Biggest Marquette "what if"s

[Dr. Blackheart]

USC has been plenty successful.

And there have been a number of private schools who have seen success on and off.  Stanford, Boston College, TCU, etc.

University of Miami

[WarriorDad]

Thanks for posting the George Andre retrospective. I remember him as a hated Dallas Cowboy but my family had a great deal of pride in him as the last Warrior. It was nice to see him play even into the early 1970s.

As to the core topic, "what if" and football, there's a few final thoughts I'd like to make that are worthy of consideration:

1) The only successful private school Division 1 football team is Notre Dame. And they've had some very un-Notre Dame like seasons in the past 40 years or so. It's been quite awhile since they won a national championship and there's a long way from their next.

2) not everybody is going to win a natchamp in football., But wanting to win and building toward that goal is critical. Marquette had no hope of competing with the Power 5. not then. Not now.

3) Keep in mind when the decision was made. It was 1960 and even amateur demographrers could see what was coming. In but four years, the front end of the biggest population explosion this country had ever seen to that point was headed for college. By the late 1970s, the country would be educating 80 million people. Now look at Marquette's campus in 1960. It was extremely ill-equipped for the burden that was coming. As a consequence, the university built the Wehr science buildings, the language center, moved St. Joan of Arc Chapel, added on to the library and Engineering School, reconstructed Johnston Hall for the J-School, closed streets and created a campus. Every dime counted in those days and football, with its enormous costs and need for new facilities would have been, at a minimum, a huge distraction and possibly very detrimental to the university's goals at the time.

4) We got very lucky on basketball. When Al was retained to save the basketball program, it is doubtful anyone thought we were going to experience what was coming. Could we have caught lightening in a bottle twice with our football team? Never say never, but with decaying facilities and conflicting financial goals, it would have been really tough to hire and retain the best and brightest for MU football. Lou Holtz or Nick Saban to Marquette in those days? Yeah, right.

You are welcome.  We disagree on the other, but that is ok.

Private school football

BYU
Notre Dame
USC
Stanford
TCU
Miami
Duke
Wake Forrest
Northwestern
Baylor
Boston College
Syracuse
SMU
Temple
Vanderbilt
Tulane


Many more that are FCS

Bucknell
Fordham
Butler
Georgetown
Villanova
Colgate
Ivy League schools
Holy cross
Valparaiso
Vmi
Others

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think Dgies meant only successful catholic football school.

[warriorchick]

I think Dgies meant only successful catholic football school.

And he would fight you on the Vanderbilt thing.

[dgies9156]

You are welcome.  We disagree on the other, but that is ok.

Private school football

BYU
Notre Dame
USC
Stanford
TCU
Miami
Duke
Wake Forrest
Northwestern
Baylor
Boston College
Syracuse
SMU
Temple
Vanderbilt
Tulane


Many more that are FCS

Bucknell
Fordham
Butler
Georgetown
Villanova
Colgate
Ivy League schools
Holy cross
Valparaiso
Vmi
Others

Of these groups, the only ones that seem to be consistently excellent are USC and Notre Dame. Some might argue Miami and perhaps I was remiss in not including Miami and USC. TCU and Baylor might have a year or two where they cheat effectively enough to be in the Top 10, but those are few and far between.

But the core issue of being good enough to periodically hunt for or long for a natchamp remains. Unless you cheat (you listening SMU?), the costs aren't worth the results. That won't change.

Three private schools with consistently good, competitive football programs worthy of a Power 5 conference? not cool to keep going.

[dgies9156]

And he would fight you on the Vanderbilt thing.

Only if someone thinks Vandy football has been successful.

[WarriorDad]

Of these groups, the only ones that seem to be consistently excellent are USC and Notre Dame. Some might argue Miami and perhaps I was remiss in not including Miami and USC. TCU and Baylor might have a year or two where they cheat effectivelky enough to be in the Top 10, but those are few and far between.

But the core issue of being good enough to periodically hunt for or long for a natchamp remains. Unless you cheat (you listening SMU?), the costs aren't worth the results. That won't change.

Three private schools with consistently good, competitive football programs worthy of a Power 5 conference? not cool to keep going.

TCU has been good in some decades and not in others.  They claim national titles in the 1930’s, almost won one in the last 8 years.  Ranked the 28th best college football program all time, 4th best private school all time. They have a Heisman winner.

Why is it that we have to be top 10 to justify?  We aren’t a top 10 basketball program by the way.  I don’t understand that qualifier.  The goal should be competitive first, if top 10 is the min requirement why does MU bother to have an athletics program?

[alexius23]

If Chones, McNeil and Lucas had played one season together. No hate to the guys leaving early.    Still wish Chones had finished the season he had started...

[dgies9156]

Why is it that we have to be top 10 to justify?  We aren’t a top 10 basketball program by the way.  I don’t understand that qualifier.  The goal should be competitive first, if top 10 is the min requirement why does MU bother to have an athletics program?

We don't and aren't.

But we have to build toward the day when we again are as good as we were under Coach McGuire.

The fact is that doing that is eminently more likely in basketball, where three really good players and four strong ones can make all the difference in the world. Teams like SIU, Wichita State, Butler, Loyola etc., will never make the NCAA Championship in football. And, frankly, neither would we in football. Not cool! But all of us have a chance in basketball.

In some ways, being a St. Louis Cardinals fan is akin to what I am trying to explain. You know you're not going to win the World Series every year. But you're not going to accept a team that doesn't try to get there, isn't hustling and not making progress. Same for football. Tennessee isn't going to win every year (much to the chagrin of half the Volunteer State) but they damn well better be trying to and moving in the direction of someday overtaking Alabama.

Why is much of this board aggravated with Wojo? It's not happening fast enough. Forget the sh*t sandwich Coach Wojo inherited. We're Marquette! We're expecting excellence! And when we don't get it -- find a new coach!!!!!

[WarriorDad]

We don't and aren't.

But we have to build toward the day when we again are as good as we were under Coach McGuire.

The fact is that doing that is eminently more likely in basketball, where three really good players and four strong ones can make all the difference in the world. Teams like SIU, Wichita State, Butler, Loyola etc., will never make the NCAA Championship in football. And, frankly, neither would we in football. Not cool! But all of us have a chance in basketball.

In some ways, being a St. Louis Cardinals fan is akin to what I am trying to explain. You know you're not going to win the World Series every year. But you're not going to accept a team that doesn't try to get there, isn't hustling and not making progress. Same for football. Tennessee isn't going to win every year (much to the chagrin of half the Volunteer State) but they damn well better be trying to and moving in the direction of someday overtaking Alabama.

Why is much of this board aggravated with Wojo? It's not happening fast enough. Forget the sh*t sandwich Coach Wojo inherited. We're Marquette! We're expecting excellence! And when we don't get it -- find a new coach!!!!!

Completely unrealistic.  Wojo is fine.  Knowing you are a Cards fan now explains some things.   

[dgies9156]

Completely unrealistic.  Wojo is fine.

I'm not saying he isn't. I'm summarizing what I read.

I think this is a critical year for Coach Wojo but he's fine.

And, Cub Fan, we Cardinal fans do expect to win and we get testy when we don't. Fortunately, it's only been in the past few years that we have had problems and management is working to rectify those problems!

[WarriorDad]

I'm not saying he isn't. I'm summarizing what I read.

I think this is a critical year for Coach Wojo but he's fine.

And, Cub Fan, we Cardinal fans do expect to win and we get testy when we don't. Fortunately, it's only been in the past few years that we have had problems and management is working to rectify those problems!

You have come on strong lately since canning your manager.  My remarks on football or for that matter any college athletics program has to do with what is realistic and possible.  Our women’s volleyball team is not going to win a national title, nor is track or soccer for men or women.  They are still fine programs worth having and develop young people.  Football is the same for most schools who know they are not going to win a national championship, but the mentality isn’t boom or bust and drop it if it national championships aren’t won.

[Its DJOver]

I follow football very little (both college and professionally) but something that I think is interesting about the college game is the amount of bowl games there are, and the amount of prestige that come with winning even a lesser bowl. You can have a mediocre football program and still make a bowl game. Would MU have a program good enough to even make a bowl game if they had stuck with it? And how would having a football team affected the basketball program?

You can still have a successful football program without winning a national championship.

[jsglow]

To answer your question DJO.  No, and mediocre.

[Its DJOver]

To answer your question DJO.  No, and mediocre.

Don't know enough about football to disagree, and even if I did, not sure I would. Not having football allowed us to stick with the C7, which I think is the biggest single most important event since joining the Beast.

[GGGG]

If Marquette had stuck with football, we wouldn’t be in the Big East now. At best we’d be in a conference like the American, but more likely the MAC or even dropping to FCS playing in something like the Missouri Valley.

[GoldenWarrior11]

If Marquette had stuck with football, we wouldn’t be in the Big East now. At best we’d be in a conference like the American, but more likely the MAC or even dropping to FCS playing in something like the Missouri Valley.

Look at the corner that a school like UConn backed itself in.  It wished to pursue high-level Division I football in the 90's, leading to the elevation of their DII program into FBS in 2002.  They spent a truckload of money on their stadium, their facilities and the coaching staffs - which culminated in their 2011 Fiesta Bowl appearance (where they got destroyed by Oklahoma).  Not only did they get blown out, but they didn't even get many fans to the game.  They got passed over by the ACC and Big 12, gotten leapfrogged in their own Conference USA-inspired league by UCF, USF, Memphis, Houston and others.  You can even make the argument that their basketball program has suffered as a result, culminating in the firing of Kevin Ollie this past Spring.

The lesson here, and as you allude to, had Marquette continued with football, it would have inevitably and irrefutably negatively impacted basketball, as well as our entire athletics department.  We are - for the first time in our basketball history - aligned with similar athletic programs and institutions with a clear focus on men's basketball.  It was a bumpy ride to get there, but I'm glad where we ended up. 

[MU82]

Look at the corner that a school like UConn backed itself in.  It wished to pursue high-level Division I football in the 90's, leading to the elevation of their DII program into FBS in 2002.  They spent a truckload of money on their stadium, their facilities and the coaching staffs - which culminated in their 2011 Fiesta Bowl appearance (where they got destroyed by Oklahoma).  Not only did they get blown out, but they didn't even get many fans to the game.  They got passed over by the ACC and Big 12, gotten leapfrogged in their own Conference USA-inspired league by UCF, USF, Memphis, Houston and others.  You can even make the argument that their basketball program has suffered as a result, culminating in the firing of Kevin Ollie this past Spring.

The lesson here, and as you allude to, had Marquette continued with football, it would have inevitably and irrefutably negatively impacted basketball, as well as our entire athletics department.  We are - for the first time in our basketball history - aligned with similar athletic programs and institutions with a clear focus on men's basketball.  It was a bumpy ride to get there, but I'm glad where we ended up.

Nicely articulated.

[WarriorDad]

Look at the corner that a school like UConn backed itself in.  It wished to pursue high-level Division I football in the 90's, leading to the elevation of their DII program into FBS in 2002.  They spent a truckload of money on their stadium, their facilities and the coaching staffs - which culminated in their 2011 Fiesta Bowl appearance (where they got destroyed by Oklahoma).  Not only did they get blown out, but they didn't even get many fans to the game.  They got passed over by the ACC and Big 12, gotten leapfrogged in their own Conference USA-inspired league by UCF, USF, Memphis, Houston and others.  You can even make the argument that their basketball program has suffered as a result, culminating in the firing of Kevin Ollie this past Spring.

The lesson here, and as you allude to, had Marquette continued with football, it would have inevitably and irrefutably negatively impacted basketball, as well as our entire athletics department.  We are - for the first time in our basketball history - aligned with similar athletic programs and institutions with a clear focus on men's basketball.  It was a bumpy ride to get there, but I'm glad where we ended up.

Not if we had a program in football like Villanova or Georgetown, bot in the Big East.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Not if we had a program in football like Villanova or Georgetown, bot in the Big East.

At what cost?  To have an FCS-level program?  Georgetown is unable to award scholarships to football players, and their program is awful.  If we go down the path of scholarships, where do the Women's scholarships go to?  Where do you play?

No, no and no.  We are fortunate to not have football.  A majority of FBS teams (non-Power 5) are chasing a fool's dream in regards of big time football.  Schools are spending incessant amounts of money trying to compete with the established programs, but they do not have the history, the tradition or the past success to do so.  When a school like Kansas is spending hundreds of millions of dollars in football renovations, and schools like UConn, Memphis, Houston, UCF and USF are earning $1.7 million annually in television revenue, not only has the race already ended, but non-P5 programs are being lapped time and time again in resources, facilities and following with each passing year. 

There is already a division within FBS between the P5 and the G5.  If you are unable to compete against the high levels of your sport, why pump-in exuberant amounts of money in order to try attain the same levels of success?

[MU82]

UNC-Charlotte had a decent basketball program for years. It slipped the last decade or so but they were still in a good hoops league, the A-10.

Then they went against the trend and decided to start a football program. They built a nice little stadium on campus and they gave a pretty big budget to the program. It has been a total disaster on the field and attendance, which was high initially thanks to the anticipation and the new stadium, is horrible now.

Meanwhile, the entire athletic program joined C-USA to accommodate football. Like football, the basketball program is now a laughingstock.

[Herman Cain]

You are welcome.  We disagree on the other, but that is ok.

Private school football

BYU
Notre Dame
USC
Stanford
TCU
Miami
Duke
Wake Forrest
Northwestern
Baylor
Boston College
Syracuse
SMU
Temple
Vanderbilt
Tulane


Many more that are FCS

Bucknell
Fordham
Butler
Georgetown
Villanova
Colgate
Ivy League schools
Holy cross
Valparaiso
Vmi
Others

One of the three great historical strategic  mistakes of MU was giving up the football program . The program went through some tough years but was turning the corner when the administration pulled the plug.

I would love to see MU have a non scholarship FCS program. They can play in the Pioneer Football League. Games would be played at Hart Park and it would definitely be a loud and fun crowd environment  . Villanova, Georgetown and Butler all have similar programs.  Dayton has been consistently solid over the years. 

[WarriorDad]

UNC-Charlotte had a decent basketball program for years. It slipped the last decade or so but they were still in a good hoops league, the A-10.

Then they went against the trend and decided to start a football program. They built a nice little stadium on campus and they gave a pretty big budget to the program. It has been a total disaster on the field and attendance, which was high initially thanks to the anticipation and the new stadium, is horrible now.

Meanwhile, the entire athletic program joined C-USA to accommodate football. Like football, the basketball program is now a laughingstock.

UNC Charlotte basketball has had ONE winning conference season the last 10 years.  Football started their first season 5 years ago.  Basketball woes started at UNCC with hanging on to Lutz for too long and the two horrible hires after.  Now they have a brand new coach and prospects remain dim. 

[MU82]

UNC Charlotte basketball has had ONE winning conference season the last 10 years.  Football started their first season 5 years ago.  Basketball woes started at UNCC with hanging on to Lutz for too long and the two horrible hires after.  Now they have a brand new coach and prospects remain dim.

As I said: UNC-Charlotte had a decent basketball program for years. It slipped the last decade or so but they were still in a good hoops league, the A-10.

Thanks for the confirmation. You complete me.

[GGGG]

One of the three great historical strategic  mistakes of MU was giving up the football program . The program went through some tough years but was turning the corner when the administration pulled the plug.

Yes.  We right now we could be debating what place we would finish in the MAC West and assessing our odds of playing in the Motor City Bowl next year.  We also would be discussing this upcoming basketball season and where we would finish in the one or two bid league of which we are a member.

Sounds like fun.

I would love to see MU have a non scholarship FCS program. They can play in the Pioneer Football League. Games would be played at Hart Park and it would definitely be a loud and fun crowd environment  . Villanova, Georgetown and Butler all have similar programs.  Dayton has been consistently solid over the years. 

Villanova is a scholarship FCS program.  Regardless the crowds would be dismal and lame.  The Pioneer League averages 3,000 or so per game.  What on God's green earth does that do for Marquette?