MU Coaching Candidates

[shoothoops]

To consider him a strong candidate at this stage is asinine.  Maybe he will be good, and I didn’t say he won’t be. But let’s temper the enthusiasm of being top of the Horizon League not even completed his second season as head coach.  I would say a 55 pt loss to a run of the mill MAC program maybe is a slight red flag they’re not really as good as their confidence record suggests.

In case you’re new to following sports, the road is littered with guys who looked really good for one season, and the story is yet to even be written how this season will finish.   

Wait and see on him.  If this is general profile of our strong candidates, whoa.  This program has sunk much lower than I thought.

You somehow believe Marquette is on a higher plane than they are in the college basketball landscape. Marquette is a good job in college basketball. But let's get some perspective. There are many other good jobs in college basketball too.

In the past 40 years, Marquette has had less success than Villanova, Xavier, Georgetown, etc...in its own league, let alone some other leagues and teams.

As for Gates, his resume is certainly as good as several other realistic names I've seen mentioned that would both be qualified, and, take the job.

[cheebs09]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. He’s leaving (not fired) for two reasons.

1 - PR nightmare if he stays. He will get booed every home game.

2 - He’s hurting his future employability and next seasons prospects don’t look great. He’s going to go somewhere else while the “gettins good”

That’s kind of my hope. It’s probably easy enough to write this off as a Covid year for a new school. His resume is way better than Jim Christian’s before being hired by BC. I could see that being a good fit for him to get back into the ACC.

[shoothoops]

While many here seem to downplay the financial side, I doubt (if we make a move) that we are going to go after proven commodities. Anyone who really demonstrates he can coach is unfortunately going to come at a high price tag. I agree about Gates being unproven, but we may have to roll the dice.

On that note, if we really wanted to gamble and go the unproven assistant route...does anyone have any thoughts on Roger Powell, Jr at Gonzaga? He played on an NCAA Runner-up team at Illinois. From Joliet, so knows the Midwest and Chicago. Could he help land an occasional overseas talent? Has worked at Valpo, Vanderbilt, and Gonzaga, so he knows he landscape of private, religious schools.

I haven%u2019t t followed this thread closely, so if he's been discussed, my bad.

Roger has had some successful stops as an assistant. He is a very good recruiter.

[Galway Eagle]

Nolan Richardson is still alive. I say we beat St Johns at their own game.

[HutchwasClutch]

You somehow believe Marquette is on a higher plane than they are in the college basketball landscape. Marquette is a good job in college basketball. But let's get some perspective. There are many other good jobs in college basketball too.

In the past 40 years, Marquette has had less success than Villanova, Xavier, Georgetown, etc...in its own league, let alone some other leagues and teams.

As for Gates, his resume is certainly as good as several other realistic names I've seen mentioned that would both be qualified, and, take the job.

Except for not having P5 conference affiliation, MU wants for nothing in the college basketball world.  In a plethora of areas on and off the court, MU is and should be a very appealing job for anyone.  Wojo knew it 7 years ago from the view of a blue blood program. 

MU is more than just a “good” job, and our coaching search should reflect that.  Aim high, we have a ton of selling points.

[shoothoops]

Except for not having P5 conference affiliation, MU wants for nothing in the college basketball world.  In a plethora of areas on and off the court, MU is and should be a very appealing job for anyone.  Wojo knew it 7 years ago from the view of a blue blood program. 

MU is more than just a “good” job, and our coaching search should reflect that.  Aim high, we have a ton of selling points.

No one said Marquette isn't a good job. It is. But there are many other good jobs too.

Marquette hired an assistant coach with no Head Coaching experience. And, it was an assistant that coached at one place in that assistant coaching experience.

Marquette's previous Head Coaching hire, Buzz Williams, whom many consider one of the more successful Head Coaches at Marquette in a long time, had one year of Head Coaching experience where he was three games under .500 in that one year.

Different coaches present different categories of strength.

[NickelDimer]

That’s kind of my hope. It’s probably easy enough to write this off as a Covid year for a new school. His resume is way better than Jim Christian’s before being hired by BC. I could see that being a good fit for him to get back into the ACC.

I agree. He’s got just enough of a fool’s gold resume too attract a school.

[Billy Hoyle]

Add Craig Robinson to this list.  One good season of two leading an Ivy League program, and he gets a P5 gig! And then is kept for 6 seasons and has a losing conference record every year.

Robinson took the job after Ron Hunter (also AA) turned it down. OSU was basically down to giving the job to whomever wanted it.

Lorenzo Romar got another job after being fired at Washington. Rod Barnes coaching again after being fired at Ole Miss.  Dawkins and and Amaker scooped up immediately after being fired. Louis Orr coached 7 years after being fired from Seton Hall.

And let’s not forget Kelvin Sampson, who landed two programs in significant probation and is back coaching at Houston.

While the hardships AA coaches face in college football are legit, they are given far more opportunities in college hoops.

[GoldenWarrior11]

I can't tell if this is parody or not?

Are we serious? Now do White Coaches.

Let's take a look.

JT3 hasn't been a Head Coach in four years. He won 278 games at Georgetown. This includes 9 NCAA Tourney games there, some of it in the tougher Big East. He won the league title 3 times and he finished in the top four in the league six times. This doesn't include winning the Ivy League 3 out of his 4 seasons there. I'd say that's pretty good. But he hasn't had his door knocked down since leaving Georgetown.

Two seasons before his coaching tenure ended at Georgetown, he went 12-6 in the league. Some people here think that is either good enough for Wojo to either stay at Marquette or go to BC or Penn St.etc...

Leonard Hamilton?  Florida St. hadn't had a winning league record in the previous nine seasons prior to his arrival. He of course has done it 9 times, has won the ACC Regular Season Title, and he's won 9 NCAA games there and last year had one of the country's best teams.

It took Mike Krzyzewski and Jay Wright four years to make the NCAA's at Duke and Villanova. It's taken some others longer. Kevin Willard anyone?

You've named less than a dozen Black Head Coaches over a many year period, many of whom actually had success that warranted an additional opportunity.   In D-1 Ball (There are over 350 Head Coaches per season)

It's silly season if you think all things are equal or close to it from a racial standpoint.

So, again, who is being unfairly treated?  Are there specific examples of head coaches that you feel are being unfairly treated because of their skin color? 

Of the 351 D1 schools, about 30% are Black.  Is there a numerical figure that you feel would equate to fair?  Would that number be 50/50?  Again, I'm not being critical of your general statement; I am very interested in having a discussion about it to learn more.  The 2018 College Sport Racial and Gender Report Card showed that 53.6 percent of the Division I men's basketball players and 43 percent of the Division I women's players were Black.  Is the acceptable goal to move the percentage of Black head coaches to 50%?

I think it is fair statement that for all head coaches, whether you are White, Black, etc., if you win, you will always get another shot (even if there are allegations of cheating or wrong-doing).  However, if you lose, coaches very much get written-off and do not get another opportunity.  These are just my perceptions, so, again, I am happy to learn more and have a conversation about it. 

[shoothoops]

So, again, who is being unfairly treated?  Are there specific examples of head coaches that you feel are being unfairly treated because of their skin color? 

Of the 351 D1 schools, about 30% are Black.  Is there a numerical figure that you feel would equate to fair?  Would that number be 50/50?  Again, I'm not being critical of your general statement; I am very interested in having a discussion about it to learn more.  The 2018 College Sport Racial and Gender Report Card showed that 53.6 percent of the Division I men's basketball players and 43 percent of the Division I women's players were Black.  Is the acceptable goal to move the percentage of Black head coaches to 50%?

I think it is fair statement that for all head coaches, whether you are White, Black, etc., if you win, you will always get another shot (even if there are allegations of cheating or wrong-doing).  However, if you lose, coaches very much get written-off and do not get another opportunity.  These are just my perceptions, so, again, I am happy to learn more and have a conversation about it.

I don't think it's fair to say Black Head Coaches get the same initial opportunities, let alone as many multiple chances.

One of the first examples shown was JT3. And as I said, he was successful, yet he didn't get the opportunities after Georgetown.

Using 2020 numbers, 80% of Major College Conference Scholarship Basketball Players are Black. The numbers are even higher if we discuss a team's best players.

There are 29% total D-1 Black Head Coaches. Now take away Historically Black Colleges and Universities, that drops to 24% Now use top 7 leagues, that drops to 23%. Now do Power 5 schools and its 14%.

There are roughly 10 Black Athletic Directors out of those 353. I know of one College Basketball Search Firm not run by a White Male. (Asian) We can also do University Presidents too.

You also mentioned Women. We won't waste people's time discussing Women hires in Men's College Basketball.

In Women's College Basketball, Women of color make up 14% of D-1 hires. (2019) Women in general make up 11% of AD hires (out of 356)

[MU82]

I'm glad you had your fun and now for reality. Marquette has laid of 350 employees and are expecting more.

Here are some more numbers:

Wojo is owed approximately $6 million (maybe more because he deferred some this season due to Covid but we'll keep it at $6 million). Coaches are owed probably $1 million for next season. MU now owes $7 million in dead money.

Moser makes $1.15 million. Figure for him to move it has to be at least $1.6 million. Coaching staff will cost $1 million. That's $2.6 million. Now MU is up to $9.6 million for a basketball coach next season. Can't find his buyout but usually 50 - 75 percent what's owed. Moser has 4 years left so at a minimum it's $2 million. A guy that makes $1 million and will be less than $2 million at MU will not pay his own buyout. That $2 million brings the total to $11.6 million MU needs to pay out for a Moser next season, almost $9 million more that if we keep Wojo.

Add in Moser will probably be a hot property so we'll have competition. Maybe DePaul with get rid of Leitao. He makes $1.3 million. So the new administration ups what they pay their coach to match MU. Less pressure and no move. And one more thing. The BC AD was the guy that hired Moser at Loyola. They pay Christian $1.3 million so they can also drive up his price. So $1.6 million might be too low.

In all Moser will cost us at least $11 million next season.

Smith makes about $750,000 with a bunch of bonus opportunities. He has 2 years left with a buyout of 75 percent of his salary. Works out to about $1.1 million. Figure a $1.5 million salary and $1 million for coaches for a total of $3.6 million for Smith. That's $7 million more than they would pay Wojo and it comes to $10 million for Smith.

Here's another little fun fact. MU male athletics had $27 million in revenue in 2020. No ticket revenue in 20-21 and decrease of NCAA Tournament money with the expiration of credits from 6 years ago and no share from last year. Safe assumption games generate $300K per game/15 games is $4.5 million in lost revenue. (My estimate is based on $22 for 11,000 tickets per game. I didn't include in game advertising and sponsorships). So it is more.

To get rid of Wojo the athletic department will need to find a minimum of $7 million when it has a $27 million total budget for men's sports and lost about $4 million just in ticket revenue. And forget the PR nightmare of of raising $7 million while hundreds are being let go and others forced to take a pay freeze.

Unless a lot of you bought GameStop at $3 and sold at $300, if we do get rid of Wojo the next coach is an assistant coach or an unemployed coach.

I've been wanting a $$$-driven analysis like this, so thanks a ton for this, dc. I'm gonna bookmark it.

When you put the $$$ out there like this, and add in the pandemic and its financial impact, and the reality of it all slaps you in the face. I don't know enough about Marquette's overall situation to know whether this makes it impossible to fire Wojo; others here seem to think that it would still be possible so the fan in me hopes it happens.

But I think it should be pretty obvious that Marquette is not gonna pay $7M+ to dump Wojo and his staff ... and then also pay huge money for the "dream" coaches that others say the administration has an "obligation" to contact. We are not going to get Beilein or Matta or Rivers or Phil Jackson.

I do find myself nodding my head in agreement at the Scoopers who say that it could be even more painful financially to keep Wojo. It's a logical argument, and given that I also want to dump Wojo, it's easy for me to agree with it.

And if they decide to keep Wojo, as Sultan said, it's hard to imagine them not extending him. Which would really blow, even if it makes it easier to fire him after next season.

One thing for sure: It's going to be fascinating to follow how this all plays out over the next 2-3 months.

[Silent Verbal]

I may be misunderstanding all this, but if a school wanted to hire Wojo away from us, would they likely have to pay us 50-75% of what his buyout is?  Would it be completely unheard of for MU to waive that fee to make him more attractive to other schools wanting to hire him?

[GoldenWarrior11]

I don't think it's fair to say Black Head Coaches get the same initial opportunities, let alone as many multiple chances.

One of the first examples shown was JT3. And as I said, he was successful, yet he didn't get the opportunities after Georgetown.

Using 2020 numbers, 80% of Major College Conference Scholarship Basketball Players are Black. The numbers are even higher if we discuss a team's best players.

29% Black Head Coaches. Now take away Historically Black Colleges and Universities, that drops to 24% Now use top 7 leagues, that drops to 23%. Now do Power 5 schools and its 14%.

There are roughly 10 Black Athletic Directors out of those 353. I know of one College Basketball Search Firm not run by a White Male. (Asian) We can also do University Presidents too.

You also mentioned Women. We won't waste people's time discussing Women hires in Men's College Basketball.

In Women's College Basketball, Women of color make up 14% of D-1 hires. (2019) Women in general make up 11% of AD hires (out of 356)

Fair points, but you still haven't provided of an example of a Black head coach "being held to a different standard, and, recycled less often too."  Are you aware that multiple schools have reached out to JTIII since he was fired and he has turned down overtures?  I know that George Washington and Vanderbilt both reached out to JTIII regarding their recent vacancies (and both hired other Black head coaches), and he did not pursue them.  JTII currently works for the Washington Wizards and, by all accounts, is happy living and remaining in the D.C. area.  Who are you thinking of what you declare this? 

I think your argument is more Black coaches not having more opportunities to be head coaches (which involves having more assistant coaches and pathways to become head coaches), not that Black coaches are held to a different standard and are often recycled less. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Add Craig Robinson to this list.  One good season of two leading an Ivy League program, and he gets a P5 gig! And then is kept for 6 seasons and has a losing conference record every year.

Thanks, Obama.

[shoothoops]

Fair points, but you still haven't provided of an example of a Black head coach "being held to a different standard, and, recycled less often too."  Are you aware that multiple schools have reached out to JTIII since he was fired and he has turned down overtures?  I know that George Washington and Vanderbilt both reached out to JTIII regarding their recent vacancies (and both hired other Black head coaches), and he did not pursue them.  JTII currently works for the Washington Wizards and, by all accounts, is happy living and remaining in the D.C. area.  Who are you thinking of what you declare this? 

I think your argument is more Black coaches not having more opportunities to be head coaches (which involves having more assistant coaches and pathways to become head coaches), not that Black coaches are held to a different standard and are often recycled less.

Reaching out and being offered aren't the same thing. For example,  JT3 wasn't offered the Vanderbilt position. Malcolm Turner hired Jerry Stackhouse.

I can walk through any Black or White Head Coach you want.

Part of being held to a different standard is getting the positions in the first place. Also, some of the Black coaches mentioned had success in order to get another position, some much more so than many White Coaches. Mike Anderson etc..Leonard Hamilton. Al Skinner led Boston College to some of its best success in school history. His next HC opportunity came five years later at Kennesaw St.

It's difficult to believe we have to have a conversation about equal opportunity and equal standards, but here we are.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Anybody warming up to Moser yet?

[jesmu84]

Thanks, Obama.

Wut?

[Afroman]

For the last few weeks, a fellow MU grad/fan has been texting me if I'm watching the Loyola game (because of Moser).
Usually, I'm not.
Today I received these three texts ...

"I used to say the Big East affiliation saved MU from being Loyola"
"Now"
"I wish Marquette was Loyola"

[JWags85]

Anybody warming up to Moser yet?

Nice win for Loyola, absolutely blitzed them in the second half, but one game, especially in this season, does nothing to change the narrative on Moser if you weren’t already enamored.  Drake is having a nice season, but again, like a Loyola, it’s been built on beating down other teams in a soft MVC.  Their non con was an AWFUL Kansas St team, an even worse Air Force team, and some scrubs. They just struggled mightily last weekend on the road against Valpo. 

Also, FWIW, Drake is missing their leading scorer and second leading rebounder.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Reaching out and being offered aren't the same thing. For example,  JT3 wasn't offered the Vanderbilt position. Malcolm Turner hired Jerry Stackhouse.

I can walk through any Black or White Head Coach you want.

Part of being held to a different standard is getting the positions in the first place. Also, some of the Black coaches mentioned had success in order to get another position, some much more so than many White Coaches. Mike Anderson etc..Leonard Hamilton. Al Skinner led Boston College to some of its best success in school history. His next HC opportunity came five years later at Kennesaw St.

It's difficult to believe we have to have a conversation about equal opportunity and equal standards, but here we are.

That's a good example with Al Skinner.  Boston College has not come close to the level of success they had under him, and he, for whatever reason, was not able to get another head coaching opportunity after BC (Kennesaw State is a substantial drop-off, yet he went 41-86 there).  I think the Vanderbilt situation is not a good example to highlight because, while they did not hire JTIII, they still hired Jerry Stackhouse, a Black head coach and a coach that had zero collegiate coaching experience, which often does not end well (see Drexler, A. Johnson, Mullin, Porter, Price, Ewing, etc.). 

I think the Big East, and Marquette, does a really strong job promoting Black head coaches (Ewing, Anderson, Leitao, Jordan, Cooley), as well as assistant coaches as part of the Coaches for Action group (21 Black assistant coaches in the Big East).  The Big East, because of John Thompson, have always had a strong presence in the Black community and its attempt to promote and highlight. 

As a previous poster said, you can make the argument that this topic is a big problem in the NFL or the even the NBA.  I don't think it is as big a concern in college basketball.  If you win, even if you cheat, you will always have other opportunities; if you lose, even cleanly, I think it is tremendously difficult to get another job.

[LAZER]

Nice win for Loyola, absolutely blitzed them in the second half, but one game, especially in this season, does nothing to change the narrative on Moser if you weren’t already enamored.  Drake is having a nice season, but again, like a Loyola, it’s been built on beating down other teams in a soft MVC.  Their non con was an AWFUL Kansas St team, an even worse Air Force team, and some scrubs. They just struggled mightily last weekend on the road against Valpo. 

Also, FWIW, Drake is missing their leading scorer and second leading rebounder.

So what actually does change the narrative for Moser?

[Scoop Snoop]

I was high on Moser but it would mean starting with all new players since not a single Loyola player had even one tat.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I’m fine with opening the checkbook for Moser. If he can recruit guys to willingly play at the Gentile Center, I think he’ll make the jump just fine.

[shoothoops]

That's a good example with Al Skinner.  Boston College has not come close to the level of success they had under him, and he, for whatever reason, was not able to get another head coaching opportunity after BC (Kennesaw State is a substantial drop-off, yet he went 41-86 there).  I think the Vanderbilt situation is not a good example to highlight because, while they did not hire JTIII, they still hired Jerry Stackhouse, a Black head coach and a coach that had zero collegiate coaching experience, which often does not end well (see Drexler, A. Johnson, Mullin, Porter, Price, Ewing, etc.). 

I think the Big East, and Marquette, does a really strong job promoting Black head coaches (Ewing, Anderson, Leitao, Jordan, Cooley), as well as assistant coaches as part of the Coaches for Action group (21 Black assistant coaches in the Big East).  The Big East, because of John Thompson, have always had a strong presence in the Black community and its attempt to promote and highlight. 

As a previous poster said, you can make the argument that this topic is a big problem in the NFL or the even the NBA.  I don't think it is as big a concern in college basketball.  If you win, even if you cheat, you will always have other opportunities; if you lose, even cleanly, I think it is tremendously difficult to get another job.

You mentioned JT3. I mentioned he wasn't getting offers after Georgetown.despite his success there and elsewhere. I included Vandy because you mentioned JT3 and Vandy. Now Vandy isn't a good example (the example was JT3 not Vandy) because they hired Stackhouse. Stack was hired by one of those few Black AD's that knew him from the NBA. (Since, Vandy has hired Candice Lee as its AD, the first ever Black Female AD in the history of the SEC Conference.)

Stack was hired because of his successful NBA and G League coaching experience. He was G League Coach of the Year and G League Champs. He is very well known for his Player Development. Somehow you lumped that into a group with, say, Clyde Drexler. Drexler didn't have coaching experience at those levels and went to his alma mater for two seasons. He then later spent one season as an NBA assistant.

Respectfully, I on't think you are making the points you think you are making here.

[shoothoops]

So what actually does change the narrative for Moser?

Well, previously in this thread he wanted to "see how they do vs Drake."

Loyola wins by 27 on the road. "Drake was missing a player." "Drake had beaten soft teams in a bad league etc,.."

He doesn't like Moser. And that's fine.

But that doesn't change the success Moser is having at Loyola, and, had at SLU.