that he deserves a chance to prove himself with these players as upperclassmen.

If he can't get to the tourney in the next few years as his guys become juniors and seniors, then it will be time to start considering other options. If he does and starts winning, then maybe he could be one of the greats. But considering he inherited a dumpster fire and turned it into a 20-win team in year two (however questionable some of those were) I'd say there's at least reason to acknowledge legitimate progress.

This seems to be a little obtuse.  I guess I don't understand - Henry can come back but Jae can't?  Does Jae Crowder no longer stand a chance to graduate from Marquette?  Jae can't come back for classes (if for some reason he would want to after likely earning over $75-$100M in his NBA career) and pursue an MU degree - as could Henry?

As for Wojo, I disagree that he inherited a dumpster fire. You can look to the 2-16 ACC Va Tech team Buzz inherited and see what a dumpster fire looks like.  Wojo oddly invested in one-year eligibility guys - Matt Carlino, Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson -  his first year on the job, when he had 3 very talented underclassmen sitting on the bench - yet started freshman Sandy Cohen ahead of those talented 3.  That in turn led to us losing two of the thre, being less experienced this year, and once again missing the NIT with a roster of 7, Top 100 players.

Sure, we can say the jury is out on Wojo as a coach - that's fair.  Yet, if you were to take Buzz's first two years at MU and Wojo's - who gave you greater belief that he'd get the job done?  I know personally, I felt MUCH more confident in Buzz. 

[Taint]

The big difference of course is that as long as he finishes out the semester, he doesn't hurt our APR like Jae did.


That ranks up there with your "eye test" evaluations.

This is not the plan from what I've read.  Leaving for L.A. to begin workouts/draft prep.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I think there is a kernel of truth to what Ners is arguing in that the current system values something that is superior in theory but does not hold up in practice (the end effect of Henry may be the same as Jae - or Lazar for that matter).

I personally think the system should evolve to having a pathway for these kids to chase their dream and come back to finish on the schools dime. it would seem like an equitable trade for the benefits the kids bring to the institutions.