Rich Harden to the Cubs

[Henry Sugar]

geez... this Brewers and Cubs bullcrap is tiresome

both fracking teams made good trades.  

The Harden trade was good for both the Cubs and the A's.  The Sabathia trade was good for both the Indians and the Brewers.  How good is a complete unknown for all four teams.

It's a complete fallacy to assume that one side has to win and one side has to lose in a negotiation.  It's called the "fixed-pie fallacy".

[🏀]

The trade talks have been going on for a while, but always on the back-burner as the Cubs' focus had been on Sabathia. Also, reportedly the reason the deal didn't happen sooner is because Hendry previously had been unwilling to part with Gallagher as part of the trade. The Brewers' acquisition of Sabathia changed his mind.

Hmm... Jayson Stark of ESPN said the Indians were looking for positional players, not pitching. The Brewers had LaPorta, the Cubs had Hoffpauir. What would you take?

[StillAWarrior]

Brewers Gave:
LaPorta - Your second half 2009 season starting first basemen. Prince will be dealt before the trade deadline next year.

LaPorta and Braun were supposed to be the cornerstones of the future. Not anymore.

Brewers Get:
Safathia- 13 more starts out of a premiere #1.


Again, Sabathia never put the Brewers better than the Cubs in the regular season. Playoffs, yes. However, Jim Hendry just made the Cubs better in the playoffs.

Indians fan here.  Hate to see CC go, but he was already gone.  No sense holding him until the end of the season and then losing him

On the issue of what the Brewers gave up, the jury is still out on that one.  I heard the Indians' VP of Baseball Ops on the radio here yesterday and he talked quite a bit about the proverbial "player to be named later."  He said that the PTBNL was a key part of the deal and that the deal would not have happened without the inclusion of PTBNL -- it's not just a throw-in.  He wouldn't say much, but claimed that there is a relatively small list of players that they can choose from.  He suggested that they all are good players and that the Tribe expects PTBNL to be a high quality player.

I'm curious to see who it is.  He didn't give a time-table on identifying PTBNL, but said they would be scouting everyone on the list.  Apparently the Brewers AA team (the Huntsville Stars) is loaded with talent.  Hopefully the tribe can get a good one.

[Pakuni]

Hmm... Jayson Stark of ESPN said the Indians were looking for positional players, not pitching. The Brewers had LaPorta, the Cubs had Hoffpauir. What would you take?

I think there's some confusion here.
I'm saying the reason the A's-Cubs deal didn't happen sooner is because Hendry had been unwilling to give up Gallagher. He changed his tune about that when Sabathia landed in Milwaukee. So, his protestations aside, the deal was a reaction to the Sabathia trade.

[reinko]

Ahh, to live in rose colored glasses of PTM...the only major issue I have with your post is that Harden is as good as anyone out there.  I can name 30-40 pitchers I would rather have than Rich Harden.  I will get that listing going right now:

Beckett, Dice K, Lester, Halladay, Duchscherer, Volquez, Linceum, Santana, Hammels, Harren, Webb, Garza, Kazmir, E. Santana, Sheets, Sabathia, Greinke, Mussina, F. Hernandez, Jurrjins, C. Lee, Oswalt, Peavy, Verlander, Maine, Cook, Hudson, Saunders, Pettite, Buerle, Lohse, Padilla, Floyd, Nolasco, Looper, Garland...and on and on and on

Nice pick up Chub fans...but far from an elite pitcher who would be a #1 on most teams

[robmufan]

Ahh, to live in rose colored glasses of PTM...the only major issue I have with your post is that Harden is as good as anyone out there.  I can name 30-40 pitchers I would rather have than Rich Harden.  I will get that listing going right now:

Beckett, Dice K, Lester, Halladay, Duchscherer, Volquez, Linceum, Santana, Hammels, Harren, Webb, Garza, Kazmir, E. Santana, Sheets, Sabathia, Greinke, Mussina, F. Hernandez, Jurrjins, C. Lee, Oswalt, Peavy, Verlander, Maine, Cook, Hudson, Saunders, Pettite, Buerle, Lohse, Padilla, Floyd, Nolasco, Looper, Garland...and on and on and on

Nice pick up Chub fans...but far from an elite pitcher who would be a #1 on most teams

You would rather have oswalt, who has fallen apart! then a rich harden who is 5-1 with a sub 3 ERA.  OK!

I guarantee you that you wouldn't rather have padilla then harden.

Please!  I could also have named off all the pitchers i know off the top of my head and say I would much rather pay them $10 mil instead of a washed up closer!

[chapman]

Indians fan here.  Hate to see CC go, but he was already gone.  No sense holding him until the end of the season and then losing him

On the issue of what the Brewers gave up, the jury is still out on that one.  I heard the Indians' VP of Baseball Ops on the radio here yesterday and he talked quite a bit about the proverbial "player to be named later."  He said that the PTBNL was a key part of the deal and that the deal would not have happened without the inclusion of PTBNL -- it's not just a throw-in.  He wouldn't say much, but claimed that there is a relatively small list of players that they can choose from.  He suggested that they all are good players and that the Tribe expects PTBNL to be a high quality player.

I'm curious to see who it is.  He didn't give a time-table on identifying PTBNL, but said they would be scouting everyone on the list.  Apparently the Brewers AA team (the Huntsville Stars) is loaded with talent.  Hopefully the tribe can get a good one.

The player to be named is said to be either AA CF Michael Brantley or single A 3B Taylor Green.  Some sources have already reported that it's Green.  A lot of people believe Green was a better 3B prospect for the Brewers than Gamel, since it seems that a lot of people could go out there without a glove and play better defense than Gamel.  Green is still 2-3 years off however.  Brantley doesn't have a whole lot of power, but he can get hits and draw walks and has great speed which fits the mold for center. 

Losing one prospect isn't going to kill the system, especially with 6 of the first 62 overall picks entering this year and, assuming we lose Sheets 5 of the top 35 next year.  I read an article a few days ago that compared Corey Hart's Southern League MVP season to Huntsville's position player All-Stars, and La Porta, Gamel, Escobar, Salome, and Brantley all were well ahead of pace for better numbers across the board and Errecart and Gillespie were close.

It's interesting that the Brewers basically valued La Porta, Alcides Escobar, and Mat Gamel equally when making the deal, and insisted that only one could be included.  Escobar is either going to force Hardy to be traded or to move to second and force Weeks out because he can hit and supposedly has outstanding defense.  Gamel's bat is ready now, but who knows if he'll ever be able to play third.  The weaknesses are major-league ready prospects (AAA Nashville is empty) and an all-around lack of pitching.  The rotation next year is looking like Gallardo, Parra, Suppan, McClung, and Villaneuva or a free agent.  Not very impressive, but there's nobody even close to coming up. 

[Pakuni]

You would rather have oswalt, who has fallen apart! then a rich harden who is 5-1 with a sub 3 ERA.  OK!

There isn't a GM in baseball who wouldn't take Oswalt over Harden.

[reinko]

Fine I'll give you Oswalt, but Padilla is 10-5 on a crappy team.  Care to refute any other of the 32 pitchers, on my list?

My orginal point is that Harden is not an elite pitcher (and never was) and not a #1 on most clubs.  How can someone who never won more than 11 games in one year of his career ever be considered elite, special, or even great.  He is an above average injury-prone pitcher.  

This year he doesn't even average 6 IP per start.  I mean c'mon.

[robmufan]

My orginal point is that Harden is not an elite pitcher (and never was) and not a #1 on most clubs. 

You must know waaaaaayyy more about baseball then those that call harden a legit #1.  I should get advice for my fantasy team from you!

[reinko]

In your opinion, because remember, that's what these message boards are all about, opinion.  Name me the plethora of the major league teams that you believe Rich Harden would be a #1 starter on right now. 

My opinion; Houston, Washington, Pittsburgh, and the Dodgers.

So come back with some witty remark without actually answering or addressing my points and this little pissing match can come to a conclusion.

[robmufan]

I would argue Florida and Oakland are other places he could be a #1. 

But look at it this way, the cubs were looking for a guy to back up Zambrano.  What team wouldn't take a chance on Harden?  I believe the Rays were looking into him, along with the Phillies. 

Another plus side to anyone taking a chance on Harden is he isn't a rental.  To have harden a second year makes the deal incredible!

[IAmMarquette]

Another plus side to anyone taking a chance on Harden is he isn't a rental.  To have harden a second year makes the deal incredible!

Welcome to the world of small-market Major League Baseball.

The Brewers (likely) simply can't afford to pay a guy like Sheets or Sabathia the kind of money each will command in free agency. In fact, Attanasio said in the Sabathia press conference that the team would likely lose money this year, as the payroll has been pushed near $90M with the addition of CC (for some perspective, it was under $40M when Attanasio took over).

So go ahead and call it a "rental" if you want. It probably is. But tell me how adding another ace pitcher--the reigning AL (hands-down the stronger of the 2 leagues) Cy Young winner--to your team before the All-Star Break can be considered a bad deal. ESPECIALLY for a small-market team like the Brewers.

As for Sabathia vs. Harden...
-Sabathia is a legitimate ace for ANY team. He's got the hardware to prove it. Harden, as discussed above, would be a #1 for maybe a third of the teams in the Majors. Certainly nothing to sneeze at, but a Cy Young winner he is not.
-Sabathia is an innings-eater. Along with Sheets, he'll spare the Brewers bullpen down the stretch. Harden, on the other hand, rarely makes it out of the 6th inning, which will put a lot of stress on the Cubs' strong bullpen. The added work will wear them down. It always does.

Harden certainly improves the Cubs' rotation, as does Sabathia for the Brewers. I think the debate of which top 3 starters you'd rather have comes down to which team you cheer for. Realistically, it's a toss up.

All that being said...

THE CUBS ARE EVIL AND MUST BE DESTROYED.

[Wareagle]

Everyone needs to stop citing pitchers' win-loss records when debating how good they are.  Rewarding a pitcher who is the recipient of better run support (a factor out of their control) is ridiculous.  Just look at Roger Clemens in 2005.  If you want to figure out how good they are, WHIP and strikeouts per 9 innings are much better.

W-L 13-8
ERA 1.87 - 1st in NL that year
WHIP 1.008 - 2nd in the NL that year to Pedro Martinez
He also had the fewest hits allowed per 9 innings.

[🏀]

Beckett,Halladay, Duchscherer, Volquez, Linceum, Santana, Hamels, Haren, Webb, Kazmir, E. Santana, Sabathia, F. Hernandez, Peavy, Verlander, Saunders

There's your answer. Lohse and Looper? You sure do know a lot about baseball.

[muwarrior87]

Chapman, I definitely see a different starting rotation than u do for next year.  With Sheets and Sabathia both in the last year of their contracts, it is somewhat likely both are gone. However, after this year if the Brewers make the playoffs, the buzz around Milwaukee will be very big and next year will be another record attendance season barring a complete drop off. Therefore, I can definitely seeing the Crew bringing in a free agent or making an off season trade with the money that will be freed up of both Sheets and Sabathia are gone. Also, with Gagne being gone after this year, that frees up another 10 million so I can definitely see them improving their starting rotation from Gallardo, McClung, Parra, Suppan and Villanueva.

[🏀]

Chapman, I definitely see a different starting rotation than u do for next year.  With Sheets and Sabathia both in the last year of their contracts, it is somewhat likely both are gone. However, after this year if the Brewers make the playoffs, the buzz around Milwaukee will be very big and next year will be another record attendance season barring a complete drop off. Therefore, I can definitely seeing the Crew bringing in a free agent or making an off season trade with the money that will be freed up of both Sheets and Sabathia are gone. Also, with Gagne being gone after this year, that frees up another 10 million so I can definitely see them improving their starting rotation from Gallardo, McClung, Parra, Suppan and Villanueva.

The Brewers will easily have enough to get another pitcher, which they will. The trouble next year is a weak FA market for pitchers.

Jon Garland LAA
Jason Jennings TEX
Randy Johnson ARZ
Pedro Martinez NYM
Jamie Moyer PHI
Andy Pettitte NYY
Julian Tavarez BOS
Steve Trachsel BAL
Brett Tomko KC
Randy Wolf SD

However, Ritchie Sexson is primed for a comeback to Milwaukee to fill Prince's spot!

[jmayer1]

Jon Garland LAA
Jason Jennings TEX
Randy Johnson ARZ
Pedro Martinez NYM
Jamie Moyer PHI
Andy Pettitte NYY
Julian Tavarez BOS
Steve Trachsel BAL
Brett Tomko KC
Randy Wolf SD

Man, that would have been a sweet staff 6 years ago; not so much for most of those guys anymore.  I like Garland but don't think he is worth the $15 million he might get on the open market, although the trend of overpaying every starter has diminished somewhat in recent years.

[IAmMarquette]

ESPN's Jayson Stark offers his opinion... not much there that hasn't already been covered on the board, but I figured I'd post it anyway.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3479086&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos1

[77ncaachamps]

Thank God, Harden's on the Cubs.

I can now sell his auto!