Explosions in Kiev

[Hards Alumni]

So if someone made him future fertilizer in the GROM, your concern is a pretext of war?  Meaning what exactly?

Nuclear war.  The end of the world.  ggs.  So many munitions fired that all we do is make the rubble bounce.

[Hards Alumni]

I am assuming he means that's Poland declaring war on Russia.

You seem really attached to the idea of escalating events that leads us closer and closer to nuclear weapons being used

Exactly.  And the world is not a movie. 

Peace is always the answer.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Garry Kasparov:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1499088993736138754.html
Putin's war on Ukraine has entered its next phase, one of destruction and slaughter of civilians. It is also a part of Putin's World War, a war on the civilized world of international law, democracy, and any threat to his power, which he declared long ago. 1/13

The free world's denial of this war and decades of appeasement allowed Putin to threaten and conquer abroad while turning Russia into a police state. The price to stop him has gone up every time he has advanced unchallenged. Ukrainians are paying that price in blood. 2/13

If Putin is not stopped now, not prevented from destroying Ukraine and committing genocide against its people, there will be a next time and it will be in NATO, with an unprecedented nuclear threat. Do not let Putin escalate again in a time and place of his choosing. 3/13

(more at the link)

[mu_hilltopper]

https://www.toisthe.com/2022/03/ukraine-has-requested-xbox-playstation-to-stop-service-in-russia.html

My son thinks that's the ballgame, Putin will fold now.

[MuggsyB]

Garry Kasparov:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1499088993736138754.html
Putin's war on Ukraine has entered its next phase, one of destruction and slaughter of civilians. It is also a part of Putin's World War, a war on the civilized world of international law, democracy, and any threat to his power, which he declared long ago. 1/13

The free world's denial of this war and decades of appeasement allowed Putin to threaten and conquer abroad while turning Russia into a police state. The price to stop him has gone up every time he has advanced unchallenged. Ukrainians are paying that price in blood. 2/13

If Putin is not stopped now, not prevented from destroying Ukraine and committing genocide against its people, there will be a next time and it will be in NATO, with an unprecedented nuclear threat. Do not let Putin escalate again in a time and place of his choosing. 3/13

(more at the link)

Ty.  I have tremendous respect for Mr. Kasparov.

[MuggsyB]

Nuclear war.  The end of the world.  ggs.  So many munitions fired that all we do is make the rubble bounce.

So the rest of Russian leadership will nuke countries if he's taken out? 

[Pakuni]

Nuclear war.  The end of the world.  ggs.  So many munitions fired that all we do is make the rubble bounce.

Ehhh...
I don't think assassination (at least by a foreign nation) is a remotely good idea here, but I imagine Putin's demise at this point would be greeted with more relief than outrage among the powerful in Russia.
I definitely don't think Russian leadership would seek to end the civilized world to avenge Putin.

[source?]

Germans seize Russian oligarch's $600,000,000 yacht.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2022/03/02/germans-seize-russian-billionaire-alisher-usmanovs-mega-yacht/?utm_source=ForbesMainTwitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflowForbesMainTwitter&sh=baadf6152ddd

[#UnleashSean]

Nuclear war.  The end of the world.  ggs.  So many munitions fired that all we do is make the rubble bounce.

The way Russia has been fighting and mobilizing vs ukraine, I wouldn't be shocked if the fuel in their nukes didn't work.

[forgetful]

I'm also thinking if there might be some covert op to take Putin out?   The Poles have a very good Delta type force.  The sad truth is that we're dealing with a colossal asshat who is evil and dangerous. 

So your solution to the illegal war against Ukraine, is to commit war crimes and violate the Geneva convention, and international law by assassinating a government official?

Not sure that has any remote logical basis, and is a recipe for starting World War III.

[StillAWarrior]

So your solution to the illegal war against Ukraine, is to commit war crimes and violate the Geneva convention, and international law by assassinating a government official?

Not sure that has any remote logical basis, and is a recipe for starting World War III.

Oh come on…when has the assassination of a world leader ever led to a World War?

[Jockey]

That seems plausible.  What would the Cadre do there if say a Denzel or Liam Neeson type assassin snuffed him?

This isn't some Hollywood fable. You need to start living in reality.

[Hards Alumni]

Ehhh...
I don't think assassination (at least by a foreign nation) is a remotely good idea here, but I imagine Putin's demise at this point would be greeted with more relief than outrage among the powerful in Russia.
I definitely don't think Russian leadership would seek to end the civilized world to avenge Putin.

Maybe.  And I'm not risking the world on maybe.

[MuggsyB]

Oh come on…when has the assassination of a world leader ever led to a World War?

I'm just throwing out the idea.  Are you saying when world powers have allowed annexation or expansion it hasn't led to a World War?   

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Oh come on…when has the assassination of a world leader ever led to a World War?

Archdutchess Frances Isabella has entered the chat.

[Pakuni]

Maybe.  And I'm not risking the world on maybe.

The Russians aren't either.
Russian leadership may be cruel, corrupt, amoral and evil, but they're not insane and never have been. And they elevate self-preservation above all else.

[MuggsyB]

In all seriousness is the World Order or Balance of Power more or less dangerous if Putin annexes the Ukraine?  Is he just going to eat caviar and drink vodka if he's successful?  You have the entire freaking Western World condemning his despicable actions.

 Why should we believe he wouldn't eventually invade the Baltics or Poland?  If he does we absolutely have to respond.  Since we're not going to move towards cutting off his energy piggy bank, what exactly is the plan ?  That Ukraine cripples his ability to cause havoc and he'll just stop his stated goals?  That he'll have a epiphany? 

[Hards Alumni]

In all seriousness is the World Order or Balance of Power more or less dangerous if Putin annexes the Ukraine?  Is he just going to eat caviar and drink vodka if he's successful?  You have the entire freaking Western World condemning his despicable actions.

 Why should we believe he wouldn't eventually invade the Baltics or Poland?  If he does we absolutely have to respond.  Since we're not going to move towards cutting off his energy piggy bank, what exactly is the plan ?  That Ukraine cripples his ability to cause havoc and he'll just stop his stated goals?  That he'll have a epiphany?

1. No.
2. It's just Ukraine.  Adding 'the' to the beginning is considered insulting.
3. You need to be patient, his economy is toast.
4. Let the Ukrainians fight their own war, and provide them with weapons and humanitarian support.  There isn't a need for everyone to get involved in the fighting.

[MuggsyB]

1. No.
2. It's just Ukraine.  Adding 'the' to the beginning is considered insulting.
3. You need to be patient, his economy is toast.
4. Let the Ukrainians fight their own war, and provide them with weapons and humanitarian support.  There isn't a need for everyone to get involved in the fighting.

They should have had more weapons months and months ago.  Things didn't go particularly well when Chamberlain allowed Hitler to rampage Europe.  I'm not saying this is the same thing but again "being patient" isn't necessarily the best response.  And you didn't answer my question.  Is the world more or less safe if Putin annexes Ukraine?  Should we be patient down the road when he does the same in the Baltics or Poland?  Why should we assume he would fear our response or NATO?

[jficke13]

How many bannings does that make for Clan Bailbonds? Gotta be a record.

Was Billy Chicos? Too many sockpuppets, too little time to keep them straight. We need a Scoop newsletter or something.

[forgetful]

They should have had more weapons months and months ago. 

You are partially right. They should have had more weapons years ago. I'd advise reviewing the history of the last several years to see when/where/why we largely abandoned Ukraine.

In all seriousness is the World Order or Balance of Power more or less dangerous if Putin annexes the Ukraine?  Is he just going to eat caviar and drink vodka if he's successful?  You have the entire freaking Western World condemning his despicable actions.

 Why should we believe he wouldn't eventually invade the Baltics or Poland?  If he does we absolutely have to respond.  Since we're not going to move towards cutting off his energy piggy bank, what exactly is the plan ?  That Ukraine cripples his ability to cause havoc and he'll just stop his stated goals?  That he'll have a epiphany? 

I was talking to a colleague the other day who grew up in the USSR before his country became independent. He was watching some of the Russian TV, since he speaks Russian, to see what Putin was saying in his full interviews speeches.

Putin's stance is the following: (I haven't looked into the validity of anything, just referencing what my colleague says is in his speeches/interviews on Russian TV).
1. They tried diplomacy, and were repeatedly promised that NATO would not expand further East, and then time and time again, they expanded further, including to countries on their border. Placing advanced weaponry on the Russian border.

2. He asks why NATO still exists, and expands on the borders of Russia if NATO is not supposed to be a direct threat to Russia, as the West claims.

3. He emphasizes that unlike NATO countries, Russia has never invaded any countries...with the caveat that they only take military action in separatist states that were part of Russia.

Essentially, when his loyalist government fell in 2014 in Ukraine, they had to act to secure what is left of Russian power, or possibly be the next target by the West, where they would be surrounded by NATO countries. At least that is the argument they are making.

I find it kind of interesting to see the opposing perspective of what is going on in the world.

[StillAWarrior]

2. It's just Ukraine.  Adding 'the' to the beginning is considered insulting.

For the record, so is the title of this thread.

[StillAWarrior]

Are you saying when world powers have allowed annexation or expansion it hasn't led to a World War?

No.

[Hards Alumni]

They should have had more weapons months and months ago.  Things didn't go particularly well when Chamberlain allowed Hitler to rampage Europe.  I'm not saying this is the same thing but again "being patient" isn't necessarily the best response.  And you didn't answer my question.  Is the world more or less safe if Putin annexes Ukraine?  Should we be patient down the road when he does the same in the Baltics or Poland?  Why should we assume he would fear our response or NATO?

The world is the same amount of safe if Putin annexes Ukraine.  If he expands to the Baltic states or Poland, then everything changes.  The world teeters on the edge of destruction.

Being patient is usually the best response.  What does rushing in to defend Ukraine and potentially ending the world solve?  Nothing.  Ukraine is still destroyed along with everyone and every thing on this planet.

Do you not understand how nuclear weapons work, or what Mutually Assured Destruction is?  Don't be so flippant.

[StillAWarrior]

Essentially, when his loyalist government fell in 2014 in Ukraine, they had to act to secure what is left of Russian power, or possibly be the next target by the West, where they would be surrounded by NATO countries.

I'm not entirely sure I understand this or whether I'm confusing whether "they" is referring to Russia or Ukraine. If "they" is referring to Russia, it's definitely a different definition of "surrounded" than I typically think of. I'd say more "completely bordered to on the West." Russia's southern border with non-NATO countries is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 miles.