3 at end of regulation

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

There are about 3 pages of teeth gnashing and tantrums as to how Coach Wojo did not instruct his players to foul.  They were instructed to foul as soon as the ball crossed mid court.  Symir screwed up and love tapped his guy a few times and clearly hesitated.  Just as bad, Sacar went under the screen when the only shot that mattered was a 3. In an incredibly high pressure situation in an atmosphere where the players can barely hear themselves think a 18 year old and a 5th year senior both screwed up.  You documented jackasses with your posts on pages approx. 7-10 are ignorant petulant brats.  Foul was called in the TO, wojo was screaming it, the kids failed to execute it.  Things are not always what they seem, Wojo coached his balls off tonight and our Warriors left it all on the floor.

[Windyplayer]

There are about 3 pages of teeth gnashing and tantrums as to how Coach Wojo did not instruct his players to foul.  They were instructed to foul as soon as the ball crossed mid court.  Symir screwed up and love tapped his guy a few times and clearly hesitated.  Just as bad, Sacar went under the screen when the only shot that mattered was a 3. In an incredibly high pressure situation in an atmosphere where the players can barely hear themselves think a 18 year old and a 5th year senior both screwed up.  You documented jackasses with your posts on pages approx. 7-10 are ignorant petulant brats.  Foul was called in the TO, wojo was screaming it, the kids failed to execute it.  Things are not always what they seem, Wojo coached his balls off tonight and our Warriors left it all on the floor.

Point is well taken and not something I knew until coming to Scoop after the game, but you’re veering off with the name-calling in this and other posts tonight. Chill, my man.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Point is well taken and not something I knew until coming to Scoop after the game, but you’re veering off with the name-calling in this and other posts tonight. Chill, my man.

Sometimes complete idiots need to be informed that they are indeed complete idiots.

[pacearrow02]

There are about 3 pages of teeth gnashing and tantrums as to how Coach Wojo did not instruct his players to foul.  They were instructed to foul as soon as the ball crossed mid court.  Symir screwed up and love tapped his guy a few times and clearly hesitated.  Just as bad, Sacar went under the screen when the only shot that mattered was a 3. In an incredibly high pressure situation in an atmosphere where the players can barely hear themselves think a 18 year old and a 5th year senior both screwed up.  You documented jackasses with your posts on pages approx. 7-10 are ignorant petulant brats.  Foul was called in the TO, wojo was screaming it, the kids failed to execute it.  Things are not always what they seem, Wojo coached his balls off tonight and our Warriors left it all on the floor.

Amen!!!  So sick of hearing the second guessing on absolutely everything that happens in a game and blaming wojo. 

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Point is well taken and not something I knew until coming to Scoop after the game, but you’re veering off with the name-calling in this and other posts tonight. Chill, my man.

Actually ur veering off with everything that goes wrong immediately blaming the coach.  Its ignorant and pathetic and consistent from you and others.  Support the team, this board doesnt need u and the other collection of jackasses that, just like tonight, make ingnorant assumptions against Wojo at every disappointment!!

[Windyplayer]

Scorched earth tonight, huh?

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Scorched earth tonight, huh?

For aholes like u absolutely!! True character revealed at the end of regulation trashing the coach for everything that doesnt go your way like a bratty child.  This board has been unbearable for the last month with the ignorant attacks on our coach.

[sfmu22]

Never post, and I do get the wojo criticism, but there has been some entertaining ass games to watch this year.  We have a good team that shouldn’t be hated on half as much as I read on here.  Unless you thought we’d go undefeated this year the season has basically gone as expected so far.  Wisconsin, Providence, and Creighton were rough ones to watch but outside that it’s been pretty tight.

[WhoaJoe2020]

For aholes like u absolutely!! True character revealed at the end of regulation trashing the coach for everything that doesnt go your way like a bratty child.  This board has been unbearable for the last month with the ignorant attacks on our coach.

They just don't get how adversity reveals a persons true character. Faced with adversity, they lose their composure, and start running around like a flock of chicken littles. It's funny sometimes to watch them run around in circles, but after awhile their chirping gets annoying, and someone has to tell them the sky isn't falling and to STFU.

I think you just did that. Kudos

[T.V. Diener 34]

Totally agree and love Wojo.... the thing that had me scratching my head though was nobody telling Sacar to miss that last Ft in 2OT intentionally.... X had 0 timeouts and it almost cost them after allowing X to inbound with the clock stopped to either tie or beat us instead of forcing a full court heave... glad we got the W though

[Japabound]

Never post, and I do get the wojo criticism, but there has been some entertaining ass games to watch this year.  We have a good team that shouldn’t be hated on half as much as I read on here.  Unless you thought we’d go undefeated this year the season has basically gone as expected so far.  Wisconsin, Providence, and Creighton were rough ones to watch but outside that it’s been pretty tight.

I’m with you man. Scoop has become a bunch of name calling and im right you’re wrong nanananana!. I only read the recruiting thread 90% Of the time and even that gets hijacked for pages at a time by wonderful posters. Hehe. I liked scoop when it first started a lot more. Less fools and more people concerned with info rather than fighting like school kids.

[Cheeks]

For aholes like u absolutely!! True character revealed at the end of regulation trashing the coach for everything that doesnt go your way like a bratty child.  This board has been unbearable for the last month with the ignorant attacks on our coach.

About to lift off for Miami and I find myself agreeing with SandKnit on almost everything tonight.... Twilight Zone.  LOL.

If plane goes down, know that I died with Ian Ziereg on board from 90120...spoke to him last 15 minutes...my life is now complete. 

[WhoaJoe2020]

About to lift off for Miami and I find myself agreeing with SandKnit on almost everything tonight.... Twilight Zone.  LOL.

If plane goes down, know that I died with Ian Ziereg on board from 90120...spoke to him last 15 minutes...my life is now complete.

You got played.....

Ian Ziering is from 90210.

I don't know who that Ian Ziereg guy from 90120 is but he isn't famous.

[joparks]

I'll bite.  Situations like this do come down to coaching.  Sure, he can say it in the TO, scream it from the bench.  This isn't the first time this situation has happened this year.  They executed it in the Georgetown game.  They didn't tonight and it could have cost them.  It didn't.  They were lucky.  Wojo is there to lead and plan.  He's also there to develop players so they execute what is called from the sidelines.  It's what a coach does.  These guys have been practicing since October.  I'm hoping that they have run through several of these types of game scenarios many times.  Symir did try to foul but did a terrible job at it.  Sacar going below the screen is a complete failure.  Assuming all of these guys were told to foul in the TO,  if you are fouling after mid-court, you are guarding close.  Symir and Sacar obviously didn't get the message or they don't know how to foul in that situation.  Based on Symir's effort, it appears that he may in fact not know how.  I can't explain Sacar on that play.  If they didn't get the message or if they did and thought that's how they execute in that play, you may not want to hear that but it's on the coach.  We all know that a coach will take the criticism in these situations and deal with the failing in practice.  He's not going to lay the blame on the player (even if it belongs there).  I'll concede that Wojo told the team to foul.  If he didn't, that's just stupid.  But any coach worth their salt would look at that specific play and wonder what else they could have done to execute that play.  I would be concerned if I was Wojo at how poorly that play was executed.  Did they practice it enough?  At all?  Did Wojo or his plethora of assistants fail to coach the players in that situation?  Do all the players understand why you are calling for a foul?  The players should understand the why (game management).  All of these fall under coaching.  We want to provide excuses - They are young, fog of war, a lot was happening.  How do these excuses go away?  Through coaching!  Since this board is "anti-ripping the players" in situations like this, unfortunately the coach comes into the cross-hairs.  I would think that Wojo would take extreme ownership of this even if he told them to foul.  Why, because even if it was the players blowing it, the buck stops with the coach.  He's responsible for making sure all the chess pieces on the floor know what they are doing and how to do it.  That said, other than that and what happened right after halftime, I thought he had a good game.  The margin for error is thin and without their best player for the last 12 minutes, razor thin, but I liked the way the team played down the stretch. 

[tower912]

He told his team to foul.  Symir chose the soft bump style.  It wasn't called.  Freshman.    Oops.   People lost their mind about it because the resulting 30 ft shot reinforced their opinion that Wojo is a bad coach.   MU actually leading at that point on the road without Markus was despite Wojo, not thanks to him, in their opinion.

[willie warrior]

Sometimes complete idiots need to be informed that they are indeed complete idiots.

Says the chief name caller on this board who seems to possess expert knowledge on what qualifies as idiocy. Far superior to us rubes who just fell off the turnip truck. Always put you trust in the self proclaimed "elite"

[tower912]

Says the chief name caller on this board who seems to possess expert knowledge on what qualifies as idiocy. Far superior to us rubes who just fell off the turnip truck. Always put you trust in the self proclaimed "elite"

'your' trust.

[goldeneagle91114]

Sometimes complete idiots need to be informed that they are indeed complete idiots.

This is a free college sports message board...what do you expect? If you want throughout  conversation go to one of the paid sites

[robmufan]

Totally agree and love Wojo.... the thing that had me scratching my head though was nobody telling Sacar to miss that last Ft in 2OT intentionally.... X had 0 timeouts and it almost cost them after allowing X to inbound with the clock stopped to either tie or beat us instead of forcing a full court heave... glad we got the W though

Hey, someone is talking basketball!

If you miss the second one and they happen to still somehow get the ball down the court, a 2 would win it. I see your point, but I still rather see the FT made. Hell, on the rebound there could be a foul even...

[lurch91]

I'll bite.  Situations like this do come down to coaching.  Sure, he can say it in the TO, scream it from the bench.  This isn't the first time this situation has happened this year.  They executed it in the Georgetown game.  They didn't tonight and it could have cost them.  It didn't.  They were lucky.  Wojo is there to lead and plan.  He's also there to develop players so they execute what is called from the sidelines.  It's what a coach does.  These guys have been practicing since October.  I'm hoping that they have run through several of these types of game scenarios many times.  Symir did try to foul but did a terrible job at it.  Sacar going below the screen is a complete failure.  Assuming all of these guys were told to foul in the TO,  if you are fouling after mid-court, you are guarding close.  Symir and Sacar obviously didn't get the message or they don't know how to foul in that situation.  Based on Symir's effort, it appears that he may in fact not know how.  I can't explain Sacar on that play.  If they didn't get the message or if they did and thought that's how they execute in that play, you may not want to hear that but it's on the coach.  We all know that a coach will take the criticism in these situations and deal with the failing in practice.  He's not going to lay the blame on the player (even if it belongs there).  I'll concede that Wojo told the team to foul.  If he didn't, that's just stupid.  But any coach worth their salt would look at that specific play and wonder what else they could have done to execute that play.  I would be concerned if I was Wojo at how poorly that play was executed.  Did they practice it enough?  At all?  Did Wojo or his plethora of assistants fail to coach the players in that situation?  Do all the players understand why you are calling for a foul? 

An 18yr freshman that was playing a larger role than in past games due to injury had a brain fart in a close game in a hostile environment. He went for a foul, but didn't make sure it stopped play.  End of story. Love Sy, and Wojo is right, this will be a great teaching moment for the entire team.

[tower912]

Another fun talking point, make or miss the free throw up 2 and under 3 seconds to play.    Make, and they get to take the ball out o bounds and run their home run play.    Miss and gamble that no one gets two dribbles and a 70 foot 3 pointer.   Either way, if the the other team makes the prayer, the coach and player are obviously stupid.   

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I’m not a big fan of Wojo but he did nothing wrong there. Freshman playing a role he’s not used to. It happens.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Says the chief name caller on this board who seems to possess expert knowledge on what qualifies as idiocy. Far superior to us rubes who just fell off the turnip truck. Always put you trust in the self proclaimed "elite"

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Another fun talking point, make or miss the free throw up 2 and under 3 seconds to play.    Make, and they get to take the ball out o bounds and run their home run play.    Miss and gamble that no one gets two dribbles and a 70 foot 3 pointer.   Either way, if the the other team makes the prayer, the coach and player are obviously stupid.

I do think the better play there is to miss. Of course he may be concerned about fouling on the rebound and sending them to the line to tie.

[jsglow]

An 18yr freshman that was playing a larger role than in past games due to injury had a brain fart in a close game in a hostile environment. He went for a foul, but didn't make sure it stopped play.  End of story. Love Sy, and Wojo is right, this will be a great teaching moment for the entire team.

Word.  You can see Sy's love taps.  He'll learn from this. Kid played a gutty game when he was asked to step up bigger than ever before in his basketball life.  Like how 'bout that second free throw when his teammates told him to relax and focus?

[mu_hilltopper]

... the thing that had me scratching my head though was nobody telling Sacar to miss that last Ft in 2OT intentionally....

YES.  I was screaming at the TV to miss that final FT.   If the staff didn't call for it, Anim should have figured that out himself.

[Mr. Nielsen]

I think the 2nd free-throw should have been missed. My fear by missing is a foul shot, is a foul being called for over the back. Over the back by Theo. Geee, who would be shock if that did happen.

[jsglow]

YES.  I was screaming at the TV to miss that final FT.   If the staff didn't call for it, Anim should have figured that out himself.

I think it's a really tough call topper.  With a one point lead could something happen (like a foul) that puts them on the line for a win?  With a 2 point lead you are giving them the set play possibility but the only way to lose is if they drain a 3 off a full court pass and shot.

The reality is that their guy did get a decent look at an 18 footer and made a mistake.  Oh yeah, and let's not diminish Koby's sound decision to stay with his man as has been discussed elsewhere.

I do think there's room for improvement in our instinctive 'end of game' management.  We've had numerous situations this year where management in the under 10 second situation could have been better.  But look, many teams struggle.  You all know that last year's Creighton game is so bad it was almost impossible.

[mu03eng]

YES.  I was screaming at the TV to miss that final FT.   If the staff didn't call for it, Anim should have figured that out himself.

Missing that FT is less "certain" than fouling up 3 with under 6 seconds in my book. I'm fine with the play either way. Besides Sacar's FT% is 66% so he might miss even when not trying. Not telling him to miss intentionally takes the "miss everything and give them the ball OoBs and only down 1" boner off the table as well. If Cain does the right thing and instead of trying to catch it just pushes wide or to the back court this isn't even a thing we're worried about.

[jsglow]

Missing that FT is less "certain" than fouling up 3 with under 6 seconds in my book. I'm fine with the play either way. Besides Sacar's FT% is 66% so he might miss even when not trying. Not telling him to miss intentionally takes the "miss everything and give them the ball OoBs and only down 1" boner off the table as well. If Cain does the right thing and instead of trying to catch it just pushes wide or to the back court this isn't even a thing we're worried about.

Remind me Eng, on that long throw did Jamal misplay it?  I only saw it in real time.

[CTWarrior]

Word.  You can see Sy's love taps.  He'll learn from this. Kid played a gutty game when he was asked to step up bigger than ever before in his basketball life.  Like how 'bout that second free throw when his teammates told him to relax and focus?

Both he and Theo buried second FTs after missing the first badly.  Both makes were big.

[MUDPT]

Remind me Eng, on that long throw did Jamal misplay it?  I only saw it in real time.

I thought he got shoved out of the way, passer interference if you will. Jamal should have thrown it to somebody at half court after their made 3 and hopefully you get a touch and the game is over, like Creighton should have done to us last year.

[jsglow]

Both he and Theo buried second FTs after missing the first badly.  Both makes were big.

That first one by Theo looked like one of the kids trying to win Qdoba! 

[jsglow]

I thought he got shoved out of the way, passer interference if you will. Jamal should have thrown it to somebody at half court after their made 3 and hopefully you get a touch and the game is over, like Creighton should have done to us last year.

Did Jamal get his hands on it?  Not remembering that.

[Windyplayer]

For aholes like u absolutely!! True character revealed at the end of regulation trashing the coach for everything that doesnt go your way like a bratty child.  This board has been unbearable for the last month with the ignorant attacks on our coach.

Are you on drugs?

Edit: I merely questioned fouling decisions among some others without specifically referencing the end of regulation and made damn sure to acknowledge that Wojo did in fact call for a foul at that juncture. Fact of the matter is, there were other moments in the game during which Wojo made questionable decisions. Lo and behold, we can civilly discuss those while being pumped about the W. At any rate, you need to cool down. Nobody here is impressed with your over-the-top vitriol - well, maybe some who have responded on this thread, a few of which I’m surprised to see, frankly.

[mu03eng]

Did Jamal get his hands on it?  Not remembering that.

MUDPT is right that Cain was shoved as he made a play on the ball but he defintely got his hands on it and was trying to catch it. It's a tough in the moment thing but the right play is to do some form of "knock it down" or push pass it into the back court. I get that catching stops the play and he gets fouled which effectively ends the game but it's a high risk strategy in a scrum like that.

[Dr. Blackheart]

MUDPT is right that Cain was shoved as he made a play on the ball but he defintely got his hands on it and was trying to catch it. It's a tough in the moment thing but the right play is to do some form of "knock it down" or push pass it into the back court. I get that catching stops the play and he gets fouled which effectively ends the game but it's a high risk strategy in a scrum like that.

See Whitehead, Jay.

[#UnleashSean]

Players not executing because of a high pressure situation 3/4 of the way through a season, one being  a 5th year senior, should fall back on who coached them.

[wadesworld]

Players not executing because of a high pressure situation 3/4 of the way through a season, one being  a 5th year senior, should fall back on who coached them.

Yeah.  Wojo sucks.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Players not executing because of a high pressure situation 3/4 of the way through a season, one being  a 5th year senior, should fall back on who coached them.

Please.  No one is perfect.  And the guy who made the biggest mistake was on the floor in an end game situation for the first time in his college career. 

[jsglow]

MUDPT is right that Cain was shoved as he made a play on the ball but he defintely got his hands on it and was trying to catch it. It's a tough in the moment thing but the right play is to do some form of "knock it down" or push pass it into the back court. I get that catching stops the play and he gets fouled which effectively ends the game but it's a high risk strategy in a scrum like that.

Okay, makes sense.

[MU82]

In an ideal world, up 1 with less than 3 seconds left, if I were coach I'd have told Sacar to miss the second FT, with Theo and whomever the other rebounder was being told to absolutely not foul (you put them there, with hands up, to make the rebound a little less easy).

It's very, very unlikely that X would have been able to scramble to get in position to take any kind of make-able 2-pointer. They almost surely would have had to take a desperation 3 -- which, if it miraculously goes in, would have beaten you whether you led by 1 or 2.

By making the FT, as others have said, you give them time to set up a play they have practiced for just such situations, and as it turns out they got a pretty good look from Jones, who simply froze and didn't take an open 18-footer. (Wow ... can you imagine a good college basketball player, who wasn't coached by Wojo, making the wrong decision? Crazy!) 

I said "in an ideal world" because we see that basketball players -- even well-coached ones -- don't always do everything they are told to do. Wojo could have told Theo 10,000 times not to foul on the rebound, but instincts kick in and he goes over the back. Or maybe Symir reaches in during the scramble and gets called for a cheap foul.

So while I think missing there is the best strategy, I'm not "Oh, how stupid to make it!" or anything. I'm happy (and a little relieved) to have won with it having played out just as it did.

And while we're talking late-game strategy ...

The one I still don't get is why did Cain try to foul up 4? Haven't seen or heard a reasonable explanation for that one. By fouling, you set up the possibility of a make, an intentional miss, a rebound, a pass out for an open 3, and an instant tie. Makes no sense to me.

BTW, I think discussing strategy like this doesn't have to be a sign that one is unhappy with the coach. There are hundreds of little decisions that go on in a basketball game, and I find it interesting to discuss them, especially since I started coaching basketball myself.

For example, Wojo again went to a zone after a time-out by the opponent -- a strategy that had worked and been praised in earlier games. This time, X shredded the zone for an easy basket. So does that mean the strategy was "bad" this time? No, not in my eyes.

[mu03eng]

Players not executing because of a high pressure situation 3/4 of the way through a season, one being  a 5th year senior, should fall back on who coached them.

This is a take, I'll give you that.

It's not exactly settled science that having Sacar miss the second FT is the right move. There is an argument to be made both ways so that takes Sacar off the table for "fault by coaching". Cain could have done something different but also has never been in that position nor has just about anybody on that roster AND he was shoved with no foul call so that's a bit of a stretch for "fault by coaching". Additionally, Koby was disciplined and stayed with his man instead of ball watching which prevented an easy lay-up to tie so I guess there is some "fault by coaching" there, but in a positive way. Plus Koby played both OTs with 4 fouls and was critical to the win but we wouldn't want to give any of that to the coaching staff so........

[Windyplayer]

Settled science? No.  Does the missed fee throw give us a better chance to win? Unequivocally yes.

[mu03eng]

And while we're talking late-game strategy ...

The one I still don't get is why did Cain try to foul up 4? Haven't seen or heard a reasonable explanation for that one. By fouling, you set up the possibility of a make, an intentional miss, a rebound, a pass out for an open 3, and an instant tie. Makes no sense to me.

The same scenario you are postulating can happen on a foul when up three play as well, except a two will tie and a 3 wins. That's the risk side of an equation. Is it sound strategy to foul up 4 with 7 seconds left, not sure but the logic for why you do it is very similar to up 3, until you are up by 6 there is risk that if the opponent makes 3s while you are shooting FTs they can close that gap in less than 10 seconds. The whole point of the strategy up 3 is to A) kill some clock and B) make the other team go 94 feet for a tying or winning shot as opposed to have the tying/winning shot from 30 feet.

Would I have done it, no....but then again I haven't played in 3 games in the last two weeks where fouling the other team while you have the lead/tied has become such a prominent part of the games. No way to prove it but if the fouling up 3 hadn't come up so frequently of late, but I'm 100% confident the fouling up 4 strategy doesn't show up.

[Aughnanure]

There are about 3 pages of teeth gnashing and tantrums as to how Coach Wojo did not instruct his players to foul.  They were instructed to foul as soon as the ball crossed mid court.  Symir screwed up and love tapped his guy a few times and clearly hesitated.  Just as bad, Sacar went under the screen when the only shot that mattered was a 3. In an incredibly high pressure situation in an atmosphere where the players can barely hear themselves think a 18 year old and a 5th year senior both screwed up.  You documented jackasses with your posts on pages approx. 7-10 are ignorant petulant brats.  Foul was called in the TO, wojo was screaming it, the kids failed to execute it.  Things are not always what they seem, Wojo coached his balls off tonight and our Warriors left it all on the floor.

This is correct. Jamal and Symir tried. Refs refused to give it to them or the foul wasn't hard enough, but it wasn't Wojo not calling for it.

[mu03eng]

Settled science? No.  Does the missed fee throw give us a better chance to win? Unequivocally yes.

Do you know what unequivocally means? That it's settled, there is no room for doubt, so.....

That aside, it's about probabilities and when you factor all the probabilities:
-likelihood that Sacar misses even if trying to make
-likelihood that Sacar tries to miss and misses everything
-likelihood of hitting a 3 off an inbounds play with 2.3 seconds left
-likelihood of hitting a 2 off an inbounds play with 2.3 seconds left
-likelihood of hitting any shot off a missed FT
-likelihood of a foul on the missed FT/scramble
-likelihood of a foul on the inbounds play

There just isn't a 100% clear cut answer to say you should definitely do something. Given everything, I agree with the not missing the FT intentionally. Is it open for debate, absolutely, but it is far from an unequivocal decision.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

About to lift off for Miami and I find myself agreeing with SandKnit on almost everything tonight.... Twilight Zone.  LOL.

If plane goes down, know that I died with Ian Ziereg on board from 90120...spoke to him last 15 minutes...my life is now complete.

Sharknado - He's got (or had) family in West Haven, CT and was occasionally spotted here.

[Pakuni]

I wanted Sacar to miss that second free throw, but I don't think that strategy is as obvious as some seem to think.
The biggest risk is that your team gets called for a soft foul on the rebound  - definitely not beyond the realm of possibility with the combination of Theo on the floor and that officiating crew last night. That puts Xavier on the line with a chance to at least tie and possibly win the game.
I can't remember the teams involved, but I believe this exact scenario played out in a game earlier this season.
You also run the risk of Sacar missing so badly that he fails to hit the rim at all, and Xavier gets the ball out of bounds anyhow only down 1 (and yes, even in that scenario, it's better to be up 2 than 1).

I still was calling for the miss, but there's logic behind letting him shoot to make and take your chances with that.

[Windyplayer]

Do you know what unequivocally means? That it's settled, there is no room for doubt, so.....

That aside, it's about probabilities and when you factor all the probabilities:
-likelihood that Sacar misses even if trying to make
-likelihood that Sacar tries to miss and misses everything
-likelihood of hitting a 3 off an inbounds play with 2.3 seconds left
-likelihood of hitting a 2 off an inbounds play with 2.3 seconds left
-likelihood of hitting any shot off a missed FT
-likelihood of a foul on the missed FT/scramble
-likelihood of a foul on the inbounds play

There just isn't a 100% clear cut answer to say you should definitely do something. Given everything, I agree with the not missing the FT intentionally. Is it open for debate, absolutely, but it is far from an unequivocal decision.

I said “unequivocally” with regard to a “better chance” to win. I firmly believe, hence the unequivocally, that we had a better chance to win by missing the FT. You are absolutely right, it’s about probabilities. We had a higher probability to win with a missed FT.

[Lennys Tap]

The same scenario you are postulating can happen on a foul when up three play as well, except a two will tie and a 3 wins. That's the risk side of an equation. Is it sound strategy to foul up 4 with 7 seconds left, not sure but the logic for why you do it is very similar to up 3, until you are up by 6 there is risk that if the opponent makes 3s while you are shooting FTs they can close that gap in less than 10 seconds. The whole point of the strategy up 3 is to A) kill some clock and B) make the other team go 94 feet for a tying or winning shot as opposed to have the tying/winning shot from 30 feet.

Would I have done it, no....but then again I haven't played in 3 games in the last two weeks where fouling the other team while you have the lead/tied has become such a prominent part of the games. No way to prove it but if the fouling up 3 hadn't come up so frequently of late, but I'm 100% confident the fouling up 4 strategy doesn't show up.

????

Never, ever, ever heard of fouling up 4. This is not a “would I have done it?” issue. Nobody does it because it’s dumb. Not as dumb as intentionally fouling an 86% foul shooter with 20 seconds left in a tie game dumb, but dumb nonetheless.

[Windyplayer]

The biggest risk is that your team gets called for a soft foul.

THey DonT EvEN KNOw hoW to FOuL InTENTIonalLy.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

????

Never, ever, ever heard of fouling up 4. This is not a “would I have done it?” issue. Nobody does it because it’s dumb. Not as dumb as intentionally fouling an 86% foul shooter with 20 seconds left in a tie game dumb, but dumb nonetheless.

Yeah, there is no sound strategy to foul when you are up four. 

[MU82]

The same scenario you are postulating can happen on a foul when up three play as well, except a two will tie and a 3 wins. That's the risk side of an equation. Is it sound strategy to foul up 4 with 7 seconds left, not sure but the logic for why you do it is very similar to up 3, until you are up by 6 there is risk that if the opponent makes 3s while you are shooting FTs they can close that gap in less than 10 seconds. The whole point of the strategy up 3 is to A) kill some clock and B) make the other team go 94 feet for a tying or winning shot as opposed to have the tying/winning shot from 30 feet.

Would I have done it, no....but then again I haven't played in 3 games in the last two weeks where fouling the other team while you have the lead/tied has become such a prominent part of the games. No way to prove it but if the fouling up 3 hadn't come up so frequently of late, but I'm 100% confident the fouling up 4 strategy doesn't show up.

Even though we disagree on the strategy, I like your take on the make-or-miss FT. All kinds of things could have happened either way, and it ended up being fine. As I said, I'd have done the miss, but I'm not violently opposed to the make.

But I still see absolutely no reason to foul up 4. None. It just doesn't make sense to me.

It's way different from fouling up 3, something you do so a made 3 doesn't tie it (as has happened to us several times). There was no threat of a made 4 to tie. None.

[StillWarriors]

And while we're talking late-game strategy ...

The one I still don't get is why did Cain try to foul up 4? Haven't seen or heard a reasonable explanation for that one. By fouling, you set up the possibility of a make, an intentional miss, a rebound, a pass out for an open 3, and an instant tie. Makes no sense to me.

BTW, I think discussing strategy like this doesn't have to be a sign that one is unhappy with the coach. There are hundreds of little decisions that go on in a basketball game, and I find it interesting to discuss them, especially since I started coaching basketball myself.

For example, Wojo again went to a zone after a time-out by the opponent -- a strategy that had worked and been praised in earlier games. This time, X shredded the zone for an easy basket. So does that mean the strategy was "bad" this time? No, not in my eyes.

I was scratching my head on the attempted foul up 4 as well. I couldn't come up with a reason for that unless there were fouls to give, but there weren't. Not sure on  that one.

I was thinking last game it was a matter of time before teams were prepared for the switch to zone coming out of a timeout in a late game or half situation. X clearly was. Cat and mouse game, which is what makes it fun and maddening at the same time.

[mu03eng]

????

Never, ever, ever heard of fouling up 4. This is not a “would I have done it?” issue. Nobody does it because it’s dumb. Not as dumb as intentionally fouling an 86% foul shooter with 20 seconds left in a tie game dumb, but dumb nonetheless.

There's lots of stuff that was never done that is done more now, like fouling up 3 or going for it on fourth down with anything less than 4 yards to go.....fouling up 4 has less mathematical justification then fouling up 3 but it's still on the positive side of win probabilities versus letting it play out. The whole point is taking the 3 point play off the table.

By the way, the win probabilities of fouling while tied are also positive....nobody does it because of the obvious blow back and it was clearly a mistake from Wojo but considering MU got two shots to win/tie the game against Butler show's that its not quite as insane as people think.

[MU82]

fouling up 4 has less mathematical justification then fouling up 3 but it's still on the positive side of win probabilities versus letting it play out.

Really?

I went into writing because I was told there was no math, so maybe I just can't wrap my math-averse head around it, but how so?

[Lennys Tap]

YES.  I was screaming at the TV to miss that final FT.   If the staff didn't call for it, Anim should have figured that out himself.

+1000. Everybody knows in that situation the proper play is to intentionally miss the free throw. Your bigs(if you even station them on the line) should be statues, never going for the ball. Basketball 101.

Last night’s game was a GREAT win - so many heroic individual play and amazing effort. That doesn’t mean We can’t scratch our heads (again) about how clueless we are in basic end of game strategies.

[mu03eng]

Even though we disagree on the strategy, I like your take on the make-or-miss FT. All kinds of things could have happened either way, and it ended up being fine. As I said, I'd have done the miss, but I'm not violently opposed to the make.

But I still see absolutely no reason to foul up 4. None. It just doesn't make sense to me.

It's way different from fouling up 3, something you do so a made 3 doesn't tie it (as has happened to us several times). There was no threat of a made 4 to tie. None.

You are absolutely correct, and if there is under 10 seconds left you definitely wouldn't do it. At that point in time there was more than 10 seconds and you are trying to take 3 point shots off the table because that's the only thing that closes the gap. If they make a 3 there, it's a 1 point game they foul....even if we make both it's still just a 3 point game with the ball coming out of bounds with 5-6 seconds left (which is even worse than a 2 point lead with 2.3 seconds left) which gives X a chance to tie. Worst case, you foul up 4, they make both(definitely not certain with X) and then you hope to make both or at least one and you are no worse than you were before.

Again, would I do it? No because it's too outside conventional wisdom but from a probability standpoint given time, score, both teams FT% to date it's not a bad strategy.

[keefe]

This is a free college sports message board...what do you expect? If you want throughout  conversation go to one of the paid sites

Because they possess deeper insight and are a more genteel crowd?

I guess the monthly dues serve as a cleansing station where ignorance and hostility are scrubbed off the backs of the uncouth foul-smelling Swarthy Hordes

[MU82]

You are absolutely correct, and if there is under 10 seconds left you definitely wouldn't do it. At that point in time there was more than 10 seconds and you are trying to take 3 point shots off the table because that's the only thing that closes the gap. If they make a 3 there, it's a 1 point game they foul....even if we make both it's still just a 3 point game with the ball coming out of bounds with 5-6 seconds left (which is even worse than a 2 point lead with 2.3 seconds left) which gives X a chance to tie. Worst case, you foul up 4, they make both(definitely not certain with X) and then you hope to make both or at least one and you are no worse than you were before.

Again, would I do it? No because it's too outside conventional wisdom but from a probability standpoint given time, score, both teams FT% to date it's not a bad strategy.

Thanks for the explanation, but I'm not buying it as viable strategy. I'd love to sit down with Wojo over a beer (or a big cup of ice water) and ask him about it.

[GOO]

Can someone link a statistical study that concludes that it is right to foul when up 3 based upon actual data? I assume it is out there based upon all of the proponents on here that are for it. 

For me, without data to show otherwise, I would not foul when up 3 as the odds of someone hitting a three late in the game are generally not more than 40% and probably well under 40% given the pressure, etc.  And, then if they hit this shot it goes to overtime, where presumably one has a decent chance of winning in OT.  Or, maybe get a shot off if time left to win anyway.

The bottom line, you probably win at least 60 to 70 percent of the time by not fouling in regulation and if they hit it, one goes to OT and has X change of a win in OT.

I'd have to see data that fouling up 3 with X amount of time on the clock increases odds of winning the game based upon an actual large study to convince me that it is such a no-brainer to always foul up 3.

[MU82]

I would not foul when up 3 as the odds of someone hitting a three late in the game are generally not more than 40% and probably well under 40% given the pressure, etc.  And, then if they hit this shot it goes to overtime, where presumably one has a decent chance of winning in OT.  Or, maybe get a shot off if time left to win anyway.

You agree with the late Rick Majerus, who said fouling when up 3 was the only way to lose the game in regulation (FT, intentional miss, rebound, wide-open 3). Many of the same Scoopers who genuflect whenever Rick's name is mentioned apparently think he's an idiot regarding this strategy.

Calipari, who has won a little bit, says he has no hard-and-fast rule: "It depends on your team. In most cases I would ride it out and not do it. Other cases, depending on their team, you do it. I've won and lost both ways."

KenPom did a study a few years back and said there was little difference in outcome regardless of which strategy is used, though he leaned toward not fouling:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2015/03/18/up-3-in-the-final-seconds-do-you-foul-or-defend/24981367/

As you can see in that article, his study was imperfect.

There is no consensus, and there does not appear to be a study that presents evidence that fouling up 3 is the no-brainer that a lot of folks claim it is.

Personally, I agree with Calipari: I'd take each situation on a case-by-case basis.

[GOO]

You agree with the late Rick Majerus, who said fouling when up 3 was the only way to lose the game in regulation (FT, intentional miss, rebound, wide-open 3). Many of the same Scoopers who genuflect whenever Rick's name is mentioned apparently think he's an idiot regarding this strategy.

Calipari, who has won a little bit, says he has no hard-and-fast rule: "It depends on your team. In most cases I would ride it out and not do it. Other cases, depending on their team, you do it. I've won and lost both ways."

KenPom did a study a few years back and said there was little difference in outcome regardless of which strategy is used, though he leaned toward not fouling:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2015/03/18/up-3-in-the-final-seconds-do-you-foul-or-defend/24981367/

As you can see in that article, his study was imperfect.

There is no consensus, and there does not appear to be a study that presents evidence that fouling up 3 is the no-brainer that a lot of folks claim it is.

Personally, I agree with Calipari: I'd take each situation on a case-by-case basis.

Thank you.  So, either strategy is legit.  I'll stick with letting the other team try a well under 50% shot to tie.  Keep it simple unless the statistical evidence makes it clear otherwise.

What is the risk of a guy trying to go for the foul and getting called for an intentional. Does Symir go for a hard foul, grab a guy, wrap him up, a lot harder foul to get the foul called?  But do it wrong and you are more likely to lose the game.

Rowsey for one of his 4 point plays?

MU82, probably makes sense to take it case by case.  I can think back on some of our undersized teams where getting a missed free throw seemed like a challenge.  A tip out on the second free throw seems like a legit risk. I can also look back on some of our teams that could not shoot a 3 (or under 30% as a team) and would beg a team to foul if we are down 3.

[mu03eng]

There are various opinions are the foul up 3 and a lot of statistical evaluation all of which says.....it depends. It's definitely not a hard and fast rule it really should come down to style, opinion, and match-ups. Fouling up 3 is very similar to going for 2 instead of 1 at the end of the game, you are either winning or you are losing....you take the tie off the table (fouling up four still allows for a tie which is why it isn't crazy).

Fouling up 3 against X makes sense because they are bad at FT shooting (but they are also bad at 3pt shooting), fouling up 3 against MU makes some sense because they are both good at FTs and 3s. It makes the most sense against a team that doesn't hit FTs well but does make 3s. But again it's not hard and fast, anyone that treats it as such doesn't know what they are talking about.

https://kenpom.com/blog/yet-another-study-about-fouling-when-up-3/

http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/SSAC15-RP-Poster-Paper-An-Analysis-of-the-Basketball-Endgame.pdf