COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")

[tower912]

Hoax.

[Pakuni]

How did we get to the point where a segment of our fellow Americans believes FDA approved vaccines are dangerous, but ingesting horse dewormer is a good way to fight COVID?
If you guessed medical grifters were involved somehow, you get a gold star.

A thread from NBC reporter Ben Collins.

Ben Collins
@oneunderscore__
Let's flash back to last year.
Remember those pro-Trump doctors who had an extremely viral video that said hydroxychloroquine “cured” COVID-19?
Then-President Trump retweeted it. It had millions of views before it was pulled from Facebook.
That was America’s Frontline Doctors.

If you know America’s Frontline Doctors, it’s probably because of Dr. Stella Immanuel.
She became famous because, before claiming  hydroxychloroquine cures COVID, she said ovarian cysts came from sex with demons.
Trump called her “very impressive.” (editor's note: so did rocket)

America’s Frontline Doctors was founded by Simone Gold, who spent the last year barnstorming churches and schools, insisting COVID vaccines cannot be trusted.
She’s become wildly influential with antivaxxers in the process. She has over 300k followers on this website.

Over the last year, as HCQ failed to become the miracle cure America’s Frontline Doctors claimed, antivaxxers became obsessed with COVID therapeutics. They're largely experimental cocktails from countries that didn’t have—but wanted—vaccine access.
Some included Ivermectin.

Antivaxx groups on Facebook and Reddit wanted ivermectin. Doctors wouldn’t prescribe it.
Members did whack-a-mole with telehealth providers, trying to get doctors to sign off on scripts.
But one reliably obliged: SpeakWithAnMD, who partners with… America’s Frontline Doctors.

SpeakWithAnMD offered $90 COVID consultations with MDs from America’s Frontline Doctors.
The cost of the ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine isn’t included, but, conveniently, they partner with a pharmacy who will ship it to your door!

We got a hold of the intake form for a SpeakWithAnMD doctor.
One part of the questionnaire asks: “What medication do you prefer?”
The user is then presented with three options: ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, or not sure.

This got out of hand fast. SpeakWithAnMD now hits you with a prompt warning of long wait times due to "overwhelming demand."
Antivaxxers were worried about family members dying of COVID, and they were told ivermectin cured it.
They were getting really impatient.

Antivaxxers started imploring each other to go to pet stores, claiming the horse and people Ivermectin are the same. They started sharing tips on how to eat the gel kind. They started hoarding it.
They started to wonder if maybe, without medical supervision, they had OD’d on it.

To evade what they believed to be incoming Facebook and Reddit bans, some ivermectin fans started to ask how much their “horse" weighs, so it didn’t look like they were giving out medical advice.

So that's how we ended up here.
Ivermectin fans on Facebook, complaining about wait times and high drug prices, got fed up with America’s Frontline Doctors, who sold them conspiracy and the fake cure.
So they went to the feed store, to eat the horse goo, because it's cheaper.

There is one final plot twist.
America’s Frontline Doctors founder Simone Gold was indicted and is awaiting trial... for her role in the Capitol Riot on January 6th.
Out on personal recognizance, she was on the speaker lineup for an antivaxx rally in LA on Saturday.

[dgies9156]

Brother Pakuni,

I don't take political advice from my doctor.

I don't take medical advice from my politicians.

When it comes to Covid-19, I seek advice from people I trust. My wife, my pulmonologist in Florida who leads the Covid-19 remediation efforts at one of Cleveland Clinic's Florida hospitals. My doctor in Chicago who has treated me for 27 years. When I get a consensus, I act.

NBC News, Fox, CNN, MSNBC, Talk Radio and Facebook are the LAST places I'd look for help in deciding on a vaccine.

[🏀]

Brother Pakuni,

I don't take political advice from my doctor.

I don't take medical advice from my politicians.

When it comes to Covid-19, I seek advice from people I trust. My wife, my pulmonologist in Florida who leads the Covid-19 remediation efforts at one of Cleveland Clinic's Florida hospitals. My doctor in Chicago who has treated me for 27 years. When I get a consensus, I act.

NBC News, Fox, CNN, MSNBC, Talk Radio and Facebook are the LAST places I'd look for help in deciding on a vaccine.

Oh man that’s great for you.

What about the millions that are getting information from those places?

[Pakuni]

Brother Pakuni,

I don't take political advice from my doctor.

I don't take medical advice from my politicians.

When it comes to Covid-19, I seek advice from people I trust. My wife, my pulmonologist in Florida who leads the Covid-19 remediation efforts at one of Cleveland Clinic's Florida hospitals. My doctor in Chicago who has treated me for 27 years. When I get a consensus, I act.

NBC News, Fox, CNN, MSNBC, Talk Radio and Facebook are the LAST places I'd look for help in deciding on a vaccine.

That seems a very wise approach, dgies, but why are you telling me this?

[forgetful]

Why aren't every one of the Frontline Doctors and anyone associated with SpeakWithAnMD in jail right now and their medical licenses revoked.

[Jockey]

Why aren't every one of the Frontline Doctors and anyone associated with SpeakWithAnMD in jail right now and their medical licenses revoked.

They do what they want. The founder of this “non-partisan” group was part of the attempted coup on Jan. 6.

[forgetful]

Part of me gets more pessimistic regarding COVID every day. It has fallen into the typical political pattern.

Recognition that an event may impact peoples lives: Pick a side and blast the media with your stance (GOP: Hoax/Freedom/JustTheFlu; DEM: Health/Lives/Science), divide the nation as best as possible. Divide, divide, divide. Then use it as a political wedge to define your side; go to the extremes with purity tests to have a defining position for election purposes.

The result ends up being that really neither side wants it completely solved, because then it can't be used as a political wedge. In the interim, people suffer and die, the economy suffers, everyone loses except for the politicians. Right now, the people in charge (DEMs) have more of a motivation to solve this, so are more likely to fall on the side of mandates; but in the end, they can also simply blame the other side for the problems and use that as political capital to potentially gain more seats/power.

This could be solved already, or still now. Governors should be mandating vaccines across the board. Mask mandates in the interim until vaccines are fully executed. We could have effectively wiped out COVID in the US; and still could if these simple ideas were executed. But they are not done. Not because legally they can't, but rather an issue of political capital, and fear of losing a divisive issue that can be exploited for election purposes.

It is really a sad, and depressing illustration of the state of American politics. Even in the case of saving lives, we cannot come together, but instead view it as another way to divide the nation for political gain.

[forgetful]

Other ideas to eradicate this over time (both in the US and globally):

1. Vaccinate all Americans; Mask mandates until achieved.
 
2. In order to get visas for travel to the US; must be vaccinated. Vaccinate travelers from other nations as a part of the visa process (e.g. at interviews). For nations where visas are not needed; proof of vaccination to travel. \

3. Start to vaccinate the rest of the world; use our industrial/science power to produce enough vaccine to potentially vaccinate the world.

4. While vaccinating the world, invest heavily in international surveillance testing to identify and evaluate new variants quickly.

[Hards Alumni]

Part of me gets more pessimistic regarding COVID every day. It has fallen into the typical political pattern.

Recognition that an event may impact peoples lives: Pick a side and blast the media with your stance (GOP: Hoax/Freedom/JustTheFlu; DEM: Health/Lives/Science), divide the nation as best as possible. Divide, divide, divide. Then use it as a political wedge to define your side; go to the extremes with purity tests to have a defining position for election purposes.

The result ends up being that really neither side wants it completely solved, because then it can't be used as a political wedge. In the interim, people suffer and die, the economy suffers, everyone loses except for the politicians. Right now, the people in charge (DEMs) have more of a motivation to solve this, so are more likely to fall on the side of mandates; but in the end, they can also simply blame the other side for the problems and use that as political capital to potentially gain more seats/power.

This could be solved already, or still now. Governors should be mandating vaccines across the board. Mask mandates in the interim until vaccines are fully executed. We could have effectively wiped out COVID in the US; and still could if these simple ideas were executed. But they are not done. Not because legally they can't, but rather an issue of political capital, and fear of losing a divisive issue that can be exploited for election purposes.

It is really a sad, and depressing illustration of the state of American politics. Even in the case of saving lives, we cannot come together, but instead view it as another way to divide the nation for political gain.

Same.

[tower912]

Never partisan for me.   

[dgies9156]

That seems a very wise approach, dgies, but why are you telling me this?

Because I don't rely on my governor, be it JB Pritzker in Illinois, Ron DeSantis in Florida (or anyplace else I've lived), for medical advice. It seems like too many people are blaming governors for this mess.

The notion that Governor Pritzker, Governor DeSantis, or any other elected official is responsible for the stupidity of a portion of its residents is not reasonable.

[cheebs09]

Because I don't rely on my governor, be it JB Pritzker in Illinois, Ron DeSantis in Florida (or anyplace else I've lived), for medical advice. It seems like too many people are blaming governors for this mess.

The notion that Governor Pritzker, Governor DeSantis, or any other elected official is responsible for the stupidity of a portion of its residents is not reasonable.

Responsible for their stupidity? No. Not taking measures to increase vaccination rates? Yes.

[Jockey]

Recognition that an event may impact peoples lives: Pick a side and blast the media with your stance (GOP: Hoax/Freedom/JustTheFlu; DEM: Health/Lives/Science), divide the nation as best as possible. Divide, divide, divide. Then use it as a political wedge to define your side; go to the extremes with purity tests to have a defining position for election purposes.

While this was an excellent post, I think you unwittingly are comparing these two things as being similar. Lies and truth are not equal comparisons.


From all that you post here, I know that is not what you are saying. But it is wrong to say that people telling the truth (Health/Lives/Science) are helping to divide the country.

Lies divide. Truth is just that - truth.

[jficke13]

Providing cover/validation for destructive impulses is bad and is appropriately condemned. People shouldn't be looking to their governor for medical advice, but ignoring the fact that people use the dumb opinions of politicians to rationalize or excuse their bad personal health choices is pretty myopic.

[Pakuni]

Because I don't rely on my governor, be it JB Pritzker in Illinois, Ron DeSantis in Florida (or anyplace else I've lived), for medical advice. It seems like too many people are blaming governors for this mess.

The notion that Governor Pritzker, Governor DeSantis, or any other elected official is responsible for the stupidity of a portion of its residents is not reasonable.

The problem with your frequent "other people's stupidity" line  that you continually ignore that in the case of COVID, that stupidity can - and does - harm others. It risks exposure. It increases the likelihood of new variants. It shuts down schools. It makes getting proper medical care more difficult.
People who refuse to vaccinate and take other public health precautions aren't the same as those eating too many Big Macs or smoking. They're the people getting sloshed at the bar then driving down the interstate in a Ford Explorer.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

So that's how we ended up here.
Ivermectin fans on Facebook, complaining about wait times and high drug prices, got fed up with America’s Frontline Doctors, who sold them conspiracy and the fake cure.
So they went to the feed store, to eat the horse goo, because it's cheaper.

I have it on good authority (I mean, the guy is supposedly a "health care professional") that its just $3.00/dose! Good deal.

[dgies9156]

The problem with your frequent "other people's stupidity" line  that you continually ignore that in the case of COVID, that stupidity can - and does - harm others. It risks exposure. It increases the likelihood of new variants. It shuts down schools. It makes getting proper medical care more difficult.
People who refuse to vaccinate and take other public health precautions aren't the same as those eating too many Big Macs or smoking. They're the people getting sloshed at the bar then driving down the interstate in a Ford Explorer.

But the harm done if you're vaccinated is comparatively minor. A few days and wham, it's gone for most Americans. Do we mask up now, shelter in place, spread apart and generally become anti-social because the flu virus mutates and we have a significant piece of the population without the flu virus?

No.

At some point, the stupid have to be stupid and we can't do anything about it unless we want to violate their Constitutional right to be stupid. We take steps to protect ourselves in concert with our doctors, nurses and other health care providers. We move on... which is what we need to do here.

[MUBurrow]

We got a hold of the intake form for a SpeakWithAnMD doctor.
One part of the questionnaire asks: “What medication do you prefer?”
The user is then presented with three options: ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, or not sure.

This got out of hand fast. SpeakWithAnMD now hits you with a prompt warning of long wait times due to "overwhelming demand."
Antivaxxers were worried about family members dying of COVID, and they were told ivermectin cured it.
They were getting really impatient.

This is pretty much where the American perception of capitalism, and the rules of the game that have evolved around that perception, stand right now.  The way you make money under the American system is no longer to come up with a new idea or a better business structure to grow your business and outduel your competition. Its to motor full steam ahead with a business that is - to put it charitably - on the margins of legality, and dare "big gubmint" to stop you.  By-mail pharmaceutical companies (SpeakWithAnMD, ForHims, Keeps), daily fantasy sports, Tesla's distribution network, Uber/Lyft are all businesses that enjoy tremendous success by just ignoring the regulatory/legal barriers to entry that have stopped others in the past.  And we have such an anti-regulatory environment that no one is going to stop them, which in turn just emboldens the next and potentially more dangerous business from doing the same thing.  Until we stop seeing any type of regulation as a bad thing, that's just going to be how it is.

[Pakuni]

But the harm done if you're vaccinated is comparatively minor. A few days and wham, it's gone for most Americans.

Tell that to this guy, a prime example of why "other people's stupidity" is a problem for everyone, and not a "relatively" minor one:

Afghan war veteran Dan Wilkinson of suburban Houston got sick last weekend, goes to the doctor and discovers he has something called gallstone pancreatitis. He needs high-level treatment ASAP, but no hospital in the area has a place for him. After hours of frantically searching, doctors find a VA hospital that will take him. He's airlifted, but by the time he arrives, it's too late and he dies.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/

[Jockey]

At some point, the stupid have to be stupid and we can't do anything about it unless we want to violate their Constitutional right to be stupid. We take steps to protect ourselves in concert with our doctors, nurses and other health care providers. We move on... which is what we need to do here.

Check out the Covid rates in the counties around Sturgis. Blindly letting the stupid be stupid kills people.

By your reasoning, there should be zero punishment for bad/ drunk drivers. Just let ‘em be stupid.

[dgies9156]

Check out the Covid rates in the counties around Sturgis. Blindly letting the stupid be stupid kills people.

By your reasoning, there should be zero punishment for bad/ drunk drivers. Just let ‘em be stupid.

Gosh, if I had you for a logic student, yikes!

The right of free assembly, free passage etc., is guaranteed in our Constitution. The right to operate a motor vehicle, or operate a motor vehicle while impaired, IS NOT!

It's about the rule of law and the guarantees each of us have as a United States citizen. Yeah, if I was Czar of America, I'd mandate vaccines for everyone. But I'm not and neither is the President, the Governor or, for that matter, the legislature. Sometimes, as we have seen at various times through the years, following the law is painful. It's why sometimes folks on the far right or the far left want to burn the country down and start over. But we don't because we recognize that even with its faults, America is the best deal going anywhere.

By your logic, we wear masks and separate and avoid any social contact until either the virus is gone or everyone in America voluntarily is vaccinated. We ban automobiles because some idiot might get in one and hurt somebody. We don't fly airliners because one might crash -- after all, every now and then they do. We don't go outside because, gee, it is possible we might get hurt.

In short, by this logic, we regulate for the extreme, six to nine standard deviations to the right of the mean!

Brother Jockey, it's a free country. You have the right, as many of my wife's friends in Florida actually did during 2020, to bunker down in your house, have your groceries, pharmaceuticals and other staples of life delivered and to never come out. If you make sure you get a very good, very effective filtration system, you can make sure those nasty little Covid-19 bugs bother someone else. You can lead a life that many of us, myself included, would find incredibly unfulfilling.

Heck, even in the evil Kingdom of Florida, you have the right to walk our streets, drive our roads and enjoy our natural beauty with a mask on. The Evil King and his Minions never forbade you -- or anyone else for that matter -- from wearing a mask.

[Jockey]

Gosh, if I had you for a logic student, yikes!

The right of free assembly, free passage etc., is guaranteed in our Constitution. The right to operate a motor vehicle, or operate a motor vehicle while impaired, IS NOT!

It's about the rule of law and the guarantees each of us have as a United States citizen. Yeah, if I was Czar of America, I'd mandate vaccines for everyone. But I'm not and neither is the President, the Governor or, for that matter, the legislature. Sometimes, as we have seen at various times through the years, following the law is painful. It's why sometimes folks on the far right or the far left want to burn the country down and start over. But we don't because we recognize that even with its faults, America is the best deal going anywhere.

By your logic, we wear masks and separate and avoid any social contact until either the virus is gone or everyone in America voluntarily is vaccinated. We ban automobiles because some idiot might get in one and hurt somebody. We don't fly airliners because one might crash -- after all, every now and then they do. We don't go outside because, gee, it is possible we might get hurt.

In short, by this logic, we regulate for the extreme, six to nine standard deviations to the right of the mean!

Brother Jockey, it's a free country. You have the right, as many of my wife's friends in Florida actually did during 2020, to bunker down in your house, have your groceries, pharmaceuticals and other staples of life delivered and to never come out. If you make sure you get a very good, very effective filtration system, you can make sure those nasty little Covid-19 bugs bother someone else. You can lead a life that many of us, myself included, would find incredibly unfulfilling.

Heck, even in the evil Kingdom of Florida, you have the right to walk our streets, drive our roads and enjoy our natural beauty with a mask on. The Evil King and his Minions never forbade you -- or anyone else for that matter -- from wearing a mask.

Thanks for the reply, dgies. I am vaccinated and take no precautions. I will wear a mask where it is requested. I trust the science. I am able to distinguish between being a man and being livestock. We need to protect society from those who don't know the difference.

Mandatory vaccines have been in effect for a long time in this country. Once this vaccine is approved for children, it should be mandatory for school attendance. We do not need to cater to the stupid and crazy.

Since you brought up automobiles, let's talk about it. We do have laws - mandatory laws to operate a vehicle - to protect all of us from the stupid. We are mandated to buckle up. We are mandated to stop whenever the gov't tells us to stop. We are mandated to drive at what the gov't says is a safe speed. Yet, these "extreme" measures do not keep us from driving. These gov't demands make it easier for all of us - you might even say the laws/rules are in place for the "general welfare".

I could make the same arguments for airlines, as well.


The crux of this whole problem is that you are a Cardinals fan. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[dgies9156]

The crux of this whole problem is that you are a Cardinals fan. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

An ad avem fallacy or an ad Cardinali fallacy

[jesmu84]

My god.

If folks can't see the differentiate between drunk driving laws and mask mandates, nothing can help them.

Logic and reason has failed so many, it appears.