MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: 77ncaachamps on July 28, 2015, 11:55:17 AM
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I know there are hunters on this board (I am not one), so I'm curious as to what your hunting "code" is.
Apparently, this guy drops cash and hunts big game.
Why? Cuz he can? Likes the challenge? Small prick? I don't know.
But if he IS behind this killing, it's sad that someone will travel to another county, much less continent to hunt an animal that was revered and symbolic to the preserve.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/american-dentist-killed-cecil-lion-zimbabwe-article-1.2306401
http://heavy.com/news/2015/07/walter-palmer-minnesota-dentist-hunter-killed-cecil-the-lion-dead-shot-zimbabwe-illegal-arrested-photos-video-cubs-theo-bronchorst-trymore-ndlovu/
http://heavy.com/news/2015/07/walter-palmer-cecil-the-lion-africa-big-game-hunter-kills-rhinoceros-rhino-leopard-panther-pose-photos-pictures/
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What a real he-man...
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Might get interesting. US has an extradition treaty with Zimbabwe....
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Screw this d-bag. His BS about not knowing the lion was special is sickening. You shot the thing multiple times while tracking it and didn't notice it had a tracking collar? And if the story is true about them luring it off protected land with meat on a truck, then screw this guy. Its one thing when its uneducated, poor poachers flagrantly breaking rules and killing protected species, but this situation? Even worse, and more despicable.
And for the record, I'm not anti-hunting. I'm not a hunter myself but I have little against it. However, big game hunting in Africa in this day and age is pretty ridiculous to me. And nothing about this case seemed to "respect" the creature. Including beheading it and leaving its carcass behind.
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Sick people with guns.
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And for the record, I'm not anti-hunting. I'm not a hunter myself but I have little against it. However, big game hunting in Africa in this day and age is pretty ridiculous to me. And nothing about this case seemed to "respect" the creature. Including beheading it and leaving its carcass behind.
That's where I fall on this as well. The whole thing is pretty despicable.
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That's where I fall on this as well. The whole thing is pretty despicable.
Agreed on all accounts. Hell.... I actually agree with PETA on this one: "hunting is a coward's pastime."
If you're hunting for food, then I have no beef with you; just remember your old friend Benny the next time you can't fit those last few venison steaks into your freezer. If your purpose in hunting is to help "cull the herd," then I also take no exception to your leisure. Heck, I'll even recognize the camaraderie and family bonding experience of deer camp as a legitimate reason to hunt if that's your excuse for picking up a rifle (so long as the group itself observes one of the two aforementioned purposes).
But if you hunt strictly for the "thrill" of killing an animal and hanging its head on your wall, then there's something seriously wrong with you.
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Agreed on all accounts. Hell.... I actually agree with PETA on this one: "hunting is a coward's pastime."
If you're hunting for food, then I have no beef with you; just remember your old friend Benny the next time you can't fit those last few venison steaks into your freezer. If your purpose in hunting is to help "cull the herd," then I also take no exception to your leisure. Heck, I'll even recognize the camaraderie and family bonding experience of deer camp as a legitimate reason to hunt if that's your excuse for picking up a rifle (so long as the group itself observes one of the two aforementioned purposes).
But if you hunt strictly for the "thrill" of killing an animal and hanging its head on your wall, then there's something seriously wrong with you.
Agree 100%.
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Agreed on all accounts. Hell.... I actually agree with PETA on this one: "hunting is a coward's pastime."
If you're hunting for food, then I have no beef with you; just remember your old friend Benny the next time you can't fit those last few venison steaks into your freezer. If your purpose in hunting is to help "cull the herd," then I also take no exception to your leisure. Heck, I'll even recognize the camaraderie and family bonding experience of deer camp as a legitimate reason to hunt if that's your excuse for picking up a rifle (so long as the group itself observes one of the two aforementioned purposes).
But if you hunt strictly for the "thrill" of killing an animal and hanging its head on your wall, then there's something seriously wrong with you.
+1
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The hunters in my family care more about preserving the eco-system more than most people I know.
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Here's a question... how many of you 'Soh-tans are going to be looking for a new tooth-jockey soon.
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Here's a question... how many of you 'Soh-tans are going to be looking for a new tooth-jockey soon.
Not surprisingly, the Star-Tribune indicated that the office abruptly closed this morning when the story came out. Interestingly, when patients who hadn't been notified came to the door, there was a sign referring them to a local PR firm.
This guy is going to need a lot more than a PR firm.
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The hunters in my family care more about preserving the eco-system more than most people I know.
Agreed. Most are very into conservation and preservation cause its vital to continued enjoyment of their hobby/interest. That doesn't count for spending large sums of money to shoot a big cat from a truck.
I hope someone pees on his front doorknob.
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Maybe some locals should be allowed to hunt this POS for sport. Sickening.
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I don't agree with the hunter at all on this one but here in Wisconsin people shoot game for sport. Wolves are legal to hunt now and I'm pretty sure people aren't eating that meat. Large predator just like a lion. Coyotes can be shot any time of the day or night 365 days a year without a license or anything. Sell the hides and nothing else. Bear are ran to exhaustion by a pack of dogs until they climb a tree and are shot to drop to their death. Or they are baited and shot just like this lion was. Sure people eat bear but those big fur rugs look great hanging on walls.
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I don't agree with the hunter at all on this one but here in Wisconsin people shoot game for sport. Wolves are legal to hunt now and I'm pretty sure people aren't eating that meat. Large predator just like a lion. Coyotes can be shot any time of the day or night 365 days a year without a license or anything. Sell the hides and nothing else. Bear are ran to exhaustion by a pack of dogs until they climb a tree and are shot to drop to their death. Or they are baited and shot just like this lion was. Sure people eat bear but those big fur rugs look great hanging on walls.
Your sentence structure, it just flows so nicely.
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This dentist...there is something terribly wrong with his moral compass to do what he did. It seems he takes incredible pleasure in killing for the sake of...killing. Luring that animal out of the reserve with meat then taking 40 hours to kill it is beyond cruel. It makes no sense whatsoever.
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I don't agree with the hunter at all on this one but here in Wisconsin people shoot game for sport. Wolves are legal to hunt now and I'm pretty sure people aren't eating that meat. Large predator just like a lion. Coyotes can be shot any time of the day or night 365 days a year without a license or anything. Sell the hides and nothing else. Bear are ran to exhaustion by a pack of dogs until they climb a tree and are shot to drop to their death. Or they are baited and shot just like this lion was. Sure people eat bear but those big fur rugs look great hanging on walls.
Wolf tags are issued for population control, same with beer tags. Those are both lotteries.
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Wolf tags are issued for population control, same with beer tags. Those are both lotteries.
I am all for controlling the over-abundance of beer.
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I am all for controlling the over-abundance of beer.
I really should be doing my part right now, but it's not beer season until 5:30p tonight.
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I really should be doing my part right now, but it's not beer season until 5:30p tonight.
I think us college students get a special exception.
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I am all for controlling the over-abundance of beer.
I took down quite a lot of this dangerous prey this last weekend in Lake Geneva....should be safe to travel in that area again.
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One benefit about living in a rural area is that I get to hunt on my land. I hunt deer and turkey because both are delicious. There is an over population of coyotes in my area to the point that young livestock and some pets are getting killed. Coyotes are very difficult to hunt and I would do it if I had more time. There are folks who tan their hides and do various things with them.
One of the best parts of hunting is managing your land for habitat. I enjoy removing invasive plants and replacing with native trees and grasses as well as food plots for the herbivores. The previous owner was hands off and the place was infested with buckthorn, canary grass and other invasives -- resulting in poor animal habitat. Now, I capture game cam pictures of rabbits, raccoons, turkey, deer, coyote, skunk, opossum, chipmunks, squirrels and cranes. I also love the tactical planning part (using my army training -- the same terrain analysis applies) where I develop trails, clearings, food plots and treelines to steer animals (or understand their travel patterns) where I want them.
When I am successful, I also enjoy butchering and packaging the animal myself. You get to cut and prepare the meat how you like it and, as a result, it is absolutely superior to anything you buy in a store.
I have no time for those who use bait and have canned hunts where they are virtually guaranteed an animal. I also never hunt to put an animal on the wall. To me, only 5 percent of hunting is pulling the trigger. The other 95 percent are the fun activities that provides for that singular opportunity.
PS: I haven't seen one yet, but I will shoot a badger for being a badger ;)
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One benefit about living in a rural area is that I get to hunt on my land. I hunt deer and turkey because both are delicious. There is an over population of coyotes in my area to the point that young livestock and some pets are getting killed. Coyotes are very difficult to hunt and I would do it if I had more time. There are folks who tan their hides and do various things with them.
One of the best parts of hunting is managing your land for habitat. I enjoy removing invasive plants and replacing with native trees and grasses as well as food plots for the herbivores. The previous owner was hands off and the place was infested with buckthorn, canary grass and other invasives -- resulting in poor animal habitat. Now, I capture game cam pictures of rabbits, raccoons, turkey, deer, coyote, skunk, opossum, chipmunks, squirrels and cranes. I also love the tactical planning part (using my army training -- the same terrain analysis applies) where I develop trails, clearings, food plots and treelines to steer animals where I want them.
When I am successful, I also enjoy butchering and packaging the animal myself. You get to cut and prepare the meat how you like it and, as a result, it is absolutely superior to anything you buy in a store.
I have no time for those who use bait and have canned hunts where they are virtually guaranteed an animal. I also never hunt to put an animal on the wall. To me, only 5 percent of hunting is pulling the trigger. The other 95 percent are the fun activities that provides for that singular opportunity.
PS: I haven't seen one yet, but I will shoot a badger for being a badger ;)
Badgers are an exponentially greater threat to the beer population than hunters will ever be. So I'll give you a pass on that one on the grounds of preservation.
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I took down quite a lot of this dangerous prey this last weekend in Lake Geneva....should be safe to travel in that area again.
I took down 12 of those bad guys floating on the Wisconsin River as well.
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I wonder if Zimbabwe will charge this jackhole and ask the US to extradite him to Africa to face charges.
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From what I've read the man will not face any charges because he hired (un)professional guides and it is actually legal to bait a lion off a preserve and kill it.
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From what I've read the man will not face any charges because he hired (un)professional guides and it is actually legal to bait a lion off a preserve and kill it.
then what are the zimbabwe guides being charged with if it is not illegal?
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Hopefully he doesn't have lots of savings, because his career is over
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People
Eating
Tasty
Animals
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I hunt deer and turkey because both are delicious.
Anyone who has spent time in Germany knows how good venison is. I was stationed at Spangdahlem and the restaurants in that area all featured wild venison from the many nearby forests on their menu. One of the finest cuts of meat anywhere.
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Anyone who has spent time in Germany knows how good venison is. I was stationed at Spangdahlem and the restaurants in that area all featured wild venison from the many nearby forests on their menu. One of the finest cuts of meat anywhere.
Good cut of meat when of quality and prepared correctly.
Very hard to cook properly, small window or perfection.
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Good cut of meat when of quality and prepared correctly.
Very hard to cook properly, small window or perfection.
When people think of German food they index to sausage and pork but the finest dishes are centered on venison. The restaurants I frequented offered stellar venison.
I don't hunt but I have no problem with responsible sport. And if guys are bringing home venison I get the attraction. It can be fabulous.
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Agreed on all accounts. Hell.... I actually agree with PETA on this one: "hunting is a coward's pastime."
If you're hunting for food, then I have no beef with you; just remember your old friend Benny the next time you can't fit those last few venison steaks into your freezer. If your purpose in hunting is to help "cull the herd," then I also take no exception to your leisure. Heck, I'll even recognize the camaraderie and family bonding experience of deer camp as a legitimate reason to hunt if that's your excuse for picking up a rifle (so long as the group itself observes one of the two aforementioned purposes).
But if you hunt strictly for the "thrill" of killing an animal and hanging its head on your wall, then there's something seriously wrong with you.
What about not hunting for food, but to thin the herds? Otherwise they can reak havoc on crops, starve themselves, etc?
Just curious. I don't find hunting cowardice at all, especially when using a bow. That being said, I can see the argument.
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Hopefully he doesn't have lots of savings, because his career is over
I doubt its over. This will go away within a few weeks. USA is the land of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 9th chances.
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I doubt its over. This will go away within a few weeks. USA is the land of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 9th chances.
Pretty soon the peta and vegan buffoons will get tired, or be distracted by a tofu Bogo at Whole Foods.
That's who's outiside his practice right now.
These are the people who want us to feel bad for eating a cheeseburger. Bacon cheeseburger....oh no!
Not condoning his actions.
The Maassai tribe in Africa kill lions as a rite of passage. Same result. Dead lion. At the end of the day....
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I doubt its over. This will go away within a few weeks. USA is the land of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 9th chances.
I doubt many patients want to give money to a doctor so he can turn it over to African poachers for the opportunity to "do what he enjoys". But we'll see
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I doubt many patients want to give money to a doctor so he can turn it over to African poachers for the opportunity to "do what he enjoys". But we'll see
From what I understand, he has also given a ton of money to animal conservation, etc. A lot of that not reported, which of course should surprise no one in this soundbyte, 128 character world. It will be interesting to read the entire story.
At any rate, he'll keep plenty of patients and rebuild over the years. I sincerely doubt it will kill his career, though it could certainly harm it for the next few years.
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What about not hunting for food, but to thin the herds? Otherwise they can reak havoc on crops, starve themselves, etc?
Just curious. I don't find hunting cowardice at all, especially when using a bow. That being said, I can see the argument.
Try reading that again, he said he takes no exception to thinning the herd.
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From what I understand, he has also given a ton of money to animal conservation, etc. A lot of that not reported, which of course should surprise no one in this soundbyte, 128 character world. It will be interesting to read the entire story.
At any rate, he'll keep plenty of patients and rebuild over the years. I sincerely doubt it will kill his career, though it could certainly harm it for the next few years.
And Hitler was a patron of the opera. So what?
What this guy did was unconscionable. He takes joy in killing for killing sake.
I don't get the thrill in destroying life. I have taken life in the service of my country but it was never pleasurable. You do it because it is war. And if you do start to enjoy it you need to get out immediately.
There is a reason AFSOC made us sit down with shrinks. Like every TACP I know, I take Prazosin every night to tame the nightmares stemming from the awful things we experienced and witnessed, Normal, rational, compassionate human beings do not enjoy killing.
What I don't understand about this guy is he pays for the privilege of killing animals who are worth his attention only for the fact of being exotic. He kills animals because they are unusual.
Here is the only circumstance under which I would be impressed by that dentist killing a lion, bear, cougar, or any of the other animals he shot dead: if he fought them bare handed. But a coward like that would sh1t his pants without a mechanical weapon in his hands. At least in warfare the other side can legitimately fight back.
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Pretty soon the peta and vegan buffoons will get tired, or be distracted by a tofu Bogo at Whole Foods.
That's who's outiside his practice right now.
These are the people who want us to feel bad for eating a cheeseburger. Bacon cheeseburger....oh no!
Not condoning his actions.
The Maassai tribe in Africa kill lions as a rite of passage. Same result. Dead lion. At the end of the day....
Extremists aside when you think about why we don't think twice about industrialized slaughter of cows and pigs but are revolted by thoughts of people eating dogs or horses is only because we never formed a bond with cows and pigs. Other than bond/usefulness of an animal the only reason we don't have an industry around other mammals is size/output or how docile that animal was X years ago.
I understand the side that says it's cruel to the cow/pig just as it would be to the horse/dog.
BTW - i'm not a vegetarian. A few years ago I developed a beef allergy through a tick bite (before you ask, figuring out you have a beef allergy is WAY worse than living with it) which got me thinking about the above and now I very rarely eat pork.
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And Hitler was a patron of the opera. So what?
What this guy did was unconscionable. He takes joy in killing for killing sake.
I don't get the thrill in destroying life. I have taken life in the service of my country but it was never pleasurable. You do it because it is war. And if you do start to enjoy it you need to get out immediately.
There is a reason AFSOC made us sit down with shrinks. Like every TACP I know, I take Prazosin every night to tame the nightmares stemming from the awful things we experienced and witnessed, Normal, rational, compassionate human beings do not enjoy killing.
What I don't understand about this guy is he pays for the privilege of killing animals who are worth his attention only for the fact of being exotic. He kills animals because they are unusual.
Here is the only circumstance under which I would be impressed by that dentist killing a lion, bear, cougar, or any of the other animals he shot dead: if he fought them bare handed. But a coward like that would sh1t his pants without a mechanical weapon in his hands. At least in warfare the other side can legitimately fight back.
Since you brought up military...is it cowardice to drop a nuclear bomb from 20K feet on defenseless people? What about bombing in general?
Look, I get your argument. It's reasonable, rationale, etc. Hunting isn't for everyone. I find the what he paid for the experience to be totally irrelevent. That was the price to pay to hunt in that area. I find it more appalling that we are freaked out as a nation over this when we have millions of babies killed each year...defenseless babies.....and it doesn't even cost $50k.
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I'm really not a fan of trophy hunting, but really the entire public indictment against this dentist has gotten out of hand.
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Clearly the mofo doesn't know what to do with all his fookin' scratch, ai na?
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The Maassai tribe in Africa kill lions as a rite of passage. Same result. Dead lion. At the end of the day....
Thats like comparing Native American tribes hunting of buffalo to settles killing whole herds and leaving most of their bodies in the fields to rot. I'm not going to compare sport hunting with rifles of animals who have little fear of humans to much less developed tribes killing a lion with a spear at close range where that lion very well may kill you.
From what I understand, he has also given a ton of money to animal conservation, etc. A lot of that not reported, which of course should surprise no one in this soundbyte, 128 character world. It will be interesting to read the entire story.
He also has been charged with illegally killing a bear in Wisconsin, and then lying to a DNR agent about it, before. So clearly he's not immune from thinking he's above the law when it comes to such things.
I just find it shocking and unbelievable that someone of his experience and veteran of other big game safari hunts would have no knowledge of what was going on. Not to mention attempting to destroy the tracker.
Whoever posted that its legal to bait a lion off a preserve, that can't be right. And if so, why are the other hunters being prosecuted? It would completely undermine the point of a game preserve.
I had a coworker saying that since he had a legal permit to hunt a lion this is all nonsense and fluff. I told him this was like having a deer tag and walking over to a deer farm, cutting a hole in the fence while sprinkling corn, and then shooting deer that walked through the hole.
Of course the outrage is excessive, welcome to 2015. But if it brings any sort of visibility to this sort of shenanigans, then I view it worth it.
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From what I understand, he has also given a ton of money to animal conservation, etc. A lot of that not reported, which of course should surprise no one in this soundbyte, 128 character world. It will be interesting to read the entire story.
And Donald Sterling gave millions of dollars to the NAACP.
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then what are the zimbabwe guides being charged with if it is not illegal?
Baiting is perfectly legal but the there seems to be some misinformation as to whether baiting/luring a lion out of a protected habitat is illegal. Nevertheless, it is illegal to kill a collared lion, not to mention, the lion was shot on private property that was not licensed or permitted for a lion hunt. Either way, the hunt itself is deemed illegal (poaching).
The guide (Bronkhorst) is facing a $20,000 fine and (possibly) 10 years for "failing to supervise, control and take reasonable steps to prevent an unlawful hunt". The landowner (Ndlovu) is expected to testify for the state first in Bronkhorst's hearing, after which, he's expected to be charged as well. There is speculation that Ndlovu may have falsely represented the permit status of his land; otherwise, Bronkhorst could be charged with poaching as well if he knew the land was not licensed.
Palmer could be charged with poaching, though there are differing interpretations of Zimbabwean law as to whether a client can be charged with poaching if he/she was relying upon hired guides. That said, who gets convicted of anything comes down to the question of what did Bronkhost, Ndlovu and Palmer each know and when did they know it.
The worst case scenario for Palmer is if he knew (or had reason to believe) that the land was not permitted for a lion hunt or if anyone identified the collar prior to the initial arrow shot. In which case, all three would probably be charged (and most likely convicted) of poaching. That said, if it's likely to turn into a "he said"-"he said" between Ndlovu and Bronkhorst, it's possible that Palmer will be charged and extradited simply to get him to testify as to what he knew... not so much to determine his own guilt but to ascertain the guilt of Bronkhorst or Ndlovu; however, Zimbabwe may be reluctant to petition for extradition unless they know that they can convict Palmer because big game hunting is a big part of the economy there and they don't want to scare off would-be hunters who drop tens of thousands of dollars for just a few days in country.
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Since you brought up military...is it cowardice to drop a nuclear bomb from 20K feet on defenseless people? What about bombing in general?
Look, I get your argument. It's reasonable, rationale, etc. Hunting isn't for everyone. I find the what he paid for the experience to be totally irrelevent. That was the price to pay to hunt in that area. I find it more appalling that we are freaked out as a nation over this when we have millions of babies killed each year...defenseless babies.....and it doesn't even cost $50k.
There are legitimate morality questions around the strategic bombing campaigns against Germany and Japan that still are still being asked today. These issues are mandatory discussion at Air War College. And there are no simple answers.
Personally, I believe that the strategic bombing of Germany played a decisive role in hastening the end of that war. And the only alternative to invading the home islands was bombing Japan intro submission. I cannot possibly articulate an informed perspective on the question you raise in a pithy sound bite so I will simply say that strategic bombing ultimately saved lives - on both sides.
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Baiting is perfectly legal but the there seems to be some misinformation as to whether baiting/luring a lion out of a protected habitat is illegal. Nevertheless, it is illegal to kill a collared lion, not to mention, the lion was shot on private property that was not licensed or permitted for a lion hunt. Either way, the hunt itself is deemed illegal (poaching).
The guide (Bronkhorst) is facing a $20,000 fine and (possibly) 10 years for "failing to supervise, control and take reasonable steps to prevent an unlawful hunt". The landowner (Ndlovu) is expected to testify for the state first in Bronkhorst's hearing, after which, he's expected to be charged as well. There is speculation that Ndlovu may have falsely represented the permit status of his land; otherwise, Bronkhorst could be charged with poaching as well if he knew the land was not licensed.
Palmer could be charged with poaching, though there are differing interpretations of Zimbabwean law as to whether a client can be charged with poaching if he/she was relying upon hired guides. That said, who gets convicted of anything comes down to the question of what did Bronkhost, Ndlovu and Palmer each know and when did they know it.
The worst case scenario for Palmer is if he knew (or had reason to believe) that the land was not permitted for a lion hunt or if anyone identified the collar prior to the initial arrow shot. In which case, all three would probably be charged (and most likely convicted) of poaching. That said, if it's likely to turn into a "he said"-"he said" between Ndlovu and Bronkhorst, it's possible that Palmer will be charged and extradited simply to get him to testify as to what he knew... not so much to determine his own guilt but to ascertain the guilt of Bronkhorst or Ndlovu; however, Zimbabwe may be reluctant to petition for extradition unless they know that they can convict Palmer because big game hunting is a big part of the economy there and they don't want to scare off would-be hunters who drop tens of thousands of dollars for just a few days in country.
Are you a licensed lawyer in Zimbabwe or something?
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Are you a licensed lawyer in Zimbabwe or something?
Maybe Benny stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night....
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I'm really not a fan of trophy hunting, but really the entire public indictment against this dentist has gotten out of hand.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/07/29/as-the-world-mourned-cecil-the-lion-five-of-kenyas-endangered-elephants-were-slain/
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Are you a licensed lawyer in Zimbabwe or something?
Someone's got to head up MU's new Zimbabwean Law course. Kick things off with a good ol' lion hunting case study before diving into human rights and displacement issues.
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then what are the zimbabwe guides being charged with if it is not illegal?
From LionAid's website:
Accusations are swirling, but let’s tease these complicated strands apart.
1. It is completely legal to bait lions in Zimbabwe – it is standard practice. Cecil was shot with a bow and arrow from a blind. That is also legal. Cecil was shot badly and was only put out of his misery 40 hours later. That is what happens regularly in trophy hunting.
2. Cecil was shot outside a national park in a private hunting concession. That is also legal. It is not illegal to kill radiocollared lions.
3. But Cecil was shot in an area not assigned a lion quota. Supposedly the bait was set for a leopard and then Cecil came along. The professional hunter, Theo Bronkhorst told his client to shoot the lion, and then the hunt became illegal.
4. The professional hunter then allegedly attempted to destroy the radiocollar to hide the evidence. Allegedly the client was “furious” when he found that the lion was radiocollared. Allegedly, when a professional hunter engages a client in an area without lion quota, the lion will be listed as hunted in an area that does have quota. This could have been standard practice, but unfortunately Cecil was a well-known lion.
5. The professional hunter and the concession owner are now being investigated. Both were allegedly arrested and released on bail. Bronkhorst has been suspended from the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association. He will likely abscond rather than face trial unless he is confident of the possible bribes he has paid to an entirely corrupt judiciary. The concession owner is allegedly related to the Zimbabwe Minister of Transport and will therefore be immune from prosecution.
6. There seems now to be a desire to find the “client” who shot Cecil. Some say he is Spanish, some say he is American. Whatever his nationality, this man cannot really be prosecuted. A client does what his professional hunter tells him. A client usually has no idea about the laws and regulations of the country he is hunting in – he just buys a safari and then places himself in the hands of his professional hunter guide. Finding the client could be interesting to let him tell his side of the story, but in terms of legal prosecution this person is hardly important.
http://www.lionaid.org/news/2015/07/the-cecil-factor.htm#sthash.92WoJn7V.dpuf
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Might get interesting. US has an extradition treaty with Zimbabwe....
except it has some limitations which could help Palmer:
Zimbabwe has a extradition treaty with the United States, signed by President Bill Clinton in 2000, applicable to all crimes punishable by more than a year in jail. The crime must be punishable at that level in both countries in order for extradition to occur.
But in the United States, federal laws against poaching foreign animals appear to apply specifically to transporting an animal's carcass, or "trophies," after it's been killed -- and not to the act of killing itself.
The African lion is protected under the Convention on International Trade and Endangered Species, and is being considered for protection under the Endangered Species Act. That decision will likely not happen for months -- and regardless, a violation of the act carries a maximum criminal penalty of only "up to one year" of incarceration per violation.
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Regardless of whether or not it is determined what this jag did is legal he's got some serious psychological issues to even engage in something of this nature for fun, IMO. I think the recent words of Jimmy Kimmel sum it up nicely:
"The big question is why are you shooting a lion in the first place? I'm honestly curious to know why a human being would feel compelled to do that. How is that fun? Is it that difficult for you to get an erection that you need to kill things that are stronger than you?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LzXpE1mjqA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LzXpE1mjqA)
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Are you a licensed lawyer in Zimbabwe or something?
No... but when it comes to just about anything Africa-related, British media can't be beat. Not to mention, Zimbabwe's legal system is pretty much based on British law, so I'm simply following the limeys on this one.
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From LionAid's website:
Accusations are swirling, but let’s tease these complicated strands apart.
1. It is completely legal to bait lions in Zimbabwe – it is standard practice. Cecil was shot with a bow and arrow from a blind. That is also legal. Cecil was shot badly and was only put out of his misery 40 hours later. That is what happens regularly in trophy hunting.
2. Cecil was shot outside a national park in a private hunting concession. That is also legal. It is not illegal to kill radiocollared lions.
Regardless of this story, these two facts are pretty terrible, especially for somewhere preaching "conservation". Especially #2. Killing lions is one thing you can debate, but legally allowing the killing of animals specifically tagged and monitored for research purposes is garbage.
As the story progresses, I just realize more and more what an absolute joke trophy hunting is. Legal or otherwise.
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Regardless of this story, these two facts are pretty terrible, especially for somewhere preaching "conservation". Especially #2. Killing lions is one thing you can debate, but legally allowing the killing of animals specifically tagged and monitored for research purposes is garbage.
As the story progresses, I just realize more and more what an absolute joke trophy hunting is. Legal or otherwise.
It looks like Lion Aid actually has the radio-collar thing wrong. Generally speaking, it may be legal to kill a collared animal, but there was something about this scenario that made it illegal. It wasn't just that Cecil was collared, it appears to have something to do with the proximity to the refuge. In any event, the radio-collar was cited at Bronkhorst's arraignment as being some element of the illegal hunt.
As to the legitimacy of these hunts, quotas/permits for lions are determined by the number and locations of human-lion conflicts. Areas with higher conflict reports have higher quotas, so this reasoning seems to explain why the gov't (rightfully) allows such hunts, though it apparently wasn't the rationale for Dentisto the Lion Exterminator.
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I once heard that conservatives are compassionate. Guess that's been slightly overstated
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I don't see this as a legal question (though there might be legal dimensions.)
This is an ethical problem. Killing a lion for sport makes no sense on any level.
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Personally, I'm with Marco Rubio on this one.
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What's Rubio's stance? Create a Cecil rug?
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The Environmental Minister has started the extradition process for Palmer. I'd highly doubt the USJD will follow suit and we'll likely see remunerations of some sort made over the next months in Palmer's name and everyone will go back to their lives with this becoming nothing more than a footnote.
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Let's just hope the #mkelion doesn't know Cecil, otherwise serious retribution may be coming.
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Curious the uproar about Cecil while barely a whimper about Planned Parenthood selling body parts of the unborn.
For many years my friends and I would trailer our dogs out to places in the West and Midwest to bird hunt. We would employ guides who obtained ranches and farms where we could enjoy the dog work and harvest some mighty good eating. We were entirely in their hands as to where we could legally be. But rest assured we were all up-to-date on what the local laws were and abided by them. I assume the guy paid the professional guides to provide a legal hunt . If he is dodgy then he deserves all the criticism coming to him.
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The Environmental Minister has started the extradition process for Palmer. I'd highly doubt the USJD will follow suit and we'll likely see remunerations of some sort made over the next months in Palmer's name and everyone will go back to their lives with this becoming nothing more than a footnote.
Hard to say...but I don't think he's helping his case by dodging the US Fish and Wildlife Service. The most recent story I've seen indicates that they haven't been able to get in contact with him and are publicly asking him to call.
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Hard to say...but I don't think he's helping his case by dodging the US Fish and Wildlife Service. The most recent story I've seen indicates that they haven't been able to get in contact with him and are publicly asking him to call.
Doc, Isn't his issue with the US authorities bringing the head and skin back into the US?
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Doc, Isn't his issue with the US authorities bringing the head and skin back into the US?
Could very well be, but he might also have an issue under our extradition treaty with Zimbabwe. US officials are probably waiting to hear what Zimbabwe might charge him with, so they can determine whether the comparable offense in the US (for example, shooting a protected animal in an area where it wasn't permitted) meets the minimum requirements for extradition.
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Doc, Isn't his issue with the US authorities bringing the head and skin back into the US?
The lion's head and skin aren't in the US. They have been taken into custody in Zimbabwe.
It can take months, sometimes longer, to go through taxidermy and process an import permit.
Now, if the report that the head and skin are in custody turns out to be false and Palmer actually brought it back without a permit, ruh-roh, rorge.
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Some entrepreneur in MN will likely start sellin' tee shirts that say, "I Survived Bein' Dr. Palmer's Patient," ai na?
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Someone kills someone in Chicago, it gets a small blurb on the news. Someone kills a lion in Africa and everyone losses their crap. LOGIC
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Someone kills someone in Chicago, it gets a small blurb on the news. Someone kills a lion in Africa and everyone losses their crap. LOGIC
Chicagoans aren't as cute and furry as lions.
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Someone kills someone in Chicago, it gets a small blurb on the news. Someone kills a lion in Africa and everyone losses their crap. LOGIC
Why can't we get upset about both?
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Why can't we get upset about both?
Because we don't. Theres a million things way more terrible in this world then this, but were getting upset over a lion. It's a lion.
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Some entrepreneur in MN will likely start sellin' tee shirts that say, "I Survived Bein' Dr. Palmer's Patient," ai na?
Doc,
I understand you hunted fur bearing creatures back when there still were fur bearing creatures...
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Damn straight I did and very successfully, I might add. Havin' said that, would love to turn back the hands of time and chase the 2 legged deer now roamin' the Ave., hey?
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Damn straight I did and very successfully, I might add. Havin' said that, would love to turn back the hands of time and chase the 2 legged deer now roamin' the Ave., hey?
Nothing like sinking your teeth into fresh kill. Back in our day a hunter needed to pack in a pair of zircon-encrusted tweezers. Today's sportsman has little need for such accoutrement.
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That's what I'm hearin', too, hey?
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That's what I'm hearin', too, hey?
You should know, Doc. I'll bet the number of hunters coming into your shop to get fur out of their gums has decreased markedly since the '70's.
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Someone kills someone in Chicago, it gets a small blurb on the news. Someone kills a lion in Africa and everyone losses their crap. LOGIC
Earlier this week two young men in Minneapolis were shot in cold blood. They were very recent first generation African immigrants. Barely made the news here. No one knows their name.
Mark Dayton could comment on Cecil, but not this.
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Earlier this week two young men in Minneapolis were shot in cold blood. They were very recent first generation African immigrants. Barely made the news here. No one knows their name.
Mark Dayton could comment on Cecil, but not this.
You're both right....BUT the killing of the lion brings something the Minneapolis and Chicago killings cant possibly bring. A villain that nobody can defend and everyone can detest. As a culture we rarely have a common enemy any more and people are reveling in it.
Nobody approves of murder but the causes/influences/blames of those murders bring one or multiple of the following into the conversation, race-gun control-oppression-immegration-government. We can't agree on any of those so a) the conversation gets old and b) quite frankly the news of these murders gets old.
I'm offended by both but not outraged and i've started asking those that are outraged to turn their outrage into action and not just words on social media.
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Because we don't. Theres a million things way more terrible in this world then this, but were getting upset over a lion. It's a lion.
Speak for yourself. Lots of us here have the capacity to get upset about many things, and likewise happy about many things...all at the same time.
I'm not happy about the lion, or the recent spate of killings by police, or human trafficking, or the Iran nuclear deal, or the lack of any meaningful gun control in the U.S. I could list many others, but hopefully you get the point.
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You should know, Doc. I'll bet the number of hunters coming into your shop to get fur out of their gums has decreased markedly since the '70's.
Definitely, muck divin' ain't what it used to be, hey?
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Definitely, muck divin' ain't bet'rn what it used to be, hey?
FIFY
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Remind us old married farts what muck divin' is. :o
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Definitely, muck divin' ain't what it used to be, hey?
We were raised to hunt in the bush, Doc. Today's younger sportsmen simply don't know what wild game tastes like.
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Chicagoans aren't as cute and furry as lions.
+ 1
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Last night at a gathering with friends...
Person No. 1, "Someone is probably going to kill that guy who killed Cecil."
Person No. 2, "Good!"
As a guest at someone else's home, and in an effort to help preserve a peaceful atmosphere on a beautiful summer evening, I bit my tongue. I personally can't comprehend why someone would want to kill an animal like that, but people who think death is an appropriate penalty for killing an animal are really screwed up. Not that it will come as a surprise to any of you, but Person No. 2 is a vegan.
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Definitely, muck divin' ain't what it used to be, hey?
From what I a told muff diving has become skin diving...
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Last night at a gathering with friends...
Person No. 1, "Someone is probably going to kill that guy who killed Cecil."
Person No. 2, "Good!"
As a guest at someone else's home, and in an effort to help preserve a peaceful atmosphere on a beautiful summer evening, I bit my tongue. I personally can't comprehend why someone would want to kill an animal like that, but people who think death is an appropriate penalty for killing an animal are really screwed up. Not that it will come as a surprise to any of you, but Person No. 2 is a vegan.
I had a similar encounter yesterday with one of my millenials on staff. She's from Wisconsin, very left wing, anti-death penalty type. She said she hopes someone kills this guy. I asked her, aren't you against the death penalty, and for gun control, etc, etc? She said yes, but she can make an exception. So I asked her the obvious, so the guy that goes into the theater and kills a bunch of innocent people shouldn't get the death penalty, but the guy that LEGALLY killed this lion should be killed?
To her credit she said, "yeah, I know that's f'd up"
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Last night at a gathering with friends...
Person No. 1, "Someone is probably going to kill that guy who killed Cecil."
Person No. 2, "Good!"
As a guest at someone else's home, and in an effort to help preserve a peaceful atmosphere on a beautiful summer evening, I bit my tongue. I personally can't comprehend why someone would want to kill an animal like that, but people who think death is an appropriate penalty for killing an animal are really screwed up. Not that it will come as a surprise to any of you, but Person No. 2 is a vegan.
I agree. Some people have said he should be hunted it's disgusting I'm really against game hunting but it shouldn't be death penalty. It's like that one college cheerleader who shot the leopard or rhino or something and people were saying she should be raped etc I think people make impulse threats when they see something revolting.
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I had a similar encounter yesterday with one of my millenials on staff. She's from Wisconsin, very left wing, anti-death penalty type. She said she hopes someone kills this guy. I asked her, aren't you against the death penalty, and for gun control, etc, etc? She said yes, but she can make an exception. So I asked her the obvious, so the guy that goes into the theater and kills a bunch of innocent people shouldn't get the death penalty, but the guy that LEGALLY killed this lion should be killed?
To her credit she said, "yeah, I know that's f'd up"
Bet she drinks beer straight outta the bottle, too, hey?
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Curious the uproar about Cecil while barely a whimper about Planned Parenthood selling body parts of the unborn.
For many years my friends and I would trailer our dogs out to places in the West and Midwest to bird hunt. We would employ guides who obtained ranches and farms where we could enjoy the dog work and harvest some mighty good eating. We were entirely in their hands as to where we could legally be. But rest assured we were all up-to-date on what the local laws were and abided by them. I assume the guy paid the professional guides to provide a legal hunt . If he is dodgy then he deserves all the criticism coming to him.
Because that simply isn't true?
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Al Jazeera America @ajam 3m3 minutes ago
Opinion: ‘Cecil who?’ Zimbabweans ask http://alj.am/z35f via @wamagaisa
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/8/cecil-who-zimbabweans-ask.html?utm_content=opinion&utm_campaign=ajam&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow
"The Zimbabwean reaction on social media was mixed and reflected conflicting sentiments. Many were outraged. Others were skeptical about the international media coverage of the story. Zimbabwe is going through serious economic challenges. Most people have pressing needs — food, shelter and employment. Thousands of workers have been laid off after a Supreme Court judgment earlier this month that allows companies to terminate workers without offering severance packages. Itai Dzamara, a Zimbabwean democracy activist, has been missing for more than four months. His family, friends and sympathizers are worried about his safety and whereabouts. Unlike Cecil’s story, Dzamara’s has not received much international coverage."
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I'm hearing Cecil's bro may have bit the big one too.
We may have lion-gedon on the streets of mke now. #mkelion
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I'm hearing Cecil's bro may have bit the big one too.
We may have lion-gedon on the streets of mke now. #mkelion
Nope. Still alive and not his brother:
http://gawker.com/jericho-the-lion-is-still-alive-isnt-cecils-brother-1721595898
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Crean sucks
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Jams
If a cop goes hunting is he confused by zebras?
I'll hang up and listen to your response.
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Jams
If a cop goes hunting is he confused by zebras?
I'll hang up and listen to your response.
Cannot stop laughing
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Jams
If a cop goes hunting is he confused by zebras?
I'll hang up and listen to your response.
Do cops go hunting?
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Do cops go hunting?
All the time...
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All the time...
For animals.....this could get good....
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For animals.....
You said it!
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Two-legged deer, hey?
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John Beckwith: I know. Why can't we hunt something cool like a hawk or an eagle, something with some talons?
Jeremy Grey: That'd be awesome. We could get something like big game. Even like a gorilla or a rhinoceros or a f..king human being! That'll get you jacked up
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If only Americans were half -- make that 1/100th -- as outraged about the genocides that killed millions in Rwanda and Darfur and the Congo and elsewhere in Africa.
I mean, I wish the dentist didn't kill the lion. I can't get worked up about it, though. It's a lion. In the 10 minutes it took me to read this thread, there were probably 1,000 Africans executed, maimed, enslaved or tortured.
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Give it about 4 more weeks and people will be like dentist who?
And this playa will be back to racking in dough with a bad azz lion head adorning his operating room to boot!
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If only Americans were half -- make that 1/100th -- as outraged about the genocides that killed millions in Rwanda and Darfur and the Congo and elsewhere in Africa.
I mean, I wish the dentist didn't kill the lion. I can't get worked up about it, though. It's a lion. In the 10 minutes it took me to read this thread, there were probably 1,000 Africans executed, maimed, enslaved or tortured.
Seven years ago it was a sign of enlightenment to have a Darfur placard staked into the front yard. That went well.