MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tugg Speedman on October 27, 2014, 12:52:17 PM
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I just saw a video of Michael Jordan taken in August at his Flight Basketball camp. Jordan claims he had not picked up a basketball in months, he is 51 years old and 30 to 40 pounds heavier than his playing weight. Nevertheless he calmly walked on the court and sank 11 3 pointers in a row.
Legend has it that during the shooting of the movie Blue Chips, a retirement age Bob Cousy calmly sank 15 straight FTs in the first take.
All this got me thinking (always a dangerous think) ... how much of shooting a basketball is a skill you're born with and how much can be learned? Do you either "have it or not" and all the practice in the world will only lead to marginal improvement? Or, through dedication and hard-work can anyone learn to shoot a basketball as good as Jordan and Cousy?
To be clear, I'm talking about matching these guys on the PRACTICE COURT, not in the stress of game situations and, of course, they possess many other skills I will never have that makes them NBA greats and makes me a person that pays for tickets to watch them. But could anyone, if they tried hard enough learn to shoot a basketball to the point that they can step in from the stands and clamly hit 11 threes or 15 FTs?
Last thought, it has been noted that in the last 50 years the average NBA players have not really gotten better shooting free throws.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/sports/basketball/04freethrow.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Since the mid-1960s, college men’s players have made about 69 percent of free throws, the unguarded 15-foot, 1-point shot awarded after a foul. In 1965, the rate was 69 percent. This season, as teams scramble for bids to the N.C.A.A. tournament, it was 68.8. It has dropped as low as 67.1 but never topped 70.
In the National Basketball Association, the average has been roughly 75 percent for more than 50 years. Players in college women’s basketball and the W.N.B.A. reached similar plateaus — about equal to the men — and stuck there.
The general expectation in sports is that performance improves over time. Future athletes will surely be faster, throw farther, jump higher. But free-throw shooting represents a stubbornly peculiar athletic endeavor. As a group, players have not gotten better. Nor have they become worse.
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/03/04/sports/04freethrow.grafic.jpg)
Is this more evidence that you either "have it or not" and all the practice in improving shooting is of marginal value?
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You are also assuming players are practicing free throws more over that time period, which I highly doubt. In regards to the comment of performance improving over time, no one is introducing a more effective shooting motion. So many times how a game changes is the style of play changes. Shooting form is for the most part, the same today as it was back in the 60's.
Also, I believe that shooting a ball is so much more about practice than natural talent. Some might be able to catch on faster, but in talking about Jordan and Cousy, they have practiced so much in their life that its like riding a bike. Just looking at kids playing, most are pretty bad when they start. It's the kids who are playing a couple times a week or shooting in their driveway consistently that get good.
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I just saw a video of Michael Jordan taken in August at his Flight Basketball camp. Jordan claims he had not picked up a basketball in months, he is 51 years old and 30 to 40 pounds heavier than his playing weight. Nevertheless he calmly walked on the court and sank 11 3 pointers in a row.
Legend has it that during the shooting of the movie Blue Chips, a retirement age Bob Cousy calmly sank 15 straight FTs in the first take.
All this got me thinking (always a dangerous think) ... how much of shooting a basketball is a skill you're born with and how much can be learned? Do you either "have it or not" and all the practice in the world will only lead to marginal improvement? Or, through dedication and hard-work can anyone learn to shoot a basketball as good as Jordan and Cousy?
To be clear, I'm talking about matching these guys on the PRACTICE COURT, not in the stress of game situations and, of course, they possess many other skills I will never have that makes them NBA greats and makes me a person that pays for tickets to watch them. But could anyone, if they tried hard enough learn to shoot a basketball to the point that they can step in from the stands and clamly hit 11 threes or 15 FTs?
Last thought, it has been noted that in the last 50 years the average NBA players have not really gotten better shooting free throws.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/sports/basketball/04freethrow.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Since the mid-1960s, college men’s players have made about 69 percent of free throws, the unguarded 15-foot, 1-point shot awarded after a foul. In 1965, the rate was 69 percent. This season, as teams scramble for bids to the N.C.A.A. tournament, it was 68.8. It has dropped as low as 67.1 but never topped 70.
In the National Basketball Association, the average has been roughly 75 percent for more than 50 years. Players in college women’s basketball and the W.N.B.A. reached similar plateaus — about equal to the men — and stuck there.
The general expectation in sports is that performance improves over time. Future athletes will surely be faster, throw farther, jump higher. But free-throw shooting represents a stubbornly peculiar athletic endeavor. As a group, players have not gotten better. Nor have they become worse.
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/03/04/sports/04freethrow.grafic.jpg)
Is this more evidence that you either "have it or not" and all the practice in improving shooting is of marginal value?
Yo, what did ya do/did for a livin'? At the end of your career, couldn't ya do that gig in your sleep?
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You are also assuming players are practicing free throws more over that time period, which I highly doubt. In regards to the comment of performance improving over time, no one is introducing a more effective shooting motion. So many times how a game changes is the style of play changes. Shooting form is for the most part, the same today as it was back in the 60's.
Also, I believe that shooting a ball is so much more about practice than natural talent. Some might be able to catch on faster, but in talking about Jordan and Cousy, they have practiced so much in their life that its like riding a bike. Just looking at kids playing, most are pretty bad when they start. It's the kids who are playing a couple times a week or shooting in their driveway consistently that get good.
Agree with you. Muscle memory probably also has a lot to do with it.
My mother was a relatively decent HS basketball player in high school, but given that she was a female and this was Mississippi in the '50's, did not exactly have elite-level coaching. When I was in junior high, my parents put up a basketball goal in our back yard. Mom, who had not attempted a shot since her playing days, picked up the ball and sank a half-dozen free throws in a row.
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So anyone on our team that cannot shoot it's due to a lack of practice rather than shooting is a natural talent?
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I saw a 47 year old Chris Mullin rain in 3 pointers on the Pros vs Joes tv show.Back in the 70s when I used to play in the upper gym about Jenison Field House at Michigan State, there were lots of guys in their 50s and 60s who hit crazy set shots from very long distance. I truly believe once you have the form down and muscle memory it is something you have for life.
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So anyone on our team that cannot shoot it's due to a lack of practice rather than shooting is a natural talent?
No, it is lack of practice with good/proper form. if your form is terrible, and wildly inconsistent, i dont think practice helps (see, e.g., VB). mullin, jordan, etc have great form and have taken 1000s of shots.
my uncle in law played college ball late 60s, great scorer in his day (alas, not at MU). had a hip replaced and cant move well. still a fantastic shooter.
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Like riding a bike n yes shooting a basketball like swinging a golf club can be worked on technically. Sure there are guys like reggie miller or jim furyck that are elite despite being unorthodox, but for the majority most good shooters are good at repeating their form an following many of the basic shooting fundamentla that reduce the deviation
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Derrick wrote the book on it.
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So anyone on our team that cannot shoot it's due to a lack of practice rather than shooting is a natural talent?
The mind can be a curious thing. Just by playing as much basketball as he did, shouldn't Shaquille O'Neal have had enough free throw practice to make them in his sleep? I forget the player's name, but I remember the story of a major league second baseman who was almost cut for not being able to make the throw to first base. His career was saved when his club got a sports psychologist to get across to him that the the throw to first base was by far the easiest thing that he had to do during a game.
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The mind can be a curious thing. Just by playing as much basketball as he did, shouldn't Shaquille O'Neal have had enough free throw practice to make them in his sleep? I forget the player's name, but I remember the story of a major league second baseman who was almost cut for not being able to make the throw to first base. His career was saved when his club got a sports psychologist to get across to him that the the throw to first base was by far the easiest thing that he had to do during a game.
My understanding is he did. He was nearly perfect in practice day-in and day-out. But a game is not practice.
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Some people have the muscle coordination necessary to be consistent outside shooters and some don't. I bet that some "bad shooters" practice as much as Steve Novak does, with just as good a form. But they simple don't have the coordination necessary to be consistent.
The same reason why a good shooter can go a lengthy time without shooting and still knock a bunch down when they finally do pick up a ball.
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My understanding is he did. He was nearly perfect in practice day-in and day-out. But a game is not practice.
So that brings up the matter of anxiety and its effect on any type of performance.
Regarding your original question, if you've got the time to read a 100 pages or so, this book may answer that for you.
http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Archery-Eugen-Herrigel/dp/0375705090 (http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Archery-Eugen-Herrigel/dp/0375705090)
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Derrick wrote the book on it.
Hahaha, I was gonna mention him but didn't have the heart to do it.
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My understanding is he did. He was nearly perfect in practice day-in and day-out. But a game is not practice.
Shaq used to brag about making them in practice, which I found odd because he basically was calling himself a big-time choker in games.
As for MJ hitting 3s and some of these other stories, I remember reading about Sandy Koufax showing up at Dodgers camp one day when he was well in his 60s and striking out big-league hitters with nothing but fastballs. Don't know if it was true or an urban legend, though.
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Some people have the muscle coordination necessary to be consistent outside shooters and some don't. I bet that some "bad shooters" practice as much as Steve Novak does, with just as good a form. But they simple don't have the coordination necessary to be consistent.
The same reason why a good shooter can go a lengthy time without shooting and still knock a bunch down when they finally do pick up a ball.
I agee with this ... The skills of being a successful shooter are different from being a good athlete. You can have both but being good at one does not mean you're good at the other.
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Yo, what did ya do/did for a livin'? At the end of your career, couldn't ya do that gig in your sleep?
+1
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What amazes me when I go to the Y back home and play pickup ball with the same guys that have been playing there since I was 14 (31 years ago if you're counting) - the "oldies" shoot about 60% (that's the 40+ group), while the "kids" (high school and college age up to about 30, shoot about 30%.
I actually think it's something that you get better at as you get older.
Could also be that the oldies are hacking the &^%$ out of the kids, but that's just where experience matters!
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Novak - father was a basketball coach.
Diener - Uncle (father?) was a basketball coach.
You have to have the talent, but great three point shooting is taught. I have to believe that JJJ"s shot would be much more fundamentally sound, if he had been adopted by Steve Novak's father.
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I just saw a video of Michael Jordan taken in August at his Flight Basketball camp. Jordan claims he had not picked up a basketball in months, he is 51 years old and 30 to 40 pounds heavier than his playing weight. Nevertheless he calmly walked on the court and sank 11 3 pointers in a row.
Legend has it that during the shooting of the movie Blue Chips, a retirement age Bob Cousy calmly sank 15 straight FTs in the first take.
All this got me thinking (always a dangerous think) ... how much of shooting a basketball is a skill you're born with and how much can be learned? Do you either "have it or not" and all the practice in the world will only lead to marginal improvement? Or, through dedication and hard-work can anyone learn to shoot a basketball as good as Jordan and Cousy?
To be clear, I'm talking about matching these guys on the PRACTICE COURT, not in the stress of game situations and, of course, they possess many other skills I will never have that makes them NBA greats and makes me a person that pays for tickets to watch them. But could anyone, if they tried hard enough learn to shoot a basketball to the point that they can step in from the stands and clamly hit 11 threes or 15 FTs?
Last thought, it has been noted that in the last 50 years the average NBA players have not really gotten better shooting free throws.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/sports/basketball/04freethrow.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Since the mid-1960s, college men’s players have made about 69 percent of free throws, the unguarded 15-foot, 1-point shot awarded after a foul. In 1965, the rate was 69 percent. This season, as teams scramble for bids to the N.C.A.A. tournament, it was 68.8. It has dropped as low as 67.1 but never topped 70.
In the National Basketball Association, the average has been roughly 75 percent for more than 50 years. Players in college women’s basketball and the W.N.B.A. reached similar plateaus — about equal to the men — and stuck there.
The general expectation in sports is that performance improves over time. Future athletes will surely be faster, throw farther, jump higher. But free-throw shooting represents a stubbornly peculiar athletic endeavor. As a group, players have not gotten better. Nor have they become worse.
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/03/04/sports/04freethrow.grafic.jpg)
Is this more evidence that you either "have it or not" and all the practice in improving shooting is of marginal value?
Talk to a piano player. They'll learn how to play a song to the point where they can play the entire song by memory perfectly. And after a year or more of not playing that particular song, they might mess up here and there, but they'll largely be able to play the song again without needing the sheet music. It's an instance of muscle memory (granted the musician can listen for it as well), but when you've put the time in, it's harder to forget than you'd think.
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To illustrate my point, here's Maria Joao Pires playing a concerto completely by memory because she was expecting to play another piece.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVO26URqC24