Explosions in Kiev

[Hards Alumni]

There is a fundamental difference between entrepreneurs who become filthy rich and gain influence and oligarchs who had multiple billion dollar companies handed to them due to crony connections in the KGB/Russian government after the fall of the USSR.

You can look up the bios of Gates and Bezos and Musk and chronicle their business ascension whereas these oligarchs have bios that go “went to university, were a low level manager at a bank/company…then suddenly took over Russia’s largest nickel miner”. They are indebted to Putin or the government in a much more intricate fashion than anyone in the US would be at that level.

Not surprising Reich is making those claims tho

You're focusing on their path to super wealth rather than what is important.  The path isn't irrelevant, but the "American Entrepreneurs" are certainly oligarchs now.

[Hards Alumni]

I never stated we have a "perfect system".  If you really believe there's no real difference between the two main superpowers, or those countries that are dictatorships vs democracies, I don't know what to say.

Obviously there are differences.  That is what I am talking about.  Each has their weaknesses and strengths.  Why is the way China doing things worse than the way we do things?  We both get/got ahead doing morally questionable things.

[rocket surgeon]

If you are trying to compare us with China from a moral standpoint…please.  We seem to get more criticism from our own “citizens” then we can seem to muster against the chicoms and that is what the ccp seize upon as a major weakness   They walk around grinning like cheshire cats

Even our darkest days couldn’t hold a candle to what the ccp has done and continues to do to maintain power

[lawdog77]

Why is the way China doing things worse than the way we do things? 

Speechless. The Uyghur's would like a word.

[JWags85]

You're focusing on their path to super wealth rather than what is important.  The path isn't irrelevant, but the "American Entrepreneurs" are certainly oligarchs now.

But it is important. The American “oligarchs” have significant political influence and sway…like every rich person in every country ever. The Russian oligarchs are like wealthy members of a kings court.  They are inextricably tied to the king/dictator.  They have more in common with their wealth with Hussein or Ghaddafi’s sons than the Bezos/Gates or their counterparts in the UK or France or Germany.  That’s why their assets are being seized. They have a tons of money and power but still have a level of fealty.  I don’t see that as the case as much here where the ultra wealthy routinely try to move government pieces, all the ways up to the top, for their benefit

[TSmith34, Inc.]

But it is important. The American “oligarchs” have significant political influence and sway…like every rich person in every country ever. The Russian oligarchs are like wealthy members of a kings court.  They are inextricably tied to the king/dictator.  They have more in common with their wealth with Hussein or Ghaddafi’s sons than the Bezos/Gates or their counterparts in the UK or France or Germany.  That’s why their assets are being seized. They have a tons of money and power but still have a level of fealty.  I don’t see that as the case as much here where the ultra wealthy routinely try to move government pieces, all the ways up to the top, for their benefit

I was with you until your last sentence.

[Pakuni]

But it is important. The American “oligarchs” have significant political influence and sway…like every rich person in every country ever. The Russian oligarchs are like wealthy members of a kings court.  They are inextricably tied to the king/dictator.  They have more in common with their wealth with Hussein or Ghaddafi’s sons than the Bezos/Gates or their counterparts in the UK or France or Germany.  That’s why their assets are being seized. They have a tons of money and power but still have a level of fealty.  I don’t see that as the case as much here where the ultra wealthy routinely try to move government pieces, all the ways up to the top, for their benefit

I'm not sure it's fair to compare the paths to oligarchy in Russia vs the U.S.
The Russian oligarchs' path - relationships with the Kremlin, ties with organized crime, open corruption. etc. -  is the only path in Russia. Unlike Gates or Musk or Zuckerberg, starting up a company and taking advantage of the free market system to accumulate vast wealth wasn't an option for them.
And, I would suggest, doing it the Russian way takes no lesser amount of skill, savvy, intelligence or entrepreneurial spirit than the American way. The waters they're navigating are different, but they still need to be great sailors. And, at the end of the day, I'd rather have to answer to Peter Thiel than Vladimir Putin.

[forgetful]

But it is important. The American “oligarchs” have significant political influence and sway…like every rich person in every country ever. The Russian oligarchs are like wealthy members of a kings court.  They are inextricably tied to the king/dictator.  They have more in common with their wealth with Hussein or Ghaddafi’s sons than the Bezos/Gates or their counterparts in the UK or France or Germany.  That’s why their assets are being seized. They have a tons of money and power but still have a level of fealty.  I don’t see that as the case as much here where the ultra wealthy routinely try to move government pieces, all the ways up to the top, for their benefit

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the parallels are strong, with the key difference that the Russian oligarchs to an extent answer to the government (step out of line and you are killed or financially destroyed). Where in the US, the government to an extent answers to the oligarchs (e.g. the government does what the wealthy corporate donors ask them to; government steps out of line and the donors boot them out)?

And, to extend that one step further, the goal of the sanctions is to bend the Russian system to be more like the US. Sanction the Oligarchs, to see if they can flip the relationship, where the Russian government now answers to them?

In my opinion this relationship in the US is far less rigid, and more fluid, but at least at a superficial level have parallels.

In any extent, the best strategy to bend Putin's will, is to pressure those with power. Punish the oligarchs and hope they do something about Putin. Direct military pressure is unlikely to have an impact, and most likely would make things worse.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the parallels are strong, with the key difference that the Russian oligarchs to an extent answer to the government. Where in the US, the government to an extent answers to the oligarchs?

And, to extend that one step further, the goal of the sanctions is to bend the Russian system to be more like the US. Sanction the Oligarchs, to see if they can flip the relationship, where the Russian government now answers to them?

The oligarchs are the defacto government.  That's the literal definition of oligarchy:

a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution

The loyalty is between putin and the oligarchs.  Not the Russian govt, or the Russian people.

[JWags85]

I was with you until your last sentence.

I worded that poorly.  I was trying to say they try to move the pieces here as pledging fealty to those that "made them".  Maybe you also disagree, but just clarifying.

I'm not sure it's fair to compare the paths to oligarchy in Russia vs the U.S.
The Russian oligarchs' path - relationships with the Kremlin, ties with organized crime, open corruption. etc. -  is the only path in Russia. Unlike Gates or Musk or Zuckerberg, starting up a company and taking advantage of the free market system to accumulate vast wealth wasn't an option for them.
And, I would suggest, doing it the Russian way takes no lesser amount of skill, savvy, intelligence or entrepreneurial spirit than the American way. The waters they're navigating are different, but they still need to be great sailors. And, at the end of the day, I'd rather have to answer to Peter Thiel than Vladimir Putin.

I dont disagree.  I wasn't trying to imply they weren't, cause they are all very skilled in many ways.  But its still what it is.  Same with a place like Dubai, for years you had to be in bed with the Sheiks or you couldn't become wealthy/impactful.  A guy like Mohamed Alabbar is fantastically wealthy, Emaar is a behemoth...but its still in deference to the royal family of Dubai.

There are fundamental differences between Russian oligarchs and American billionaires, both in genesis and current operation,  which is why I kind of bristle when people are quick to say "spot the difference".  Its not deification, its just not losing sight of reality in the pursuit of "all extreme wealth is bad"

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the parallels are strong, with the key difference that the Russian oligarchs to an extent answer to the government. Where in the US, the government to an extent answers to the oligarchs?

And, to extend that one step further, the goal of the sanctions is to bend the Russian system to be more like the US. Sanction the Oligarchs, to see if they can flip the relationship, where the Russian government now answers to them?

I guess?  Like I mentioned prior, the very wealthy have outsized influence on political situations EVERYWHERE.  From the US to Asia to the Nordic countries to South America, etc...  Its just lazy to me to automatically align the parallels of all ultra wealthy, especially when looking at places of vast corruption or government shadiness, unless your stated goal is the sort of "there should be no billionaires" slant, which I have no interest in entertaining.

As for your second point, I think thats almost too nuanced.  This is more about cutting the legs out from Russia financially.  If Putin is in trouble asset or resource wise, he now can't reach out to his oligarchs, who he helped make and enrich, to call in the favors or fealty and access their assets.  I could be wrong, but thats my take.  Same as when you freeze the assets of spouses and family of someone who has committed crimes.

[forgetful]

I guess?  Like I mentioned prior, the very wealthy have outsized influence on political situations EVERYWHERE.  From the US to Asia to the Nordic countries to South America, etc...  Its just lazy to me to automatically align the parallels of all ultra wealthy, especially when looking at places of vast corruption or government shadiness, unless your stated goal is the sort of "there should be no billionaires" slant, which I have no interest in entertaining.

As for your second point, I think thats almost too nuanced.  This is more about cutting the legs out from Russia financially.  If Putin is in trouble asset or resource wise, he now can't reach out to his oligarchs, who he helped make and enrich, to call in the favors or fealty and access their assets.  I could be wrong, but thats my take.  Same as when you freeze the assets of spouses and family of someone who has committed crimes.

I agree with the above, and was just editing my prior post to clarify.

And when it comes down to it, right now it doesn't really matter, besides in helping identify the best cause of action to mitigate change in Putin's aggression and the catastrophic loss of life in Ukraine.

[MuggsyB]

Obviously there are differences.  That is what I am talking about.  Each has their weaknesses and strengths.  Why is the way China doing things worse than the way we do things?  We both get/got ahead doing morally questionable things.

"Why is the way China doing things worse than the way we do things".  Is this really the leg you want to stand on Hards?  Are you suggesting for example that Mao "did things" just like American Presidents, Congress/Senate, and billionaires in the USA "did things"?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I worded that poorly.  I was trying to say they try to move the pieces here as pledging fealty to those that "made them".  Maybe you also disagree, but just clarifying.

Hmmm, I think I may be the one that misunderstood what you were trying to say.

[MU82]

Ever-insightful U.S. Rep. Madison Cawthorn weighs in: "Remember that Zelenskyy is a thug. Remember that the Ukrainian government is incredibly corrupt and is incredibly evil and has been pushing woke ideologies."

https://www.wral.com/us-rep-madison-cawthorn-calls-zelensky-thug/20180199/

[Jockey]

Ever-insightful U.S. Rep. Madison Cawthorn weighs in: "Remember that Zelenskyy is a thug. Remember that the Ukrainian government is incredibly corrupt and is incredibly evil and has been pushing woke ideologies."

https://www.wral.com/us-rep-madison-cawthorn-calls-zelensky-thug/20180199/

I don't think it is any big secret that he is compromised.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I don't think it is any big secret that he is compromised.

He is only compromised by his pro-Nazi ideology. The vast majority of people have realized the public overwhelmingly supports Ukraine and have modified their statements and behavior. Cawthorne is too deeply a Nazi to do so.

The bill getting billions more in aid to Ukraine has majority support, thankfully.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Dan Lamothe
@DanLamothe
The senior U.S. defense official said Ukraine still has 56 operational jets in its arsenal and has been flying them just five to 10 hours per day. Points to that as one reason the Polish proposal to send Polish MiG-29 jets to Ukraine by way of the U.S. government was scuttled.


Dan Lamothe
@DanLamothe
·
2h
Russia still has about 90 percent of the combat power it had arrayed at the Ukrainian border prior to invasion available to them for use, senior U.S. defense official says, indicating thousands of soldiers are dead, wounded or captured.
Dan Lamothe
@DanLamothe
·
2h
Ukraine has “a tad more” than 90 percent of its combat forces available, same U.S. defense official says. Important note: Its military is significantly smaller.

[Pakuni]

He is only compromised by his pro-Nazi ideology. The vast majority of people have realized the public overwhelmingly supports Ukraine and have modified their statements and behavior. Cawthorne is too deeply a Nazi to do so.

The bill getting billions more in aid to Ukraine has majority support, thankfully.

Cawthorn is no Tulsi Gabbard.

[jesmu84]

Cawthorn is no Tulsi Gabbard.

What in the f happened to her?

Straight grifter the entire time?

[Galway Eagle]

2h
Russia still has about 90 percent of the combat power it had arrayed at the Ukrainian border prior to invasion available to them for use, senior U.S. defense official says, indicating thousands of soldiers are dead, wounded or captured.
Dan Lamothe
@DanLamothe

Why would that indicate a bunch are dead wounded or captured?

[JWags85]

What in the f happened to her?

Straight grifter the entire time?

The entire time?  Nah.  But there is little value to being in the middle anymore, especially if you play it poorly.  Her Presidential run was a disaster.  Put herself in the middle/against DNC establishment which alienated her against her own party, so she became a hired gun, IMO

[rocket surgeon]

What in the f happened to her?

Straight grifter the entire time?

  she's speaking truth to 35%'ers  damn she is one sexy mama  wouldn't tro her outta the crib for eatin stale saltines

[Pakuni]

The entire time?  Nah.  But there is little value to being in the middle anymore, especially if you play it poorly.  Her Presidential run was a disaster.  Put herself in the middle/against DNC establishment which alienated her against her own party, so she became a hired gun, IMO

Her pro-Syria, pro-Russia and pro-isolationism stances aren't centrist in either party.

[Jockey]

What in the f happened to her?

Straight grifter the entire time?

"I'm not making any predictions, but I think they've got their eye on somebody who is currently in the Democratic primary and are grooming her to be the third-party candidate. She's the favorite of the Russians."

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Why would that indicate a bunch are dead wounded or captured?

Yes, I believe that means 10% of the Russian invasion force is now dead wounded or captured.