MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on January 19, 2022, 09:35:48 PM
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Shaka must be the odds on favorite at this point for BECOY and if we can keep this level of success he'll have to be in the convo for National COY.
If the success builds game on game and year on year does he make MU his forever home? I think that prospect excites me as much or more as the hope for some NCAA success over the next few seasons.
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I was thinking this today as well.
And obviously it’s wayyy to early in his career here to assume anything.
Buuut, I think the Texas experience may have changed his thinking and that he won’t bolt for a Texas or any giant public school.
Marquette certainly isn’t Texas, but it’s a high major program that will always put basketball before anything else.
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Yes we can.
Will we, I don’t know.
I sure hope so though, as that would mean he’s been greatly successful
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Yep.
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Shaka, like many of us, probably lets money get in the was of his decision-making.
He'll go where the buck is.
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I was thinking this today as well.
And obviously it’s wayyy to early in his career here to assume anything.
Buuut, I think the Texas experience may have changed his thinking and that he won’t bolt for a Texas or any giant public school.
Marquette certainly isn’t Texas, but it’s a high major program that will always put basketball before anything else.
Yeah, I mean he's not going anywhere too soon, but if we reach that level of sustained success that we're all hoping for does the lure of a different Blueblood or the NBA pose enough of a siren song? The WI roots must help and I can't help thinking how great it would be to still be watching Shaka teams as an old(er) fart
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Shaka, like many of us, probably lets money get in the was of his decision-making.
He'll go where the buck is.
[/quot
MU has plenty of bucks
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I have to think if he can create a program like Villanova, why not stay at a place he is very comfortable like the state of Wisconsin and Marquette.
The only team I could think of getting him away of Marquette is UW-Madison.
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Shaka @ MU has to be the worst nightmare for the likes of Nova and Hall and their athletic departments and coaches:
MU already had:
- engaged alumni
- well funded program
- NBA arena
- deep history
- strong presence of alumni in NBA
- awesome training facilities
- TBT success
Add a great coach to that and you have the makings of a long term BEAST dynasty.
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Shaka, like many of us, probably lets money get in the was of his decision-making.
He'll go where the buck is.
[/quot
MU has plenty of bucks
Speaking of which- THANK YOU again to the deep pockets that made this happen. I have to imagine they're feeling it was money well spent
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Shaka @ MU has to be the worst nightmare for the likes of Nova and Hall and their athletic departments and coaches:
MU already had:
- engaged alumni
- well funded program
- NBA arena
- deep history
- strong presence of alumni in NBA
- awesome training facilities
- TBT success
Add a great coach to that and you have the makings of a long term BEAST dynasty.
Hall has other issues. Willard is all but out the door after this year and they graduate quite a bit.
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Shaka @ MU has to be the worst nightmare for the likes of Nova and Hall and their athletic departments and coaches:
MU already had:
- engaged alumni
- well funded program
- NBA arena
- deep history
- strong presence of alumni in NBA
- awesome training facilities
- TBT success
Add a great coach to that and you have the makings of a long term BEAST dynasty.
High tides raise all ships. But f*ck Willard.
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nolongerwarriors is shaking with rage just as the thought of this being a possibility
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nolongerwarriors is shaking with rage just as the thought of this being a possibility
Love how that poster’s sentiment changed from “we suck and made the wrong hire” to just openly rooting against the team. The bottle was tipped over after these last few wins and character was revealed.
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Non emotional big win answer: All depends if Shaka can start winning in March again.
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I have to think if he can create a program like Villanova, why not stay at a place he is very comfortable like Wisconsin and Marquette.
The only team I could think of getting him away of Marquette is Wisconsin.
What the hell? Lol
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I have to think if he can create a program like Villanova, why not stay at a place he is very comfortable like Wisconsin and Marquette.
The only team I could think of getting him away of Marquette is Wisconsin.
Or the NBA.
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duke after Scheyer schitz the bed?
Or the NBA.
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Love how that poster’s sentiment changed from “we suck and made the wrong hire” to just openly rooting against the team. The bottle was tipped over after these last few wins and character was revealed.
Character was revealed in his first 5 posts.
The mods have said he previously posted under a different name, I'm really curious what it was.
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Character was revealed in his first 5 posts.
The mods have said he previously posted under a different name, I'm really curious what it was.
You know what? I think I’m starting to remember now, believe he went by: alwaysadouchebag
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Character was revealed in his first 5 posts.
The mods have said he previously posted under a different name, I'm really curious what it was.
I always assumed it was Sand Knit reincarnated
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The fact that Shaka has been to the other side of the hill and seen that the grass isn't greener was 100% a factor in his selection.
Despite some claiming that the MU admin doesn't care about winning, the goal has always been a return to blue blood status. The only way to do that is to hire a young coach, show him loyalty in his early years, hope that coach starts to win big, and then somehow keep him from getting poached. I think they got their man
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nolongerwarriors is shaking with rage just as the thought of this being a possibility
Shaka Lives Matter!
As for the O.P. ... Shaka will be at Marquette as long as nobody messes with his happy.
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I have to think if he can create a program like Villanova, why not stay at a place he is very comfortable like Wisconsin and Marquette.
The only team I could think of getting him away of Marquette is Wisconsin.
For all the talk of Shaka being from WI, he hates the Madison area due to the racism he experienced growing up. Most of that was in Oregon, WI, where the played in HS, but the Madison area does have the best track record of treatment of young black men.
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Shaka could be long term at Marquette…… he has experience at VCU and the big state school…….so Marquette might be that perfect fit. Money and happy must continue though……
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For all the talk of Shaka being from WI, he hates the Madison area due to the racism he experienced growing up. Most of that was in Oregon, WI, where the played in HS, but the Madison area does have the best track record of treatment of young black men.
I had never heard that - has he spoken about that before?
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I always assumed it was Sand Knit reincarnated
Most definitely. And Sand Knit wasn't his first incarnation either.
But he's been a miserable poster with terrible basketball takes from the beginning.
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As for the original question, he’s still only 44 and has been here less than a year. I think forgetful might be right that the NBA might be what lures him away.
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As for the original question, he’s still only 44 and has been here less than a year. I think forgetful might be right that the NBA might be what lures him away.
As long as it's after he cuts down a net in April, I'm good with that.
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For all the talk of Shaka being from WI, he hates the Madison area due to the racism he experienced growing up. Most of that was in Oregon, WI, where the played in HS, but the Madison area does have the best track record of treatment of young black men.
I have heard the same
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Much like with players transferring its really hard to know someones true feelings and obviously how that could change in 5-10 years.
But I do really think this is his college spot. Something crazy would have to happen here and/or a big time offer would have to come.
As for NBA, I really don't see him as a guy NBA covets hard. But if he does end up in NBA. Probably a really good chance we at the very least have another final four to our history
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For all the talk of Shaka being from WI, he hates the Madison area due to the racism he experienced growing up. Most of that was in Oregon, WI, where the played in HS, but the Madison area does have the best track record of treatment of young black men.
I also don't think he was ever much of a Badger fan as a kid either.
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I have to think if he can create a program like Villanova, why not stay at a place he is very comfortable like the state of Wisconsin and Marquette.
The only team I could think of getting him away of Marquette is UW-Madison.
Edited my original post to make it more clear.
I didn't know about his early years near Madison.
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Nobody can know how Shaka's thinking now about what he hopes for his career, or what he'll be thinking in X number of years after he's had success here. If his Marquette teams perform as well as we all hope they do, he will have some incredible options, and he'll still be young.
Will he be the next Jay Wright and Mark Few, content to have his own fiefdom at a school that had been considered a stepping-stone job? Or will he aspire to take what he's learned at VCU, Texas and Marquette to a blueblood or the NBA?
Those who don't "see" him in the NBA ... did you see Brad Stevens as an NBA coach? I sure didn't. How 'bout Lon Kruger? I wasn't surprised that he left Illinois, but that he went to the Hawks was shocking at the time. There's a lot to love about coaching in the NBA, with no recruiting and big $$$ being at the top of the list.
And, of course, loyalty goes both ways. Even Williams, Wright, Calipari, etc, have had a down season or two. How patient will Marquette folks be if we miss the NCAAs 2 years in a row like Crean did after the FF? It's easy to say now, "We just made the FF, so that gives him a lot of goodwill," but in general sports fans (and boosters) have gotten less patient and less willing to "accept mediocrity" even for a month or two, let alone a for a year or two.
Gut feeling: Shaka will be here at least for several March runs to the second weekend and beyond. A decade-plus? I'd say that's more likely than him leaving after 5 seasons (and a Final Four run or two).
We Are Marquette!
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Here's why I think Shaka would draw NBA interest.
First, he plays a style that the NBA is playing right now. Look at the ways that his offense uses the PNR and ball movement to get people high quality shots. Defensively, his teams are solid.
Second, he is a GREAT locker room guy. Now would his work in the college ranks translate to the pros? Not 100% sure, but he isn't one of these dictatorial types who wouldn't be able to connect with his players. He also understands when to simply let his players play.
Now, is this going to happen this year or next? Doubtful. Would he have any interest? I have no idea. But if he is successful in the next 5-10 years here, I could see why there may be mutual interest.
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Well said, FBM.
If Shaka can re-establish himself as a highly successful college coach, in many ways he would be the perfect NBA coaching candidate.
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If Shaka leaves, I hope he knows many on scoop will crucify him for decades
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Shaka must be the odds on favorite at this point for BECOY and if we can keep this level of success he'll have to be in the convo for National COY.
If the success builds game on game and year on year does he make MU his forever home? I think that prospect excites me as much or more as the hope for some NCAA success over the next few seasons.
national coy? I’m thinking UW’s Gard to this point of the season.
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If Shaka leaves, I hope he knows many on scoop will crucify him for decades
I will pray hard that we don't crucify him. An actual Crucifixion would be bad for recruiting.
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national coy? I’m thinking UW’s Gard to this point of the season.
"in the convo" at this point. Is different than being the winner.
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I remember us having similar conversations about how Duke would lure Wojo away. The lesson I’ve learned from that is to just not worry about it, if Shaka leaves for an NBA job that will have meant that he had an incredible amount of success here, that’s all that should really matter.
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If Shaka leaves, I hope he knows many on scoop will crucify him for decades
Effen Eddie Hickey. Left Al a bare cupboard.
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Could it be? Sure.
But frankly don't really think this discussions are worth it. None of us know. One thing on our side is Shaka has had that big time football school job already, and it didn't go great. This seems like a better fit. But a really nice 3-5 year run and some blue bloods may come calling again, and you just never know. Hope that's a problem we have, but I decided to stop worrying about and predicting coaches movement when Buzz left for VT.
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(https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-03-2015/cl-FjO.gif)
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If Shaka leaves, I hope he knows many on scoop will crucify him for decades
Shaka at some date in the future:
"Yes, I considered the NBA job, with its much better pay, fewer 100-hour weeks, and significantly higher social status. But in the end, I decided to stay at Marquette because I did not want posters on MUScoop to say mean things about me."
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Shaka at some date in the future:
"Yes, I considered the NBA job, with its much better pay, fewer 100-hour weeks, and significantly higher social status. But in the end, I decided to stay at Marquette because I did not want posters on MUScoop to say mean things about me."
Well, if that is what it takes...
More likely is that he will have a subpar season and suddenly half of the board wants him fired.
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There are only 30 NBA jobs available.
If Shaka is even in that conversation down the road, let’s all just enjoy the parade down Wisconsin Ave
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Shaka at some date in the future:
"Yes, I considered the NBA job, with its much better pay, fewer 100-hour weeks, and significantly higher social status. But in the end, I decided to stay at Marquette because I did not want posters on MUScoop to say mean things about me."
He understandably fears a Scoop letter-writing campaign.
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The fact that Shaka has been to the other side of the hill and seen that the grass isn't greener was 100% a factor in his selection.
Despite some claiming that the MU admin doesn't care about winning, the goal has always been a return to blue blood status. The only way to do that is to hire a young coach, show him loyalty in his early years, hope that coach starts to win big, and then somehow keep him from getting poached. I think they got their man
Brother TAMU:
You hit this one right on the head. I'm confident he's here for the long-haul because of the Texas experience. Go to a massive state-based institution and the expectation is "win now... win tomorrow... win forever." A bad season and some goofy alumni sends a moving truck to your door.
We expect to be a blue blood and to win. But even look at Al... he had his moments of "close but no cigar." Our team choked a few times as well. Same can be said for Coach K and Dean Smith. But all of these people had one thing in common -- a culture of winning and a legitimate shot at a Natty.
If we had signed Shaka seven years ago, I'd argue we'd be a stop on the road. Now, I'm hopeful, we're the next Blue Blood! Goose and I and some of the other older Scoopers have to meet at the next Natty!
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There are only 30 NBA jobs available.
If Shaka is even in that conversation down the road, let’s all just enjoy the parade down Wisconsin Ave
This got me curious on what level of success is usually required to for a college coach to get hired by the NBA. Here's what I've got since the 90s (did I miss anyone?):
John Beilein: 2 National Runner Ups, 2 Elite Eights, 3 Sweet 16s
Billy Donovan: 2 National Championships, 1 National Runner Up, 1 Final Four, 3 Elite Eights, 1 Sweet 16
Fred Hoiberg: 1 Sweet 16
Brad Stevens: 2 National Runner Ups
Reggie Theus: 1 NCAA Tournament Appearance? (Anyone know the story here? Nostalgia from him playing for Sacramento?)
Mike Montgomery: 1 Final Four, 1 Elite Eight, 1 Sweet 16
Leonard Hamilton: 1 Sweet 16
Lon Krueger: 1 Final Four, 1 Elite Eight
Tim Floyd: 1 Sweet 16
Rick Pitino (being hired by Boston, not New York): 1 National Championship, 1 National Runner Up, 2 Final Fours, 2 Elite Eights
John Calipari: 1 Final Four, 1 Elite Eight, 1 Sweet 16
PJ Carlesimo: 1 National Runner Up, 1 Elite Eight, 1 Sweet 16
So as long as Shaka isn't getting hired by the Kings or the Bulls (from Iowa State), it looks like we would be enjoying some fun times if he were to ever be sought after by the NBA. Also interesting that with the possible exception of Stevens (and maybe Donovan if the Bulls keep it up), none of these guys were particularly successful in the NBA and all of them except for Carlesimo, Donovan, and Stevens (so far) ended up coaching in the college ranks again.
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I remember us having similar conversations about how Duke would lure Wojo away. The lesson I’ve learned from that is to just not worry about it, if Shaka leaves for an NBA job that will have meant that he had an incredible amount of success here, that’s all that should really matter.
KO was going to Arizona
TC was going to MSU
Buzz was going to Texas
Wojo was going to Duke
Could Shaka leave? Sure but he has what none of those other guys did...big time security and bank account from his time at Texas. He also has a wife who seems to be focused on doing good & making her community better (Lindsey Wojo was the same way). We've never hired a "settled in" coach. Mike Deane had experience but not the saving account. We have a coach who doesn't have to work a day in his life (here by choice) and a family that doesn't seem to place an importance on amassing generational wealth for their children (here for purpose).
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KO was going to Arizona
TC was going to MSU
Buzz was going to Texas
Wojo was going to Duke
Could Shaka leave? Sure but he has what none of those other guys did...big time security and bank account from his time at Texas. He also has a wife who seems to be focused on doing good & making her community better (Lindsey Wojo was the same way). We've never hired a "settled in" coach. Mike Deane had experience but not the saving account. We have a coach who doesn't have to work a day in his life (here by choice) and a family that doesn't seem to place an importance on amassing generational wealth for their children (here for purpose).
And it's not like he's making peanuts at Marquette.
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He'll end up making generational wealth at MU even if that's not his goal. At least "generational wealth" in the "don't really have to work" sense of the term even if he won't quite reach the "oligopolistic elite buying and selling the world from Silicon Valley or the Hamptons" sense of the term.
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He'll end up making generational wealth at MU even if that's not his goal. At least "generational wealth" in the "don't really have to work" sense of the term even if he won't quite reach the "oligopolistic elite buying and selling the world from Silicon Valley or the Hamptons" sense of the term.
If you can't buy an EPL team, you're poor.
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I will pray hard that we don't crucify him. An actual Crucifixion would be bad for recruiting.
A recruitcifixon... if you will.
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Shaka at some date in the future:
"Yes, I considered the NBA job, with its much better pay, fewer 100-hour weeks, and significantly higher social status. But in the end, I decided to stay at Marquette because I did not want posters on MUScoop to say mean things about me."
...and Lovell would hold him to his contract like Fr. Raynor did to Al.
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He'll end up making generational wealth at MU even if that's not his goal. At least "generational wealth" in the "don't really have to work" sense of the term even if he won't quite reach the "oligopolistic elite buying and selling the world from Silicon Valley or the Hamptons" sense of the term.
Wojo left Marquette with generational wealth and he sucked.
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And it's not like he's making peanuts at Marquette.
Yeah, if Shaka continues to be successful, $$ won't be the reason he gets away. When you look at the money it took to move on from Wojo and bring Shaka in, there's enough money there to make sure that MU can match pretty much any offer that would come in.
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Shaka staying a decade+ was always the biggest selling point in his hire to me. Take a look at the current KenPom top 10
Mark Few: 20+ years at Gonzaga
Scott Drew: 19 years at Baylor
Calipari: 13 years at UK
Matt Painter: 17 years at Purdue
Jay Wright: 20 years at Villanova
Bruce Pearl: 8 years at Auburn (we all know his story before then)
Kelvin Sampson: 8 years at Houston (we all know his story before then, to borrow a Shaka-ism he might be the Domino of the MU Coaching Lineage)
Bill Self: 19 years at Kansas
Tommy Lloyd: 1 year at Arizona
Will Wade: 5 years at LSU
At a certain point after you're at a place for a while with some sustained success, kids grow up seeing you every year at the tournament and on FS1 multiple times a week. They know your style, you're a proven commodity. HS & AAU coaches trust you. Your ability to access players that fit what you want to program to be deepens. The players you've had through multiple full recruiting cycles have all taught each other your system & philosophies, and they've taught the next guys, who's taught the next guy, and they next guy, and all of a sudden you're competing not just for tourney bids but for titles.
My hope was that Shaka did not make the Wojo mistake and waste a ton of time trying to get 5* guys that aren't necessarily sold on a team concept or might not fit a long term vision. At a program like MU you can layer those guys in when your program is well-established and you have a stable of quality returnees where the 5* stud can be complementary to the ultimate goal rather than the focal point of an entire season. My view is that the 75-150/200 range player doesn't have a ton of difference between their games. But we have access to that type of player at MU. So if you spend your time fishing in those waters with a focus on strong personality & mindset fit, with playing style fit plus a high upside ceiling, enough of them together are going to gel, cream will rise to the top, and you can sustain success for quite some time that way while building the program brand until your compound interest starts paying you fat dividends after a decade.
Back to the list above. Gonzaga, Baylor, and Villanova 20+ years ago are probably the best comps, about what MU was at after 7 years of Wojo (give or take). Private schools with some history and potential. With some early success, those guys took their respective programs to the next stratosphere in their second decade.
Really really hope Shaka sees the value in the sweet spot he's now in between VCU & Texas here at MU. He has turned away from the siren song of recruiting rankings and got guys who fit & buy in. This season is foundational to how the next 15+ years could play out. I hope he's here to see it through!
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I think this is a very intriguing question.
Shaka spent six years at VCU and six years at Texas. He had many offers after his second year at VCU (Final Four team), but stayed another four seasons (making the tournament each time). At Texas, it was all but certain that he would have been fired had he not taken another job. If it wasn't Marquette (say, for whatever reason, Wojo is still our coach this year), he would have had a number of quality options available to him (though none as ideal for him as Marquette, IMO).
Time may prove me/us wrong, but Shaka very much doesn't seem like a job-hopper. Unlike Buzz, who's endgame was always the next opportunity, or Crean, who always had sights set on a bigger Big Ten job, I think the Texas experience really had a strong effect and impact on Shaka as a coach. He didn't come into Marquette seeking out one-and-dones like had been his new model at Texas; he acquired many first-year or second-year players, supported them with two grad-transfers, and built around the few players that stayed and returned. Really, really remarkable. And that was what made his program at VCU special. For various reasons, he coached and built a program differently at Texas.
I'd imagine that Shaka coaches after Marquette, as nearly every coach has. But, if this season has revealed anything, the next several years should be incredibly memorable and entertaining under his coaching and direction. Let's all just try and enjoy the ride.
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I always assumed it was Sand Knit reincarnated
Hmmmm...maybe. By NLW doesn't use "n", "ur" or other text shorthand as Sand Kinit did, and seems far more seething with rage and racism than Sand Knit. But maybe.
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Time may prove me/us wrong, but Shaka very much doesn't seem like a job-hopper. Unlike Buzz, who's endgame was always the next opportunity, or Crean, who always had sights set on a bigger Big Ten job, I think the Texas experience really had a strong effect and impact on Shaka as a coach. He didn't come into Marquette seeking out one-and-dones like had been his new model at Texas; he acquired many first-year or second-year players, supported them with two grad-transfers, and built around the few players that stayed and returned. Really, really remarkable. And that was what made his program at VCU special. For various reasons, he coached and built a program differently at Texas.
Who knows, but Crean spent more time at Marquette (9 seasons) and Indiana (9 seasons) than Shaka did in either of his previous jobs.
Buzz spent six seasons at Marquette and five at VaTech, which ain't all that far off from Shaka's six and six.
The reality is, none of us know what Shaka's long-term personal goals are, how he feels about a long tenure at Marquette or anywhere else, whether the Texas experience soured him on the big school experience or makes him want to prove people wrong, whether he has NBA aspirations or how much money he wants to make.
Nobody knows but him. So why waste time worrying about it, especially less than a year into his tenure?
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Who knows, but Crean spent more time at Marquette (9 seasons) and Indiana (9 seasons) than Shaka did in either of his previous jobs.
Buzz spent six seasons at Marquette and five at VaTech, which ain't all that far off from Shaka's six and six.
The reality is, none of us know what Shaka's long-term personal goals are, how he feels about a long tenure at Marquette or anywhere else, whether the Texas experience soured him on the big school experience or makes him want to prove people wrong, whether he has NBA aspirations or how much money he wants to make.
Nobody knows but him. So why waste time worrying about it, especially less than a year into his tenure?
To be honest, HE might not even know.
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There's also enough evidence out there with KO, TC and Buzz that you're less likely to succeed more after MU. If you leave it should be for money or security (KO & Buzz) or prestige (TC). Shaka has the money and already had the prestige (debating MU vs. Texas is interesting). If he studies the data, he'll see the only better place is the NBA. And unless you're hired by a good org, you take those jobs for the clout / paycheck.
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Hmmmm...maybe. By NLW doesn't use "n", "ur" or other text shorthand as Sand Kinit did, and seems far more seething with rage and racism than Sand Knit. But maybe.
What former poster spoke in full sentences but was a guru at being unhinged and semi racist?
That's who I'd place my money on.
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So why waste time worrying about it
Because ... Scoop be Scoop be Scoop?
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Shaka @ MU has to be the worst nightmare for the likes of Nova and Hall and their athletic departments and coaches:
MU already had:
- engaged alumni
- well funded program
- NBA arena
- deep history
- strong presence of alumni in NBA
- awesome training facilities
- TBT success
Add a great coach to that and you have the makings of a long term BEAST dynasty.
Based on this logic, you'd have to agree that bringing Gonzaga into the Big East would be a bigger nightmare.
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The Shaka situation on staying at MU is much like the expectations for his success at MU. We are so used to hiring an assistant that is more likely to look for bigger opportunities and use MU as a starting job to prove themselves. We hired a grown man with a resume this time and he has seen other opportunities. IMO, the NBA down the road could be an opportunity, but if he accomplishes what I expect he will accomplish at MU there would be plenty of reasons to be here 10+ years.
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What former poster spoke in full sentences but was a guru at being unhinged and semi racist?
That's who I'd place my money on.
If you are talking about muguru, he loves Shaka.
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What former poster spoke in full sentences but was a guru at being unhinged and semi racist?
That's who I'd place my money on.
Again maybe, but guru tended to write multi-paragraph diatribes, go on and on and on, and then spike the ball in celebration of his "unassailable logic" at the end. Not the same M.O. as NWL...but maybe.
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If you are talking about muguru, he loves Shaka.
I was referring to him. Damn, really thought I had cracked the code. I'm out of guesses then.
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For all the talk of Shaka being from WI, he hates the Madison area due to the racism he experienced growing up. Most of that was in Oregon, WI, where the played in HS, but the Madison area does have the best track record of treatment of young black men.
I guess you assume Shaka doesn't know the story of Doc Rivers.
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The Shaka situation on staying at MU is much like the expectations for his success at MU. We are so used to hiring an assistant that is more likely to look for bigger opportunities and use MU as a starting job to prove themselves. We hired a grown man with a resume this time and he has seen other opportunities. IMO, the NBA down the road could be an opportunity, but if he accomplishes what I expect he will accomplish at MU there would be plenty of reasons to be here 10+ years.
I agree with this, and have a new appreciation for the NBA point after watching the all access game. Shaka's communication style seems custom-made for working with NBA players.
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I don't know what the future holds with Coach Smart. Right now, with his daughter, I am skeptical he will want to uproot her again. Once she is out of high school, who knows. But also, his riff about shaping young men and building relationships works much better at the college level than at the pro level. His schemes are fine.
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What former poster spoke in full sentences but was a guru at being unhinged and semi racist?
That's who I'd place my money on.
NLW registered last January and started posting blasting Theo John and Marquette for being social justice warriors. Remarkably, he then defended the mulax dudes who dropped the n-bomb on social media.
He’s not guru, though. Guru will support Shaka as long as he’s winning and whatever players are here as long as they’re winning
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the one thing that could affect Shaka's long term commitment is the changing landscape of the NCAA and the college game. The new constitution is going to heavily favor the Power Five, and as much as the Big East wants to coin the term "Power Six" that isn't a thing. Just ask the AAC who tried to do that with football. The Power Five (official designation in the NCAA bylaws: Autonomy Conferences) will never let that happen.
Secondly, the shifting of power to student-athletes and greater influence out outside individuals. Having to re-recruit ones team every year before being able to recruit new players is already wearing on coaches. Players leave more often due to outside influences, not wanting to earn their playing time, etc. Poaching it out of control now that kids are eligible immediately. Coaches are feeling burnout sooner and with the money they're making it makes it easier for them to get out instead of dealing with the BS and still live a charmed life.
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NLW registered last January and started posting blasting Theo John and Marquette for being social justice warriors. Remarkably, he then defended the mulax dudes who dropped the n-bomb on social media.
He’s not guru, though. Guru will support Shaka as long as he’s winning and whatever players are here as long as they’re winning
Hmmmm... what's a chicos?
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It's been one year. How do we know coaches are "feeling burnout sooner" and "getting out"?
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It's been one year. How do we know coaches are "feeling burnout sooner" and "getting out"?
We don’t but the chicken littles keep chicken littling
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the one thing that could affect Shaka's long term commitment is the changing landscape of the NCAA and the college game. The new constitution is going to heavily favor the Power Five, and as much as the Big East wants to coin the term "Power Six" that isn't a thing. Just ask the AAC who tried to do that with football. The Power Five (official designation in the NCAA bylaws: Autonomy Conferences) will never let that happen.
Secondly, the shifting of power to student-athletes and greater influence out outside individuals. Having to re-recruit ones team every year before being able to recruit new players is already wearing on coaches. Players leave more often due to outside influences, not wanting to earn their playing time, etc. Poaching it out of control now that kids are eligible immediately. Coaches are feeling burnout sooner and with the money they're making it makes it easier for them to get out instead of dealing with the BS and still live a charmed life.
Not sure I agree with the Power Five/Power Six part of that -- a conference doesn't "declare" it, it just happens, and the fact is that the Big East has been among the top conferences ever since it became basketball only. Plus, basketball is just different than football. If you're saying that the powers-that-be will go out of their way to neuter Big East basketball in the future, I guess we'll see. If that happens to us, it will have been a heck of a run.
Otherwise, I agree with what you're saying about coaching now. If I had the choice between an NBA job where I didn't have to recruit at all, and a college job where I had to recruit and re-recruit constantly, had to deal with overprotective mommies, had to make sure kids were going to classes, etc ... I'd sure as heck choose the NBA.
But some coaches just love the college game and have no interest in coaching pros. And right now, we have no idea where Shaka stands on that. So it's one of those things that's not worth talking about much, let alone worrying about.
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Not sure I agree with the Power Five/Power Six part of that -- a conference doesn't "declare" it, it just happens, and the fact is that the Big East has been among the top conferences ever since it became basketball only. Plus, basketball is just different than football. If you're saying that the powers-that-be will go out of their way to neuter Big East basketball in the future, I guess we'll see. If that happens to us, it will have been a heck of a run.
Otherwise, I agree with what you're saying about coaching now. If I had the choice between an NBA job where I didn't have to recruit at all, and a college job where I had to recruit and re-recruit constantly, had to deal with overprotective mommies, had to make sure kids were going to classes, etc ... I'd sure as heck choose the NBA.
But some coaches just love the college game and have no interest in coaching pros. And right now, we have no idea where Shaka stands on that. So it's one of those things that's not worth talking about much, let alone worrying about.
The NCAA has different bylaws for the "Autonomy Conferences" which are the Power Five. Even though the Big East has proven their chops the Power Five/Autonomy Conferences don't want to share the spotlight or revenue. Money will be a huge factor for not just NIL but also Alston.
It's been one year. How do we know coaches are "feeling burnout sooner" and "getting out"?
Coaches for the past few years have been talking about the changing game, outside influences, burnout, the fact that immediate eligibility waivers were being handed out like candy on Halloween (before everyone got a free transfer and handshake lines became a recruiting opportunity). I can't say if any of this will affect Shaka at all, but it is something that is changing the game and the trajectory of the coaching profession.
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Coaches for the past few years have been talking about the changing game, outside influences, burnout, the fact that immediate eligibility waivers were being handed out like candy on Halloween (before everyone got a free transfer and handshake lines became a recruiting opportunity). I can't say if any of this will affect Shaka at all, but it is something that is changing the game and the trajectory of the coaching profession.
Oh well. They are well compensated, and there are plenty behind them to take their place if they want to move on elsewhere.
I don't think many are going to lament the poor coach.
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Coaches for the past few years have been talking about the changing game, outside influences, burnout, the fact that immediate eligibility waivers were being handed out like candy on Halloween (before everyone got a free transfer and handshake lines became a recruiting opportunity). I can't say if any of this will affect Shaka at all, but it is something that is changing the game and the trajectory of the coaching profession.
It's obviously changing the game, but the trajectory of the coaching profession? That assumes facts not in evidence, counselor.
Given the salaries handed out to football coaches the past couple of months, it seems the trajectory is only going way up.
Has there been a surge in non-retirement age coaches abandoning the profession?
And when have coaches not whined about outside influences?
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It's obviously changing the game, but the trajectory of the coaching profession? That assumes facts not in evidence, counselor.
Given the salaries handed out to football coaches the past couple of months, it seems the trajectory is only going way up.
Has there been a surge in non-retirement age coaches abandoning the profession?
And when have coaches not whined about outside influences?
Never
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This article shines some light on the Shaka stuff: https://madison.com/wsj/sports/college/basketball/men/racism-pervaded-shaka-smart-s-wisconsin-high-school-now-his-story-is-being-used-to/article_a384cce0-979e-562b-93cd-0a5cec00c0c9.html
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the one thing that could affect Shaka's long term commitment is the changing landscape of the NCAA and the college game. The new constitution is going to heavily favor the Power Five, and as much as the Big East wants to coin the term "Power Six" that isn't a thing. Just ask the AAC who tried to do that with football. The Power Five (official designation in the NCAA bylaws: Autonomy Conferences) will never let that happen.
Secondly, the shifting of power to student-athletes and greater influence out outside individuals. Having to re-recruit ones team every year before being able to recruit new players is already wearing on coaches. Players leave more often due to outside influences, not wanting to earn their playing time, etc. Poaching it out of control now that kids are eligible immediately. Coaches are feeling burnout sooner and with the money they're making it makes it easier for them to get out instead of dealing with the BS and still live a charmed life.
Things change ALL of the time. Some people cannot accept that - are even scared of change.
Those who are nimble and embrace/adjust to change quickly are the ones who are successful - whether you are talking sports or business or life.
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Things change ALL of the time. Some people cannot accept that - are even scared of change.
Those who are nimble and embrace/adjust to change quickly are the ones who are successful - whether you are talking sports or business or life.
Embrace change, huh
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The NCAA has different bylaws for the "Autonomy Conferences" which are the Power Five. Even though the Big East has proven their chops the Power Five/Autonomy Conferences don't want to share the spotlight or revenue. Money will be a huge factor for not just NIL but also Alston.
Coaches for the past few years have been talking about the changing game, outside influences, burnout, the fact that immediate eligibility waivers were being handed out like candy on Halloween (before everyone got a free transfer and handshake lines became a recruiting opportunity). I can't say if any of this will affect Shaka at all, but it is something that is changing the game and the trajectory of the coaching profession.
Re the first part, I guess we'll see soon enough.
Re the second ... coaches always think they're the only ones who should have total freedom of movement and influence. They think nothing of "quitting" on their teams to improve their lots in life, but as soon as a player wants to do similar, it's "These kids today ... "
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Shaka must be the odds on favorite at this point for BECOY and if we can keep this level of success he'll have to be in the convo for National COY.
If the success builds game on game and year on year does he make MU his forever home? I think that prospect excites me as much or more as the hope for some NCAA success over the next few seasons.
MU was not a forever home for Al.
I am bullish on Shaka and hope he and his family enjoy MU and Milwaukee and stay as long as possible .
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MU was not a forever home for Al.
It was as far as coaching was concerned.
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It was as far as coaching was concerned.
Only because Marquette wouldn't let him take the Bucks job.
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Only because Marquette wouldn't let him take the Bucks job.
Pretty sure that was more about how the University was treating him re: compensation than an actual desire to do something different.
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Pretty sure that was more about how the University was treating him re: compensation than an actual desire to do something different.
OK thanks.
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Pretty sure that was more about how the University was treating him re: compensation than an actual desire to do something different.
Not sure I agree with this.
I suspect the Bucks job was a chance to build a program from the ground up. For Al, he could repeat what he did in college. Second, look who came in the second year — Kareem. That was going to happen with or without Al McGuire. A chance to coach Kareem — wow!
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Nah Ma, if you studied Al, it was about reaching the mountain top of the profession, hey?
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Al was really interested in the Buck's job. It was not a ploy for more money, regardless of how much loved money.
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Yeah, if Shaka continues to be successful, $$ won't be the reason he gets away. When you look at the money it took to move on from Wojo and bring Shaka in, there's enough money there to make sure that MU can match pretty much any offer that would come in.
Who were/are the big dollar supporters of MU ball and MU now. I used to know, but haven’t really heard as of late.
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Nah Ma, if you studied Al, it was about reaching the mountain top of the profession, hey?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Al was really interested in the Buck's job. It was not a ploy for more money, regardless of how much loved money.
I mean, his quote afterwards was “The priests at Marquette take a vow of poverty and they expect you to abide by it.” So I kinda think it was at least in part about money.
Anyway, it worked out for both the Bucks and Marquette.
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I mean, his quote afterwards was “The priests at Marquette take a vow of poverty and they expect you to abide by it.” So I kinda think it was at least in part about money.
Anyway, it worked out for both the Bucks and Marquette.
Another quote from Gasaway's book was Al's "Jesuit reply" when he was being coaxed to rescind his decision to choose the NIT over the NCAA bid: "I don't hear confessions, and you don't run this team."
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Another quote from Gasaway's book was Al's "Jesuit reply" when he was being coaxed to rescind his decision to choose the NIT over the NCAA bid: "I don't hear confessions, and you don't run this team."
Yeah, that would never work today. And it was a bad decision even then.
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Who were/are the big dollar supporters of MU ball and MU now. I used to know, but haven’t really heard as of late.
It has been said that the Michels from Michels Corp played a big role in the Teve Wojexit and subsequent Shakarrival
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Yeah, that would never work today. And it was a bad decision even then.
Was it? Elaborate on why you think that.
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Was it? Elaborate on why you think that.
Because they had a really good team that could made the Final Four. But instead they went to beat up on a bunch of also rans in the NIT.
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Nah Ma, if you studied Al, it was about reaching the mountain top of the profession, hey?
With Al, it was all about money. It's why he left at the age of 47. He wanted to make some real money.
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Because they had a really good team that could made the Final Four. But instead they went to beat up on a bunch of also rans in the NIT.
While I agree it wasn't a good decision I don't think it's fair to call the field also rans. I mean it's like a 2seed team playing the field of 5 and 6 seeds.
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I just meant also rans because they didn't make the NCAA.
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Because they had a really good team that could made the Final Four. But instead they went to beat up on a bunch of also rans in the NIT.
Al probably benefited more in the long run by gaining publicity and further defining the program identity. My take on it has always been Al felt like he was screwed and wanted to make a statement. That helped define who he was and the program in future years and contributed to his legend. Also, the NIT was no where near what it is today. Winning it still meant something at that time.
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Al probably benefited more in the long run by gaining publicity and further defining the program identity. My take on it has always been Al felt like he was screwed and wanted to make a statement. That helped define who he was and the program in future years and contributed to his legend. Also, the NIT was no where near what it is today. Winning it still meant something at that time.
If winning the NIT still meant something, why was it such a controversial decision when it happened?
IMO, the only reason it helped the "Al legend" is because he eventually won it in 1977. If that didn't happen, it would have just been seen as a wasted opportunity.
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If winning the NIT still meant something, why was it such a controversial decision when it happened?
IMO, the only reason it helped the "Al legend" is because he eventually won it in 1977. If that didn't happen, it would have just been seen as a wasted opportunity.
Maybe 1977 happened because of 1970 in terms of program building and recruiting a certain type of player. There are plenty of coaches that won the NCAA that aren't the legend that AL became. It wasn't only because of 1977
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Maybe 1977 happened because of 1970 in terms of program building and recruiting a certain type of player. There are plenty of coaches that won the NCAA that aren't the legend that AL became. It wasn't only because of 1977
I don't understand why choosing to go to the NIT instead of the NCAA helped to build the program and recruit a certain type of player. Wasn't he already getting those types of players? Thompson had already graduated. Meminger and Brell were on the 1970 team, Chones was on the team but ineligible as a freshman.
This is just my opinion obviously, but I think these are things that we tell ourselves for why Al made this choice. But I think it's more the stuff of legend.
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I don't understand why choosing to go to the NIT instead of the NCAA helped to build the program and recruit a certain type of player. Wasn't he already getting those types of players? Thompson had already graduated. Meminger and Brell were on the 1970 team, Chones was on the team but ineligible as a freshman.
This is just my opinion obviously, but I think these are things that we tell ourselves for why Al made this choice. But I think it's more the stuff of legend.
I think it is just reinforced who he was and made the program more desirable to his target recruit. More of a big picture thing. Hell, I was 10 at the time what do I know. Had they taken the NCAA bid and lost in the first or second round it would have been a blip on the radar, but here we are 50 years later talking about how Al turned down the NCAA and won the NIT.
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1970's NIT had a pretty good group of "also-rans":
Dr. J
Pistol Pete
Dean Smith coaching UNC
Bob Knight coaching Army (I think that was his last year there)
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There are plenty of coaches that won the NCAA that aren't the legend that AL became. It wasn't only because of 1977
Al became a legend because:
1. He won in 1977 in dramatic fashion, his very last game as a coach, to cap a decade in which he put Marquette basketball on the map.
2. He was a character, with a personality unlike any other.
3. His broadcasting career. A lot of people who knew little (or nothing) about his success at Marquette came to know him as a fun, provocative analyst -- kind of a similar situation to John Madden.
To Scoopers and the rest of those who love Marquette hoops, No. 1 on my list above obviously is No. 1, but otherwise the reason for his status as a "legend" probably is in a different order than I listed.
One could say the whole NIT situation contributed to the legend, as did the many Al stories that happened along the way, but nowhere near as much as the three things I listed.
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I think it is just reinforced who he was and made the program more desirable to his target recruit. More of a big picture thing. Hell, I was 10 at the time what do I know. Had they taken the NCAA bid and lost in the first or second round it would have been a blip on the radar, but here we are 50 years later talking about how Al turned down the NCAA and won the NIT.
I agree with this analysis
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Al became a legend because:
1. He won in 1977 in dramatic fashion, his very last game as a coach, to cap a decade in which he put Marquette basketball on the map.
2. He was a character, with a personality unlike any other.
3. His broadcasting career. A lot of people who knew little (or nothing) about his success at Marquette came to know him as a fun, provocative analyst -- kind of a similar situation to John Madden.
To Scoopers and the rest of those who love Marquette hoops, No. 1 on my list above obviously is No. 1, but otherwise the reason for his status as a "legend" probably is in a different order than I listed.
One could say the whole NIT situation contributed to the legend, as did the many Al stories that happened along the way, but nowhere near as much as the three things I listed.
Agreed. To me the argument for the NIT is: we won! It was still a big deal back then! Al walked to the beat of his own drum!
"We won": yes against an inferior field, high risk low reward.
"It was a big deal back then": yes it was. But the ncaa had definitely overtaken the NIT as the premier tournament. At the end of the day even another Elite 8 would be more impactful today to MU's bball tradition than an NIT championship.
Al's character: if we hadn't turned down the ncaa, would Al still be a character? Yes. There'd be a million great Al stories out there and his eccentric legend would still be memorable. In fact if we made the Final Four he might be an even bigger legend.
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Maybe 1977 happened because of 1970 in terms of program building and recruiting a certain type of player. There are plenty of coaches that won the NCAA that aren't the legend that AL became. It wasn't only because of 1977
Gang:
A little bit of history:
-- The 1969 basketball team was a free throw away from the Final Four. We were already near top of mountain and attracting the kind of recruits that were going to keep us a Blue Blood School through the 1970s.
-- The 1970 decision was in no small measure due to a recurring feud between Al McGuire and Adolph "the Bigot" Rupp. Coach Rupp had been beaten by an arrogant, quite flamboyant McGuire at the Mideast Regional in Madison in 1969. Rupp was angry and as an SEC champion and member of the NCAA "committee" he had influence in where we went. We went to the Midwest Regional in Oklahoma City rather than the close-in Mideast Regional ostensibly because the Bigot was afraid we would defeat his Wildcats yet again.
-- The NIT was really good in those days. Only conference champions and a select few independents made the tournament. There were 24 NCAA teams and everyone fell into one of those categories. The second best conference team, which today makes the NCAA hands down -- stayed home. In some cases, the second best team was better than the team that won the conference.
-- Marquette was one of the comparatively few NCAA teams that at the time didn't care less what your color was as long as you could play basketball. The talent line was coming to us regardless because of Coach McGuire and because you knew you'd get a "fair" (meaning McGuire treated everyone equally) shake at Marquette.
Could we have made the Final Four in 1970? We were a point away from doing it in 1969 and returned most of that team. The following year, 1971 (with a young Jim Chones), proved that making that pinnacle is easier said than done, when we were jobbed out of a win against Ohio State in Athens, GA.
The basketball gods are fickle. We had an incredible team in both 1974 and 1976. In the former, we ran up against a team with David Thompson, whose talents were on par with Michael Jordan's (thank you drugs for ruining that!). In 1976, we had the second best team in the nation but ran up against the last undefeated team in NCAA history -- Indiana -- in the regional final. When we won in 1977, we had the worst record up to that time of any team ever to win the National Championship. We were about the last team in -- Last in last out.
Let's hope we have this kind of a debate about Shaka in the years ahead. I'm looking forward to it!
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Gang:
A little bit of history:
-- The 1969 basketball team was a free throw away from the Final Four. We were already near top of mountain and attracting the kind of recruits that were going to keep us a Blue Blood School through the 1970s.
-- The 1970 decision was in no small measure due to a recurring feud between Al McGuire and Adolph "the Bigot" Rupp. Coach Rupp had been beaten by an arrogant, quite flamboyant McGuire at the Mideast Regional in Madison in 1969. Rupp was angry and as an SEC champion and member of the NCAA "committee" he had influence in where we went. We went to the Midwest Regional in Oklahoma City rather than the close-in Mideast Regional ostensibly because the Bigot was afraid we would defeat his Wildcats yet again.
-- The NIT was really good in those days. Only conference champions and a select few independents made the tournament. There were 24 NCAA teams and everyone fell into one of those categories. The second best conference team, which today makes the NCAA hands down -- stayed home. In some cases, the second best team was better than the team that won the conference.
-- Marquette was one of the comparatively few NCAA teams that at the time didn't care less what your color was as long as you could play basketball. The talent line was coming to us regardless because of Coach McGuire and because you knew you'd get a "fair" (meaning McGuire treated everyone equally) shake at Marquette.
Could we have made the Final Four in 1970? We were a point away from doing it in 1969 and returned most of that team. The following year, 1971 (with a young Jim Chones), proved that making that pinnacle is easier said than done, when we were jobbed out of a win against Ohio State in Athens, GA.
The basketball gods are fickle. We had an incredible team in both 1974 and 1976. In the former, we ran up against a team with David Thompson, whose talents were on par with Michael Jordan's (thank you drugs for ruining that!). In 1976, we had the second best team in the nation but ran up against the last undefeated team in NCAA history -- Indiana -- in the regional final. When we won in 1977, we had the worst record up to that time of any team ever to win the National Championship. We were about the last team in -- Last in last out.
Let's hope we have this kind of a debate about Shaka in the years ahead. I'm looking forward to it!
March is a crapshoot, aina?
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My dad had always told me that Marquette being placed in the Midwest had nothing to do with Rupp, but with the Big Ten champion always being placed in the Mideast region. And that even though that year's champion, Iowa, was more in the midwest than the mideast, that they decided to place them in the mideast due to tradition more than anything. That meant one of the other schools had to move, and Marquette was the furthest west of the remaining mideast schools.
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Gang:
A little bit of history:
-- The 1969 basketball team was a free throw away from the Final Four. We were already near top of mountain and attracting the kind of recruits that were going to keep us a Blue Blood School through the 1970s.
-- The 1970 decision was in no small measure due to a recurring feud between Al McGuire and Adolph "the Bigot" Rupp. Coach Rupp had been beaten by an arrogant, quite flamboyant McGuire at the Mideast Regional in Madison in 1969. Rupp was angry and as an SEC champion and member of the NCAA "committee" he had influence in where we went. We went to the Midwest Regional in Oklahoma City rather than the close-in Mideast Regional ostensibly because the Bigot was afraid we would defeat his Wildcats yet again.
-- The NIT was really good in those days. Only conference champions and a select few independents made the tournament. There were 24 NCAA teams and everyone fell into one of those categories. The second best conference team, which today makes the NCAA hands down -- stayed home. In some cases, the second best team was better than the team that won the conference.
-- Marquette was one of the comparatively few NCAA teams that at the time didn't care less what your color was as long as you could play basketball. The talent line was coming to us regardless because of Coach McGuire and because you knew you'd get a "fair" (meaning McGuire treated everyone equally) shake at Marquette.
Could we have made the Final Four in 1970? We were a point away from doing it in 1969 and returned most of that team. The following year, 1971 (with a young Jim Chones), proved that making that pinnacle is easier said than done, when we were jobbed out of a win against Ohio State in Athens, GA.
The basketball gods are fickle. We had an incredible team in both 1974 and 1976. In the former, we ran up against a team with David Thompson, whose talents were on par with Michael Jordan's (thank you drugs for ruining that!). In 1976, we had the second best team in the nation but ran up against the last undefeated team in NCAA history -- Indiana -- in the regional final. When we won in 1977, we had the worst record up to that time of any team ever to win the National Championship. We were about the last team in -- Last in last out.
Let's hope we have this kind of a debate about Shaka in the years ahead. I'm looking forward to it!
I'm sorry you're right it was better than it is now but this myth that it was basically on par with the NCAA tournament needs to be popped.
Your 1970 NIT field ranking at selection:
Army: NR 22-6
Cincinnati: 19 21-6
Duke: NR 17-9
Duquesne: NR 17-7
Georgetown: NR 18-7
Georgia Tech: NR 17-10
LSU: NR 22-10
Louisville: NR 18-9
Manhattan: NR 18-8
Marquette: 9 26-3
Massachusetts: NR 18-7
Miami (OH): NR 15-9
North Carolina: NR 18-9
Oklahoma: NR 19-9
St. John's: NR 21-8
Utah: NR 18-10
For the level of team we were that everyone gushes over the only team in that field who deserved to be on the court with us was Cincinnati.
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My dad had always told me that Marquette being placed in the Midwest had nothing to do with Rupp, but with the Big Ten champion always being placed in the Mideast region. And that even though that year's champion, Iowa, was more in the midwest than the mideast, that they decided to place them in the mideast due to tradition more than anything. That meant one of the other schools had to move, and Marquette was the furthest west of the remaining mideast schools.
Fluff, ole buddy, not sure I agree with your Dad. Sounds in part like it was developed by the advocates for making Adolph Rupp a College Basketball saint.
We weren't competing with the Big 10 for that regional slot. In fact, in those days, we played an extra game because we were not in a conference (usually against the OVC or the MAC champion). We were competing with Notre Dame for the last Major Independent slot in the Mideast. Either we or Notre Dame were going to Oklahoma City.
McGuire argued we should stay closer to our fans because we had a better record than Notre Dame.
Damn Domers.
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I'm sorry you're right it was better than it is now but this myth that it was basically on par with the NCAA tournament needs to be popped.
For the level of team we were that everyone gushes over the only team in that field who deserved to be on the court with us was Cincinnati.
Brother Galway:
I could go on all day about the differences in media exposure affecting ratings in those days compared to today. But suffice to say, the NCAA and Marquette made sure that never happened again.
The NCAA said if you're invited, you go. Period. Father John Raynor told Coach McGuire afterward that henceforth, the university would be making those decisions.
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Brother Galway:
I could go on all day about the differences in media exposure affecting ratings in those days compared to today. But suffice to say, the NCAA and Marquette made sure that never happened again.
The NCAA said if you're invited, you go. Period. Father John Raynor told Coach McGuire afterward that henceforth, the university would be making those decisions.
Fair you can go on about media and exposure about the rankings. That's why I included records. Only 4 teams (not including us) had 20+ wins. Still not an impressive accomplishment considering who we're supposed to be at that point.
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1970's NIT had a pretty good group of "also-rans":
Dr. J
Pistol Pete
Dean Smith coaching UNC
Bob Knight coaching Army (I think that was his last year there)
I'm sorry you're right it was better than it is now but this myth that it was basically on par with the NCAA tournament needs to be popped.
Your 1970 NIT field ranking at selection:
Army: NR 22-6
Cincinnati: 19 21-6
Duke: NR 17-9
Duquesne: NR 17-7
Georgetown: NR 18-7
Georgia Tech: NR 17-10
LSU: NR 22-10
Louisville: NR 18-9
Manhattan: NR 18-8
Marquette: 9 26-3
Massachusetts: NR 18-7
Miami (OH): NR 15-9
North Carolina: NR 18-9
Oklahoma: NR 19-9
St. John's: NR 21-8
Utah: NR 18-10
For the level of team we were that everyone gushes over the only team in that field who deserved to be on the court with us was Cincinnati.
Exactly. Look at Juan's list, all significant because of what they would do later, not at that time.
Bob Knight's Army teams were decent, but nothing special. His legacy is from IU, not from Army.
LSU was mediocre. Pistol Pete scored a million points but they beat nobody. Lost to UK both times, lost to UCLA, lost their other ranked games. Lost to Yale.
UMass had a first year Dr J. His true breakout was the next year. Again, decent, but nothing special.
That UNC team was probably Dean Smith's worst team since he got the UNC program cooking 5 years till he retired
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Brother Galway:
I could go on all day about the differences in media exposure affecting ratings in those days compared to today. But suffice to say, the NCAA and Marquette made sure that never happened again.
The NCAA said if you're invited, you go. Period. Father John Raynor told Coach McGuire afterward that henceforth, the university would be making those decisions.
The crazy thing, the NIT had arguably the better players that year. That said, Al's stance helped break up a lot of NCAA and social barriers in years to come with his stance.
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Fluff, ole buddy, not sure I agree with your Dad. Sounds in part like it was developed by the advocates for making Adolph Rupp a College Basketball saint.
We weren't competing with the Big 10 for that regional slot. In fact, in those days, we played an extra game because we were not in a conference (usually against the OVC or the MAC champion). We were competing with Notre Dame for the last Major Independent slot in the Mideast. Either we or Notre Dame were going to Oklahoma City.
McGuire argued we should stay closer to our fans because we had a better record than Notre Dame.
Damn Domers.
You could very well be correct.
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I'm sorry you're right it was better than it is now but this myth that it was basically on par with the NCAA tournament needs to be popped.
Your 1970 NIT field ranking at selection:
Army: NR 22-6
Cincinnati: 19 21-6
Duke: NR 17-9
Duquesne: NR 17-7
Georgetown: NR 18-7
Georgia Tech: NR 17-10
LSU: NR 22-10
Louisville: NR 18-9
Manhattan: NR 18-8
Marquette: 9 26-3
Massachusetts: NR 18-7
Miami (OH): NR 15-9
North Carolina: NR 18-9
Oklahoma: NR 19-9
St. John's: NR 21-8
Utah: NR 18-10
For the level of team we were that everyone gushes over the only team in that field who deserved to be on the court with us was Cincinnati.
One minor note, back in those days. The Rankings only went to top 20.
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One minor note, back in those days. The Rankings only went to top 20.
So again it's akin to a 3 seed beating up on a bunch of, at best, 5 seed cincy and the rest being 6 or 7 seed teams. How is that something to bang your chest over?
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Or the NBA.
Yeah, but I also don't really think that Shaka would want to jump to the NBA. I just get this feeling from him that he likes the culture and environments of college. You can see that he really likes being a mentor to these kids as well, which I don't think coaching in the NBA provides the opportunity.
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The crazy thing, the NIT had arguably the better players that year. That said, Al's stance helped break up a lot of NCAA and social barriers in years to come with his stance.
After 1970, the NCAA told it's member schools that going forward, they aren't allowed to turn down an NCAA tournament bid.
I'm not sure that's what Al was going for.
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After 1970, the NCAA told it's member schools that going forward, they aren't allowed to turn down an NCAA tournament bid.
I'm not sure that's what Al was going for.
He was going for fair seeding.
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Am I following this right, we were placed in Oklahoma? Is a flight from Milwaukee to Oklahoma really that much further than a flight to NYC? If the complaint was distance than I don’t buy it. I’ve also always heard Al just wanted to back home for the NIT
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Am I following this right, we were placed in Oklahoma? Is a flight from Milwaukee to Oklahoma really that much further than a flight to NYC? If the complaint was distance than I don’t buy it. I’ve also always heard Al just wanted to back home for the NIT
Brother Swoopem:
Going back to New York certainly was on Al's mind. When the schedule was written back in those days, we always played someone like Manhattan, St. John's or Fordham so Al could go home. The NIT was frosting on the cake.
It was not a matter of Oklahoma vs. New York. It was Oklahoma versus Dayton at the ubiquitous UD Arena, the latter of which was probably 4.5 hours away and a potential day trip. The bigger issue for Al was standing up to Adolph the Bigot and the NCAA, both of which kinda hated him at the time.
For what it is worth, there are two memorable things about the 1970 NCAA tournament, neither of which involved Adolph the Bigot. The first was UCLA won it all. The second was Al stood the NCAA up.
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Nice to be watching the Nevada vs Fresno State game, they roll the Villanova vs GT promo and the announcers turn it into a promo for Shaka Smart and his Golden Eagles and how they are in if the tourney started tomorrow and how they did not see this coming.