Explosions in Kiev

[Hards Alumni]

Is it conceivable he doesn't want a nuclear war or a confrontation with the United States?  Allies are involved right now and Poland wants to send those MIG-29'S.  Do you think they're more concerned about his reaction to sending planes to Ukraine now or not sending them?

Poland wants the American jets that they'd get in return for the Migs.  That's what this is about.  Replacing outdated junkers with superior aircraft.

[Hards Alumni]

Pretty sure Muggsy is just a Russia state troll at this point.

Nonsense, he is just an emotional guy who wants to stop the violence... but his suggestions would probably create more violence.  His heart is in the right place, I think.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Pretty sure Muggsy is just a Russia state troll at this point.

Uh oh, the Russian troll farms have started to target scoop.

🤡

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Mig29s are trash.  They won't alter the current battlefield in any meaningful way.  At this point, I feel like Zelensky is trying to draw in help any way he can.  I understand his position because he is only trying to save his country, but doing anything he suggests simply because it is righteous is simultaneously very dangerous.

Ukraine currently uses MiG-29s. Would more help? If they have the pilots to fly them.

[Hards Alumni]

Ukraine currently uses MiG-29s. Would more help? If they have the pilots to fly them.

https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1502018204184502279?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1502018204184502279%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fliveupdate%2F18hnzysb1elcs%2FLiveUpdate_f02b8628-a0b0-11ec-a338-0a3925c6c990%2F0

To add to this, I'm surmising that they're not running the ones they have because Russia will shoot them down.  Why blow up your own planes if you can blow up Poland's freebies?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

nm, wrong thread

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Jeez, an article today that even Duterte in the Philippines said they will follow the defense treaty and allow the US to use Philippine military bases should the Ukraine war spread to Asia.

“ Duterte, whose stormy six-year term ends in June, has nurtured closer ties with Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese leader Xi Jinping while often criticizing U.S. security policies in the first years of his presidency. But Romualdez said Duterte told him that that the Russian invasion was wrong.

“He says if they’re asking for the support of the Philippines, it’s very clear that, of course, if push comes to shove, the Philippines will be ready to be part of the effort, especially if this Ukrainian crisis spills over to the Asian region,” Romualdez said in an online briefing with Manila-based journalists. “Give them the assurance that if ever needed, the Philippines is ready to offer whatever facilities or whatever things that the United States will need being a major — our number one ally.” “

[🏀]

Uh oh, the Russian troll farms have started to target scoop.

🤡

🤡🥊🍊🙏

[MuggsyB]

Nonsense, he is just an emotional guy who wants to stop the violence... but his suggestions would probably create more violence.  His heart is in the right place, I think.

It's conceivable millions of Ukranians could starve to death and Putin will use chemical weapons for weeks.  I don't think he can take Kiev with his land troops.  So if it does get to that point what do you think our response should be or will Zelenskyy make some sort of deal?

 We're seeing this war in real time and the Ukranians need way more weapons to defend themselves.  Again, if Putin decides to vaporize civilians and carpet bomb will we and NATO essentially just stay the course?  Is there a breaking point or Redline?  Why did Blinken initially sign off on the Poles getting Ukraine MIG-29'S?  If nothing else we and the entire Western World have to find a way to give them far more supplies, food, and weapons.  And like immediately.

[Hards Alumni]

It's conceivable millions of Ukranians could starve to death and Putin will use chemical weapons for weeks.  I don't think he can take Kiev with his land troops.  So if it does get to that point what do you think our response should be or will Zelenskyy make some sort of deal?

 We're seeing this war in real time and the Ukranians need way more weapons to defend themselves.  Again, if Putin decides to vaporize civilians and carpet bomb will we and NATO essentially just stay the course?  Is there a breaking point or Redline?  Why did Blinken initially sign off on the Poles getting Ukraine MIG-29'S?  If nothing else we and the entire Western World have to find a way to give them far more supplies, food, and weapons.  And like immediately.

Nothing except what we are doing.  That is what we should do.  We aren't the world police, and it never works out when we try to be.

Why does this war matter more than the other wars abroad?  Why does no one call for us to intervene there?

[MuggsyB]

Nothing except what we are doing.  That is what we should do.  We aren't the world police, and it never works out when we try to be.

Why does this war matter more than the other wars abroad?  Why does no one call for us to intervene there?

There are significant global implications (which we have discussed,) and you know that full well.  Think of what the world would be like if Churchill didn't beg for our help in the early years of WW2?  All genocides and ethnic cleansing is horrific.  Personally I feel we shouldn't have allowed Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Syria, and other disgusting murders.  It's unfortunate we have the responsibility of maintaining some sort of world order but it's much, much, much, much, worse if China /Russia are in control.

[forgetful]

Nothing except what we are doing.  That is what we should do.  We aren't the world police, and it never works out when we try to be.

Why does this war matter more than the other wars abroad?  Why does no one call for us to intervene there?

Or why doesn't the world intervene when we invaded Iraq, and over 500k civilians died, with us intentionally bombing civilian bomb shelters, and Arab international news agencies.

Or intervene when we bombed Yugoslavia, including hospitals. Or Afghanistan when we bombed civilian hospitals, and errant bombs hit civilian homes in our ally Bulgaria.

It is estimated that 40k civilians have starved to death in Venezuela because of sanctions.

The fact is, War is ugly, and disgusting. We should do everything we can to suppress war everywhere.

Right now Putin is doing everything he can to disrupt global order. That puts everyone at risk. But I fear he is begging for someone to escalate this, so he can retaliate. If that happens, the number of dead will be off the charts. In my opinion, that means tread lightly, and when we intervene make sure it makes a difference (e.g. stingers, anti-aircraft missiles...but not outdated worthless Migs).

[Hards Alumni]

There are significant global implications (which we have discussed,) and you know that full well.  Think of what the world would be like if Churchill didn't beg for our help in the early years of WW2?  All genocides and ethnic cleansing is horrific.  Personally I feel we shouldn't have allowed Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Syria, and other disgusting murders.  It's unfortunate we have the responsibility of maintaining some sort of world order but it's much, much, much, much, worse if China /Russia are in control.

You keep saying there are global implications.  What are they?  The US was always going to aid the Allies in WW2.  If you want my true opinion, they just wanted to let Europe destroy itself a little before getting involved.  We became the de facto super power in the world because post WW2, Europe was destroyed and all of the old colonial powers finally lost the last of their colonies.  The US was the only major country in the world that was not subjected to absolute devastation of large swaths of it's territory. 

Also, Russia has no chance of being in control.  They can't even properly invade their neighbor who is less than 1/3 their population.  They're a regional power with nukes.  Their GDP is 11th in the world, and after this it will tumble into the 20s. 

China is already in control of a lot more than you think (Africa, new silk road, etc.)  It's better to compete with China since we are at our best when we have a goal or an 'opponent'... even if it is a dreamed up one like China.

Furthermore, we have done at least as many bad things as China.  So, trying to take the moral high ground is kinda weird.

[MuggsyB]

Or why doesn't the world intervene when we invaded Iraq, and over 500k civilians died, with us intentionally bombing civilian bomb shelters, and Arab international news agencies.

Or intervene when we bombed Yugoslavia, including hospitals. Or Afghanistan when we bombed civilian hospitals, and errant bombs hit civilian homes in our ally Bulgaria.

It is estimated that 40k civilians have starved to death in Venezuela because of sanctions.

The fact is, War is ugly, and disgusting. We should do everything we can to suppress war everywhere.

Right now Putin is doing everything he can to disrupt global order. That puts everyone at risk. But I fear he is begging for someone to escalate this, so he can retaliate. If that happens, the number of dead will be off the charts. In my opinion, that means tread lightly, and when we intervene make sure it makes a difference (e.g. stingers, anti-aircraft missiles...but not outdated worthless Migs).

I would guess more like 200k civilians died.  We do everything possible to avoid civilian casualties.

[MuggsyB]

You keep saying there are global implications.  What are they?  The US was always going to aid the Allies in WW2.  If you want my true opinion, they just wanted to let Europe destroy itself a little before getting involved.  We became the de facto super power in the world because post WW2, Europe was destroyed and all of the old colonial powers finally lost the last of their colonies.  The US was the only major country in the world that was not subjected to absolute devastation of large swaths of it's territory. 

Also, Russia has no chance of being in control.  They can't even properly invade their neighbor who is less than 1/3 their population.  They're a regional power with nukes.  Their GDP is 11th in the world, and after this it will tumble into the 20s. 

China is already in control of a lot more than you think (Africa, new silk road, etc.)  It's better to compete with China since we are at our best when we have a goal or an 'opponent'... even if it is a dreamed up one like China.

Furthermore, we have done at least as many bad things as China.  So, trying to take the moral high ground is kinda weird.

Well it sounds like you have no problem with China becoming the dominant power and that we and Western democracies are just as bad as their system of  government.

[Hards Alumni]

Or why doesn't the world intervene when we invaded Iraq, and over 500k civilians died, with us intentionally bombing civilian bomb shelters, and Arab international news agencies.

Or intervene when we bombed Yugoslavia, including hospitals. Or Afghanistan when we bombed civilian hospitals, and errant bombs hit civilian homes in our ally Bulgaria.

It is estimated that 40k civilians have starved to death in Venezuela because of sanctions.

The fact is, War is ugly, and disgusting. We should do everything we can to suppress war everywhere.

Right now Putin is doing everything he can to disrupt global order. That puts everyone at risk. But I fear he is begging for someone to escalate this, so he can retaliate. If that happens, the number of dead will be off the charts. In my opinion, that means tread lightly, and when we intervene make sure it makes a difference (e.g. stingers, anti-aircraft missiles...but not outdated worthless Migs).

Precisely.  The US is responsible for more world wide death and destruction than any other nation in the world.  We arm bad actors all over the globe.  We 'regime change' leaders from countries we don't like and install friendly governments.  But when anyone else does it... its bad.  We call rich Russians Oligarchs, but shouldn't we be calling Bezos, Zuckerberg, Musk, Gates, etc... the same thing? 

https://robertreich.substack.com/p/comparing-russian-and-american-oligarchs?s=r

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States

[Hards Alumni]

I would guess more like 200k civilians died.  We do everything possible to avoid civilian casualties.

Keep drinking that Kool-Aid.  Look up Obama Kunduz hospital.

[Hards Alumni]

Well it sounds like you have no problem with China becoming the dominant power and that we and Western democracies are just as bad as their system of  government.

There are currently two world super powers.  The US and China.  Neither system of government is perfect.  Each has its own strengths and weaknesses.

Thinking that the US is somehow morally superior, or has a perfect governmental system is American propaganda that you've been spoon fed your entire life.

[MuggsyB]

There are currently two world super powers.  The US and China.  Neither system of government is perfect.  Each has its own strengths and weaknesses.

Thinking that the US is somehow morally superior, or has a perfect governmental system is American propaganda that you've been spoon fed your entire life.

I never stated we have a "perfect system".  If you really believe there's no real difference between the two main superpowers, or those countries that are dictatorships vs democracies, I don't know what to say.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1502018204184502279?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1502018204184502279%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fliveupdate%2F18hnzysb1elcs%2FLiveUpdate_f02b8628-a0b0-11ec-a338-0a3925c6c990%2F0

To add to this, I'm surmising that they're not running the ones they have because Russia will shoot them down.  Why blow up your own planes if you can blow up Poland's freebies?

Here is an interesting article backing up your premise:

Ukraine Needs Ground-Based Air Defenses Way More Than MiGs. Here Are The Best Options
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44673/ukraine-needs-ground-based-air-defenses-way-more-than-migs-here-are-the-best-options

[JWags85]

  We call rich Russians Oligarchs, but shouldn't we be calling Bezos, Zuckerberg, Musk, Gates, etc... the same thing? 

https://robertreich.substack.com/p/comparing-russian-and-american-oligarchs?s=r

There is a fundamental difference between entrepreneurs who become filthy rich and gain influence and oligarchs who had multiple billion dollar companies handed to them due to crony connections in the KGB/Russian government after the fall of the USSR.

You can look up the bios of Gates and Bezos and Musk and chronicle their business ascension whereas these oligarchs have bios that go “went to university, were a low level manager at a bank/company…then suddenly took over Russia’s largest nickel miner”. They are indebted to Putin or the government in a much more intricate fashion than anyone in the US would be at that level.

Not surprising Reich is making those claims tho

[forgetful]

Here is an interesting article backing up your premise:

Ukraine Needs Ground-Based Air Defenses Way More Than MiGs. Here Are The Best Options
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44673/ukraine-needs-ground-based-air-defenses-way-more-than-migs-here-are-the-best-options

I agree with this sentiment.

[jesmu84]

There is a fundamental difference between entrepreneurs who become filthy rich and gain influence and oligarchs who had multiple billion dollar companies handed to them due to crony connections in the KGB/Russian government after the fall of the USSR.

You can look up the bios of Gates and Bezos and Musk and chronicle their business ascension whereas these oligarchs have bios that go “went to university, were a low level manager at a bank/company…then suddenly took over Russia’s largest nickel miner”. They are indebted to Putin or the government in a much more intricate fashion than anyone in the US would be at that level.

Not surprising Reich is making those claims tho

OT - Those guys did unbelievably well after starting on 3rd base. I do not know the bios of the oligarchs.

[JWags85]

OT - Those guys did unbelievably well after starting on 3rd base. I do not know the bios of the oligarchs.

That adds absolutely nothing to this discussion but is on brand for you, so thank you.

[jesmu84]

That adds absolutely nothing to this discussion but is on brand for you, so thank you.

Anything I can do to correct the typically false narrative that surrounds these demi-gods!

Extremely wealthy folks who hold significant political influence? Sure sounds like oligarchs!