Ability to attend games in-person next season

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Employers can NOT do whatever they want. There are anti discrimination laws. 

I believe discrimination against the nonvaxed is wrong.

I've been just watching this trainwreck from the sidelines and enjoying it, but you've now stumbled into my line of work.

I'm not sure if you know this or not, but the argument you are trying to make about vaccine passports is called "disparate impact". This argument is that something that is not discriminatory on its face and is not necessarily intended to be discriminatory is in fact discriminatory because it disproportionately and adversely impacts a specific protected class.

The easiest example of a disparate impact case would be a position description requiring a bachelor's degree for a job that has no legitimate reason to require it. It has a disparate impact on people based on race because less Black, Latinx, and Native American people have bachelor's degrees than White people. Another example would be including a weightlifting requirement for a desk job that involves no lifting responsibilities. This could have a disparate impact based on both sex and ability as women are less likely to be able to meet a weightlifting requirement than men and people with certain disabilities may not be able to meet the requirement.

I actually investigate cases like this for a living. Your argument seems to be that an employer requiring an employee to get vaccinated would be discriminatory based on race because less Black people are vaccinated than White people. The numbers I have seen are that 49% of White people are vaccinated and 38% of Black people are vaccinated. I'm sure there are other sources with different numbers, feel free to insert your own from another legitimate source. If the 49/38 numbers are correct, you are going to have a tough time arguing disparate impact. The standard is "significantly higher proportion of proportion of protected class members than non-protected class members" and what that means depends on the specifics of the case. It's not impossible, but the winning cases I have seen have much higher disparities than this.

But let's say that the 11% difference is enough of a disparity. The next element that must be met for a successful claim is a "lack of a substantial legitimate justification". In English, this means that the employer needs to have a reasonable business-related purpose for having this practice/policy. To use my examples from before, it would be discriminatory for a hair salon to require bachelor's degrees for their stylists. It would not be discriminatory for a hospital to require bachelor's degrees from their nurses because that level of education and training is necessary. The other example, a telemarketing gig having a weightlifting requirement would be discriminatory, but a construction worker gig requiring it is absolutely legitimate.

This element is where your claim would fall apart (assuming it didn't fall apart at the first element). Employers have a legitimate interest in protecting their employees and their customers from a pandemic. Any judge in the country would side with the employer on this.

Finally, because I unfortunately think it needs to be spelled out, the federally protected classes in this country are: race/color, sex (which includes pregnancy, gender identity and sexual orientation), national origin, religion, ability status, age (40+), veteran status, and genetic information. It does not include vaccination status.

[Hards Alumni]

Oh boy.

Nope. Just stating that I think you would be classier than that in person, so I politely asked to relax.

No, I would certainly tell you that you're being stupid right to your stupid face if you're acting this stupid.  I think the problem is that no one has ever actually told you.

You made a claim that was easily debunked in three seconds, and then brushed it off as if you knew all along.  This is something stupid people often.  I look forward to doing it more in the coming posts.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I've been just watching this trainwreck from the sidelines and enjoying it, but you've now stumbled into my line of work.

I'm not sure if you know this or not, but the argument you are trying to make about vaccine passports is called "disparate impact". This argument is that something that is not discriminatory on its face and is not necessarily intended to be discriminatory is in fact discriminatory because it disproportionately and adversely impacts a specific protected class.

The easiest example of a disparate impact case would be a position description requiring a bachelor's degree for a job that has no legitimate reason to require it. It has a disparate impact on people based on race because less Black, Latinx, and Native American people have bachelor's degrees than White people. Another example would be including a weightlifting requirement for a desk job that involves no lifting responsibilities. This could have a disparate impact based on both sex and ability as women are less likely to be able to meet a weightlifting requirement than men and people with certain disabilities may not be able to meet the requirement.

I actually investigate cases like this for a living. Your argument seems to be that an employer requiring an employee to get vaccinated would be discriminatory based on race because less Black people are vaccinated than White people. The numbers I have seen are that 49% of White people are vaccinated and 38% of Black people are vaccinated. I'm sure there are other sources with different numbers, feel free to insert your own from another legitimate source. If the 49/38 numbers are correct, you are going to have a tough time arguing disparate impact. The standard is "significantly higher proportion of proportion of protected class members than non-protected class members" and what that means depends on the specifics of the case. It's not impossible, but the winning cases I have seen have much higher disparities than this.

But let's say that the 11% difference is enough of a disparity. The next element that must be met for a successful claim is a "lack of a substantial legitimate justification". In English, this means that the employer needs to have a reasonable business-related reason for having this practice/policy. To use my examples from before, it would be discriminatory for a hair salon to require bachelor's degrees for their stylists. It would not be discriminatory for a hospital to require bachelor's degrees from their nurses because that level of education and training is necessary. The other example, a telemarketing gig having a weightlifting requirement would be discriminatory, but a construction worker gig requiring it is absolutely legitimate.

This element is where your claim would fall apart (assuming it didn't fall apart at the first element). Employers have a legitimate interest in protecting their employees and their customers from a pandemic. Any judge in the country would side with the employer on this.

Finally, because I unfortunately think it needs to be spelled out, the federally protected classes in this country are: race/color, sex (which includes pregnancy, gender identity and sexual orientation), national origin, religion, ability status, age (40+), veteran status, and genetic information. It does not include vaccination status.

You are so elitist with your "knowledge" and "experience."

[moomoo]

No, I would certainly tell you that you're being stupid right to your stupid face if you're acting this stupid.  I think the problem is that no one has ever actually told you.

You made a claim that was easily debunked in three seconds, and then brushed it off as if you knew all along.  This is something stupid people often.  I look forward to doing it more in the coming posts.

My “stupid face”?  Lol.

Ten year olds say that!

Take it easy, Hards. I’m afraid you may get a heart attack. Getting crazy and repeating yourself doesn’t enhance your argument. It actually suggests you are overcompensating for something.

And I still don’t think you would say that to me in person.

[real chili 83]

Hold up guys for a minute.  I need to make more popcorn.

[moomoo]

Brother Pakuni:

You just hit the nail on the head. We require vaccinations for smallpox, mumps, measles, polio and a host of other childhood diseases. Your child doesn't have 'em, they don't go to school. Period. End of discussion.

In Illinois in 1979, we found a school district with no evidence of polio vaccinations for a good part of the high school. When the state found out about it, they went berzerk and threatened to close the high school and, if opened, prohibit the unvaccinated from attending. That's what a state does.

I'll agree with others that the State cannot force at gunpoint people to stop acting stupidly. Your right... your risk. But we can and should put restrictions on what the stupidly unvaccinated can do. Going to basketball games, working in an office, entering a food store or attending school should be starters. I'm an extremist, but I believe that beginning, say, October 1, we should eliminate all masking and distancing requirements and allow health insurance providers to exclude payment for treatment of Covid-19, IF YOU ARE UNVACCINATED!

I'm amazed at how stupid even smart people can be. My wife and I have a friend who has a law degree and worked for several very high powered organizations. Yet, she refuses to be vaccinated. I just don't get it. Time to stop thinking raw idiocy and GET VACCINATED!

There is no reason why anyone older than 12 years should be unvaccinated. The vaccine is widely available. If you're poor, well, it's free. If you can't travel; chances are the providers will come to you. Even in Florida, you can be vaccinated and then buy your guns at Walmart!

I agree.

People should get vaccinated.

But those who choose not to should NOT be assumed to be Covid positive and they should NOT be discriminated against and they should not be FORCED to take the vaccine.

My last post on the topic.

Good luck everyone. Even FBM, Brew and Hards.

[TallTitan34]

Just out of curiosity, since you are basically saying everyone is responsible for their own decisions on how to stay safe and we can't mandate any controls... do you believe smoking on an airplane should be allowed?  Even if second hand smoke is a leading cause of cancer and the non-smoker has no control on whether the other person smokes or not.    What about drunk driving?  I mean, watch out for yourself right?  It's my choice to put myself in danger by driving while under the influence... if you don't like that, stay off the roads, right? 

I'd like to see moomoo's response to this.

[Hards Alumni]

I agree.

People should get vaccinated.

But those who choose not to should NOT be assumed to be Covid positive and they should NOT be discriminated against and they should not be FORCED to take the vaccine.

My last post on the topic.

Good luck everyone. Even FBM, Brew and Hards.

Yeah, you should have probably dipped out a couple of posts ago. 

[moomoo]

Yeah, you should have probably dipped out a couple of posts ago.

And miss your posts acting like a child who got his ice cream taken away, because he had no real answers to a different perspective?

No way.

Friendly advice Hards: people with opposing opinions, just like people who are not vaccinated, are not the enemy.  When you treat them as such, you come across like an unhinged lunatic tyrant who should be no where near public health decisions. 

When you realize this, you will be happier and make better assessments.

Good luck.

[cheebs09]

I agree.

People should get vaccinated.

But those who choose not to should NOT be assumed to be Covid positive and they should NOT be discriminated against and they should not be FORCED to take the vaccine.

My last post on the topic.

Good luck everyone. Even FBM, Brew and Hards.

This is the flaw in thinking. The unvaccinated should be viewed as having the virus because we don’t always know. Asymptomatic spread is what makes this so dangerous.

So why do those who don’t take the easy precaution of being vaccinated get to run the show? Whether they think it or not, they are a risk to others.

[Viper]

Are schools dictatorial for requiring kids have vaccinations?

private school? No. I think it’s bs, but no.
And the kid can choose to go to school elsewhere.

[GOO]

When I have surgery in a hospital, I expect to be treated by vaccinated people.  With the 10+ people that will in in and out of the room each day (probably a lot more; most of whom will not adequately wash or sanitize their hands between clients unless you are at one of the few top hospitals); half dozen people breathing on you during surgery, etc... I would sure expect the providers to be vaccinated while working with people who's immune systems are down. To do otherwise borders on malfeasance. 

Does moomoo want a hospital that has a "you don't need to be vaccinated here to work" policy?  Same with a nursing home where moomoo would put a parent?

The free market is likely to favor hospital systems with a "employees must be vaccinated policy" and thus the employers are likely to require vaccinations of employees. 

I'd expect a lot of employers that want to attract highly successful highly educated people into a corporate in person meetings to have a must vax policy to attract the best and brightest.  Capitalism will dictate that these types of places have a must vax policy. As more and more people get vaccinated, more and more businesses will find it to their advantage to demand vaccinations as a condition of employment.

[RJax55]

And miss your posts acting like a child who got his ice cream taken away, because he had no real answers to a different perspective?

No way.

Friendly advice Hards: people with opposing opinions, just like people who are not vaccinated, are not the enemy.  When you treat them as such, you come across like an unhinged lunatic tyrant who should be no where near public health decisions. 

When you realize this, you will be happier and make better assessments.

Good luck.

People that are unvaccinated are very much the enemy. I have HAD it. And, frankly those that apologize or make excuses for them are the same.

[Viper]

Employers can and do require vaccinations for their employees if they choose.  Should I name some of these businesses for you, or would you like to keep tripping over your dick?

are you serious?  I doubt you’d opine like this in person. What I find interesting is that many on this board would appear to be pro-choice on abortion. Just a gut on my part as we’ve certainly hammered away on a lot of stuff away from hoops! However, almost no one, it would appear, is pro-choice on the Covid vaccine. Kill a kid? Your call. Covid vaccine. You must...you stupid person!! Anyway, you think we’ll beat UW again this year?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

There are substantial differences between abortion and vaccination.  Pretty much everyone can figure that out.  Can you?

[GOO]

are you serious?  I doubt you’d opine like this in person. What I find interesting is that many on this board would appear to be pro-choice on abortion. Just a gut on my part as we’ve certainly hammered away on a lot of stuff away from hoops! However, almost no one, it would appear, is pro-choice on the Covid vaccine. Kill a kid? Your call. Covid vaccine. You must...you stupid person!! Anyway, you think we’ll beat UW again this year?

If we are vaccinated and MU has mandatory vaccination to attend games and the university, and UW does not, I like our odds a bit better versus UW.  How's that for an answer?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

You are so elitist with your "knowledge" and "experience."

As Asimov said, "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" has long been a feature of American political and cultural life. It's just having a particularly strong renaissance is certain places.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

People that are unvaccinated are very much the enemy. I have HAD it. And, frankly those that apologize or make excuses for them are the same.

^This.

[SaveOD238]

Finally, because I unfortunately think it needs to be spelled out, the federally protected classes in this country are: race/color, sex (which includes pregnancy, gender identity and sexual orientation), national origin, religion, ability status, age (40+), veteran status, and genetic information. It does not include vaccination status.

Also, political affiliation is not a protected class.

[Galway Eagle]

are you serious?  I doubt you’d opine like this in person. What I find interesting is that many on this board would appear to be pro-choice on abortion. Just a gut on my part as we’ve certainly hammered away on a lot of stuff away from hoops! However, almost no one, it would appear, is pro-choice on the Covid vaccine. Kill a kid? Your call. Covid vaccine. You must...you stupid person!! Anyway, you think we’ll beat UW again this year?

So are you saying you're pro choice now? I mean if you make that comparison, then it works both ways amigo.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

However, almost no one, it would appear, is pro-choice on the Covid vaccine. Kill a kid? Your call. Covid vaccine. You must...you stupid person!!

I'm going to assume that this was an attempt to get the thread locked and not an actual argument.

[Billy Hoyle]

Employers can NOT do whatever they want. There are anti discrimination laws. 

I believe discrimination against the nonvaxed is wrong. I don’t believe we should assume and treat all of them like a walking death trap.  These are people who are making a choice that I need to respect, even if I disagree with it, which I do.

And how do the words virtue signaling equate to those who fought for our freedoms?  There is no comparison in my book. None. Zero. If I gave that impression, it was not my intention.

so does the Mayor of very liberal Boston. Well, discrimination against certain unvaccinated:

https://nypost.com/2021/08/04/boston-mayor-compares-nycs-vaccine-mandate-to-slavery/

“During slavery, post-slavery, as recent as, you know, what the immigrant population has to go through here, we’ve heard Trump with the birth certificate nonsense,” Janey told WCVB. “Here, we want to make sure that we are not doing anything that would further create a barrier for residents of Boston or disproportionally impact BIPOC communities.”

At least she didn't use "Latinix."

[war1980rior]

Hold up guys for a minute.  I need to make more popcorn.

Hey Chili - Can you grab one for me?

[moomoo]

People that are unvaccinated are very much the enemy. I have HAD it. And, frankly those that apologize or make excuses for them are the same.

Rjax

Sorry, I need some clarification here.

You just said that unvaccinated people, regardless if they have Covid or not, are your enemy?

Wow.

You just cemented, in one post, the exact fear in many people.

They are your enemy.

Scary stuff.

[Pakuni]

so does the Mayor of very liberal Boston. Well, discrimination against certain unvaccinated:

https://nypost.com/2021/08/04/boston-mayor-compares-nycs-vaccine-mandate-to-slavery/

“During slavery, post-slavery, as recent as, you know, what the immigrant population has to go through here, we’ve heard Trump with the birth certificate nonsense,” Janey told WCVB. “Here, we want to make sure that we are not doing anything that would further create a barrier for residents of Boston or disproportionally impact BIPOC communities.”

At least she didn't use "Latinix."

And here's why rational people don't read the New York Post. Nothing in that comment compared vaccine mandates to slavery. That is what can I only assume, given that it's a Murdoch entity, an intentional misinterpretation of her comment.