WOJO HAS TO GOJO

[Viper]

How many programs fire their coach after NCAA appearances in 3/4 years (this assumes they make it in last year)?

apparently MU’s admin is ok with ‘average’. And, I’d question if Lovell really understands the importance of MU hoops to MU. True, Lovell is probably worried about declining enrollment, campus over-build, prof layoffs etc etc. However, considering the $-maker MU men’s hoops is, how can Lovell & co. not see that the basketball program is rimming into irrelevance? Thus, doesn’t irrelevance to the brink of hopelessness require a new voice? Wojo is honest, represents the university at a high level...but that shouldn’t be a standard. That’s expected. The standard needs to be, at least at Marquette, winning ncaa tournament games. Emphasis on plural. Winning tournament games, as we all know, hasn’t happened under Wojo. btw, tomorrow night is gonna be nasty (hope like heck I’m wrong).

[WhiteTrash]

This is what you don't seem to get. I don't think anyone is arguing that the results are acceptable. They are pointing out that they aren't fireable. There is a gap between the two that Wojo lives in. You need to actually have a season bad enough to justify firing a coach before you can fire a coach. Wojo has always just cleared that hurdle. Unless he improves, the first time he actually fails to clear that hurdle, he will be fired...or at least he would be in non-global pandemic times.

Do you work for a union or the government? His results are not acceptable but not bad enough to be fired? I can't reconcile this difference. In my world, you get the job done or move on. He's not a postal worker and is not paid like one.

As for Wojo getting better, I think 7 years in shows he's not head coach material. Great guy and classy person but not a high major head coach.

[brewcity77]

This is what you don't seem to get. I don't think anyone is arguing that the results are acceptable. They are pointing out that they aren't fireable.

I understand the "season in isolation" argument. However, I do think the global trend would make the decision a lot more justifiable. 7th in the league in conference wins and NCAA wins, 6th in NCAA appearances, 5th in Big East Tournament wins since his arrival. While one can make an argument that none of the individual seasons given time and place were fireable instances, the body of work does not match the program investment Marquette makes.

[MU82]

I think in addition to the expectations of our fanbase, which as Sultan noted aren't particularly unrealistic considering where we were at when Wojo was hired, is the comparison game. When this league was formed, we were perceived both internally and externally as one of, if not the, top programs in the league. But instead of challenging for titles, we've had one top-2 finish and haven't won more than one BET game in any given year nor beaten any team better than a 7-seed in the BET.

Meanwhile, Villanova has become the new blue blood we all wish we could've become (and were positioned to become when the league formed). Programs we have perennially viewed as lesser than us, like Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, and Xavier have all found reasons to hang banners while we have nothing tangible to show for the past 7 years beyond scoring records.

Here's where we rank since Wojo took over in a few categories that fans would seem to get excited about, and remember we were supposed to be the team to beat in the New Big East:

• Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
  
• Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
  
• NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
  
• NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.

What does this mean? I would say we are the (at best) 6th best program since Wojo took over. Villanova, Xavier, Providence, and Seton Hall are all clearly better than we are, exceeding our efforts in every one of the above categories. Butler beats us in 3/4 categories. I'd say we are on par with Creighton, though their Big East title last year probably gives them a slight edge.

I just don't understand how by any measure we have met expectations, or come close to that since Wojo's hire. How could anyone be satisfied with us perennially being a bottom half Big East team?

Aside from agreeing with ATL MU Warrior that we were not "positioned to become" a blue blood, I am totally on board with everything in your outstanding post, brewski.

I certainly am not satisfied with what my alma mater's basketball team has accomplished under Wojo at all.

Now, if you had the say over hiring and firing, when since April 1, 2014, would you have fired Wojo?

[mileskishnish72]

Do you work for a union or the government? His results are not acceptable but not bad enough to be fired? I can't reconcile this difference. In my world, you get the job done or move on. He's not a postal worker and is not paid like one.

As for Wojo getting better, I think 7 years in shows he's not head coach material. Great guy and classy person but not a high major head coach.

Amen.
Your results are not acceptable, but we are accepting them. Internally inconsistent.

[Eldon]

Do you work for a union or the government? His results are not acceptable but not bad enough to be fired? I can't reconcile this difference. In my world, you get the job done or move on. He's not a postal worker and is not paid like one.

As for Wojo getting better, I think 7 years in shows he's not head coach material. Great guy and classy person but not a high major head coach.

1) A 5-seed is good, acceptable.

2) Wojo's recruiting classes always yield hope that 'this time is different' a la "we can't fire this guy! Have you seen the class coming in?!?"

[Boone]

Currently ranks in the bottom half of the conference

[jesmu84]

How many chances does one get to do just enough to not get fired before the pattern of doing just enough to not get fired becomes the issue?

You must have never worked in lower-end corporate America

[Badgerhater]

Wojo is the worst kind of coach—not bad enough to fire and not good enough to keep around.

[WhiteTrash]

You must have never worked in lower-end corporate America

I kind of get this but he's not being paid to push a broom. I feel like for half the salary MU could get a coach could get MU to 6th to 8th in the Big East. I don't want to make this a simple money issue, but I just feel MU has more potential that Wojo is delivering.

From what I've heard, nothing is happening with him this year. No firing and no extension. After the season, anything is possible.

[jesmu84]

I kind of get this but he's not being paid to push a broom. I feel like for half the salary MU could get a coach could get MU to 6th to 8th in the Big East. I don't want to make this a simple money issue, but I just feel MU has more potential that Wojo is delivering.

From what I've heard, nothing is happening with him this year. No firing and no extension. After the season, anything is possible.

Oh. I agree that wojo should probably be done here.

But doing just enough not to get fired has gotten individuals very far in life

[WhiteTrash]

Oh. I agree that wojo should probably be done here.

But doing just enough not to get fired has gotten individuals very far in life

Got you. Agreed.

[GoldenWarrior11]

A few optical notes of the Woja-era:

Positives
Strong recruiting
Strong graduation rates
No off-court issues
2015 Legends Classic Champions
Beat #7 Creighton in Omaha in 2017
Beating #1 Villanova at home in 2017
Beat #12 KSU at Fiserv in 2018
Reached #10 in 2019
Beat #12 Wisconsin in 2019
Markus Howard's rise to one of best players in all of college basketball

Negatives
Zero NCAA Tournament wins
Sub-.500 Conference Record
Two NCAA Tournament appearances
Hausergate (perhaps also throw in the end of the Ellensons as well)
Consecutive collapses at end-of-season ('19 and '20)
(by my count) 12-25 record against top-25 teams (.342)
Blowout Gavitt Games (Iowa in '15, Purdue in '17, and Indiana in '18)
Struggles against DePaul (four of the seven losses to DePaul since 2000 have occurred during the Wojo-era and the Blue Demons have finished 9th or 10th almost every single year).

At an overwhelming majority of D1 schools, this would be a phenomenal resume; however, for a self-viewed (and perhaps even nationally-viewed) top-25 program, it is very fair to say the consistency has not been there and that certain expectations have not been met.  I, too, do not view the body of work as a fireable offense at all.  I think the "issue" that has been alluded to is that Wojo has not been good enough to have been poached away yet but is not terrible enough to be shown the door.  Marquette is viewed as having the #2 athletic department by peers within D1 (https://www.athleticdirectoru.com/articles/athletic-department-power-index-big-east/); unfortunately, men's basketball hasn't really consistently shown that under Wojo's tenure which is no doubt frustrating to all here. 

[Jockey]

Some people think politics is the bane of Scoop.

Me? I think the annual puke fest over firing Wojo is what makes Scoop less readable.

[brewcity77]

Aside from agreeing with ATL MU Warrior that we were not "positioned to become" a blue blood, I am totally on board with everything in your outstanding post, brewski.

I certainly am not satisfied with what my alma mater's basketball team has accomplished under Wojo at all.

Now, if you had the say over hiring and firing, when since April 1, 2014, would you have fired Wojo?

First of all, the genesis of this post is the comparison game. I don't think there's any debate that we were better positioned than Villanova to become a noveau blue blood. We were coming off S16/S16/E8. We had the #1 recruiting class in the conference in 2013 and were headed in a similar direction for 2014 with Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Sandy Cohen. We were picked first in the Big East and the highest ranked program in the league. We were investing more money in our program and had the best facilities in the league.

Compared to Villanova, we were in better position to become what Villanova has become than they were. On paper, we appeared to be in a better place. I don't think that's even a particularly close debate. Obviously we lost a coach and Jay Wright blossomed, but when this league started, we were in the catbird seat.

As far as when I would've fired him, see my post responding to TAMU. It isn't necessarily any one year but body of work. If there was one moment, I think it was after the Hausers left. We went from a top-10 ranking to a complete capitulation, then saw the roster for what should've been a top-5 team fall apart in a matter of days. The period from February 27, 2019 to April 16, 2019 when we lost 6/7 games, lost the Big East title, failed to reach the Big East title game, were upset in the NCAA Tournament first round, and lost two of our three most important players to transfer was a bottoming out to date.

Shortly after that would have been the moment. It is the moment when I first wrote Bill Scholl to express my concerns about the future of the program under Wojo. For the most part, all the trends we've seen since that moment has only reinforced what I began to believe at that time: Wojo is not the guy to lead our program.

[f/k/a humanlung]

How many chances does one get to do just enough to not get fired before the pattern of doing just enough to not get fired becomes the issue?

It's like being a Packer fan during the Forrest Gregg era...

[Goose]

MU82

I know you are asking Brew when Wojo could/should have been fired and I wanted to jump in on the conversation. I do not recall when I jumped off the Wojo train exactly but it definitely has not been recently. Several years ago I noted I did not think that Wojo was a gifted enough game coach to win without having real talent on the court. Some coaches can win with any kids because they built a system that works and I felt that was lacking.

I remember TAMU noting that Wojo was running the Duke offense and I looked up the Duke offense on the internet. I remember thinking that offense must need to be run by 4 and 5 star players or Wojo did not learn the system very well during his nearly two decades in the program. I have said countless times on here but Wojo has looked like he was in over his head in this position. Sadly, I still feel the same way.

Hope all is well in NC.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If they are unacceptable they are fireable.  For an NCAA basketball coach.  Unacceptable results are not firable?  We MUST live with the mediocrity?

How many chances does one get to do just enough to not get fired before the pattern of doing just enough to not get fired becomes the issue?

Do you work for a union or the government? His results are not acceptable but not bad enough to be fired? I can't reconcile this difference. In my world, you get the job done or move on. He's not a postal worker and is not paid like one.

I knew when I posted that using 5dollar's word of "acceptable" would red herring people away from the point. Mea culpa. The piece you are missing is something Brew eludes to here:

I understand the "season in isolation" argument. However, I do think the global trend would make the decision a lot more justifiable. 7th in the league in conference wins and NCAA wins, 6th in NCAA appearances, 5th in Big East Tournament wins since his arrival. While one can make an argument that none of the individual seasons given time and place were fireable instances, the body of work does not match the program investment Marquette makes.

We've often heard that college basketball is a "what have you done for me lately" business. That usually means that if you are bad recently you can get fired despite previous good results. It cuts the other way too. Outside of blue bloods, if a coach makes the NCAAT, his job is safe for at least a year without off the court issues. There's literally only one example contradicting that rule in the past 20 years (and probably further back, I just haven't looked that far back) and the results for that school were terrible.

You can scream all you want, but that's a fact of life. You can certainly argue that it doesn't matter that it isn't done at other schools and Wojo should be fired any way. That's a fine opinion. Just understand you are asking Marquette to do something that literally one other school has done in the past thousand or so non-blue blood job openings. I know some of you believe that MU has unlimited resources, but they can't afford to fire a coach every time he gets too low of a seed in the NCAAT for the fans' liking. If he makes the dance, he will keep his job, it's as simple as that.

That being said, what some seem to be missing from my posts is that if misses the NCAAT, there's enough ammunition to justify firing him...when there isn't a global pandemic. I don't know what it would take in a global pandemic to make that happen.

[Silent Verbal]

First of all, the genesis of this post is the comparison game. I don't think there's any debate that we were better positioned than Villanova to become a noveau blue blood. We were coming off S16/S16/E8. We had the #1 recruiting class in the conference in 2013 and were headed in a similar direction for 2014 with Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Sandy Cohen. We were picked first in the Big East and the highest ranked program in the league. We were investing more money in our program and had the best facilities in the league.

Compared to Villanova, we were in better position to become what Villanova has become than they were. On paper, we appeared to be in a better place. I don't think that's even a particularly close debate. Obviously we lost a coach and Jay Wright blossomed, but when this league started, we were in the catbird seat.

As far as when I would've fired him, see my post responding to TAMU. It isn't necessarily any one year but body of work. If there was one moment, I think it was after the Hausers left. We went from a top-10 ranking to a complete capitulation, then saw the roster for what should've been a top-5 team fall apart in a matter of days. The period from February 27, 2019 to April 16, 2019 when we lost 6/7 games, lost the Big East title, failed to reach the Big East title game, were upset in the NCAA Tournament first round, and lost two of our three most important players to transfer was a bottoming out to date.

Shortly after that would have been the moment. It is the moment when I first wrote Bill Scholl to express my concerns about the future of the program under Wojo. For the most part, all the trends we've seen since that moment has only reinforced what I began to believe at that time: Wojo is not the guy to lead our program.

Did Scholl respond to your concerns?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I understand Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT.  I merely used him as an example of a coach who had had recent success (more success than Wojo, actually) and got fired.  True, he wasn't coming off a 5 seed in the tournament, but he'd done fairly well at a school where basketball is, at best, second banana to football.

See the above post for why that comparison doesn't make sense. Absolutely no program would have fired Wojo after year 5. Not even the Blue Bloods.

As TAMU Razorback would say, "No school in the SEC not named Florida would fire a coach who'd made three straight post seasons, including the NCAA tournament in two out of the last three seasons."

I am repeatedly on record as saying that if Wojo missed the NCAA this season he should be canned (but recognize he likely won't be because of COVID) so I'm not sure why you keep repeating this line.

Wojo missing the NCAA tournament in Year 4 with a roster that included Sam, Howard, and Rowsey, three of the best 3-point shooters in the country (if not *the* best), was an absolute disgrace and Wojo's worst coaching job, but that's a different topic altogether.

That is a different topic. But I'll quickly point out that KenPom had us pegged for #49 based on our returning roster preseason. We ended at #53. I'd argue year 2 and 6 were much bigger failures.

Here's what I was saying, and I'm posing it as a question to you:  If MU had lost to Seton Hall in the Big East tournament last year (which they almost certainly would have), do you think Wojo would've been coaching for his job in the NCAA Tournament, assuming MU would've been selected?  My guess is Garcia's commitment bought him another year, but it would've been interesting.

Absolutely not. Marquette was already considered safely in the NCAAT. You make the dance, you are safe (without off the court issues).

[5DollarPitcher]

Wojo reminds me of the Marquette basketball coach manifestation of the Bucks fighting for the 8 seed for a decade.  It wasn't until Kohl sold the team and the rebuild was embraced that they began to turn a corner.

[brewcity77]

Did Scholl respond to your concerns?

Nope. Generally, Mike Broeker is very responsive, but Scholl is not. Though I'm not a big dollar donor, so I guess I'm beneath his notice.

Outside of blue bloods, if a coach makes the NCAAT, his job is safe for at least a year without off the court issues. There's literally only one example contradicting that rule in the past 20 years (and probably further back, I just haven't looked that far back) and the results for that school were terrible...

...That being said, what some seem to be missing from my posts is that if misses the NCAAT, there's enough ammunition to justify firing him...when there isn't a global pandemic. I don't know what it would take in a global pandemic to make that happen.

I get the financials suck. Honestly, I feel the best hope is for Wojo to get hired away so someone else pays or negotiates a buyout and Marquette doesn't have to pay two coaches at once.

But I'm curious...who is that one coach? I feel like there are more than one in the past 20 years to get fired after a NCAA bid. Maybe some have off-court issues, but is it just Rick Barnes?

[Silent Verbal]

See the above post for why that comparison doesn't make sense. Absolutely no program would have fired Wojo after year 5. Not even the Blue Bloods.

I am repeatedly on record as saying that if Wojo missed the NCAA this season he should be canned (but recognize he likely won't be because of COVID) so I'm not sure why you keep repeating this line.

That is a different topic. But I'll quickly point out that KenPom had us pegged for #49 based on our returning roster preseason. We ended at #53. I'd argue year 2 and 6 were much bigger failures.
 

Absolutely not. Marquette was already considered safely in the NCAAT. You make the dance, you are safe (without off the court issues).

Thank you for the detailed response.  I'm not being facetious here, but let's say Wojo makes the tournament ten straight years and loses in the first round every time.  Is his job safe as long as he gets there, regardless of his abysmal post season record?

[shoothoops]

First of all, the genesis of this post is the comparison game. I don't think there's any debate that we were better positioned than Villanova to become a noveau blue blood. We were coming off S16/S16/E8. We had the #1 recruiting class in the conference in 2013 and were headed in a similar direction for 2014 with Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Sandy Cohen. We were picked first in the Big East and the highest ranked program in the league. We were investing more money in our program and had the best facilities in the league.

Compared to Villanova, we were in better position to become what Villanova has become than they were. On paper, we appeared to be in a better place. I don't think that's even a particularly close debate. Obviously we lost a coach and Jay Wright blossomed, but when this league started, we were in the catbird seat.

As far as when I would've fired him, see my post responding to TAMU. It isn't necessarily any one year but body of work. If there was one moment, I think it was after the Hausers left. We went from a top-10 ranking to a complete capitulation, then saw the roster for what should've been a top-5 team fall apart in a matter of days. The period from February 27, 2019 to April 16, 2019 when we lost 6/7 games, lost the Big East title, failed to reach the Big East title game, were upset in the NCAA Tournament first round, and lost two of our three most important players to transfer was a bottoming out to date.

Shortly after that would have been the moment. It is the moment when I first wrote Bill Scholl to express my concerns about the future of the program under Wojo. For the most part, all the trends we've seen since that moment has only reinforced what I began to believe at that time: Wojo is not the guy to lead our program.

First, I agree with much of what you have said in your posts regarding the program and the head coach. Apathy is never a good feeling.

One little thing about Jay Wright and Villanova...

Using the years you mentioned, 2013, 2014.

2014 Villanova was 29-5 (16-2) 1st
2015 Villanova was 33-3 (16-2) 1st
2016 Villanova  was 35-5 (16-2) 1st
2017 Villanova was 32-4 (15-3) 1st
2018 Villanova was 36-4 (14-4) 2nd

Two of the above were National Title Teams.

Now, there were 3 seasons of more pedestrian results just before that. 2013, 2012, 2011, two of which were still NCAA teams.

2010 Villanova was 25-8 (13-5) 2nd
2009 Villanova was 30-8 (13-5) 4th

Villanova 2009 was a Final Four Team. Prior to that there were 2 other recent Sweet 16's and an Elite 8.

So, while I agree MU was headed down a much better path just before Buzz left than they are now, Villanova showed pretty high level success too. You used 2013 and 2014 for reference. As you can see, Villanova was pretty elite annually 2014-2018.

And, Jay Wright was putting up Buzz or better results prior to Buzz, as well as during the Buzz years you mentioned, and of course, after Buzz.

2009 Buzz was 25-10 (12-5) 5th
2010 Buzz was 22-12 (11-7) 5th
2011 Buzz was 22-15 (9-9) 9th
2012 Buzz was 27-8 ( 14-4) 2nd
2013 Buzz was 26-9 (14-4) 1st
2014 Buzz was 17-15 (9-9) 6th

Buzz had 2 Sweet 16's and an Elite 8. Buzz did very well at MU, but Villanova was still going to be what they are.

[brewcity77]

Using the years you mentioned, 2013, 2014.

Now, there were 3 seasons of more pedestrian results just before that. 2013, 2012, 2011, two of which were still NCAA teams.

So, while I agree MU was headed down a much better path just before Buzz left than they are now, Villanova showed pretty high level success too. You used 2013 and 2014 for reference. As you can see, Villanova was pretty elite annually 2014-2018.

I trimmed a lot for relevance, but I used 2013 and 2014 to reference a very specific time. That specific time was November 2013, when the new Big East started.

As you mention, Villanova had pedestrian results the three years leading into that and there was debate from fans if Jay Wright was the right guy or if he should go (similar to the discussion we've been having for 3 years). So in November 2013, their program was, from the outside, not seen on the stable footing that was later revealed by the results since then.

Also in November 2013, we not only had the perceived top team in the Big East, we had the #1 freshman class in the league in 2013 and already had commitments from Sandy Cohen, Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Satchel Pierce for 2014.

We didn't know Buzz would lay an egg, that it would be his last year, that we would lose most of the 2013 and 2014 classes before their eligibility was exhausted, nor that Wojo would be the person tasked with taking the program largely into the new league. We didn't know what Villanova would do, and it is largely irrelevant to the world as it was in November 2013.

At the end of the day, we obviously didn't get where we all wish we could've gone, but the idea that Villanova's ascendancy to near-blue blood status was attainable for them and (as a couple on here insinuate) was never realistic for us flies in the face of where the respective programs stood when this new league kicked off. There's no reason the things that happened at Villanova couldn't have happened here. They also could've happened at Georgetown had things broken differently. Any of those three programs had the historic pedigree, the recruiting in place, and the coaching longevity to imagine that had things went right, they could be sitting where Villanova is today. I would argue that in order of most likely, it would've been 1-Marquette, 2-Georgetown, 3-Villanova.