Neither "great," nor a "disaster" -- final grade still to come

[MU82]

Hi again everybody.

I decided to take a few days off from Scoop after our Warriors ended the regular season with a thud. I felt plenty bad already, and I didn't think I needed to punish myself even more.

I haven't gone back and read much Scoop since I was last on the site -- nobody deserves that kind of punishment -- but I did go back and read the entire "Hell of a regular season" thread.

That was an interesting one, because we had 6 pages in which folks stated that 2018-19 has been anything from a "great" to an "unmitigated disaster" (and everything in between).

Being both an optimist when it comes to MU hoops and a pragmatist in my overall thought processes, I reside somewhere in the middle of those extremes.

As I sit here today, three days removed from our 4th straight loss and two days before our BEast tournament opener, I'd label the season "good." Certainly not great, obviously not a disaster. Mostly, I'd rate it "incomplete," because there are still chapters to be written.

I have gotten a lot of joy and excitement from watching this season's Warriors. I also have been frustrated at times, like all of us have been. All in all, for me anyway, the thrills have vastly outweighed the spills.

Here's a quickie look at the principal parties of MU hoops ...

Markus: I think he got tuckered out, and I hope the 5-day stretch between games rejuvenates him. I agree with everybody who wishes he was better at finding his teammates, especially when he's closely defended, but it just isn't who he is. So I look it as having to take the little bit of bad with the considerable good.

Sam: I wish he'd play in the post a little more. Very effective down there, and gets him more involved. He's too good to just stand at the 3-point line, like our version of Danny Green or Kyle Korver. He's had a very good all-around season, as we all knew he would. Still, he did have a chance to hit big 3s in each of our 4 losses but couldn't do it. This just in: He's human!

Joey: Nowhere near the player the second half of the season that he was in the first half. I'm at least a little buoyed by the way he confidently stepped into that big 3 at the end of the GT game; maybe a sign of things to come this March? I still think he's going to be a stud during his time at MU, probably as early as next season.

Theo: Quite a defensive force when he avoids the silly fouls. Can get a lot better as he learns when not to go for fakes, when not to foul while reaching for rebounds he can't get, etc.

Sacar: Had a nice stretch where he looked like a great backcourt complement to Markus, but lately has maybe settled a little too much for the outside shot while not doing quite as much driving. Improved a ton this season, though.

Ed: Has played very well the second half of the season. Not a great finisher, but a beast on the boards.

BB: Has definitely improved his all-around game. Could be a wild card for us in the tournaments.

Wojo: Some consider results of close games to be one way to measure a coach; we won a ton of 'em the first half of the season, lost 5 in the second half. He and his assistants never could get Markus to have more of a "PG mentality." Has maximized the center position. Our defense is so much better this season the difference is staggering. I could go on and on with the pluses and minuses, so I'll stop and just say that at this point I give Wojo a solid B -- to me that means he's been "good," like the rest of the team. I can understand why some might grade him a little lower because he still hasn't really delivered anything tangible in 5 years (no BEast title, no NCAA tourney wins). I have a harder time with those who think he rates a D-minus; they're letting frustrations take over.

To me, it's almost been 3 different seasons:

++ The first 5 games, during which we got blown out at Indiana and blew a big lead against Kansas -- resulting in many Scoopers losing their shyte and proclaiming that the program never would go anywhere under Wojo.

++ The next 22 games, in which our only losses were to St. John's, we reached as high as #9 and it looked like we had a chance to get a 2-seed (and no worse than 3). We beat numerous ranked teams, including hated F%cky and the defending champs. We won 3x with Markus scoring 45+, and we won at GT with Markus playing only 3 minutes. We won with Sam and Joey playing so well that Scoopers proclaimed their "love" of all things Hauser, and we beat Nova despite the SPASHers combining for only 4 points. We had a couple of "lucky" wins but also plenty of impressive ones. We finally could beat teams with our defense. We had a lot of different heroes, and many of our biggest arguments were about SOTG. Some of Wojo's harshest critics conceded that he was doing a good job, and the handful of Scoopers who tend to only show up to beyotch when things are bad had fallen silent.

++ The last 4 games. Ugh.

Believe me, I do understand the frustrations of many Scoopers. I thought Lenny's post in the "hell of a season" thread -- about how expectations naturally change over the course of a season -- was spot-on. It's impossible for any even semi-objective observer to not be disappointed by the last 2 weeks; I can see why "Yeah, but we were 23-4" is of little consolation.

Like many of you, I have been watching sports as a pretty close observer for a long, long time. In every sport at every level, I have seen seasons that looked like trash get turned around, and seasons that looked great turn to trash. I also have seen seasons that had several stretches of greatness and trashiness. In a thread a little while back, many of us had a great discussion about Al's championship season -- that team was almost left for dead in February.

We obviously are still a pretty talented, competitive team. If not, we wouldn't have been close enough in those last 4 games (especially the 3 turnover-filled ones) to be in position to lose at the end. I am NOT saying it's OK that we lost at the end, just stating my opinion that those results do not necessarily mean that all is lost.

We had a lively thread last week about Seton Hall's chances against Nova. So many Scoopers were so convinced that SH had ZERO chance to win that game. That discussion reinforced in my mind that many of us aren't very good at predicting outcomes. It also reinforced how close, top-to-bottom, this conference is this season.

So while I'm not quite optimistic enough (and too pragmatic) to predict that the Warriors will go on our third 8-game winning streak of the season -- which would put us to the national title game -- I don't think it's overly optimistic to believe March could still be fun and exciting for us.

There is still every reason to believe we are as good as any team in this conference (and better than most), and therefore it's realistic to believe we can win the BET. And we will be favored in at least our first NCAA tournament game.

So put me in the "cautiously optimistic" category about the rest of this season. And I'm sure as heck not ready to hand out my final grade.

[fjm]

Well said.

I also took a break from scoop.
Yep. 4 straight losses sucks.

But the rest of the season has been a real solid success. The team might not find their footing again this year and that would really really suck.

But I’m very hopeful! I’ll be in NYC rooting them on

[Lennys Tap]

Good post, Mike. Agree with virtually everything.

Season was an "A". After flunking some quizzes/test our 96 average has dipped to an 86. But the BET and the NCAA tournaments await and count for 30-50% of our final grade depending on one's opinion. We still can get the "A". Or not. TBD.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Thought you got banned for posting nonsense on the Superbar?

[Shooter McGavin]

Great post.  I share your cautious optimism for this post season but not betting the farm on it.

[Goose]

I agree on holding out grades until this season is complete. At this point, I believe they exceeded my expectations in regards to record and by hefty margin. If season ended last Saturday, they would get an A from me. That said, I am looking at this in bigger picture view and I would go Wojo's program a C or C-. IMO, there are many pieces to the puzzle still missing. More troubling to me, this is five years into his time here.

I was thinking over the weekend that I am still not sure of what type of team/style Wojo is putting together here. Every great program seems to have an identity, from full court press, to run and gun, to slowdown offense and the list goes on and on. To me, Wojo has put together a three point shooting identity, but if so, has not fully bought into his own style. To be a three point shooting team you need a slew of guys capable of making them (Bucks for example) and Mu does not have that. Again, if someone asked me to describe Wojo's team style/identity I could not provide a real solid answer aside from he recruits good kids.

I would be curious to hear other thoughts on Wojo's style of ball. Again, I think you need to have a style and recruit kids that fit that style. At this point I am not sure who should be recruiting besides a big time PG.

[tower912]

I agree on holding out grades until this season is complete. At this point, I believe they exceeded my expectations in regards to record and by hefty margin. If season ended last Saturday, they would get an A from me. That said, I am looking at this in bigger picture view and I would go Wojo's program a C or C-. IMO, there are many pieces to the puzzle still missing. More troubling to me, this is five years into his time here.

I was thinking over the weekend that I am still not sure of what type of team/style Wojo is putting together here. Every great program seems to have an identity, from full court press, to run and gun, to slowdown offense and the list goes on and on. To me, Wojo has put together a three point shooting identity, but if so, has not fully bought into his own style. To be a three point shooting team you need a slew of guys capable of making them (Bucks for example) and Mu does not have that. Again, if someone asked me to describe Wojo's team style/identity I could not provide a real solid answer aside from he recruits good kids.

I would be curious to hear other thoughts on Wojo's style of ball. Again, I think you need to have a style and recruit kids that fit that style. At this point I am not sure who should be recruiting besides a big time PG.

He is still playing Duke style with Marquette players.     As the recruits and players improve, so will the product on the floor.   

[MU82]

Thought you got banned for posting nonsense on the Superbar?

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but you thought wrong.

[Goose]

Tower

Duke style? I must be missing something.

[fjm]

Goose,

Decent synopsis.
I would give this season an a had we won last weekend.
I now have us at a B with a solid possibility to move to a A- 

Having a BEast championship slip away is painful. And I get that Kenny states expectations shift as the season moves on. But my season Hope was almost exactly what we have now. 2nd in the BEast and a 5-6 seed for the NCAA.

I would say a lot of people would have taken that before the season started. The problem is no one expected 4L’s to end it.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I took a break until today also to cool off myself.

Cautiously optimistic.  I hope Wojo gave the team a few days off to clear everything  Kind of like baseball when a player is in a hitting slump and they only way to reboot him is to just sit him out a few days and let him come back refreshed with a new mind set.
We'll see Thursday.

[tower912]

My expectations going into the season were 22-24 regular season wins, top 3 in the Big East, 5 seed in the dance.    So, my expectations were spot on.    So far, IMO, Wojo is closer to Crean than Buzz in coaching ability.     Let me try to explain.   Looking back, barring injuries,  Crean's teams either met expectations or came up just short, based on the talent he had.  Crean only won one tourney game without Wade on his team in 9 years.    Solid regular season records.    His recruiting classes were erratic, rarely two good ones in a row.  (Matthews, Bell, Mason, Christian?!?!?!)   I have written it elsewhere, but in hindsight, he was a 'paint by numbers' coach.    Only rarely was a true spark of genius seen (Grimm on Tucker).

Buzz's teams seemed to outperform expectations.   We all loved Gardner, Cadougan, Lockett...   hell, Buzz got to the postseason with a backcourt of Acker and Cubillan and no starter over 6'6.  IMO, he had a superior ability to make the team greater than the sum of its parts.    He was an artist or an alchemist.     He made lack of size a virtue and.... forced Huggins into playing differently than he wanted to....    faked out Brad at the end of the MU/Butler tourney game.... made Crowder matched up against Drummond an advantage for MU.    Rarely developing HS players and a wandering soul were his problems.    As well as not being in sync with administration. 

Every year under Wojo, the team has met my expectations.   No better, no worse.    Either I am getting better at assessing talent, or Wojo has not yet developed the ability to make his teams greater than the sum of their parts.    To me, he seems to be like Crean in that regard.   I think he still has room to grow, though.   

This season has been a B.    The final regular season record was what I expected.    How it came to be was both more exhilarating (20-2!) and more painful (giving up what felt like 20-2 runs to each team at the end) than I anticipated.     I have seen enough from Wojo to want to keep him.   He is recruiting good players and good citizens.     I have not yet seen what I would characterize as 'magic'.

[MU82]

I agree on holding out grades until this season is complete. At this point, I believe they exceeded my expectations in regards to record and by hefty margin. If season ended last Saturday, they would get an A from me. That said, I am looking at this in bigger picture view and I would go Wojo's program a C or C-. IMO, there are many pieces to the puzzle still missing. More troubling to me, this is five years into his time here.

I was thinking over the weekend that I am still not sure of what type of team/style Wojo is putting together here. Every great program seems to have an identity, from full court press, to run and gun, to slowdown offense and the list goes on and on. To me, Wojo has put together a three point shooting identity, but if so, has not fully bought into his own style. To be a three point shooting team you need a slew of guys capable of making them (Bucks for example) and Mu does not have that. Again, if someone asked me to describe Wojo's team style/identity I could not provide a real solid answer aside from he recruits good kids.

I would be curious to hear other thoughts on Wojo's style of ball. Again, I think you need to have a style and recruit kids that fit that style. At this point I am not sure who should be recruiting besides a big time PG.

Interesting post, Goose.

I'd say this year is close to the style he wants to play defensively: competitive, mostly fundamentally sound, with a rim protector and good rebounders. Not as athletic as we need, especially at the wings, to be to completely implement it, but very good progress toward it.

Offensively, he has not had a true high-major PG in 5 years so it's not easy to determine what he wants our identity to be on that end of the court. That's on Wojo, of course, because he's the guy in charge of personnel. I think he wants to be able to go inside-out, with several outstanding shooters and capable posts. That, of course, gives him a lot in common with many other coaches.

When we were at our best offensively the previous 2 seasons, with Rowsey facilitating, Sam and Markus (and Rowsey and sometimes Reinhardt and JJJ) hitting 3s, occasionally getting out on the break, etc, that's close. But those teams had defensive shortcomings due to personnel, and no amount of offense could overcome them.

I think he has been a good recruiter but not great, because I agree with you that we aren't quite athletic enough. I am one who believes Sam is more athletic than many give him credit for, and Markus, BB and Theo are good athletes in their own way. Next season, we add 2-3 pretty athletic perimeter players (depending upon what Symir does), and we (hopefully) benefit from improvement of Joey, BB and Theo. Hopefully one of the newcomers can give us a true PG, and hopefully Wojo seals the deal with a couple of the big recruits that the Crystal Bowel say we've got a great shot at. That's a little more "hope" than I wish we were talking about, but I'm optimistic.

Although I can understand the frustration with it "taking too long," I still do think Wojo is on the right path and I am bullish long-term on Marquette basketball.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

...........seals the deal with a couple of the big recruits that the Crystal Bowel say we've got a great shot at.

Make your own joke here............

[Spotcheck Billy]

I agree on holding out grades until this season is complete. At this point, I believe they exceeded my expectations in regards to record and by hefty margin. If season ended last Saturday, they would get an A from me. That said, I am looking at this in bigger picture view and I would go Wojo's program a C or C-. IMO, there are many pieces to the puzzle still missing. More troubling to me, this is five years into his time here.

I was thinking over the weekend that I am still not sure of what type of team/style Wojo is putting together here. Every great program seems to have an identity, from full court press, to run and gun, to slowdown offense and the list goes on and on. To me, Wojo has put together a three point shooting identity, but if so, has not fully bought into his own style. To be a three point shooting team you need a slew of guys capable of making them (Bucks for example) and Mu does not have that. Again, if someone asked me to describe Wojo's team style/identity I could not provide a real solid answer aside from he recruits good kids.

I would be curious to hear other thoughts on Wojo's style of ball. Again, I think you need to have a style and recruit kids that fit that style. At this point I am not sure who should be recruiting besides a big time PG.

Perhaps Wojo is catering the style of play to the types/abilities of the players on the roster each year. No singular style because the strengths/weaknesses of each year's roster. Last year they couldn't defend so it was outscore opponents with Rowsey and Markus.

[Goose]

MU82

While I often point the need for better athletes on the team, there is a bigger need for athletic basketball players. Being athletic is great, but being a baller is equally as important. IMO, a great program picks a style and recruits players that fit style. It looks to me that Wojo is picking guys with different skill sets and unable to blend them together.

If I was him, I would pick my preferred style of play and build around it. That probably is my biggest gripe with him and state of program. Aside from everyone saying we have 8-9 guys back next year and the will improve over the summer, I do not see a program building plan in place. To coach up 8-9 guys, all with different needs for improvement, vs. picking a style and coaching up aspect of the game, seems like a lot of work and wasted time.


While Wojo provided a knockout PPT to the brass, I do not see any long term blueprint for sustainability within the basketball team. The thing that sticks out to me the most over his five years is that he has had three big time chuckers of the ball. Other than that and having good kids on the team, I do not see one common thread in type of player recruited that builds a real foundation.

Lastly, we are in year five and how many games did they need one or two guys to score 50, 60, 70% of their points to win a close game. That is not great recruiting or coaching, that is flat out luck.

[KampusFoods]

Perhaps Wojo is catering the style of play to the types/abilities of the players on the roster each year. No singular style because the strengths/weaknesses of each year's roster. Last year they couldn't defend so it was outscore opponents with Rowsey and Markus.

This is what high school coaches do, because they don't (usually) get to recruit their players. They base their style of play on the kids who make the team. Two 6'8" guys this year? Let's pound it inside. No one over 6'3 this year? Let's light it up from deep. And so on. They keep some basic principles but generally cater their playbook to the personnel, and not vice versa.

This shouldn't be the case for a high major college coach because he gets to recruit whatever type of player he wants. We seem to have some good puzzle pieces, but they don't exactly fit together.

That said, we're close to being really good. I think we had a pretty good year. I predicted 22-9 and a 7 seed in the preseason, and that's when I thought Chartouny had value.

Next year should be better, but the book isn't closed on this season yet. Win Thursday and things can change in a hurry.

[Goose]

Kampus Foods

I would argue that is what good high school programs used to do. Now, with youth programs good coaches are using youth teams to play their style of ball. You want to be great defensive team, recruit defensive players...want to be chuckers, recruit chuckers, really makes no difference on what the style is, just embrace it. IMO, the only common bonds between the Hausers, Howard, Theo and pick anyone else is they are good kids and play basketball at MU. In addition, they really do not compliment each other a whole lot on the court. The Hausers compliment each other, but who else makes other guys better?

Furthermore, it is not like each of these kids were recruited to fit a final piece of championship run team. It seems to me that Wojo recruits a thousand kids and takes who he can. Proof of that to me, the guy they brought in this year to play PG. Everyone gets on me for negative, but really, I just want to see a repeatable plan.

[Silent Verbal]

My favorite part of the OP is that you actually acknowledged those who are frustrated and said you understand where they’re coming from.  If you ask some people on here, there’s absolutely nothing to be concerned about, and even the slightest suggestion that Wojo might not be the man for the job will get you ridiculed and shouted down.  It’s frustrating when people can’t look at things objectively, so I appreciated your fairly objective take.

For me, I want to see Wojo win at least one tournament game this year.  I could care less if it’s a crapshoot or that we were 23-4 at one point and are trending upward as a program and might have a good 2020 recruiting class and Buzz cheated and whatever else someone wants to say to steer the conversation in another direction.  Tournament wins are arguably the best measure of a program’s success, if only because March is when college basketball is most visible.  I want to see Wojo get his first NCAA victory.  Anything less, even if we win the BET, will be a disappointment for me.  After five years at the helm, I don’t think that’s too much to ask of our coach.

[Goose]

Research Report

I am definitely in the minority on this, but I would sacrifice March success for long term success. Winning a game or two this March would be great, but I would rather have a system in place that is close to surefire for next season and beyond. I think this team is better than last year, but not as much as record indicates. Next year, they might be a tad better and have record, but not going to be world beaters.
 
Building a program is a hard job and I do not feel Wojo, or any Duke alum, were well suited for that job. They have never seen anything other than cherry picking recruits and winning big. Someone mentioned we play Duke style and he might be right. Unfortunately Wojo is cherry picking Joe C at PG and hoping Theo John can play 20 minutes without fouling out.

[Shooter McGavin]

MU82

While I often point the need for better athletes on the team, there is a bigger need for athletic basketball players. Being athletic is great, but being a baller is equally as important. IMO, a great program picks a style and recruits players that fit style. It looks to me that Wojo is picking guys with different skill sets and unable to blend them together.

If I was him, I would pick my preferred style of play and build around it. That probably is my biggest gripe with him and state of program. Aside from everyone saying we have 8-9 guys back next year and the will improve over the summer, I do not see a program building plan in place. To coach up 8-9 guys, all with different needs for improvement, vs. picking a style and coaching up aspect of the game, seems like a lot of work and wasted time.


While Wojo provided a knockout PPT to the brass, I do not see any long term blueprint for sustainability within the basketball team. The thing that sticks out to me the most over his five years is that he has had three big time chuckers of the ball. Other than that and having good kids on the team, I do not see one common thread in type of player recruited that builds a real foundation.

Lastly, we are in year five and how many games did they need one or two guys to score 50, 60, 70% of their points to win a close game. That is not great recruiting or coaching, that is flat out luck.

Goose,

Great post.  You and I have the same concerns for the direction of the program under Wojo.  This still could go either way.  My hope is that with some success at getting to the NCAA tournament and hopefully winning a game or two with a flawed roster will lead to better roster construction and a better vision of how he plans for us to succeed at the highest level.  The shorterm success he required for some cache on the recruiting trail (despite the last four losses in a row) started to accelerate this year and will continue into next.  If he takes advantage and the recruiting to the next level, it will be a great ride.  If not, your fear (and many others) of a lack of direction may be accurate. 

[Silent Verbal]

Goose,

Those are all good points and I agree that it’s hard to put a finger on exactly what style or type of player Wojo is all about.  With Buzz, it was obvious.  Athletic switchables who were tough as nails.  Not great shooters, for the most part, but they’d almost always win the “rock fight” type of games. 

Like you said, programs such as Duke, Kansas, and UNC can just cherry pick the best players.  MU will never have that luxury.  I think most of us are realistic enough to realize that, so style of play and type of player recruited become more important.

Now all that being said, a tourney victory for me would at least be something positive to build on for next year and help the program’s mojo going forward.  It’s been six years since we’ve won an NCAA game, and we badly need some success in that regard.

[Cheeks]

My favorite part of the OP is that you actually acknowledged those who are frustrated and said you understand where they’re coming from.  If you ask some people on here, there’s absolutely nothing to be concerned about, and even the slightest suggestion that Wojo might not be the man for the job will get you ridiculed and shouted down.  It’s frustrating when people can’t look at things objectively, so I appreciated your fairly objective take.

For me, I want to see Wojo win at least one tournament game this year.  I could care less if it’s a crapshoot or that we were 23-4 at one point and are trending upward as a program and might have a good 2020 recruiting class and Buzz cheated and whatever else someone wants to say to steer the conversation in another direction.  Tournament wins are arguably the best measure of a program’s success, if only because March is when college basketball is most visible.  I want to see Wojo get his first NCAA victory.  Anything less, even if we win the BET, will be a disappointment for me.  After five years at the helm, I don’t think that’s too much to ask of our coach.

Don't agree at all with your statement in first paragraph.  There is ALWAYS something to be concerned about, I don't care if you are Kentucky, Duke, UNC, MU or Gonzaga.  We get why the old timers see things differently, but we also don't understand why the old timers haven't also realized the world changed.  I consider myself a bridge having worked in the department knowing some of the people that got us to the mountain, but also working in what became of college basketball and athletics in general. 

I have no doubt in my mind if Scoop was around in the 70's the bitching and gnashing would be every bit as crazy.  We had some epic burnouts that people seem to forget.  Some losses that NEVER should have happened if using the logic of today back then....especially back then considering the talent.

We have four RSCI guys on this team, none of them better than 50th if I recall.  We have talent, but we still don't have the talent many other programs have.  You have to win and prove it before adding to that talent....patience is not a strong suit of this board because we have been at the top of the mountain decades ago and because there are those that don't care about clean program, they just want results.  Thus, they see other programs turn the corner quicker with lesser standards and say why not us.  Sorry, but MU isn't going that direction.  They want winning and clean, and that's the deal.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I hope Wojo gave the team a few days off to clear everything  Kind of like baseball when a player is in a hitting slump and they only way to reboot him is to just sit him out a few days and let him come back refreshed with a new mind set.
We'll see Thursday.

This guy had a different method.

[MU82]

Good conversation.

Goose, I agree with much of what you say, but I disagree that Wojo is incapable of building a consistent winner here. I know you didn't say that exactly, but it is what you seem to be suggesting.

Danny Manning, whom many wanted, is about to get fired after 5 piss-poor years at Wake Forest, a historically decent-to-good basketball school in a great conference. Buzz Williams went to Va Tech and turned things around pretty quickly. Again, those are extremes; most coaches fall in the middle. I would argue that Wojo is in the upper end of that middle -- about equal to or a notch above Shaka. I do believe Wojo has improved as a coach in every phase and will continue to do so.

I think that early on, some Scoopers decided that Wojo probably wouldn't get it done while some felt he would. And those in the first camp look at this season as proof that he won't get it done while those of us in the second camp look at this season as a sign that he can. And those different viewpoints are the most interesting thing about the conversation.

As for the recruits Wojo has brought in and sought ...

He has gone after several 5-stars and has missed on all but the one whose brother he brought in. But his backup plans were pretty decent: Howard, whom many felt would have been a 5-star (or high-4) if he had made it known he would graduate HS at 17; both Hausers, one of whom was obviously under-recruited and one whom was recruited as if a 5-star; Theo, a big man who could be coached up, etc.

If I'm not mistaken, you have repeatedly voiced your love for the Hausers, to the point of saying you think they will be NBA players, but now they're not adequate enough for Marquette? If that's not at all what you are suggesting, I sincerely apologize in advance.

I still maintain that the inability to recruit a real PG has hurt a lot to date. He has had to make do with mediocrities (Derrick, Traci), tiny gunners forced to play out of position (Rowsey, Markus), not-ready-for-prime-time grad transfers (JCS), etc. Again, I'm not absolving him -- he's the CEO of this operation and he brought those guys in (all but Derrick) -- but it's a fact.

If McEwen is as good as some claim, and if Symir is as good as he looks -- 2 big ifs -- that could help a lot. Two athletic, taller, real PGs to run the offense and defend the other team's PG.

Obviously, we both want what's best for the program. I am very realistic -- we will NEVER get back to the Al days, but I do think Wojo can get us to the level of success we had under Buzz. You seem to feel that is highly unlikely, and that's your prerogative.

On this, I sure hope I'm right and you're wrong because starting over in 2-3 years with a new coach is not a very attractive prospect IMHO!

[fjm]

Don't agree at all with your statement in first paragraph.  There is ALWAYS something to be concerned about, I don't care if you are Kentucky, Duke, UNC, MU or Gonzaga.  We get why the old timers see things differently, but we also don't understand why the old timers haven't also realized the world changed.  I consider myself a bridge having worked in the department knowing some of the people that got us to the mountain, but also working in what became of college basketball and athletics in general. 

I have no doubt in my mind if Scoop was around in the 70's the bitching and gnashing would be every bit as crazy.  We had some epic burnouts that people seem to forget.  Some losses that NEVER should have happened if using the logic of today back then....especially back then considering the talent.

We have four RSCI guys on this team, none of them better than 50th if I recall.  We have talent, but we still don't have the talent many other programs have.  You have to win and prove it before adding to that talent....patience is not a strong suit of this board because we have been at the top of the mountain decades ago and because there are those that don't care about clean program, they just want results.  Thus, they see other programs turn the corner quicker with lesser standards and say why not us.  Sorry, but MU isn't going that direction.  They want winning and clean, and that's the deal.

I think this is my favorite thing you’ve ever posted.

You really touch on a lot.

And to be fair, I’m one of the younger and when I look at this team I see success and upward improvement.

Better than last year! Didn’t lose to DePaul.

Better than two years ago? Check... ranked #10 at one point. Much better D. Much more confident in our possible post season ability.

Better than the other 2 years. My word... yes. Not even going to get into that.

Work left to do? You’re damn right there is.

The thing is, if we separated the wins from the losses, sure we’ve had some crummy losses here recently for a number of reasons. But I still see this as a possible elite 8 team if they can get back to what they were doing vs Kstate, Buffalo,Sconnie, and much of the BEast. (Having said that, I’m also concerned over 2 possible one and dones).

[Goose]

MU82
Good post. First off, I believe the Hausers are the backbone of the program and guys I would recruit would be players that compliment them. Again, my biggest point is the lack of a system installed by Wojo in five years. If I were Wojo I would build a system similar to UW. It appears that he is comfortable with that type of player and I would build off that system. Problem is, if he did that now it would like be starting all over again. That lies that biggest error Wojo made, IMO.

If I were coach, I would build off the Buzz system and recruit those types of players. Both can be successful, but I think you have to be a helluva coach to blend the two.

This then goes to recruiting. Wojo all styles and levels of players and it is hard to mesh them together. I love he goes after five stars, but ending up Theo and Joe C is a far cry from landing the big boys.

I bet my buddy at work that this thread would die or my system/style premise would be ignored. I challenge any pro Wojo fan to outline the game plan Wojo has in place for long term success based off kind of player recruited or style of play. He has done a decent job with the guys he has got, but it is not a sustainable system, IMO.

Markus Howard, like him or not, has either kept them in games or won games with crazy scoring. That is not a system or coaching, but rather, a one man gang.

For the record, I do not know if I would fire Wojo. But, if I were his boss, I would want a PPT outlining a sustainable path to success. Five years in and hoping a 5-9 scores 60 and limits turnovers is too risky for me.

Again, I would love to hear the pro Wojo guys thoughts on this. I have tried not to come across as negative, and truthfully, I am not against Wojo. I do not believe that two fans can answer my question in same way, aside from saying he recruits good kids.

[dgies9156]

I'd give the team a B- for this year, pending the tournament.

Good side was some signature wins and a long winning streak that included some games we had no business winning (can anyone say we deserved to win at Creighton with a straight face?).

Last four games took us from an A- to a B- and we could go lower if we do not beat St. John's in the NIT.

What scares me about this team is we're incomplete. We seem flustered at times and even lose poise. After watching the last four games, I'm also wondering if conditioning is an issue. We really seemed flat in the last five minutes of the games.

One of Scoop's areas of concern that's not mine is Coach Wojo. I think he's learning to be a head coach and his progression year over year has been good. As long as we can continue to make him happy, I'm optimistic that he will learn from his mistakes and grow -- just like all of us do. We still have plenty of work to do to be elite but Coach Wojo is our's and I'm seeing a better coach now than I did even two years ago.

Brothers Goose and MU82, thanks for the analysis.

[Goose]

I was just thinking about the greatness of Al’s system. He stressed tough nose D, half court offense, recruited studs and took in grinders. Best part of his system, he taught studs to be grinders, not grinders how to be studs. Right now Wojo needs to coach up grinders.

Not saying Al’s system would work today, but it was great system. A lot less work trying to get studs to be happy playing D, than trying to make Sacar into a three point shooter, Theo into serviceable offense player or Howard how to play PG.

[MU82]

MU82
Good post. First off, I believe the Hausers are the backbone of the program and guys I would recruit would be players that compliment them. Again, my biggest point is the lack of a system installed by Wojo in five years. If I were Wojo I would build a system similar to UW. It appears that he is comfortable with that type of player and I would build off that system. Problem is, if he did that now it would like be starting all over again. That lies that biggest error Wojo made, IMO.

If I were coach, I would build off the Buzz system and recruit those types of players. Both can be successful, but I think you have to be a helluva coach to blend the two.

This then goes to recruiting. Wojo all styles and levels of players and it is hard to mesh them together. I love he goes after five stars, but ending up Theo and Joe C is a far cry from landing the big boys.

I bet my buddy at work that this thread would die or my system/style premise would be ignored. I challenge any pro Wojo fan to outline the game plan Wojo has in place for long term success based off kind of player recruited or style of play. He has done a decent job with the guys he has got, but it is not a sustainable system, IMO.

Markus Howard, like him or not, has either kept them in games or won games with crazy scoring. That is not a system or coaching, but rather, a one man gang.

For the record, I do not know if I would fire Wojo. But, if I were his boss, I would want a PPT outlining a sustainable path to success. Five years in and hoping a 5-9 scores 60 and limits turnovers is too risky for me.

Again, I would love to hear the pro Wojo guys thoughts on this. I have tried not to come across as negative, and truthfully, I am not against Wojo. I do not believe that two fans can answer my question in same way, aside from saying he recruits good kids.

Five years in and hoping a 5-9 scores 60 and limits turnovers is too risky for me.


Goose, as a writer I applaud intentional hyperbole. Surprised you didn't say Markus is 5-4 and that we need him to score 100. Maybe 4-11 and we need him to score 125!

Anyhoo ...

I believe Wojo's preferred "system" is first to play great defense; he has seen how having a lousy defense can undermine even a historically good offense. I think we have made great strides there, improving significantly as personnel allowed. Offensively, it's to get the best recruits he can, to gradually bring in good athletes but mostly very good basketball players. I do think he wants to shoot a lot of 3s and also run some, and to do that consistently well a team needs more playmakers.

That's what I think he wants based on interviews I've seen and based on what I've seen on the court. Not sure if that meets your standard or not for describing what his "system" should be, but it's the best I've got.

For the record, I do not know if I would fire Wojo.

For the record, you wouldn't fire Wojo if you were pretty much any non-blueblood university president in the country. His teams have improved, they play exciting ball, the arena is mostly full, they will have gone NCAA-NIT-NCAA in the last three years, next year's team should be better, more good recruits are in the pipeline, and his kids are good representatives of the university.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I was just thinking about the greatness of Al’s system. He stressed tough nose D, half court offense, recruited studs and took in grinders. Best part of his system, he taught studs to be grinders, not grinders how to be studs. Right now Wojo needs to coach up grinders.

Not saying Al’s system would work today, but it was great system. A lot less work trying to get studs to be happy playing D, than trying to make Sacar into a three point shooter, Theo into serviceable offense player or Howard how to play PG.

I was going to ask what you believed Al’s system to be so we had that context.

I’m not sure that is a system. At least it’s not meaningfully different than the system that majority of programs run.

Get great players...check
Play good defense...check
Make great players play really hard...check
Make sure everyone understands their role...check

The whole “system” thing rang hollow to me and now that has been confirmed.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Tower is right. Wojo is trying to emulate Duke's Motion offense. Four out, one in, continual cuts and screens through the middle of the floor. These theoretically open up lanes for driving and drive/kick opportunities. It also tends to open the floor for those free throw line jumpers that Joey and Sam love to take. Think Christian Laettner and how many of those same types of jumpers he used to take.

The challenge that I've seen with Wojo using this at Marquette is that we haven't had enough strong drivers to take advantage. The drive doesn't get the respect needed and the defense stays at home on shooters. That's why when Sacar has played well, our offense has looked the best. Because he makes them pay for staying at home which forces them to adjust and then opens up three point shots.

Offensive system is not something I am worried about with Wojo. We've been a top 10% offense each of the last three years. Having a talented scorer like Howard doesn't achieve that on its own, though it helps. I've been more worried about defensive systems, though once he got the personnel, a lot of those concerns went away.

Like Tower, my biggest concern is that each season Wojo has just met my expectations. He was exceeding them this season until the recent 4 game stretch. I'm not sure he has the ability to make a team better than the sum of its parts. If that is true, then recruiting needs to be at a high level. I'm a bit higher on his recruiting than you are, but not as high as many seem to be. The McEwen and Elliott experiment next season will be a deciding factor in Wojo's tenure IMHO. If they are the drivers that we have been missing to make the Duke Motion Offense work, then I think we will see a lot of concerns put to rest. 2020 class will be big as well. He's had some good classes but 2020 will be the chance to put together an elite class. I like how it has started, let's see if he can finish it.

[Jockey]

I was going to ask what you believed Al’s system to be so we had that context.

I’m not sure that is a system. At least it’s not meaningfully different than the system that majority of programs run.

Get great players...check
Play good defense...check
Make great players play really hard...check
Make sure everyone understands their role...check

The whole “system” thing rang hollow to me and now that has been confirmed.

I think the bolded was the key part and he did that very simply. He tried to recruit one stud a year and he always tried to make his senior stud the star of the team. There were a couple times when he had to change when he had a guard like Butch or the Dream, but even then he tried to emphasize his senior star. everyone new their time would come.

I don't think that would work today, however, as top players expect to be showcased as freshmen.

[4everwarriors]

Kant believe da OP used da "B" word in his first post, hey?

[fjm]

Amazing. 2nd place in a high major conference (yep a down year waaah waaah) and we are talking about firing a coach!? Nice. Seems like a totally level headed idea. (Eyeroll.gif)

[MU82]

I was just thinking about the greatness of Al’s system. He stressed tough nose D, half court offense, recruited studs and took in grinders. Best part of his system, he taught studs to be grinders, not grinders how to be studs. Right now Wojo needs to coach up grinders.

Not saying Al’s system would work today, but it was great system. A lot less work trying to get studs to be happy playing D, than trying to make Sacar into a three point shooter, Theo into serviceable offense player or Howard how to play PG.

Love ya, Goose, but Al's "system" was successfully recruiting some of the best players in the country -- players he had access to in great part because a lot of programs still had quotas of the number of black players they'd accept.

We've had countless threads here on Marquette's GOATs, and Scoopers from "back in the day" summarily dismissed anybody who played after about 1980 except for D-Wade and maybe Jae. And probably for good reason ... because Al had stud after stud after stud after stud. They WERE better than anybody after 1980!

Al also had the luxury of seeing great freshmen become great sophomores, great sophs become great juniors and great juniors become great seniors. Chones left early and it was a cause celebre. Nowadays, it's a cause celebre if they DON'T go early -- even if they are seriously limited players like Henry Ellenson or if they just get sick of college hoops, like Vander Blue. There would have been zero discussion of a 1975 version of Markus Howard possibly going pro.

Al's "system" was to get great players and tell them to play hard -- and to get Hank and Rick to coach up the guys who needed more coaching.

And despite all of those great players, and relatively few truly great programs to compete against, Al "only" got to the Final Four twice -- one more time than the great Tom Crean did.

'70sScoop would be screaming that he "underachieved," and the screaming would have been loudest in February of his final season!!!

[Goose]

Atl MU Warrior
Just curious on why you are not a believer that great programs have systems? Have to add, your stated they played good defense rings a bit hollow to me. A good defense? Obviously you did not watch the Al era closely.

[Goose]

MU82
I think you are simplifying Al’s system a bit. If his system was so easy, how come it took teams years to copy his success. To me, it is like saying Cal at Kentucky was not unique. Al changed the game and Coach Cal did it again.

[Goose]

TAMU
You might be right he is trying to run the Duke system. Then he should be recruiting guys that fit that system. Plenty of three star recruits that probably could become four star college players in right system. That is my point. If you are trying to run something, recruit guys that fill the needs. I do not see that happening the first five years.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Atl MU Warrior
Just curious on why you are not a believer that great programs have systems? Have to add, your stated they played good defense rings a bit hollow to me. A good defense? Obviously you did not watch the Al era closely.

I was 5 when MU won it all in 1977.

Who said I didn’t believe that programs have systems?  I just don’t think you identified a system. You spit out a bunch of cliches.

[Goose]

ATL MU
You said that my system theme rang hollow and my Al comparison confirmed that. Not sure on what cliches I am using. Great programs or organizations have systems in place to have long term success. Not sure on my questioning what is Wojo’s system is anything other than asking what others believe his system is.
Fir the record, Al’s teams have the best D in the nation when needed. Often they were lazy or played down to opponents, but when rubber hit the road, the best D by a wide margin. That is is a fact that cannot be debated.

[ATL MU Warrior]

ATL MU
You said that my system theme rang hollow and my Al comparison confirmed that. Not sure on what cliches I am using. Great programs or originations have systems in place to have long term success. Not sure on my questioning what is Wojo’s system is anything other than asking what others believe his system is.
Fir the record, Al’s teams have the best D in the nation when needed. Often they were lazy or played down to opponents, but when rubber hit the road, the best D by a wide margin. That is is a fact that cannot be debated.

I am not trying to be a jerk, and I obviously have no basis to dispute your knowledge of MU when Al was there.

I guess I just don’t believe that what you described as Al’s system is in fact a system. It’s what every coach tries to do. Obviously some with more success than others for a variety of reasons.

Nolan Richardson had a system at Arkansas. Boeheim has a system at Syracuse. Styles of play they champion and are known for.  TAMU described Duke’s system.

Perhaps I am simply hearing style of play instead of what you mean by system.

[Goose]

ATL MU Warrior
I guess I assumed you and others knew our ball history well. Trust me, MU’s D and discipline were their system. 40 minutes of hell was an extension on MU ball circa 1970’s. Five second violations on inbounds, ten second violations on half court, couples by multiple versions of a trap was their trademark.
I added the recruiting because it is part of the equation. I added the type of coaching as part of the equation. MU basketball was a bitch and Al recruited guys into the system.
Never a transfer, outside of to ABAor NBA and guys flocking to transfer to here. It was system that worked for 14 years.

[jesmu84]

IMO,

Looking back, I believe wojo intially tried to recruit the best players he could get in his own backyard. He surrounded them with whatever he could find. After that stint, he began going after Uber talented players, but didn't have the resume or track record of success to reel them in 100%, so he took the best available after that. That's where we are today. Wojo taking the best he can, regardless of system (while still playing somewhat of a Duke style with emphasis on the 3). I believe he initially preferred IQ and fundamentals over athleticism.

In the future, I think, now that wojo has success marginally under his belt, he can go after the higher ranked kids. The one who add atheleticism to the other attributes that we already have. From there, he'll establish more of a "system" and be able to "pick and choose" more of his type of players.

I think he went for "his backyard" then "best he could get regardless of style" and with winning will get to "pick the best for his system."

[Goose]

jesmu
Kudo’s on your post. I think you summed things up extremely well. My only question, is that plan MU signed up for or did Wojo oversell himself? It is a lot of money to spend on a learn on the job position. KO and Crean has same background and hit the ground running. In addition, thinking he can create his system vs. knowing it, is my my problem. Still a lot of “hoping” or “thinking” he can do it for five years on the job.

Again, while we likely will. never attend the same beer or meat summits, I think your post is the most logicical one made to my question.

[mu_hilltopper]

IMO, Buzz had a superior ability to make the team greater than the sum of its parts.    He was an artist or an alchemist.
..
Every year under Wojo, the team has met my expectations.   No better, no worse.    Either I am getting better at assessing talent, or Wojo has not yet developed the ability to make his teams greater than the sum of their parts.    ...
This season has been a B.   

Indeed, Buzz's ability to make the team greater than the sum of its parts was really excellent.  His teams punched above their weight class on a frequent basis.

Until ~6 weeks ago, Wojo's teams had rarely done that, and I always doubted his long term viability at MU because of that.  MU is lucky to get the occasional elite recruit, at best.   If we don't have a coach who can work that magic, we're going to be a middle-pack BE team.  Let's see what next year brings.

I predicted 19 wins this year, so +4 means this year was significantly above my Arbys colored expectations.  This is good, hopefully a trend.

The past 4 games sucked and has created the concept that the season, good as it was, can still be greatly "salvaged" by a couple wins in the NCAAs.   

[warriorfred]

My expectations going into the season were 22-24 regular season wins, top 3 in the Big East, 5 seed in the dance.    So, my expectations were spot on.    So far, IMO, Wojo is closer to Crean than Buzz in coaching ability.     Let me try to explain.   Looking back, barring injuries,  Crean's teams either met expectations or came up just short, based on the talent he had.  Crean only won one tourney game without Wade on his team in 9 years.    Solid regular season records.    His recruiting classes were erratic, rarely two good ones in a row.  (Matthews, Bell, Mason, Christian?!?!?!)   I have written it elsewhere, but in hindsight, he was a 'paint by numbers' coach.    Only rarely was a true spark of genius seen (Grimm on Tucker).

Buzz's teams seemed to outperform expectations.   We all loved Gardner, Cadougan, Lockett...   hell, Buzz got to the postseason with a backcourt of Acker and Cubillan and no starter over 6'6.  IMO, he had a superior ability to make the team greater than the sum of its parts.    He was an artist or an alchemist.     He made lack of size a virtue and.... forced Huggins into playing differently than he wanted to....    faked out Brad at the end of the MU/Butler tourney game.... made Crowder matched up against Drummond an advantage for MU.    Rarely developing HS players and a wandering soul were his problems.    As well as not being in sync with administration. 

Every year under Wojo, the team has met my expectations.   No better, no worse.    Either I am getting better at assessing talent, or Wojo has not yet developed the ability to make his teams greater than the sum of their parts.    To me, he seems to be like Crean in that regard.   I think he still has room to grow, though.   

This season has been a B.    The final regular season record was what I expected.    How it came to be was both more exhilarating (20-2!) and more painful (giving up what felt like 20-2 runs to each team at the end) than I anticipated.     I have seen enough from Wojo to want to keep him.   He is recruiting good players and good citizens.     I have not yet seen what I would characterize as 'magic'.

Darn, you made an apt comparison to Crean and now it is in my head.

[warriorfred]

In year 5 of the Wojo reign, my expectations for the regular season have been met, 21+ wins, and 2d in the Big East.  However, my post-season expectations for this year are higher.  Round of 32 at a minimum.  A Sweet 16 slightly exceeds expectations and tells me the direction is positive for year 6.

Elite 8 or better this year tells me Wojo might have some brilliance . . . but I cannot shake Tower's Crean comparison.

[MU82]

MU82
I think you are simplifying Al’s system a bit. If his system was so easy, how come it took teams years to copy his success. To me, it is like saying Cal at Kentucky was not unique. Al changed the game and Coach Cal did it again.

All right, Goose, we've had a good discussion here and I'll let you have the last word on Al. This is not about Al anyway.

Go Marquette!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU
You might be right he is trying to run the Duke system. Then he should be recruiting guys that fit that system. Plenty of three star recruits that probably could become four star college players in right system. That is my point. If you are trying to run something, recruit guys that fill the needs. I do not see that happening the first five years.

This is where you and I see it differently. I think the players he has do fit his system. He has the dynamic scoring guard, sharpshooting bigs, rim protecting centers, and wings who can both drive and shoot. When you land the 3-stars instead of the 5-stars, they need time to develop their game. The wings are behind in their development. Sacar can do what is needed on defense but is inconsistent on offense. Bailey and Cain have potential but aren't quite their on the offensive end. When Sacar is playing at a high level (and others are playing at least average), we are a top 10 team.

[MU82]

If our great 3-point shooters -- Sam and Markus -- had hit a few more wide open 3-pointers over the last two weeks (the kind of shots they normally hit in their sleep), and/or if Joey didn't disappear, Wojo's "system" would have delivered an outright BEast title.

As I said, the coach is the CEO, and he has to own it. And he is owning it, at least publicly.

But any coach needs his best players to play their best, especially at crunch time. Al lost plenty of games when his best players had bad games; so did Buzz; so does K; so does (insert coach's name here).

[Goose]

TAMU
I think you are close to being correct on your assessment. I am not sure they selected players to meet a certain plan. I have said many times, this team surpassed my expectations and I am happy about that. That said, they have no margin for error, even in a down ball season.
You know current game far better than I do, but think I am pretty knowledgeable ball guy. In watching other games I feel there is a big gap between us and top ten teams. I think your comment on Sacar is accurate, but I if was coach I would not bet on him being the difference maker.

[Goose]

MU82
Our best three point shooters carried us for four weeks, it is law of averages. You know your stuff, why do you only look at one side of the equation. I admit they are better and happy about that. Not sure why many want to paint a rosier picture than reality is.

Trust me, I want to believe and live the dream. I am not a negative Nellie, living in hopes of Al walking back into the door. I have had up close and personal relationship with program for nearly 50 years and get the whole thing. I have never left MU bandwagon, but try to view the facts and not let emotion take over.

[muwarrior69]

MU82
Our best three point shooters carried us for four weeks, it is law of averages. You know your stuff, why do you only look at one side of the equation. I admit they are better and happy about that. Not sure why many want to paint a rosier picture than reality is.

Trust me, I want to believe and live the dream. I am not a negative Nellie, living in hopes of Al walking back into the door. I have had up close and personal relationship with program for nearly 50 years and get the whole thing. I have never left MU bandwagon, but try to view the facts and not let emotion take over.

I have yet to see this team put away an opponent where Sam and Markus and Sacar and Joey and Theo are all contributing. The team usually defers to Markus or Sam and they become the one horse pony show. That scenario has carried us for most of the season but has failed in these last 4 games. Our biggest problem is that we do not handle ball pressure very well and Markus has to be able to break the double team if we are going to succeed in both tournaments.

[MU82]

MU82
Our best three point shooters carried us for four weeks, it is law of averages. You know your stuff, why do you only look at one side of the equation. I admit they are better and happy about that. Not sure why many want to paint a rosier picture than reality is.

Trust me, I want to believe and live the dream. I am not a negative Nellie, living in hopes of Al walking back into the door. I have had up close and personal relationship with program for nearly 50 years and get the whole thing. I have never left MU bandwagon, but try to view the facts and not let emotion take over.

Not exactly sure what you're saying here, Goose.

The law of averages actually states that Markus and Sam will shoot their averages. When it came to nut-cuttin' time, they didn't. Maybe tired. Maybe just unlucky. Maybe that's just sports. They're human.

I don't think I'm letting my emotions take over at all, nor am I trying to "paint a rosier picture." What I said is a fact. I can remember off the top of my head three wide-open 3s (one in each of 3 of our 4 losses down the stretch) that Sam had. Had any of them gone in, we might be sitting here as Big East champs today.

But hey, given the shot he made against Creighton, he's "allowed" to miss a couple of those, of course!

Just saying that Wojo's "system" calls for great shooters to take (and hopefully hit) wide-open 3s. A couple of those shots ... no coach in America could have designed anything better -- wide-open 3s by two of the best shooters in America.

To expect them to make close to their averages down the stretch isn't exactly blind hope.

It's sports. Stuff happens. It's why I stopped going apeshyte years ago about stuff I can't control. I love Marquette hoops, but I'll let others base their happiness and well-being on the play of 18-22 year olds (not talkin' about you, Goose).

[Its DJOver]

I have yet to see this team put away an opponent where Sam and Markus and Sacar and Joey and Theo are all contributing. The team usually defers to Markus or Sam and they become the one horse pony show. That scenario has carried us for most of the season but has failed in these last 4 games. Our biggest problem is that we do not handle ball pressure very well and Markus has to be able to break the double team if we are going to succeed in both tournaments.

Did you miss the game at the Dunk?  Substitute Ed for Theo and you have 5 players in double figures.  Maybe it's just because they're not a good team, but the last three halves we've outscored PC by 37. 

I would have loved if they've would have gotten 1 more win and 7 seed, since they swept StJ.  For as bad as we need a win right now, having gone 4-0 against our potential Thursday night opponents with an average margin of victory of 14.5 would have been as good as we could have hoped for.

[Lennys Tap]

If our great 3-point shooters -- Sam and Markus -- had hit a few more wide open 3-pointers over the last two weeks (the kind of shots they normally hit in their sleep), and/or if Joey didn't disappear, Wojo's "system" would have delivered an outright BEast title.

As I said, the coach is the CEO, and he has to own it. And he is owning it, at least publicly.

But any coach needs his best players to play their best, especially at crunch time. Al lost plenty of games when his best players had bad games; so did Buzz; so does K; so does (insert coach's name here).

1. 3 point shooters don't hit open 3s in their sleep. They make them at a certain %, some games higher, some games lower and some right on their average. I don't know if their "slumps" are because they're tight at crunch time, tired, injured or just regressions to the mean. If they're tired, that's on Wojo. If they're tight, that's partially on Wojo. If they're injured to the point where they're liabilities at crunch time, it's up to Wojo to call someone else's number. If it's simple regression it's nobody's fault. Who knows?
2. Joey "disappeared" long before our 4 game skid. He hit the wall (not surprisingly) a while ago. Whether or not Wojo has given Bailey and/or Cain sufficient time given Joey's slump is a matter of opinion. I honestly don't have a strong one.

[MU82]

1. 3 point shooters don't hit open 3s in their sleep. They make them at a certain %, some games higher, some games lower and some right on their average. I don't know if their "slumps" are because they're tight at crunch time, tired, injured or just regressions to the mean. If they're tired, that's on Wojo. If they're tight, that's partially on Wojo. If they're injured to the point where they're liabilities at crunch time, it's up to Wojo to call someone else's number. If it's simple regression it's nobody's fault. Who knows?
2. Joey "disappeared" long before our 4 game skid. He hit the wall (not surprisingly) a while ago. Whether or not Wojo has given Bailey and/or Cain sufficient time given Joey's slump is a matter of opinion. I honestly don't have a strong one.

Both reasonable points, especially about Bailey/Cain/Joey.

As for the shooting, I'll go back to what I said to Goose: Sam and Joey did not "revert" to their mean. Indeed, they significantly underperformed relative to their mean. If they had performed to their mean, they would have made a few of those shots.

Of course you are right that nobody makes 3s in their sleep. It was a figure of speech, and I think you know that. It means they are shots they routinely make. But they are not only human, they're not much older than kids, and misses happen.

I guess Sam and Markus have spoiled us for so long with their ability to make shots -- especially wide-open 3s -- that it surprises us if they miss 'em.

Again, this is Example No. 844 why I try not to get upset about things I cannot control. I'm not saying you're any different.

[Lennys Tap]

Both reasonable points, especially about Bailey/Cain/Joey.

As for the shooting, I'll go back to what I said to Goose: Sam and Joey did not "revert" to their mean. Indeed, they significantly underperformed relative to their mean. If they had performed to their mean, they would have made a few of those shots.

Of course you are right that nobody makes 3s in their sleep. It was a figure of speech, and I think you know that. It means they are shots they routinely make. But they are not only human, they're not much older than kids, and misses happen.

I guess Sam and Markus have spoiled us for so long with their ability to make shots -- especially wide-open 3s -- that it surprises us if they miss 'em.

Again, this is Example No. 844 why I try not to get upset about things I cannot control. I'm not saying you're any different.

Reverting to the mean by definition includes periods of either underperformance or outperformance. If Sam, for example, is historically a 40% 3 point shooter who makes 50 of his first 100, he's not "underperforming relative to his mean" when he make 30 of his next 100, he's reverting to the mean. The converse is also true.

[MU82]

Reverting to the mean by definition includes periods of either underperformance or outperformance. If Sam, for example, is historically a 40% 3 point shooter who makes 50 of his first 100, he's not "underperforming relative to his mean" when he make 30 of his next 100, he's reverting to the mean. The converse is also true.

He's a 45% shooter who was shooting 45% ... until the last 4 games, when a fellow Scooper said he shot something like 20%. I don't see as how that is "reverting to the mean," but I absolutely am neither a math expert nor a stats geek.

[1SE]

So the big question is, are we happy with a "B" coach in the long run?

[Cheeks]

So the big question is, are we happy with a "B" coach in the long run?

What unproven assistant coach are Pakuni and Lenny suggesting that will be an A coach replacement?

This is the path we almost always take.  Personally, I think B people can become A, and A can become B.  So far, so good as far as I am concerned.  The longer he stays, if success continues, better players will be landed and then things get interesting.  With better players better potential, but also more likely departures early...trade offs.

[MU82]

So the big question is, are we happy with a "B" coach in the long run?

Well, as recently as November, many Scoopers were saying Wojo was a C or D coach. So if he is a B coach now, he has proven that he can improve significantly ... and fairly quickly at that.

So to answer your question, I can be happy with a B coach now, and I have reasonable optimism that he can become a B+ coach or better soon.

[Lennys Tap]

He's a 45% shooter who was shooting 45% ... until the last 4 games, when a fellow Scooper said he shot something like 20%. I don't see as how that is "reverting to the mean," but I absolutely am neither a math expert nor a stats geek.

In Big East games this year Sam was shooting 39% from 3 pt range going into "the skid". He shot 32.3% during the 4 game losing streak (10/31), so now he's 37.5%. If he makes two more shots in those games he stays at 39%.

[Lennys Tap]

What unproven assistant coach are Pakuni and Lenny suggesting that will be an A coach replacement?

Please quote the post where Pakuni or I suggested a) that Marquette fire Wojo or b) we knew of a sure fire "A" assistant coach waiting in the wings.

Thanks in advance for the apology and retraction.

[skianth16]

Well, as recently as November, many Scoopers were saying Wojo was a C or D coach. So if he is a B coach now, he has proven that he can improve significantly ... and fairly quickly at that.

So to answer your question, I can be happy with a B coach now, and I have reasonable optimism that he can become a B+ coach or better soon.

With the way our defense improved from last year to this year, I think he's shown an ability to grow as a coach. Yes, I know that personnel make an impact there, but that's part of his learning curve too. He made the decision 2-3 years ago that he would be OK with a team that was disproportionately offensively focused, and it seems like he adjusted his view since then. In the last few years, I think you're right,  he's proven himself to be a B coach.

The issues this year - turnovers, big men in foul trouble, not closing out games - are all things he can help the team improve. If he's able to address these problems next year, then I think he can be fairly given a B+ or A- rating. If he proves he can keep landing top recruits, developing players, and maintain a winning identity, then he'll be deserving of an A rating.

[MU82]

In Big East games this year Sam was shooting 39% from 3 pt range going into "the skid". He shot 32.3% during the 4 game losing streak (10/31), so now he's 37.5%. If he makes two more shots in those games he stays at 39%.

Thanks Lenny. I thought I read the stats I quoted in a different comment stream. Laziness on my part. I appreciate you providing the correct facts.

And let me get this out there: I am NOT blaming Sam or Markus for the 4-game skid. It's sports. All kinds of things happen to determine the outcome. I mean, Markus missed a couple of FTs, too, something he just about never does. These are 20-year-old "kids," not machines.

Even Steph Curry misses wide-open 3s sometimes. Of course, when he does and the Warriors lose by 2, I'm not blaming Steve Kerr for it.

[tower912]

So the big question is, are we happy with a "B" coach in the long run?

As long as he performs at a b level and you see potential for growth, yes.    It is my recollection that not everyone was sad to see Crean go.  Some wanted him fired.  Even those who wanted to keep him were frustrated.   Sound familiar?

IMO, Wojo has not yet reached his ceiling. 

[Its DJOver]

With the way our defense improved from last year to this year, I think he's shown an ability to grow as a coach. Yes, I know that personnel make an impact there, but that's part of his learning curve too. He made the decision 2-3 years ago that he would be OK with a team that was disproportionately offensively focused, and it seems like he adjusted his view since then. In the last few years, I think you're right,  he's proven himself to be a B coach.

The issues this year - turnovers, big men in foul trouble, not closing out games - are all things he can help the team improve. If he's able to address these problems next year, then I think he can be fairly given a B+ or A- rating. If he proves he can keep landing top recruits, developing players, and maintain a winning identity, then he'll be deserving of an A rating.

Very well stated, and for the most part I would agree.  I do however think that Wojo is better at closing out games than you seem to imply.  The last four have been brutal and Wojo should absolutely get knocked for that, but by my count (which may be wrong) we are still 7-4 in games decided by 2 or less possessions, and we've won 10 straight OT games dating back three seasons.  Now I'm sure there was a fair bit of luck in that streak, and some games never should have gone to OT (Eastern Illinois last year for example), but how many coaches have had a ten game OT winning streak in their careers?

[Lennys Tap]

As long as he performs at a b level and you see potential for growth, yes.    It is my recollection that not everyone was sad to see Crean go.  Some wanted him fired.  Even those who wanted to keep him were frustrated.   Sound familiar?

IMO, Wojo has not yet reached his ceiling.

Your recollection re TC is accurate.

Good chance you're right on Wojo also. Here's hoping.

[tower912]

Everything is a risk.   Maybe this is Wojo's ceiling.   So keeping him is a risk.  Maybe his replacement is just another Dukiet.  So firing him is a risk.   I've been wrong before.  All I know is that two weeks ago almost nobody wanted him gone.  Except guru, who wanted undefeated and unscored upon.   There hasn't been a scandal, these have been 4 painful losses.   I'm not ready to cut him loose.

[Cheeks]

As long as he performs at a b level and you see potential for growth, yes.    It is my recollection that not everyone was sad to see Crean go.  Some wanted him fired.  Even those who wanted to keep him were frustrated.   Sound familiar?

IMO, Wojo has not yet reached his ceiling.

Fans.  Villanova fans wanted Wright fired a few years ago when they weren’t going far enough in the tourney.

Irrational ....FANatics

[Shooter McGavin]

As long as he performs at a b level and you see potential for growth, yes.    It is my recollection that not everyone was sad to see Crean go.  Some wanted him fired.  Even those who wanted to keep him were frustrated.   Sound familiar?

IMO, Wojo has not yet reached his ceiling.

This is correct.   There are two types of coaches that lead to basketball purgatory.

1) good recruiters who coach poorly

And

2) good coaches that can’t recruit.

Wojo, I think falls in the 1st category right now with a chance to improve his recruiting exponentially with success.

In addition he is improving in the coaching area as well compared to when he started.

The book is still out.  He built a foundation that can lead to success and now he needs to capitalize.  By next year in April we will know (purgatory or wildly fun ride).  It’s that simple. 

In my opinion it will take six years instead of the predetermined 5 years to judge.

Let’s hope for the best!

[Shooter McGavin]

Change 1) to good recruiters who are average coaches.