Biggest Marquette "what if"s

[Lennys Tap]

The argument would go something like this. Chones stays, MU wins it all, MU becomes big headed and less hungry, fails to make it that far in 1974.   That's one version, there are others. 

Dumb argument.

[WarriorDad]

umm argument.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Mutaman]

#14 duzant foul out vs tOSU, aina?

Dean did not foul out. The refs fouled him out.

[Lennys Tap]

Dean did not foul out. The refs fouled him out.

+1

[djorling]

Was there ever an apology made by the refs of the Ohio State game in later years?  I seem to recall something like that happening, but not sure.  Thanks

[Mutaman]

Was there ever an apology made by the refs of the Ohio State game in later years?  I seem to recall something like that happening, but not sure.  Thanks

The way I remember it was when the guys voted for their all -opponent team at the end of the year, one of those refs was the fifth guy on the team. I still remember the look of glee on the ref's face when he called Dean's fifth foul.

I've always assumed this was Adolph Rupp's doing. He hated Al.

[alexius23]

Not that I fault any of them leaving early.....what if Chones, Lucas & McNeill had played together?

[Nukem2]

Not that I fault any of them leaving early.....what if Chones, Lucas & McNeill had played together?

A pipe dream.  An awfully bid front line.  Could not play all3 at the same time.

[4everwarriors]

Strongly disagree. In fact, their respective skill sets complement each other perfectly. Numbers 20, 22, and 31 woulda made a dynamite frontcourt going uptown with seashells and balloons.

[HouWarrior]

Most if not all of the key what ifs have been posted.

I have an odd one that lingers in my mind...a recent watching of the 30 for 30 on the Big East reminded me of a big what if.

I have always understood that MU had rebuffed inquiries/feelers to be part of the original Big East founding membership.  We were a uniquely successful independent that controlled its schedule , were able to make the NCAAs often and had little need for the protection/benefit of automatic conference berthing....so we passed on the Big East back in 1978.

But....What if MU was a charter Big Easter in 1979 (Hanks year 2)?

Instead of a continued ever changing independent slate, Horizon, Great Midwest, and Conference USAs...and fighting for recognition /relevance during the years in the desert...The MU Big East slate would have included a powerful nations best BB conference....in its heyday.
What if....Would the Big East from 1979 to 2004 have possibly meant.....Attracting recruits, a big name coach and allowing us to bounce back from the diverted direction of Hank/Rick ...down the slippery slope.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Most if not all of the key what ifs have been posted.

I have an odd one that lingers in my mind...a recent watching of the 30 for 30 on the Big East reminded me of a big what if.

I have always understood that MU had rebuffed inquiries/feelers to be part of the original Big East founding membership.  We were a uniquely successful independent that controlled its schedule , were able to make the NCAAs often and had little need for the protection/benefit of automatic conference berthing....so we passed on the Big East back in 1978.

But....What if MU was a charter Big Easter in 1979 (Hanks year 2)?

Instead of a continued ever changing independent slate, Horizon, Great Midwest, and Conference USAs...and fighting for recognition /relevance during the years in the desert...The MU Big East slate would have included a powerful nations best BB conference....in its heyday.
What if....Would the Big East from 1979 to 2004 have possibly meant.....Attracting recruits, a big name coach and allowing us to bounce back from the diverted direction of Hank/Rick ...down the slippery slope.

We may have been asked to start a football team and ended up in the AAC with UConn.

[WarriorDad]

Those of you who think killing football was a horrible decision need to consider the following:

1) In the past 20 years, very few football teams not in the Power 5 have been legitimate contenders for the national championship.

2) For Marquette to compete against the Alabamas, Auburns, Notre Dames, Tennessees, Wisconsins et al would have required massive investment in facilities, equipment, recruiting etc. We're just not enough of a football power to justify it even then.

3) Some of you will point to the example of Vanderbilt in the SEC, Northwestern in the BIG and Stanford out west. But all Vanderbilt is in the SEC is a coupon clipper living off SEC success. Northwestern occasionally is good and mostly bad and Stanford may be good enough when the PAC 10 is down but is not a perennial powerhouse.

4) If Marquette football were to have been successful, we would have either had to join the BIG 10, which likely would not have had us unless Northwestern or Illinois needed a win, or the Big 8. If we joined the Big 8, we eventually would have been caught up on the wrong side of realignment. I could not have seen us in either conference and there was no way long-term Notre Dame would play us regularly.

In short, we might have struggled through the 1960s with a football program but by the 1970s, we either would have been a Southern Illinois-style program with an occasional winning season and a small stadium and comparatively small investment, or we would have dumped it.

Why is the argument that we would have had to compete for a national championship or against those schools you mentioned? We don't fit that mode for any of our sports now except men's basketball and men's lacrosse.  2/3 of the Big Ten doesn't compete for football national titles or against those schools?  The same can be said for most major conferences.  Why is it not ok to be like Vanderbilt football?  Fresno State? San Diego State? Temple? Duke? Boston College?   Some years they are pretty good, some years awful. So what.

Your example of NW or Vanderbilt are wrong in my view. Those programs know what they are, you don't have to compete for national titles and still bring value, campus cohesion, pride to campus.  You think alumni of Vanderbilt or NW don't value those programs? The national stage they bring from time to time?

You go to extremes to say we would be SIU, but how do we know?  There are any number of schools that manage to have decent football, competitive football that goes in cycles, but is not the equivalent of SIU.  Temple struggled for years and has an all-time losing record, yet three straight bowl games and 28K attendance per year.  One example, but others.  It is also entirely possible to play football in one conference and every other sport in another. 

[WarriorDad]

Who is going to save us this time!

Sport                   School                              Year             Multi-year APR
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2004-2005   918      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2005-2006   927      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2006-2007   954      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2007-2008   970      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2008-2009   975      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2009-2010   980      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2010-2011   970      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2011-2012   960      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2012-2013   959      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2013-2014   949      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2014-2015   962      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2015-2016   966      
Men's Basketball   Marquette University   WI   2016-2017   950

Wasn't the consternation that players were brought in that had zero chance of graduating because of all the physical education credits that do not transfer to Marquette?

[Lennys Tap]

Wasn't the consternation that players were brought in that had zero chance of graduating because of all the physical education credits that do not transfer to Marquette?

If by "players" you mean one player you are correct. Every Marquette fan I know was ecstatic Jae Crowder came to Marquette. A few elitists (Scott Pilarz, Larry Williams and some dude named Jamie) disagreed. Good news, though - Pilarz and LW were fired quickly and left MU in disgrace. Jamie (aka Chico) disappeared after his assertions of "other shoes dropping" re Buzz Williams proved to be fake news.

[leever]

If by "players" you mean one player you are correct. Every Marquette fan I know was ecstatic Jae Crowder came to Marquette. A few elitists (Scott Pilarz, Larry Williams and some dude named Jamie) disagreed. Good news, though - Pilarz and LW were fired quickly and left MU in disgrace. Jamie (aka Chico) disappeared after his assertions of "other shoes dropping" re Buzz Williams proved to be fake news.

Chico's left after that?

I think not!

[WarriorDad]

If by "players" you mean one player you are correct. Every Marquette fan I know was ecstatic Jae Crowder came to Marquette. A few elitists (Scott Pilarz, Larry Williams and some dude named Jamie) disagreed. Good news, though - Pilarz and LW were fired quickly and left MU in disgrace. Jamie (aka Chico) disappeared after his assertions of "other shoes dropping" re Buzz Williams proved to be fake news.

Pretty sure it was Billy Hoyle that made the remarks about players, maybe he can clarify.  Heard mixed reviews on the Williams two, did good things and not so good things.  The only gripe for Buzz Williams in my book is the Big East shots he took.  That has proven to be fake news.  Have heard nothing but negatives regarding Father Pilarz.     

[dgies9156]

Why is it not ok to be like Vanderbilt football?   Some years they are pretty good, some years awful. So what.

Your example of NW or Vanderbilt are wrong in my view. Those programs know what they are, you don't have to compete for national titles and still bring value, campus cohesion, pride to campus.  You think alumni of Vanderbilt or NW don't value those programs? The national stage they bring from time to time?

You go to extremes to say we would be SIU, but how do we know?  There are any number of schools that manage to have decent football, competitive football that goes in cycles, but is not the equivalent of SIU.  T

I deleted parts of your post for brevity so I'll deal with the things I know well.

Let's start with Vanderbilt. They are a legacy SEC team dating to the conference's founding. I've been to enough Vandy football games in my life to almost qualify as a streetcar alum. They're awful. For a school that prides itself on excellence, football is an abomination. Does it bring the alums together -- not really. Just like I have serious doubts an MU football team would have even a fraction of the impact on our alumni base that our basketball program has.

Vanderbilt basketball is another story. It does for Vandy what Warrior basketball does for us.

And, I would add, if we were in the SEC in 1961, I doubt the Jesuits would have dropped football.

The Big 10 argument has some merit. But the difference is that every Big 10 school starts out thinking they will be competitive for a national championship. OK, except Illinois since they hired Lovie!

SIU is what our football program would be. Don't get me wrong, I actually really like SIU's football team. They try hard and they're fun to watch. But, they're still not very good. I've been to enough games in the last few years that they are indeed a source of pride for Southern Illinois residents. On an October afternoon, with the warm sun, the harvest in the air and the trees changing color, SIU football is indeed enjoyable.

To be anything other than SIU would mean a rejuvenated MU football program would have to compete against Wisconsin, the Green Bay Packers and, to some degree, the Brewers, for attention. Another question is where would we have played. Marquette Stadium was a dump and an Industrial Valley eyesore. It was torn down in the mid-1970s. County Stadium was to football stadiums  as Michael Jordan or Tim Tebow are to .300 hitting baseball players.

Fast forward to the 1990s. We would have had a really bad stadium problem when Miller Park went up and County Stadium went down.

[Goose]

4ever

I agree completely. Those three would have been unstoppable together. Honestly, the three different styles/strengths would have been beyond perfect fit.

[4everwarriors]

Dey were prototypical 3,4, and 5 position playas. Duzant get any better, than dem, aina?

[dgies9156]

The way I remember it was when the guys voted for their all -opponent team at the end of the year, one of those refs was the fifth guy on the team. I still remember the look of glee on the ref's face when he called Dean's fifth foul.

I've always assumed this was Adolph Rupp's doing. He hated Al.

No, I am much more cynical than Adolph Rupp.

We played that game in Athens, GA, on the campus of the University of Georgia. Athens is about an hour to an hour and a half east of Atlanta and was at the time a provincial southern community IMHO.

The ref in question was likely an SEC-based referee. The NCAA, then as now, used "neutral" referees in tournament games. For a game between Ohio State and Marquette in the Mideast Regional, the neutral refs were likely to be SEC.

Recall that about the only African-American players in the SEC at the time were Bill Ligon and Perry Wallace at Vanderbilt and Henry Harris at Auburn. Further, the SEC played "finesse ball" and relatively few SEC referees had seen the type of ball Marquette played at the time (to see the difference, just watch the Vanderbilt/Marquette NCAA game from Tuscaloosa in 1974). As a consequence, the referee in that game was ill-prepared for the type of game we played.

Add to all that was the social environment of the time in the south, where the federal court system finally was requiring the expedient implementation of Brown vs. Board (which had been adjudicated 17 years before) and you had a volatile socio-political environment with a lot of very provincial, angry people looking for an outlet to express their rage.

Dean Meminger happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[WarriorDad]

Let's start with Vanderbilt. They are a legacy SEC team dating to the conference's founding. I've been to enough Vandy football games in my life to almost qualify as a streetcar alum. They're awful. For a school that prides itself on excellence, football is an abomination. Does it bring the alums together -- not really. Just like I have serious doubts an MU football team would have even a fraction of the impact on our alumni base that our basketball program has.

Vanderbilt basketball is another story. It does for Vandy what Warrior basketball does for us.

And, I would add, if we were in the SEC in 1961, I doubt the Jesuits would have dropped football.

The Big 10 argument has some merit. But the difference is that every Big 10 school starts out thinking they will be competitive for a national championship. OK, except Illinois since they hired Lovie!

To be anything other than SIU would mean a rejuvenated MU football program would have to compete against Wisconsin, the Green Bay Packers and, to some degree, the Brewers, for attention. Another question is where would we have played. Marquette Stadium was a dump and an Industrial Valley eyesore. It was torn down in the mid-1970s. County Stadium was to football stadiums  as Michael Jordan or Tim Tebow are to .300 hitting baseball players.

Fast forward to the 1990s. We would have had a really bad stadium problem when Miller Park went up and County Stadium went down.

Vanderbilt is not awful, they aren't great either.  No chance of a national championship, but who cares.  They have an all-time record of 600-613, practically .500.

Five bowl games since 2008.  Beat ranked Kansas State last year.  Some years they do decent, some years they are not that good, but they are worth of a football program.  Many players that have made it to the NFL. 

Every Big Ten school starts out thinking they will be competitive for a national championship?  Indiana? Purdue? Minnesota? Maryland? Rutgers?   Not a chance.

Marquette stadium was left to disrepair, that doesn't mean money could not have been put into it.  County Stadium wasn't great, but still good enough to host NFL games for 40 years.  Marquette played there. UWM football played there.  That doesn't mean County Stadium was the only option.

UWM played football until 1974 at various levels.  An idea would have been to build a joint stadium for both programs to use.  That is one idea, but why be married to only County Stadium as the only option? 

[GGGG]

Vanderbilt's all time SEC winning percentage is .242.  The only team under .300.  In fact, as far as I can tell, that is the worst conference record of any team in a current P5 conference outside of those who switched in the last ten or so years.  (Like Rutgers.)

Vanderbilt as an awful football team considering where they are playing.

[MU82]

Vanderbilt's all time SEC winning percentage is .242.  The only team under .300.  In fact, as far as I can tell, that is the worst conference record of any team in a current P5 conference outside of those who switched in the last ten or so years.  (Like Rutgers.)

Vanderbilt as an awful football team considering where they are playing.

Can't believe Vanderbilt was bad when Stud Cutler was there. They musta won a couple national titles, no?

[warriorchick]

Vanderbilt's all time SEC winning percentage is .242.  The only team under .300.  In fact, as far as I can tell, that is the worst conference record of any team in a current P5 conference outside of those who switched in the last ten or so years.  (Like Rutgers.)

Vanderbilt as an awful football team considering where they are playing.

On the plus side, when you are done playing for those crappy teams, you leave with a degree from Vanderbilt.

[Mutaman]

No, I am much more cynical than Adolph Rupp.

We played that game in Athens, GA, on the campus of the University of Georgia. Athens is about an hour to an hour and a half east of Atlanta and was at the time a provincial southern community IMHO.

The ref in question was likely an SEC-based referee. The NCAA, then as now, used "neutral" referees in tournament games. For a game between Ohio State and Marquette in the Mideast Regional, the neutral refs were likely to be SEC.

Recall that about the only African-American players in the SEC at the time were Bill Ligon and Perry Wallace at Vanderbilt and Henry Harris at Auburn. Further, the SEC played "finesse ball" and relatively few SEC referees had seen the type of ball Marquette played at the time (to see the difference, just watch the Vanderbilt/Marquette NCAA game from Tuscaloosa in 1974). As a consequence, the referee in that game was ill-prepared for the type of game we played.

Add to all that was the social environment of the time in the south, where the federal court system finally was requiring the expedient implementation of Brown vs. Board (which had been adjudicated 17 years before) and you had a volatile socio-political environment with a lot of very provincial, angry people looking for an outlet to express their rage.

Dean Meminger happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

These are good points. I do recall that the next night , in the consolation game, the guys just buried Kentucky 91-74.