Marquette Arts and Sciences dean search F-up

[MUeagle05]

Simply answer how she will promote homosexuality by becoming Dean of A&S. 

Openly discussing and publishing articles portraying homosexual sex in a positive manner is promoting homosexuality.  I didn't think it was that confusing . . .

[GGGG]

No one is afraid of anything.  Why do you keep asking that?  The arguments I read are that MU has the right to enforce the teachings of the church that it was founded on.  Maybe you don't understand how religion works.  Religions have a set of rules (beliefs, codes, whatever) that you are supposed to live by.  If you don't adhere to those rules, what's the point?  It works the same for Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Lutherans, Baptists, Mormons, etc.  

Marquette is a *university* first - where different ideas are discussed and debated.  It's not an extention of your parish's CCD class.

[shiloh26]

So what are you suggesting, that they should have gone ahead with a bad idea because they realized it was a bad idea late in the process?

I'm suggesting that none of this makes any sense.  With hiring as important as this, she was heavily scrutinized and highly researched.  You're telling me that they confident enough with her one day to offer her the freaking Dean-ship, and the next day realize that she is unqualified?  That they found new publications proving she is against Catholic teaching?  Please, they already knew she was against the letter of Catholic teachings, and were prepared to hire.  What exactly changed their minds?  

You also seem pretty confident that this would be a bad hire.  Echoing the other people here, I'd like an explanation of why hiring a lesbian dean who has written about her lesbian experience, which (gasp) has probably been at odds with the Church would be a bad hire?  Or at least so bad that is was okay one day, but not okay the next?  

[MUfan12]

Simply answer how she will promote homosexuality by becoming Dean of A&S.  

By giving her that position, couldn't it be said that Marquette is endorsing her positions and previous work? Isn't that a large part of why you hire someone, based on their work history? Just a thought.

It's not about the promotion of homosexuality. It's about what MU appears to be promoting.

And I know you weren't accusing me of anything. I was just pointing out how weak it was. But I'll get over myself anyway.

[NavinRJohnson]

That anyone who doesn't live by that doctrine shouldn't be able to teach or work at MU?

Nope, but I believe it is perfectly reasonable for MU to conclude that such a person who not only doesn't live by catholic doctrine, but seemingly goes rather aggressively in the other direction may not be appropriate for a position as and administrator, and Dean of the largest college within the University.

[MUfan12]

Just an FYI- McAdams looks deeper into her scholarly background, and compares a bit to the other two candidates. Take it for what it's worth.

http://mu-warrior.blogspot.com/2010/05/rejected-lesbian-dean-candidate_07.html

[LA]

By giving her that position, couldn't it be said that Marquette is endorsing her positions and previous work? Isn't that a large part of why you hire someone, based on their work history? Just a thought.

No you would hire someone based on their ability to formulate an argument and intelligently support their position. If people only hired who they agreed with half of our faculty would not be employed.

[shiloh26]

By giving her that position, couldn't it be said that Marquette is endorsing her positions and previous work? Isn't that why you hire someone, based on their work history? Just a thought.

And I know you weren't accusing me of anything. I was just pointing out how weak it was. But I'll get over myself anyway.

Lots of professors at Marquette are at odds with Catholic teaching: other gays and lesbians, proponents of stem cell research, and proponents of the death penalty alike.  Does that mean the University as a Catholic entity endorses their positions?  No, it means they are committed to being a decent educational institution with varying positions on important topics.  

[NavinRJohnson]

Echoing the other people here, I'd like an explanation of why hiring a lesbian dean who has written about her lesbian experience, which (gasp) has probably been at odds with the Church would be a bad hire?   

Well, I guess you said it all right there... You don't consider the Catholic aspect of this situation important. That's your choice, but some people do. MU is a Catholic institution, and whether you or others care about that or not, it isn't going to change, and it is going to be a consideration in everything they do. If you don't like it, tough. Its not your decision.

[MUfan12]

Deans and professors are two completely different entities. LA and shiloh, you are completely meshing the two together.

If they hired her as a sociology professor no one would have batted an eye.

[Hards Alumni]

No one is afraid of anything.  Why do you keep asking that?  The arguments I read are that MU has the right to enforce the teachings of the church that it was founded on.  Maybe you don't understand how religion works.  Religions have a set of rules (beliefs, codes, whatever) that you are supposed to live by.  If you don't adhere to those rules, what's the point?  It works the same for Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Lutherans, Baptists, Mormons, etc.  

And you seriously need to stop with the straw men and red herrring arguments.  Squelching free thought is not a Catholic value and no one thinks O'Brien is going to stand in Gesu and hypnotize people into turning gay.  You make it hard for people to take you seriously . . .

I was making a point using hyperbole.  I apologize if I am making it too difficult to understand.  But, If you would simply answer the questions, then I wouldn't need to theorize what you are thinking.  But rather than answering the question, you pull the 'straw man' and 'red herring' card, and fail to address the questions.

1. What do published works regarding homosexuality have to do with her ability to do her job as Dean of A&S?

2. Why does it matter that she has published works regarding homosexuality?

3. Do the published works directly state her opposition to Catholic doctorine?

I fully understand religion.  Do you understand the difference between church, religion and education?

[MUeagle05]

Marquette is a *university* first - where different ideas are discussed and debated.  It's not an extention of your parish's CCD class.

Actually Marquette is a Catholic university.  Note which word comes first.  From the MU website:
http://www.marquette.edu/about/jesuit.shtml

 And just because it is a Catholic university doesn't mean ideas can't be discussed and debated.  It's the endorsement and promotion that becomes a problem . . .

[GGGG]

Just an FYI- McAdams looks deeper into her scholarly background, and compares a bit to the other two candidates. Take it for what it's worth.

http://mu-warrior.blogspot.com/2010/05/rejected-lesbian-dean-candidate_07.html

McAdams hits on some very good points but really undermines his arguments with his snarky comments.  For instance, this is a valid argument:

"Oh, she has published a lot of articles. But none is in a top-level or even a mid-level sociology journal. She has authored and coauthored a lot of books, but all but one are simply edited volumes where she and a coauthor put together essays collected from other scholars."


However, he undermines it with this kind of stuff:

"We have downloaded and put online three articles of hers, pretty much at random. (We lack the stomach to extensively examine this kind of literature.)"

He needs to simply state his case and let the facts do the talking.  His comments frankly make him come off as, at best, disrespectful.

[GGGG]

Actually Marquette is a Catholic university.  Note which word comes first.  From the MU website:
http://www.marquette.edu/about/jesuit.shtml

 And just because it is a Catholic university doesn't mean ideas can't be discussed and debated.  It's the endorsement and promotion that becomes a problem . . .

Because "University Catholic" is gramatically incorrect.

And hiring a deal that's a lesbian isn't promoting anything.

[LA]

Exactly MUfan so shouldn't we be looking at her history as chair of her department and her getting promoted at a consitent rate throughout her career? If you disagree with her points as a professor what does that have to do with her ability to be an administrator?

[Hards Alumni]

Actually Marquette is a Catholic university.  Note which word comes first.  From the MU website:
http://www.marquette.edu/about/jesuit.shtml

 And just because it is a Catholic university doesn't mean ideas can't be discussed and debated.  It's the endorsement and promotion that becomes a problem . . .

Who exactly should debate them?  Everyone from one side of the argument?

I still don't see how she would be harmful as a Dean, but not harmful as a member of the faculty.

Because she is more of a public figure?  This is a serious question.

[MUfan12]

Exactly MUfan so shouldn't we be looking at her history as chair of her department and her getting promoted at a consitent rate throughout her career? If you disagree with her points as a professor what does that have to do with her ability to be an administrator?

That's great she was a department chair and has been promoted. You can't look at that stuff and gloss over the rest, though.

But by hiring her as a dean, on a certain level that's an endorsement of her scholarly work. A good chunk of that work goes against a central teaching of the church. That's the precedent that MU (or someone intimately tied to MU) didn't want to set.

[shiloh26]

That's great she was a department chair and has been promoted. You can't look at that stuff and gloss over the rest, though.

But by hiring her as a dean, on a certain level that's an endorsement of her scholarly work. A good chunk of that work goes against a central teaching of the church. That's the precedent that MU (or someone intimately tied to MU) didn't want to set.

I still don't understand how hiring her as a dean is an endorsement of her scholarly work but that hiring her as a professor wouldn't be such an endorsement?  Or less of an endorsement?  The whole point is that the University is always hiring people who are against central teachings of the church.  All MU professors and deans represent the University.  Is it just 'too much' to hire her as dean, but it wouldn't be as a professor?

[MUfan12]

I still don't understand how hiring her as a dean is an endorsement of her scholarly work but that hiring her as a professor wouldn't be such an endorsement?  Or less of an endorsement?

A much, much less public endorsement.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sounds like another classic example of hiring not the best candidate, but hiring to make some kind of impression or to make them feel better about themselves. 

Her sexual orientation should not be a reason NOT to hire someone.  Yet, at the same time, her orientation should not be the reason TO hire her either.  Is she the best candidate or not?  Forget all the other nonsense.  Diversity has such a limited definition for some people.  It seems to be defined by race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender....when diversity should be based on life experience, thought process, etc. 

Hire the best damn candidate. 

[MUeagle05]

I was making a point using hyperbole.  I apologize if I am making it too difficult to understand.  But, If you would simply answer the questions, then I wouldn't need to theorize what you are thinking.  But rather than answering the question, you pull the 'straw man' and 'red herring' card, and fail to address the questions.

1. What do published works regarding homosexuality have to do with her ability to do her job as Dean of A&S?  They don't at a secular university.  At a Catholic university it interferes with providing a Catholic, Jesuit education, which is the mission of the university.

2. Why does it matter that she has published works regarding homosexuality?  It demonstrates that her beliefs are not consistent with Catholic teaching and that she has no intention of providing a Catholic education to the students

3. Do the published works directly state her opposition to Catholic doctorine?  I highly doubt they directly state "I oppose the Catholic doctrine."  The ideas she is promoting and supporting are in opposition to Catholic doctrine.

I fully understand religion.  Do you understand the difference between church, religion and education? I do.  You apparently don't understand the concept or purpose of a religious education or Catholic school.

[ChicosBailBonds]

What exactly is the 'gay adgenda'?

Just wondering?  Is it equal treatment?

THOSE BASTARDS!

Define equal treatment? 

[MUeagle05]

Who exactly should debate them?  Everyone from one side of the argument?  You can debate a point of view without condoning or endorsing it.

I still don't see how she would be harmful as a Dean, but not harmful as a member of the faculty.  Who is making that distinction?  Not me.

Because she is more of a public figure?  This is a serious question.

[ChicosBailBonds]

My father in law is a history professor and was on the search committee. To suggest that the committee didn't do sufficient research on the candidates is false. Both Wild and Pauly had everything they needed on both candidates, both met and interviewed O'Brien and liked her.

Wild then just recently called them together to go off on them for recommending someone so against the universities teachings. The blame lies completely on Father Wild and I'm guessing it was pressure from donors that led to his change of heart. She was 100% qualified and not hired because she is an open lesbian. That is simply not right.

How is she 100% qualified?

[shiloh26]

A much, much less public endorsement.

I don't think you meant to say that... certainly, as a Catholic institution, MU doesn't 'endorse' the positions of any professors or deans or students or janitors that are contrary to the Catholic teaching.  If you're saying its a question of degree, then you're saying that in hiring, MU endorses the positions of deviant professors, but not of deviant deans... which simply makes no sense.  

But of course, that is exactly my point, there is no 'endorsement' issue, the fact is that the University hires people all the time who are contrary to the Church.  Which is why this decision makes no sense.