Losing Formula: Kneejerk Substituting (Wojo's forte)

[jsglow]

In before the lock, and Ners getting another timeout.

This. There's lots of good stuff to discuss.  Somehow we can't do it as a group.

[GGGG]

He sure as hell should, yes!  But this is the coach that:

Maxed Derrick Wilson's playing time, while having Matt Carlino, Duane Wilson, and John Dawson as potential options to play guard positions.

Started Sandy Cohen ahead of Burton to start the 2015 season, and played the most talented guy on that roster, and returning All Big East Freshman, an average of 16 minutes per game.

Both of which led us to a 4-14 Big East campaign and missed NIT

Started Haanif Cheatham at PG frequently while Traci Carter was on the roster, and Traci played only 58% of available minutes.

We also missed the NIT that year, with a One and Done talent.

And now this year, after bringing in a grad transfer that is the caretaker/distributor type of PG, we see Markus Howard operating at PG, when nearly everyone could see from the last two seasons, and again early out the gate this year, Markus is without question best off the ball?

**Think the key word you use is "insight."  Wojo knows more than any of us regarding X's and O's of basketball by the sheer volume of his time in the game, around the game, as a player as an assistant, etc.  BUT, that is not translating as to having shown good judgement or good insight into how to manage his roster/personnel.
 

It had all been going so well.  Ah well.  Ners gonna Ners.

[tower912]

There are ebbs and flows to every basketball game, every basketball season.     Watch enough non-Marquette basketball, and you start to recognize patterns, game styles, sense when the momentum is about to change, see teams grow and evolve and learn.     What always frustrates me is that so many think that the ebbs, flows, momentum, rhythms that happen elsewhere can't or don't or shouldn't happen at Marquette.        Watch how other coaches substitute.    Watch how other teams defend the pick and roll.    Watch weakside defensive rotations.    Watch off the ball screening and motion.        Yes, some teams have Zion Williamson.   Or Bol Bol.     Watch how their minutes are managed and how their coaches set it up to get them the ball in their  preferred places.     
    Under Buzz, the alpha was always the guy who would get the ball at the top of the key with 7-8 on the shot clock.     The ball would move, the players would move, but if a shot was not found in the first 20 seconds, the ball would find the alpha (Blue, Butler, Crowder, Lazar, Jerel, Wes, DJ) at the top of the key with 7-8 seconds to go and they would make a  play.
    Last year, Theo was having his break out game.   He had played extremely well for about 12 consecutive minutes and Wojo took him out and the MU cognoscenti lost their minds about it.   Ignoring the fact that Theo had not played that many consecutive minutes all year and came out because he was gassed freshman big.    And yet, if you watched other freshman bigs, you saw that they never played too many consecutive minutes on other teams.     Coaches manage minutes.
    Which brings us back to the original argument.    There was a new starting line up yesterday.    Cain started for the first time in his college career, a reward, perhaps for the energy he had brought off the bench and the desire for a fast start.    It clearly didn't work.   The team started flat and Cain missed two 3 pt shots early.    Wojo started subbing looking for a better combination and was criticized for it because the team played poorly.    My question is this.   If Wojo HADN'T subbed, had left the same out of sync line up in for the first 6-7 minutes, would the same people be complaining the opposite point?     Floorslapper acknowledges he doesn't think Wojo is a good coach.   Fine.   But IMO, that means that whatever strategy Wojo employs, FSNers is going to criticize it.   
    I think Wojo is a 'paint-by-numbers' coach and not an alchemist or magician.    He continues to recruit gifted shooters who aren't quick enough on the defensive end, leaving his teams unbalanced.    And no one who breaks down a defense, gets into the paint and creates openings for the gifted shooters.   I haven't given up hope that he can get better, and I refuse to tear him down for making the exact same moves many, many successful coaches make. 

[brewcity77]

Started Haanif Cheatham at PG frequently while Traci Carter was on the roster, and Traci played only 58% of available minutes.

Stop this. Traci played all 24 mpg at the point. He was the starting point. Duane was the backup. Cheatham was the 3rd PG and by the end of the season wasn't playing there at all. You keep repeating this lie. Stop.

[Herman Cain]

There are ebbs and flows to every basketball game, every basketball season.     Watch enough non-Marquette basketball, and you start to recognize patterns, game styles, sense when the momentum is about to change, see teams grow and evolve and learn.     What always frustrates me is that so many think that the ebbs, flows, momentum, rhythms that happen elsewhere can't or don't or shouldn't happen at Marquette.        Watch how other coaches substitute.    Watch how other teams defend the pick and roll.    Watch weakside defensive rotations.    Watch off the ball screening and motion.        Yes, some teams have Zion Williamson.   Or Bol Bol.     Watch how their minutes are managed and how their coaches set it up to get them the ball in their  preferred places.     
    Under Buzz, the alpha was always the guy who would get the ball at the top of the key with 7-8 on the shot clock.     The ball would move, the players would move, but if a shot was not found in the first 20 seconds, the ball would find the alpha (Blue, Butler, Crowder, Lazar, Jerel, Wes, DJ) at the top of the key with 7-8 seconds to go and they would make a  play.
    Last year, Theo was having his break out game.   He had played extremely well for about 12 consecutive minutes and Wojo took him out and the MU cognoscenti lost their minds about it.   Ignoring the fact that Theo had not played that many consecutive minutes all year and came out because he was gassed freshman big.    And yet, if you watched other freshman bigs, you saw that they never played too many consecutive minutes on other teams.     Coaches manage minutes.
    Which brings us back to the original argument.    There was a new starting line up yesterday.    Cain started for the first time in his college career, a reward, perhaps for the energy he had brought off the bench and the desire for a fast start.    It clearly didn't work.   The team started flat and Cain missed two 3 pt shots early.    Wojo started subbing looking for a better combination and was criticized for it because the team played poorly.    My question is this.   If Wojo HADN'T subbed, had left the same out of sync line up in for the first 6-7 minutes, would the same people be complaining the opposite point?     Floorslapper acknowledges he doesn't think Wojo is a good coach.   Fine.   But IMO, that means that whatever strategy Wojo employs, FSNers is going to criticize it.   
    I think Wojo is a 'paint-by-numbers' coach and not an alchemist or magician.    He continues to recruit gifted shooters who aren't quick enough on the defensive end, leaving his teams unbalanced.    And no one who breaks down a defense, gets into the paint and creates openings for the gifted shooters.   I haven't given up hope that he can get better, and I refuse to tear him down for making the exact same moves many, many successful coaches make.

We need more pogo stick types.

[Floorslapper]

Stop this. Traci played all 24 mpg at the point. He was the starting point. Duane was the backup. Cheatham was the 3rd PG and by the end of the season wasn't playing there at all. You keep repeating this lie. Stop.

No sh$t Traci played all his minutes as a Point Guard.  He wasn't the starter at the season onset.  His role (is he a starter or coming off the bench) and minutes were all over the place.  Lots of volatility in his minutes.  He played 58% of available minutes.  Cheatham played 72.7% - which was more than junior JJJ at 56% (yet another idiotic underutilization.)

A fine example was Game 3 of that season against Iowa.  Cheatham with 7 turnovers while playing 24 minutes.  Traci played 13.

Traci played 14, 14, and 13 in the first 3 games of that season - then miraculously when placed into a major role at Preseason NIT (the next 3 games), team accomplished its best performance of that season - he played 32, 42 and 37 in those three games. 

You guys act as if Wojo has been bulletproof on his playing time allocations, rotations, and decision-making.  It really makes you look silly

[Floorslapper]

It had all been going so well.  Ah well.  Ners gonna Ners.

There's actually a better board for you guys - you know the echo chamber Dodds runs - where only blue and gold kool aid is allowed.  His board really is in much better alignment with your point of view along with TAMU, Wades, Tower and Brew.(whereby the approximate approval rating of Wojo based on posting history is 90+%).

You do realize this most recent offering of yours makes your signature quite ironic.  Talk about being a snowflake? 

[brewcity77]

No sh$t Traci played all his minutes as a Point Guard.  He wasn't the starter at the season onset.  His role (is he a starter or coming off the bench) and minutes were all over the place.  Lots of volatility in his minutes.  He played 58% of available minutes.  Cheatham played 72.7% - which was more than junior JJJ at 56% (yet another idiotic underutilization.)

A fine example was Game 3 of that season against Iowa.  Cheatham with 7 turnovers while playing 24 minutes.  Traci played 13.

Traci played 14, 14, and 13 in the first 3 games of that season - then miraculously when placed into a major role at Preseason NIT (the next 3 games), team accomplished its best performance of that season - he played 32, 42 and 37 in those three games. 

You guys act as if Wojo has been bulletproof on his playing time allocations, rotations, and decision-making.  It really makes you look silly

So you're trying to use the first three games of the season as your barometer for how Wojo coached the entire season? Do you realize how "silly" that makes you look?

No one is saying Wojo is bulletproof, but pushing this constant narrative that Cheatham was the starting point guard that season when he spent the vast majority of his time at the 2 and 3 on the wing is just ridiculous and false. Stop lying.

[wadesworld]

No sh$t Traci played all his minutes as a Point Guard.  He wasn't the starter at the season onset.  His role (is he a starter or coming off the bench) and minutes were all over the place.  Lots of volatility in his minutes.  He played 58% of available minutes.  Cheatham played 72.7% - which was more than junior JJJ at 56% (yet another idiotic underutilization.)

A fine example was Game 3 of that season against Iowa.  Cheatham with 7 turnovers while playing 24 minutes.  Traci played 13.

Traci played 14, 14, and 13 in the first 3 games of that season - then miraculously when placed into a major role at Preseason NIT (the next 3 games), team accomplished its best performance of that season - he played 32, 42 and 37 in those three games. 

You guys act as if Wojo has been bulletproof on his playing time allocations, rotations, and decision-making.  It really makes you look silly

So your claim is that the minutes a player gets in game 1 of the season need to be the minutes a player gets every game of the season or there are some serious mindgames going on and no player could ever perform well if a coach ever adjusts his lineups during the course of a season?

El oh freaking el.

Talk about looking silly!

[wadesworld]

There's actually a better board for you guys - you know the echo chamber Dodds runs - where only blue and gold kool aid is allowed.  His board really is in much better alignment with your point of view along with TAMU, Wades, Tower and Brew.(whereby the approximate approval rating of Wojo based on posting history is 90+%).

You do realize this most recent offering of yours makes your signature quite ironic.  Talk about being a snowflake?

That’s the board that you got banned from after you were banned from here, right?

[forgetful]

That’s the board that you got banned from after you were banned from here, right?

He was banned multiple times.

[Herman Cain]

That’s the board that you got banned from after you were banned from here, right?

Mr. Dodds runs a Pravda style operation with no opposing views allowed.

[Herman Cain]

There are ebbs and flows to every basketball game, every basketball season.     Watch enough non-Marquette basketball, and you start to recognize patterns, game styles, sense when the momentum is about to change, see teams grow and evolve and learn.     What always frustrates me is that so many think that the ebbs, flows, momentum, rhythms that happen elsewhere can't or don't or shouldn't happen at Marquette.        Watch how other coaches substitute.    Watch how other teams defend the pick and roll.    Watch weakside defensive rotations.    Watch off the ball screening and motion.        Yes, some teams have Zion Williamson.   Or Bol Bol.     Watch how their minutes are managed and how their coaches set it up to get them the ball in their  preferred places.     
    Under Buzz, the alpha was always the guy who would get the ball at the top of the key with 7-8 on the shot clock.     The ball would move, the players would move, but if a shot was not found in the first 20 seconds, the ball would find the alpha (Blue, Butler, Crowder, Lazar, Jerel, Wes, DJ) at the top of the key with 7-8 seconds to go and they would make a  play.
    Last year, Theo was having his break out game.   He had played extremely well for about 12 consecutive minutes and Wojo took him out and the MU cognoscenti lost their minds about it.   Ignoring the fact that Theo had not played that many consecutive minutes all year and came out because he was gassed freshman big.    And yet, if you watched other freshman bigs, you saw that they never played too many consecutive minutes on other teams.     Coaches manage minutes.
    Which brings us back to the original argument.    There was a new starting line up yesterday.    Cain started for the first time in his college career, a reward, perhaps for the energy he had brought off the bench and the desire for a fast start.    It clearly didn't work.   The team started flat and Cain missed two 3 pt shots early.    Wojo started subbing looking for a better combination and was criticized for it because the team played poorly.    My question is this.   If Wojo HADN'T subbed, had left the same out of sync line up in for the first 6-7 minutes, would the same people be complaining the opposite point?     Floorslapper acknowledges he doesn't think Wojo is a good coach.   Fine.   But IMO, that means that whatever strategy Wojo employs, FSNers is going to criticize it.   
    I think Wojo is a 'paint-by-numbers' coach and not an alchemist or magician.    He continues to recruit gifted shooters who aren't quick enough on the defensive end, leaving his teams unbalanced.    And no one who breaks down a defense, gets into the paint and creates openings for the gifted shooters.   I haven't given up hope that he can get better, and I refuse to tear him down for making the exact same moves many, many successful coaches make.

We don't have anyone on the team with the fully integrated complete set of skills as the guys you mentioned above. Great example of your analogy was the game  Vanders Junior year  versus The Johnnies. I went to that game and every single person in the building knew Vander was going to get the ball and drive it to the hole for the winner.  Yet he was still able to make the shot .

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QygEB3AYu2g

[Floorslapper]

So you're trying to use the first three games of the season as your barometer for how Wojo coached the entire season? Do you realize how "silly" that makes you look?

No one is saying Wojo is bulletproof, but pushing this constant narrative that Cheatham was the starting point guard that season when he spent the vast majority ~ 50% of his time at the 2 and 3 on the wing is just ridiculous and false. Stop lying.

Fixed.  Traci's minutes were all over the place all season long.

So your claim is that the minutes a player gets in game 1 of the season need to be the minutes a player gets every game of the season or there are some serious mindgames going on and no player could ever perform well if a coach ever adjusts his lineups during the course of a season?

El oh freaking el.

Talk about looking silly!

We missed the NIT.  Results speak for themselves.  With a one and done on the roster.  Finished 97th in the country in Ken Pom. 

That’s the board that you got banned from after you were banned from here, right?

Yes.  It's an honor, actually. 

The inability of some of you to have the emotional fortitude to tolerate a different opinion than your own is really quite "snowflake." 

But then again, I get it - it probably is frustrating to have put all your chips on Wojo and now 4.5 years in without an NCAA tourney win, 2 missed NIT's and one NIT Quarterfinal - to have to try to pretzel logic yourself into a position of suggesting he's a good coach.

[WarriorDad]

He sure as hell should, yes!  But this is the coach that:

Maxed Derrick Wilson's playing time, while having Matt Carlino, Duane Wilson, and John Dawson as potential options to play guard positions.

Started Sandy Cohen ahead of Burton to start the 2015 season, and played the most talented guy on that roster, and returning All Big East Freshman, an average of 16 minutes per game.

Both of which led us to a 4-14 Big East campaign and missed NIT

Started Haanif Cheatham at PG frequently while Traci Carter was on the roster, and Traci played only 58% of available minutes.

We also missed the NIT that year, with a One and Done talent.

And now this year, after bringing in a grad transfer that is the caretaker/distributor type of PG, we see Markus Howard operating at PG, when nearly everyone could see from the last two seasons, and again early out the gate this year, Markus is without question best off the ball?

**Think the key word you use is "insight."  Wojo knows more than any of us regarding X's and O's of basketball by the sheer volume of his time in the game, around the game, as a player as an assistant, etc.  BUT, that is not translating as to having shown good judgement or good insight into how to manage his roster/personnel.

And thus, what this comes down to is you disagree with his insights and think yours are better.  OK. that's fine.  But let's not pretend a man that has been involved in basketball at some of the highest levels doesn't also have an opinion on basketball, supported by data, supported by his experience is doing things basketball related for years. 

What ultimately comes down to in sports are hypotheticals.  If only he had put in this pitcher, or pinch hit that guy, or yanked him, started him, all done in a vacuum of impossibility of outcome. No one, absolutely no one knows if any of the favored moves done by Joe Blow behind the keyboard or on the couch would have worked out better.

NO ONE. 

So you go with people you believe will deliver results.  Sometimes they don't succeed to the levels you want, that doesn't mean your way is the right way, either.

[forgetful]

The inability of some of you to have the emotional fortitude to tolerate a different opinion than your own is really quite "snowflake." 

We can tolerate a difference in opinion just fine, and we do.  We just think your stance is moronic, and embarrassing. 

Also, your total lack of situational awareness (not realizing that many on here have more significant and higher level basketball experience than you), is frankly a bit concerning. 

[wadesworld]

Fixed.  Traci's minutes were all over the place all season long.

We missed the NIT.  Results speak for themselves.  With a one and done on the roster.  Finished 97th in the country in Ken Pom. 

Yes.  It's an honor, actually. 

The inability of some of you to have the emotional fortitude to tolerate a different opinion than your own is really quite "snowflake." 

But then again, I get it - it probably is frustrating to have put all your chips on Wojo and now 4.5 years in without an NCAA tourney win, 2 missed NIT's and one NIT Quarterfinal - to have to try to pretzel logic yourself into a position of suggesting he's a good coach.

I'm all for different opinions, when there is some logic to the different opinions and we don't have to go back to 5 years ago to find examples for our reasoning.

The main point here is that if I was in my mid-40s and was banned from two different Marquette basketball forums I'd probably look myself in the mirror and ask what the hell I was doing, and probably avoid continuing to create new accounts where I've already been banned more than once.

To each their own.

[brewcity77]

But then again, I get it - it probably is frustrating to have put all your chips on Wojo and now 4.5 years in without an NCAA tourney win, 2 missed NIT's and one NIT Quarterfinal - to have to try to pretzel logic yourself into a position of suggesting he's a good coach.

No, clearly you don't.

I think TAMU has been accurate in saying that thus far, Wojo has been a C-level coach. He's met expectations. Hasn't exceeded them, hasn't underachieved. I don't see anyone suggesting he's the next great coach, the consensus from those of us who have been patient is that there are reasons to be encouraged (the offense, recruiting) and reasons to be discouraged (the defense, overall results) and that this year is rubber meets the road time.

I've been patient because there have been enough reasons for optimism to allow Wojo to prove if he can get the expected results out of a favored team. If he doesn't deliver this year, you'll see that patience run out. If this season continues to look like this past Wednesday, people will jump ship. That's been the case for the past 5 years, but you don't get that because you wrote him off the second he dared to play Derrick Wilson ahead of John Dawson.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

[GGGG]

There's actually a better board for you guys - you know the echo chamber Dodds runs - where only blue and gold kool aid is allowed.  His board really is in much better alignment with your point of view along with TAMU, Wades, Tower and Brew.(whereby the approximate approval rating of Wojo based on posting history is 90+%).

You do realize this most recent offering of yours makes your signature quite ironic.  Talk about being a snowflake? 

Uh no.  You are the one who continues to use the same old arguments.  I mean, I don't really care.  But again, self-awareness is still one of your problems.

And no, I am not wearing blue and gold goggles.  Wojo has hardly been stellar as a coach.  But many of your arguments about him are ridiculous.  They've always been.

Have a good day.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I take it back.  What happened to you Blue Man?  Seems like you used to get it?  How bout this Hot Take?  I didn't bother to dive deeper than your first page upon joining.   

So - A consistent role, not getting yanked for missing a shot, investing into JJJ, Burton, Duane, Luke, Steve Taylor - looked like good ideas to you for Wojo Year 1? 

I totally agreed.  Unfortunately, Wojo did none of the above, and ultimately still struggles with defining a consistent role, and yanking guys out of the game for missing a couple of good shot attemtps - as we saw with Cain today 2:30 into the game.

My posts in this thread are not because I believe Wojo is above reproach or even about his substitution patterns. My comments from year 1 of Wojo are not relevant either to this conversation as the circumstances for that team and this team are completely different.

I played in high school and as a senior coached a park district team of freshman - juniors. I don't think that has any bearing on how much I know or understand about the game as compared to someone that didn't play. In fact I'm sure there are some on this board that didn't play that are absolutely more knowledgeable than me.

I just think it's absurd that you talk down to people and assume you know more because you played in high school. It's silly.

[Floorslapper]

We can tolerate a difference in opinion just fine, and we do.  We just think your stance is moronic, and embarrassing. 

Also, your total lack of situational awareness (not realizing that many on here have more significant and higher level basketball experience than you), is frankly a bit concerning.

#FakeNews.  The same handful of you Wojo fanboys get so bent/twisted.  Let's here your non-moronic "stance."  You think Wojo is a good coach?  Please - go ahead and lay out your case.  And P.S., your "we" number is diminishing by each season, and each game.  Your "we" is expecting us to get "shellacked" in Year 5 of the regime because we play the Number 1 team on a neutral floor. 

Uh no.  You are the one who continues to use the same old arguments.  I mean, I don't really care.  But again, self-awareness is still one of your problems.

And no, I am not wearing blue and gold goggles.  Wojo has hardly been stellar as a coach.  But many of your arguments about him are ridiculous.  They've always been.

Have a good day.

Same old arguments because we get the same old results and same old bizarre player personnel/rotation decisions.

I'm all for different opinions, when there is some logic to the different opinions and we don't have to go back to 5 years ago to find examples for our reasoning.

The main point here is that if I was in my mid-40s and was banned from two different Marquette basketball forums I'd probably look myself in the mirror and ask what the hell I was doing, and probably avoid continuing to create new accounts where I've already been banned more than once.

To each their own.

Considering it is the result of the same handful of grown men having to use a "report to moderator" feature because they simply can't "win" their arguments?  I'm not too concerned.  Furthermore, coming from a guy like you who lies about his experience and PM's he sends, it's even less of a concern.

[GGGG]

No one reports you because they don't "win."  They report you because of how you utilize the forum.  This is exactly what I mean by lack of self-awareness.  TSmith34 stated it best:

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56103.msg1011332#msg1011332

[wadesworld]

#FakeNews.  The same handful of you Wojo fanboys get so bent/twisted.  Let's here your non-moronic "stance."  You think Wojo is a good coach?  Please - go ahead and lay out your case.  And P.S., your "we" number is diminishing by each season, and each game.  Your "we" is expecting us to get "shellacked" in Year 5 of the regime because we play the Number 1 team on a neutral floor. 

Same old arguments because we get the same old results and same old bizarre player personnel/rotation decisions.

Considering it is the result of the same handful of grown men having to use a "report to moderator" feature because they simply can't "win" their arguments?  I'm not too concerned.  Furthermore, coming from a guy like you who lies about his experience and PM's he sends, it's even less of a concern.

I've never once reported a single poster or post to a moderator lol.  But keep telling yourself you're so important that everyone here has a vendetta against you.

I absolutely PM'd you at your request after you asked the exact same question.  Maybe it was over on Dodd's board after you had been banned at Scoop, and before you had been banned there (lol).  Try checking that accounts PMs.  I can't remember which username I sent it to on which board, it's hard to keep track of all your usernames because you get banned every few months, sorry.

My credentials don't need to be given to a bunch of people that don't care because you think you're some all knowing basketball knowledge because you dunked at a rec center and you were an All North Woods Conference performer your senior year 25 years ago.  But congrats to you, a great honor that you clearly are still very proud of.  As I've stated many a time, I don't know how such a decorated athlete like you would ever waste your time with someone who's never touched a basketball in his life like me.  Crazy, and I'm honored that you take the time to respond.  A true WIAA great, discussing sports with me.  What an honor.

[Floorslapper]

No one reports you because they don't "win."  They report you because of how you utilize the forum.  This is exactly what I mean by lack of self-awareness.  TSmith34 stated it best:

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56103.msg1011332#msg1011332

Gotcha "how you utilize the forum."  That's rich. You don't seem to be able to comprehend or process that it takes two sides to have a debate and a "forum."  You and the same handful of posters go into your childish herd mentality and try to shout me down.  Talk about a bunch of puds.