As Easter Nears

[4everwarriors]

The deity in Milwaukee, aka Tom Crean, may rise again. Pray the Easter bunny  brings him a basket of recruits (big ones, I hope), assistant coaches who stay, players who stay, offensive and defensive game-time adjustments, and the ability to win in March. No doubt, it would be unbelievable.

As for ozmetal71, my MU brother, we old-time crap our Depends McGuire groupies are not unrealistic in our expectations. We simply won't settle for mediocrity. We read through the BS and want more substance and less rhetoric. We've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. Believe me, the good is much better than the other two. I still think the good can and will return. If that's with Crean as the coach, fine, if not, that's fine with me also. I'm down and cool with all of it.

[ecompt]

I understand your point, 4ever, I too am one of the McGuire groupies who was there when the Warrios did not lose a home game in my four-year stay. I do disagree with your use of the word "mediocrity." I don't think going 20-12 in our first two years of the Big East is mediocre. I DO think that anyone who expects a return to the glory days is delusional. No Catholic school will ever put together the records Al did in the 1970s. Georgetown did for awhile in the 1980s but had to throw its admissions test out the window to get Ewing and Michael Graham into school. Since then, name one Catholic school that has acheived any long-term success. Crean is no deity; my wife tells me I'm often screaming at the TV saying he should do this or that. But I don't think anyone can sell the program better than he can.

[MUCam]

"But I don't think anyone can sell the program better than he can."

- This may be the understatement of the year. What Crean has done with regards to program visibility is nothing short of a miracle. Not to long ago, this program was a "has been." A catholic school with history dating to a time when things were different. It was nothing more than a footnote in a Sports Almanac. Crean has reversed that trend. It is a shame, but I don't think I have ever seen 4everwarriors give Crean credit for that. Anyone who thinks a return to glory days would take anything less than 10 years is delusional. We are hovering on the brink in eight years.

Are there things Crean can improve on? Absolutely. Do those things warrant the hostility cast on this board from 4everwarriors and a few select others? Not in the least. Can we again become a powerhouse in the mold of a Duke or MSU or Arizona? Yes, though it will take a lot of hard work and some luck. Are we on our way there? Let's just say that ten years ago, the prior answer would have been a resounding "no." I remember not too long ago, when the best thing we had going for us was the fact that Wardle was among the nation's leaders in points per game. My, how far we have come under Crean.

Crean has not earned a life's pass. But he has earned at least some respect and credit. Unfortunately, 4everwarriors doesn't seem ready to grant that. Oh, well...as they say, to each their own.

It is comforting, however, that when you look at the "How big a loss would a Crean depature be?" poll, it shows that over 60% of those polled would consider a departure some sort of a loss. Less than 10% feel we could do better without Crean, with approximately a mere three percent being so extreme and bull-headed to actually believe Crean must leave now. It is good to see that minority is just that; a minority.

[Harrison]

While I do not belive Crean is a "terrible" coach, I must say he is just a hair better than mediocre.  His last two teams have lost 23 games.  He has average over double digit losses since he has been at MU.  Now I do realize he has been to the NCAA .500 of the time but is that really any better than mediocre?  I think a good team losses no more that 6-7-8 games in a year and we are losing 11-12.  One could argue if MU were not able to have gotten into the Pre-season tourneys the last two years and played a maximum schedule we would have been hard pressed to win 20 games or get an NCAA bid.  
Is Crean "terrible".  No.  But I think some of the older fans hold a coach to a higher standard than those in their 20's or early thirties who knew nothing but the end of Deane and Crean's first few years and now worship Crean.  
His recruiting is also mediocre.  People like to compare his recruiting to that of Deane.  But Deane got fired.  His recruiting needs to compared to the top 1/3rd of the Big EAst.  He has some decent signings the last 3 years but unfortunately 1/2 of the roster does not belong at MU and were collosall mistakes.  Additionally, we have had our shorts handed to us the last two years in recruiting.  Syrcause, Pitt, Uconn, Louisville, and georgetown's recruiting dwarfs ours in a big big way.  
For Crean to move this program to the next level his recruitng needs to improve big time.  Also, his offense is so methodical we have problems scoring, hard to beat more talented teams with the ball mvoing as slowly as it does for us.  The less talented team needs better ball movement and player movement to score effectively against a more talented team.  Unfortunately we do very little of either.  

[4everwarriors]

your point about Catholic schools is valid. Though, I'd be more inclined to group schools as either having football producing revenue or not. Nonetheless, MU, ND, BC, and Georgetown have storied basketball traditions and I could see any of these schools creating today's version of a dynasty.

Until TC brings in a bonafide bigman, I'm not convinced he's the best at selling the program.

[ecompt]

Funny how you mention how UConn and Pitt have dwarfed us recruiting-wise. The last two years we are 5-2 against those schools. TC must be doing something right.

[Harrison]

Well that is good for you Pitt Was top 10 the last 2 years.  Uconn was #1 most of last yer and has been top 10 the last 10-15 years.  Again good for you.  Also Villanova has beaten us up on the recruiting trail.
Stick to your figures.  Our recruiting has been poor in relation to the teams we need to beat.  Again, I said I beleive Crean was amediocre to slightly above average coach.  Soory that upsets you.  Compare him to the other BE coaches and he is in the middle somewhere.  If you love the guy adn that upsets you than I am sorry, just look at the numbers.

[Marquette84]

Well that is good for you Pitt Was top 10 the last 2 years. 

Hmmm.  We split with Pitt last season and won 2 of 3 this season.

Uconn was #1 most of last yer and has been top 10 the last 10-15 years.  Again good for you. 

We beat UConn last season.  And this season as well.


I'm not sure where you're going with this--

Also Villanova has beaten us up on the recruiting trail.

We beat Villanova this year.

Stick to your figures.  Our recruiting has been poor in relation to the teams we need to beat. 

First, the teams we NEED to beat are the ones behind us in the standings.  We don't lose any consideration in the polls for losing at Georgetown--but we would had we lost to Seton Hall.

That aside, we actually are beating the teams you seem to think are the ones we need to beat.

Again, I said I beleive Crean was amediocre to slightly above average coach.  Soory that upsets you.  Compare him to the other BE coaches and he is in the middle somewhere.  

Really?  So, if crean is "mediocre" becasue he's 3-2 against Pitt, what does that make Dixon?  If Crean is mediocre because he's 1-1 against Villanova, what does that make Jay Wright?  If mediocre Crean is 2-0 vs Jim Calhoun, what does that make Calhoun?  If mediocre Crean is 2-1 vs. Notre Dame, what does that make Mike Brey?  If Crean is .500 vs. Pitino, what does that make Pitino.

[ecompt]

Harrison, where in my post did I indicate that I was upset? You mention Pitt and UConn; the figures show we are 5-2 against them the past two years. If we are getting beat so badly on the recruiting trail, how are we able to stay competitive with these guys? And if Crean is as bad as you say he is, why is his name mentioned every time a big-name school needs a coach? Is he Jim Boeheim? No, but look at Boeheim's record his first eight years at Syracuse. Would you rather have Calhoun (a bully and a jerk to the media) or sleazy Pitino at MU? Jay Wright or Thompson III? Maybe, but I don't think there are too many people who think either is markedly better than Crean. Jamie Dixon? You want him? I don't. Wainwright? Please. Beilein, I think, is a terrific coach. The fact is, we're a small private school playing with the big boys, and we've been more than competitive.   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

"But I don't think anyone can sell the program better than he can."

- This may be the understatement of the year. What Crean has done with regards to program visibility is nothing short of a miracle. Not to long ago, this program was a "has been." A catholic school with history dating to a time when things were different. It was nothing more than a footnote in a Sports Almanac. Crean has reversed that trend. It is a shame, but I don't think I have ever seen 4everwarriors give Crean credit for that. Anyone who thinks a return to glory days would take anything less than 10 years is delusional. We are hovering on the brink in eight years.

Are there things Crean can improve on? Absolutely. Do those things warrant the hostility cast on this board from 4everwarriors and a few select others? Not in the least. Can we again become a powerhouse in the mold of a Duke or MSU or Arizona? Yes, though it will take a lot of hard work and some luck. Are we on our way there? Let's just say that ten years ago, the prior answer would have been a resounding "no." I remember not too long ago, when the best thing we had going for us was the fact that Wardle was among the nation's leaders in points per game. My, how far we have come under Crean.

Crean has not earned a life's pass. But he has earned at least some respect and credit. Unfortunately, 4everwarriors doesn't seem ready to grant that. Oh, well...as they say, to each their own.

It is comforting, however, that when you look at the "How big a loss would a Crean depature be?" poll, it shows that over 60% of those polled would consider a departure some sort of a loss. Less than 10% feel we could do better without Crean, with approximately a mere three percent being so extreme and bull-headed to actually believe Crean must leave now. It is good to see that minority is just that; a minority.

Well written and thought out.

I agree with everything you said.

Crean is not God, but he has launched MU onto the national stage and derserves a ton of credit for that. No coach in the past 30 yrs was able to do that.

I hope people have enough perspective and patience to enjoy what is really going on at MU, because we are all witnesses to something special.

[ozmetal71]

I don't worship Crean.  I think his offensive system has been flawed and inflexible at times, and his recruiting his been uneven.

Now, uneven recruiting is not mediocre.  Deane was a mediocre recruiter, and the steadily declining talent level is what really cost him his job, because it was clear that if he stayed, MU would regress into a mid-major caliber program.  Crean has missed on some players, and it has been frustrating that we, until this year, have missed on quality bigs.  However, I don't think that gettting players like Wade, Diener, Mason, Merritt, Novak, DJ, Matthews, Mbwake, Christopherson, McNeal, etc. can possibly be called mediocre.  Show me where Deane, Majerus, Dukiet, got those players.

Plus, as has been stated on this and other boards, Crean has had to recruit against a powerful UW program, and Illinois as well.  For most of the past thirty years, UW was a joke, and U of I was inconsistent.  For all of the deserved accolades of O'Neill, I doubt he would've gotten those Wisconsin players if he had to go against a Bo Ryan led Badger program.

Crean's game management skills have been uneven, but he is still a fairly-young coach who is learning along the way.  People forget that Wooden didn't win a single NCAA game in his first eleven years coaching.

That being said, I really feel that there is a portion of the MU fan-base who has over-inflated expectations of the program.  One has to look at the post-McGuire era in its entirety and then judge Crean.  When was the last time that MU went to the NCAA four times in six years?  Or the Final Four before 2003?

Crean has had to re-build a program largely from scratch.  You mean to tell me that a lineup of Wardle, Cliff, Polonowski, Henry, and Nmamaka could contend?  Crean was left with, the exception of Henry and Wardle, a largely empty cupboard of talent.  Marquette was a has-been program with no national exposure, no facilities, and no real draw for recruits.  Crean has changed that, and while he has made mistakes, he has brought the talent level at Marquette to a quality that it hasn't been in twenty years.

If you think that Crean's record is mediocre, than what exactly do you expect from Marquette basketball in 2007.  I think that a Final Four appearance, increased revenue, attendance, recruiting talent, and contention in the Big East and multiple tournament appearances is better than mediocre for a Catholic, city, non-football school.  Judge Marquette against fellow Catholic universities and we stack up really well in basketball. 

Finally, for those who are constantly yapping about the three first-round exits, how many times did Marquette advance to the Sweet Sixteen since 1977 prior to the 2003 FF run?  Exactly once, in 1994.  How many times did MU even make it out of the first round?  Maybe three times?

Oh wait, that was all Wade, because he had triple-doubles against Holy Cross and Missouri....ummmmm......

Billy Donovan had three early-round exits in a row before his last two seasons.  I wonder if the Florida fans were calling for him to be fired and saying that the Final game appearance before that meant nothing.

I'll take Crean's "mediocrity" any day.  I'll be enjoying it with 18,000 fans at the Bradley Center, and enjoy watching it on ESPN ten times a season.

[OneMadWarrior]

I'd really like to see Crean branch out and learn things like the secondary break from Roy Williams, and talk to other coaches who run a  little more. With the kind of guards they have I would think a hard pressing running team system would do wonders for Marquette

[Wade for President]

I don't worship Crean.  I think his offensive system has been flawed and inflexible at times, and his recruiting his been uneven.

Now, uneven recruiting is not mediocre.  Deane was a mediocre recruiter, and the steadily declining talent level is what really cost him his job, because it was clear that if he stayed, MU would regress into a mid-major caliber program.  Crean has missed on some players, and it has been frustrating that we, until this year, have missed on quality bigs.  However, I don't think that gettting players like Wade, Diener, Mason, Merritt, Novak, DJ, Matthews, Mbwake, Christopherson, McNeal, etc. can possibly be called mediocre.  Show me where Deane, Majerus, Dukiet, got those players.

Plus, as has been stated on this and other boards, Crean has had to recruit against a powerful UW program, and Illinois as well.  For most of the past thirty years, UW was a joke, and U of I was inconsistent.  For all of the deserved accolades of O'Neill, I doubt he would've gotten those Wisconsin players if he had to go against a Bo Ryan led Badger program.

Crean's game management skills have been uneven, but he is still a fairly-young coach who is learning along the way.  People forget that Wooden didn't win a single NCAA game in his first eleven years coaching.

That being said, I really feel that there is a portion of the MU fan-base who has over-inflated expectations of the program.  One has to look at the post-McGuire era in its entirety and then judge Crean.  When was the last time that MU went to the NCAA four times in six years?  Or the Final Four before 2003?

Crean has had to re-build a program largely from scratch.  You mean to tell me that a lineup of Wardle, Cliff, Polonowski, Henry, and Nmamaka could contend?  Crean was left with, the exception of Henry and Wardle, a largely empty cupboard of talent.  Marquette was a has-been program with no national exposure, no facilities, and no real draw for recruits.  Crean has changed that, and while he has made mistakes, he has brought the talent level at Marquette to a quality that it hasn't been in twenty years.

If you think that Crean's record is mediocre, than what exactly do you expect from Marquette basketball in 2007.  I think that a Final Four appearance, increased revenue, attendance, recruiting talent, and contention in the Big East and multiple tournament appearances is better than mediocre for a Catholic, city, non-football school.  Judge Marquette against fellow Catholic universities and we stack up really well in basketball. 

Finally, for those who are constantly yapping about the three first-round exits, how many times did Marquette advance to the Sweet Sixteen since 1977 prior to the 2003 FF run?  Exactly once, in 1994.  How many times did MU even make it out of the first round?  Maybe three times?

Oh wait, that was all Wade, because he had triple-doubles against Holy Cross and Missouri....ummmmm......

Billy Donovan had three early-round exits in a row before his last two seasons.  I wonder if the Florida fans were calling for him to be fired and saying that the Final game appearance before that meant nothing.

I'll take Crean's "mediocrity" any day.  I'll be enjoying it with 18,000 fans at the Bradley Center, and enjoy watching it on ESPN ten times a season.

You can't see me ozmetal71...but I'm standing and applauding at my computer.

[ozmetal71]

Thanks.  Crean's not perfect, but he's done a great job, and Marquette needs to keep him around to continue the development of the program.

[MonsterWebWarrior]

Oz, I echo WadeforPresident.  Great post.  I admit I was starting to doubt after the 2005 seasoon, but these last 2 years have been almost just as much fun as Wade's two years, and then I remembered why I liked TC so much during Wade's years.  He is the right guy for our university.  He truly likes it here, he's a good person, tough and demanding behind closed doors, but can schmooze with the alum and the media with flying colors, he recruits good kids (save for someone like, oh Ammo?), doesn't have any violations records, he markets the Marquette name as well as anyone, has established a program, and just understands the university and what it represents, and handles himself likewise.  When you say Marquette, people know what you're talking about now (and a big reason why I think admissions are through the roof now).  People know who we are now because of TC gets our name out there.  No other coach gets us ESPN College Gameday.  That is one day I will never forget, even more so than some of our tourney wins.  I'm glad to have him and I hope we have him for a long time.

[77ncaachamps]

"But I don't think anyone can sell the program better than he can."

- This may be the understatement of the year. What Crean has done with regards to program visibility is nothing short of a miracle. Not to long ago, this program was a "has been." A catholic school with history dating to a time when things were different. It was nothing more than a footnote in a Sports Almanac. Crean has reversed that trend. It is a shame, but I don't think I have ever seen 4everwarriors give Crean credit for that. Anyone who thinks a return to glory days would take anything less than 10 years is delusional. We are hovering on the brink in eight years.

Are there things Crean can improve on? Absolutely. Do those things warrant the hostility cast on this board from 4everwarriors and a few select others? Not in the least. Can we again become a powerhouse in the mold of a Duke or MSU or Arizona? Yes, though it will take a lot of hard work and some luck. Are we on our way there? Let's just say that ten years ago, the prior answer would have been a resounding "no." I remember not too long ago, when the best thing we had going for us was the fact that Wardle was among the nation's leaders in points per game. My, how far we have come under Crean.

But I think even Crean knows that failure to get far in the tourney will eventually erode the magical aura around him. The Final Four was great, but it was early in his career and many will point to Wade more than Crean for that year's success.

Crean needs to go farther in the tourney to really show how much progress he's made at MU. We know he's done an awesome job, BUT the record (only NCAA wins were during the Final Four season) speaks volumes.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I have a question for you guys that throw out the term "mediocrity"


How did you guys act toward Al his first 5 years?  Did you burn something in Hank's front yard because he had a TON of talent and basically did nothing in the NCAAs.

Majerus...Dukiet....KO....Deane.....

You guys must have been MISERABLE SOB's for 26 years until we went back to the Final Four.  Did any of your dogs survive or where they all kicked to death?

Are you guys really saying this program is "mediocre" right now....are you really buying the B.S. you're shoveling?   Define mediocre for me because I have apparently lost the meaning of it.  It's obvious mediocre isn't "average" because the average NCAA DI team doesn't make the NCAA tournament.  That's good, because I want well above average.

But then, mediocre's meaning means "rather poor or inferior; ordinary" according to the dictionary....so you guys have a real interesting way of re-defining words now.  Is making the tournament 4 times in 6 years and going to the Final Four "ordinary"?  Is it "inferior"?  Is it "rather poor"?

 

[tonyreeder]

this was such a nice thread until you entered it Chicos.  Give and take on both sides of the issue. Well thought out points.   Then you throw out "burning crosses" and  "miserable SOB's."    Why do you have to take the comments that are the least bit critical of the program and blow it way out of proportion.  So annoying.
Happy Easter everyone.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Happy Easter to you to.

I like sarcasm which is why I use it.  Relax, you will live longer.

I have no problem with people being critical of the program, is it too much to ask that they use facts in the process or back it up with some consistency?  I don't think that is too much to ask, I really don't.  If people are going to say this program and it's accomplishments of late are "mediocre"...then back it up and while they're at it, please define mediocre because apparently the definition has changed drastically.

[ChicosBailBonds]

your point about Catholic schools is valid. Though, I'd be more inclined to group schools as either having football producing revenue or not. Nonetheless, MU, ND, BC, and Georgetown have storied basketball traditions and I could see any of these schools creating today's version of a dynasty.

Until TC brings in a bonafide bigman, I'm not convinced he's the best at selling the program.

Didn't Notre Dame miss the NCAAs 2 of the previous 3 years and their fans felt Brey was on his way out this year if they didn't make it?

I agree with you that any of them could become a "today's version of a dynasty" but some of these schools are only a year or two away from having their programs be...what's the term I'm looking for....mediocre?   

[Harrison]

Agreed chico's posts...absolutely regardless of the opinion or topic....are truly insufferable.  Much, like Murf can be, it is almost like he circles topics like a vulture and then descends.  As soon as he "lands" it is vomit inducing.  The guy is annoying, gotta be one of those types that people just avoid in the office, at parties (probably not invited to many), etc 
 

[StillAWarrior]

The guy is annoying, gotta be one of those types that people just avoid in the office, at parties (probably not invited to many), etc.

I partied with Chico many times at Marquette -- I can assure you that this isn't the case.

[4everwarriors]

And you admit to that? 8)

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thanks Still!

That's ok, where Harrison goes...Tony goes and where Tony goes...Harrison is right there.  It's priceless