Education Thread

[CTWarrior]

That is exactly how it works in many/most educational institutions in this nation also.  Slightly modified in some, because defining a department in some educational levels is more complicated.  The annual raises are far less common in academia/education (see WI), just as they are becoming less common in all industries.  The trends in how raises work has evolved similarly in all disciplines. 

That's not how it works in the school districts around here.  A pay scale is established for your position and your salary is based solely on the level of education you've completed and your years of service.  There is no wiggle room. 

I think a lot of people don't go into teaching for that reason.  Because you are working less official hours your salary is lower and your ability increase that through hard work/excellence is not there.  It was great my family.  When our kid was in school we could save on day care because my wife could get him and go home every day.  If she had homework she could do it after I got home.  She was off in the summer when he was off.  It is an ideal profession for a mom or dad with a working spouse.  It is not an ideal profession for a sole supporter of a family, which is why Walter White became Heisenberg.

[jsglow]

I'm going to disagree a bit.
Simply arguing that the Great Society programs of the 60s were counterproductive (and I also can happily skip debating the merits of that) is not being committed to social justice. It's being committed to opposing the Great Society programs.
However, holding that position while also offering/advocating/supporting alternative solutions could be a sign of commitment.
It's akin to arguing that members of the GOP eager to repeal Obamacare are in favor expanding healthcare coverage because they oppose Obamacare.

Yep. Agreed. Perhaps not the best example.

[SaveOD238]

Well then...it appears we made it this far without hearing from an actual teacher! Lemme fix that. (Thanks TAMU for telling me this was going on)

1. Teachers are underpaid.  This is due to the historical view of teaching, in that it was a a career reserved for young, single, and other-wise unemployable women.  Persons in other careers with similar levels of education and experience make more than teachers.  (Note: this is all on average, and rich suburban schools do not have the same problem that urban schools do...heck even Illinois teachers make way more than Wisconsin)

2. Teachers work about the same as everyone else, maybe more.  I take home more work than my wife (who is a Physical therapist), but she works longer hours at work.  She gets more actual days off than me, even when you add in my summer break.  And lots of teachers work second (umpiring) and third (summer IT) jobs in addition to coaching (cross country), attending professional development, planning curriculum, and grad school during the summer.  I feel busier now than during the school year.

3. Teachers deal with children.  Lots of them at the same time.  All day. 

4. I teach at a private Catholic voucher school in an urban area.  I get paid ~35K, and I won't go over 50K when I get my Masters.  The top of the pay scale is less than 60K.  I'll never make 50% of my wife's salary. How can you expect to attract and retain qualified individuals when the pay is so scanty?  Public schools have the same problem.  I actually wouldn't make much, if any, more if I moved to Racine Unified or even Oak Creek.

5. On the voucher/choice debate: Choice is a great idea in principle, but if voucher schools aren't held to the same high standards as public, it will fail.   I know that the standards at my school aren't what is expected of public school teachers and it's like pulling teeth to get my colleagues to implement proven effective teaching strategies because the older ones are very used to not being accountable for anything. 

6. Teachers suffer from a problem that no other career has: everyone thinks they can be a teacher because they have spent so much time observing and modeling teachers. There's some mystery about what your doctor actually does and there's some question about the math an engineering used to make something work, but teaching, "that's easy."  No one would EVER suggest that you can be a lawyer without a law degree or license, but there are states (Wisconsin among them) that don't require a teaching degree to teach in certain situations.  This is especially true in private and voucher schools not held to the same requirements as public.

7. Teaching actually does weed out most of the bad teachers.  The rate of teachers leaving the profession is absurd, something like 40-50% leave in the first five years (I will survive being part of this statistic on day one of this year!)  There's two reasons for this: teaching is hard, and teaching doesn't pay well.  The fact that teaching is hard weeds out many of the bad teachers.  Unfortunately, teaching not paying well weeds out good teachers too.

Now, I'm going to go drive in to school (in the summer) to work in the IT department getting student iPads ready for next year.  Y'all can have fun posting here while you sit at your desks in your office jobs.

[Pakuni]

Well then...it appears we made it this far without hearing from an actual teacher! Lemme fix that. (Thanks TAMU for telling me this was going on)

1. Teachers are underpaid.  This is due to the historical view of teaching, in that it was a a career reserved for young, single, and other-wise unemployable women.  Persons in other careers with similar levels of education and experience make more than teachers.  (Note: this is all on average, and rich suburban schools do not have the same problem that urban schools do...heck even Illinois teachers make way more than Wisconsin)

2. Teachers work about the same as everyone else, maybe more.  I take home more work than my wife (who is a Physical therapist), but she works longer hours at work.  She gets more actual days off than me, even when you add in my summer break.  And lots of teachers work second (umpiring) and third (summer IT) jobs in addition to coaching (cross country), attending professional development, planning curriculum, and grad school during the summer.  I feel busier now than during the school year.

3. Teachers deal with children.  Lots of them at the same time.  All day. 

4. I teach at a private Catholic voucher school in an urban area.  I get paid ~35K, and I won't go over 50K when I get my Masters.  The top of the pay scale is less than 60K.  I'll never make 50% of my wife's salary. How can you expect to attract and retain qualified individuals when the pay is so scanty?  Public schools have the same problem.  I actually wouldn't make much, if any, more if I moved to Racine Unified or even Oak Creek.

5. On the voucher/choice debate: Choice is a great idea in principle, but if voucher schools aren't held to the same high standards as public, it will fail.   I know that the standards at my school aren't what is expected of public school teachers and it's like pulling teeth to get my colleagues to implement proven effective teaching strategies because the older ones are very used to not being accountable for anything. 

6. Teachers suffer from a problem that no other career has: everyone thinks they can be a teacher because they have spent so much time observing and modeling teachers. There's some mystery about what your doctor actually does and there's some question about the math an engineering used to make something work, but teaching, "that's easy."  No one would EVER suggest that you can be a lawyer without a law degree or license, but there are states (Wisconsin among them) that don't require a teaching degree to teach in certain situations.  This is especially true in private and voucher schools not held to the same requirements as public.

7. Teaching actually does weed out most of the bad teachers.  The rate of teachers leaving the profession is absurd, something like 40-50% leave in the first five years (I will survive being part of this statistic on day one of this year!)  There's two reasons for this: teaching is hard, and teaching doesn't pay well.  The fact that teaching is hard weeds out many of the bad teachers.  Unfortunately, teaching not paying well weeds out good teachers too.

Now, I'm going to go drive in to school (in the summer) to work in the IT department getting student iPads ready for next year.  Y'all can have fun posting here while you sit at your desks in your office jobs.

[warriorchick]

An obvious product of the failing public school system.

[MU82]

Outstanding post, SaveOD. I truly appreciate that you work so hard for kids.

A few observations from my peanut gallery ...

+++ My kids grew up on the North Side of Chicago and spent all of their years in CPS. They went to Bell Elementary, which has 3 components - neighborhood, gifted and school for the deaf. We moved to Chicago (from Minny) in November of my daughter's second-grade year. Her teacher was a hoot - the bell would sound and she literally would beat the kids out of the school. When my wife and I would go pick up our kids, we would laugh watching her practically race out of the schoolyard. We'd say that for an end-of-year gift, the kids should give her a new pair of track shoes. We never knew where she was going; maybe she had a sick parent to take care of or a second job or maybe she just couldn't wait to escape the kiddies and grab a drink. Talking to her during parent-teacher days, reading her comments about my daughter's work, etc, made me honestly believe that my 7-year-old daughter was more intelligent than this teacher.

+++ She, however, was an outlier. Both of my kids moved to the gifted program the next year (their first full year at the school), and they mostly had wonderful teachers. And the majority of the neighborhood-school teachers were very well respected; people moved into our neighborhood just so their kids could go to Bell. My kids (now 30 and 29 years old) STILL talk in glowing terms about a couple of their teachers from Bell!

+++ Bell's reputation was very good for those of us who owned homes in the district, as it drove up their worth. It was a two-way street, though - most parents in the district were very engaged and had well-above-average income for CPS parents. The neighborhood schools on either side of ours were not as fortunate. They might have had some incredible teachers but the results were nowhere near the same because of high poverty, poor parental involvement, etc, etc.

+++ After Bell, my kids went to Payton Prep, a (then) new "magnet" high school. It, along with Northside Prep, were Daley's two educational jewels. Ever since it opened, Payton has performed right up there with New Trier and all of the other acclaimed suburban schools. Look up test scores, and you'll still see Payton and Northside at or near the top. The racial makeup of Payton when my kids went there was roughly 35% white, 30% black, 20% Latino, 15% Asian. I loved that my kids got to interact with peers from so many different races, nationalities, religions and socio-economic groups. Parents cared, and the teachers were excellent. Still, there were a few teachers we didn't think were as good as others - name any profession where that's not the case.

+++ Ever since she was 2, my daughter wanted to be a teacher. She kept the same goal for her entire time at Bell and Payton. But while in college, some of her older friends, family members and acquaintances started talking about how much they hated teaching - how difficult it was, how little support they received, how bad the pay was relative to peers who had gone into accounting or engineering or hundreds of other professions. And so my daughter - who would have been a SPECTACULAR teacher - ended up choosing a different career path. She now works in the mortgage industry and makes twice as much as she would have teaching. In this job, parents are not blaming her for things out of her control; teenagers are not calling her a beyotch; she doesn't have to break up fights; she doesn't have to buy her own supplies; and she gets paid OT.

+++ My wife and I moved to NC in 2010. Ever since we arrived, teacher pay has been a major issue, regardless of which party has been in charge. NC has ranked near the bottom in teacher pay for years. There are no teachers unions in NC. You get the salary and benefits they give you - period. I coached basketball at the best middle school (by test scores) in the state, a charter school for gifted kids. The teachers there are amazing. And they are paid absolute peanuts. A sixth-year teacher whose students produce the best test scores for his/her grade in the entire state ... not making even $50K! True! As a resident of this state, it's humiliating.

+++ My future daughter-in-law teaches 4th grade at a public school in Northbrook. She just completed her fifth year there and she's paid about $60K. Not too bad, but cost of living is outrageous there, of course.

+++ Folks have brought up the great benefits teachers get. Well, this was a real eye-opener for me: My future daughter-in-law has a good health plan that costs her about $100/month in payroll deductions. When she inquired into how much more it would be to get my son on her plan after they get married next year, the cost was - you're not gonna believe this! - nearly $900/month!!! They are talking about wanting to start a family fairly soon after they get married, but that health insurance will be a real issue. So here you have a teacher in a very well-to-do Chicago suburb ... and the health-benefits package for those with families sucks big time.

+++ I don't pretend to have all the answers. Hell, I don't really have any. I do know it's about more than just throwing money at failing schools. One thing I'm pretty sure isn't an answer is vouchers. Early results from the voucher program started here a few years ago show kids from private schools who received vouchers are actually doing worse on test scores than their public-school peers. Charter schools have some promise, but we've had a bunch of them fail here. Now you have corporations getting into for-profit charter schools; not sure how that will work out.

+++ One thing I am certain of is that the VAST majority of public-school teachers (and private-school teachers, for that matter) work their keisters off, most of them for relatively little money. For all of the stories of $100K driver's ed teachers, check out the salaries of teachers in just about any red state - you know, the places where it supposedly is all about "family values."

That's all I've got. I know, I know ... who asked me?!!?!?

[warriorchick]

+++ Folks have brought up the great benefits teachers get. Well, this was a real eye-opener for me: My future daughter-in-law has a good health plan that costs her about $100/month in payroll deductions. When she inquired into how much more it would be to get my son on her plan after they get married next year, the cost was - you're not gonna believe this! - nearly $900/month!!! They are talking about wanting to start a family fairly soon after they get married, but that health insurance will be a real issue. So here you have a teacher in a very well-to-do Chicago suburb ... and the health-benefits package for those with families sucks big time.

It's probably expensive because the benefits are so rich.  And CPS's claims experience is probably terrible on top of everything else, which is not surprising if the deductibles and co-pays are low.

Does your future son-in-law not get health insurance at his own place of work?  He can probably get EE+children coverage for way less than $900.

If he can't, he would be eligible for Obamacare for less than half of that (last I checked).

[MU82]

It's probably expensive because the benefits are so rich.  And CPS's claims experience is probably terrible on top of everything else, which is not surprising if the deductibles and co-pays are low.

Does your future son-in-law not get health insurance at his own place of work?  He can probably get EE+children coverage for way less than $900.

If he can't, he would be eligible for Obamacare for less than half of that (last I checked).

My son's employer just now has started offering a healthcare plan and he has signed up for it. Their fiscal year starts Aug. 1, so it will kick in for him then. It's more expensive than the high-deductible catastrophic plan he has had the last few years, but it offers much more coverage. He'll stay on that after they get married. After they have kids? Who knows. They'll have to compare costs of various plans.

By that time, I'm sure Comrade President will have lived up to his campaign promise: Healthcare for "everyone," it will be better than Obamacare, and it will cost less. I mean, the man NEVER lies, so book it!

[Lennys Tap]

By that time, I'm sure Comrade President will have lived up to his campaign promise: Healthcare for "everyone," it will be better than Obamacare, and it will cost less. I mean, the man NEVER lies, so book it!

Perhaps he'll win "Lie of the Year" for it like President Obama did for his "If you like your plan, you can keep it" lie he repeated so many times that I almost believed it!

[Jockey]

The right leaner will say that the Great Society programs of the 60s actually caused much of the social unrest and disfunction in the minority community.  Let's not argue the merits of that position.

I'm not sure I know what you are saying, Glow.

It sounds like it is that giving blacks rights that were equal to those that whites enjoyed since our nations birth is what caused social unrest in the minority community. That allowing them to eat in the same restaurant as whites caused social unrest.

I'm guessing either I am reading you wrong or your message didn't come out as you intended.

Either way, I would like to hear your further thoughts on this.

[Jockey]

3. Teachers deal with children.  Lots of them at the same time.  All day. 

And in public schools, you get all kinds of these little monsters

Kids that want to learn and kids that don't want to be there. Kids that are even-tempered and kids that, realistically, should be locked up. The teacher has to deal with them all - sometimes 30 or more at a time.

When a kid is disruptive, it tales away from the entire class. They can't just be sent to the principal's office because they can't be trusted to go there, so the teacher must accompany them - leaving the other 30+ kids unsupervised.

Most of us could not deal with that everyday. I applaud that you are able to do so. I know a private school is not nearly as bad that way as public schools, but it is still no piece of cake.

[Jockey]

It's probably expensive because the benefits are so rich.  And CPS's claims experience is probably terrible on top of everything else, which is not surprising if the deductibles and co-pays are low.

Does your future son-in-law not get health insurance at his own place of work?  He can probably get EE+children coverage for way less than $900.

If he can't, he would be eligible for Obamacare for less than half of that (last I checked).

No, without qualifying for subsidies (which they would not), there is no Obamacare plan for $450.

[dgies9156]

I've deliberately waited until now to weigh in on this one. My experiences are in some ways very different, having been exposed to the best and the worst of the public and private systems.

1) The reason Catholic schools almost consistently perform more efficiently than public schools is twofold. First is, as another poster noted, they don't deal with special needs children. Your standardized tests will be much higher when and if you eliminate the negative outliers from your pupil base. Secondly, Catholic and other private schools are more efficient because they don't have the administrative overhead of a public system. Take money from the federal or state government or exist on public dole and you have compliance issues, reporting requirements and anti-discrimination expectations. Those of you who think the federal government will ultimately give vouchers, no strings attached... well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you.

2) The abuse of Catholic School teachers is borderline shameful. Our church teaches social justice and spares no opportunity to jam it down our throats (not saying we don't deserve it from time to time). Until it comes time for them to hire teachers. Then it's a calling and the teachers are paid dirt. When I served on a Catholic School board in Chicago, starting teachers qualified for food stamps .. and that in one of the wealthier communities in Chicago. When I spoke with our principal about it, his comment was that it was a calling and that "we're thankful most of these are second jobs and women." I asked if we wanted to say that in front of his teachers, who probably would have sued them if they heard it.

3) The abuse of the system comes with tenure. I know of no other profession where you have a job for life, no matter how good or bad you are. Our teachers at our grade school are up for tenure after four years. Burned out or not, there's nothing you can do about them if they don't perform. Period. Likewise, 30 years in and teachers can retire at 55 to 60 with very strong benefits. I know of few other circumstances where a high quality professional can retired in his or her mid-50s, pursue other employment and still pull down a full pension before 65.

4) Our experiences were a mixed bag, despite being in a high-tax, good reputation suburban Chicago suburb. Both of our children were adopted from Eastern Europe and had severe learning disabilities. Our grade school was an embarrassment to public education in America. The LD specialist sought to teach LD students only because she would get fewer students. Our District was drawn in a way that it pulled in Hispanic students. OK, but an LD class at our grade school had six ESL students and my daughter, who is Russian and had a very different set of issues. When we wanted adjustments, one of the District Officers told us, "wouldn't we all like that." Suffice to say, her tone changed when she faced the real threat from an LD parent of a "No Child Left Behind" style lawsuit.

5) By contrast, our public high school was about as good as a school gets in dealing with LD students. They were incredible and made investments in doing for their pupils everything they could. I never saw a more caring and concerned group of teachers in my life. They were so strong that the vast majority of the kids that went in went on to some form of higher education. These teachers all probably are making more than $100,000 a year, plus benefits. And they're worth every dime of it, and then some. The proof is in the performance. In my children's case, both are now enrolled in a four-year national university and one is 1.5 years away from a degree.

6) Most of this group who posts in here knows what it takes to raise and educate children. I'd gather than most of us are very committed parents who spent more than a few long, long, long hours in teachers meetings, homework, reteaching things that seem so obvious but aren't and generally being there when it mattered. I'm also guessing that most of us stood up for our children when we needed to but we also held them accountable. Educational failures happen because accountability is not at the core of what one does. Parents have to hold themselves accountable to do the best they can and get the resources they need when they can't. Schools must be held accountable as much for LD as they are for football and other sports and the kids have to understand why we do this. In effect, it's easier to blame than it is to fix.

[🏀]

Now, I'm going to go drive in to school (in the summer) to work in the IT department getting student iPads ready for next year.  Y'all can have fun posting here while you sit at your desks in your office jobs.

Just post from the iPads, duh. Fricking teachers, I tell ya.

[🏀]

I think what this argument boils down to is the same argument with any tenure/pension system. You have the good that deserve it, the bad that don't deserve it and the ugly that game the system.

It's the ugly that makes the rest of the working people angry. I can do through my district and easily pull 10+ teachers that will retire before 60, clearing $110k a year that haven't changed their curriculum or really gave a unnatural carnal knowledge since 2000 when I got to high school.

However, I won't be able to find the teachers that actually made an impact on me because they've been district hopping trying to grind out a career with decent pay.

It's a broken system, but that's well-known.

[dgies9156]

It sounds like it is that giving blacks rights that were equal to those that whites enjoyed since our nations birth is what caused social unrest in the minority community. That allowing them to eat in the same restaurant as whites caused social unrest.

You are misinterpreting the Great Society.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Public Accommodations Act of 1965 were strictly civil rights issues designed to put teeth in the Constitutional Guarantees that all of us enjoy. Combined with the Voting Rights Act of 1965, these are the core civil rights laws that exist at the federal level.

The Great Society arose out of Lyndon Johnson's War on Poverty. The Great Society was a 1965 speech at the University of Michigan that evolved into a legislative program.  It was a series of federal laws that created Medicaid, housing, food stamps, educational opportunities, job training, block grants and a host of other programs to alleviate suffering and poverty. Most of these occurred after the civil rights laws became law as there is no way President Johnson could have raided the federal Treasury the way he did and get Civil Rights passed simultaneously. Ev Dirksen and Richard Russell never would have tolerated it -- even from LBJ!

Keep in mind that the Civil Rights programs were aimed at our African American brothers' and sisters' grievances. The poverty programs in the Great Society were aimed at all America and grew out of LBJ's early in life experience with poverty.

[MU82]

I've deliberately waited until now to weigh in on this one. My experiences are in some ways very different, having been exposed to the best and the worst of the public and private systems.

1) The reason Catholic schools almost consistently perform more efficiently than public schools is twofold. First is, as another poster noted, they don't deal with special needs children. Your standardized tests will be much higher when and if you eliminate the negative outliers from your pupil base. Secondly, Catholic and other private schools are more efficient because they don't have the administrative overhead of a public system. Take money from the federal or state government or exist on public dole and you have compliance issues, reporting requirements and anti-discrimination expectations. Those of you who think the federal government will ultimately give vouchers, no strings attached... well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you.

2) The abuse of Catholic School teachers is borderline shameful. Our church teaches social justice and spares no opportunity to jam it down our throats (not saying we don't deserve it from time to time). Until it comes time for them to hire teachers. Then it's a calling and the teachers are paid dirt. When I served on a Catholic School board in Chicago, starting teachers qualified for food stamps .. and that in one of the wealthier communities in Chicago. When I spoke with our principal about it, his comment was that it was a calling and that "we're thankful most of these are second jobs and women." I asked if we wanted to say that in front of his teachers, who probably would have sued them if they heard it.

3) The abuse of the system comes with tenure. I know of no other profession where you have a job for life, no matter how good or bad you are. Our teachers at our grade school are up for tenure after four years. Burned out or not, there's nothing you can do about them if they don't perform. Period. Likewise, 30 years in and teachers can retire at 55 to 60 with very strong benefits. I know of few other circumstances where a high quality professional can retired in his or her mid-50s, pursue other employment and still pull down a full pension before 65.

4) Our experiences were a mixed bag, despite being in a high-tax, good reputation suburban Chicago suburb. Both of our children were adopted from Eastern Europe and had severe learning disabilities. Our grade school was an embarrassment to public education in America. The LD specialist sought to teach LD students only because she would get fewer students. Our District was drawn in a way that it pulled in Hispanic students. OK, but an LD class at our grade school had six ESL students and my daughter, who is Russian and had a very different set of issues. When we wanted adjustments, one of the District Officers told us, "wouldn't we all like that." Suffice to say, her tone changed when she faced the real threat from an LD parent of a "No Child Left Behind" style lawsuit.

5) By contrast, our public high school was about as good as a school gets in dealing with LD students. They were incredible and made investments in doing for their pupils everything they could. I never saw a more caring and concerned group of teachers in my life. They were so strong that the vast majority of the kids that went in went on to some form of higher education. These teachers all probably are making more than $100,000 a year, plus benefits. And they're worth every dime of it, and then some. The proof is in the performance. In my children's case, both are now enrolled in a four-year national university and one is 1.5 years away from a degree.

6) Most of this group who posts in here knows what it takes to raise and educate children. I'd gather than most of us are very committed parents who spent more than a few long, long, long hours in teachers meetings, homework, reteaching things that seem so obvious but aren't and generally being there when it mattered. I'm also guessing that most of us stood up for our children when we needed to but we also held them accountable. Educational failures happen because accountability is not at the core of what one does. Parents have to hold themselves accountable to do the best they can and get the resources they need when they can't. Schools must be held accountable as much for LD as they are for football and other sports and the kids have to understand why we do this. In effect, it's easier to blame than it is to fix.

As a non-Catholic who is a strong believer in public schools, I found this to be very interesting. Thanks for telling us your story.

[warriorchick]

No, without qualifying for subsidies (which they would not), there is no Obamacare plan for $450.

For an individual?  If so, they have really gone up since I looked a couple of years ago.  I thought that wasn't supposed to happen.

[MU82]

For an individual?  If so, they have really gone up since I looked a couple of years ago.  I thought that wasn't supposed to happen.

Obamacare is flawed and needs to be fixed.

Either that, or the Comrade In Chief can stomp his feet and make threats because Congress can't seem to deliver his campaign promise of healthcare for "EVERYONE" that will be better and less expensive than the ACA.

[Lennys Tap]

Obamacare is flawed and needs to be fixed.

Either that, or the Comrade In Chief can stomp his feet and make threats because Congress can't seem to deliver his campaign promise of healthcare for "EVERYONE" that will be better and less expensive than the ACA.

If by "flawed" you mean a bill of goods based on lies and sold on lies that were known to be lies all along it was "flawed".

[MU82]

If by "flawed" you mean a bill of goods based on lies and sold on lies that were known to be lies all along it was "flawed".

OK, you get the last word. Not gonna argue it here.

[Jockey]

You are misinterpreting the Great Society.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Public Accommodations Act of 1965 were strictly civil rights issues designed to put teeth in the Constitutional Guarantees that all of us enjoy. Combined with the Voting Rights Act of 1965, these are the core civil rights laws that exist at the federal level.

The Great Society arose out of Lyndon Johnson's War on Poverty. The Great Society was a 1965 speech at the University of Michigan that evolved into a legislative program.  It was a series of federal laws that created Medicaid, housing, food stamps, educational opportunities, job training, block grants and a host of other programs to alleviate suffering and poverty. Most of these occurred after the civil rights laws became law as there is no way President Johnson could have raided the federal Treasury the way he did and get Civil Rights passed simultaneously. Ev Dirksen and Richard Russell never would have tolerated it -- even from LBJ!

Keep in mind that the Civil Rights programs were aimed at our African American brothers' and sisters' grievances. The poverty programs in the Great Society were aimed at all America and grew out of LBJ's early in life experience with poverty.

Thanks for the correction, dgies.

I should have known better.

[Jockey]

"So pre-existing conditions are a tough deal. Because you are basically saying from the moment the insurance, you’re 21 years old, you start working and you’re paying $12 a year for insurance, and by the time you’re 70, you get a nice plan. Here’s something where you walk up and say, 'I want my insurance.' It’s a very tough deal, but it is something that we’re doing a good job of."



Huh????

[Eldon]

Well then...it appears we made it this far without hearing from an actual teacher! Lemme fix that. (Thanks TAMU for telling me this was going on)

1. Teachers are underpaid.  This is due to the historical view of teaching, in that it was a a career reserved for young, single, and other-wise unemployable women.  Persons in other careers with similar levels of education and experience make more than teachers.  (Note: this is all on average, and rich suburban schools do not have the same problem that urban schools do...heck even Illinois teachers make way more than Wisconsin)

2. Teachers work about the same as everyone else, maybe more.  I take home more work than my wife (who is a Physical therapist), but she works longer hours at work.  She gets more actual days off than me, even when you add in my summer break.  And lots of teachers work second (umpiring) and third (summer IT) jobs in addition to coaching (cross country), attending professional development, planning curriculum, and grad school during the summer.  I feel busier now than during the school year.

3. Teachers deal with children.  Lots of them at the same time.  All day. 

4. I teach at a private Catholic voucher school in an urban area.  I get paid ~35K, and I won't go over 50K when I get my Masters.  The top of the pay scale is less than 60K.  I'll never make 50% of my wife's salary. How can you expect to attract and retain qualified individuals when the pay is so scanty?  Public schools have the same problem. I actually wouldn't make much, if any, more if I moved to Racine Unified or even Oak Creek.

5. On the voucher/choice debate: Choice is a great idea in principle, but if voucher schools aren't held to the same high standards as public, it will fail.   I know that the standards at my school aren't what is expected of public school teachers and it's like pulling teeth to get my colleagues to implement proven effective teaching strategies because the older ones are very used to not being accountable for anything. 

6. Teachers suffer from a problem that no other career has: everyone thinks they can be a teacher because they have spent so much time observing and modeling teachers. There's some mystery about what your doctor actually does and there's some question about the math an engineering used to make something work, but teaching, "that's easy."  No one would EVER suggest that you can be a lawyer without a law degree or license, but there are states (Wisconsin among them) that don't require a teaching degree to teach in certain situations.  This is especially true in private and voucher schools not held to the same requirements as public.

7. Teaching actually does weed out most of the bad teachers.  The rate of teachers leaving the profession is absurd, something like 40-50% leave in the first five years (I will survive being part of this statistic on day one of this year!)  There's two reasons for this: teaching is hard, and teaching doesn't pay well.  The fact that teaching is hard weeds out many of the bad teachers.  Unfortunately, teaching not paying well weeds out good teachers too.

Now, I'm going to go drive in to school (in the summer) to work in the IT department getting student iPads ready for next year.  Y'all can have fun posting here while you sit at your desks in your office jobs.

Really?  Are you sure about that? 

No snark here.  I'm genuinely curious if you are sure about that.   

I ask because one of my good friends was a teacher at Pius high school and, IIRC, he made appx $32k with a masters degree his first year there.  He would complain, saying that if he were at an MPS high school he would make appx $48k.

[dgies9156]

5. On the voucher/choice debate: Choice is a great idea in principle, but if voucher schools aren't held to the same high standards as public, it will fail.   I know that the standards at my school aren't what is expected of public school teachers and it's like pulling teeth to get my colleagues to implement proven effective teaching strategies because the older ones are very used to not being accountable for anything. 

Some thoughts on vouchers:

1) If the country were ever to go to vouchers for private and Roman Catholic schools nationally, it would dramatically change private education in America.  There is no way the Catholic system in the United States as it stands today could be publicly funded and continue to operate as it is.

2) Most Catholic Schools in the United States operate a preference system for admissions. Active Parish members as well as other Catholic Parishes get preference on grounds that their communities built and support the school. Catholics theoretically get a lower tuition due to this support. We Catholics call this priorities. Federal and State governments call it discrimination. If vouchers ever go nationwide, look for more push on this point.

3) As I noted before, "No Child Left Behind" is the exception rather than the norm in Catholic Schools and Private Schools. As a consequence, LD programs, programs dealing with behaviorally challenged students and other students with special needs tend to be dealt with by encouraging students to attend public schools. At some point, again, that smacks of discrimination and runs afoul of the Americans With Disabilities Act. Don't be surprised if this becomes an issue as well.

4) Compliance will become huge. At Chancery Offices across the nation, expect a construction boom to build office space to house Catholic Bureaucrats to deal with the reporting requirements and compliance burden.

5) At some point, don't be surprised if the NEA and AFT begin unionizing Catholic School teachers. I know this is not a big issue in Wisconsin, but in Illinois.... If you're getting vouchers, the sales pitch is, "you're doing the work but getting the pay...." If that ever happens, it will be fascinating to see the Church's response, since Catholic Leaders have ALWAYS supported the right of workers to organize!

6) Vouchers will be a horrible tax on most property owners. Advocates of Catholic and other private education claim there is a cost-savings associated with vouchers. I don't see it. The fixed assets are already in place and the incremental loss of students due to vouchers won't save any administrative costs nor would teacher costs be dramatically reduced in most cases. So what happens? Taxes rise to pay for it! Yikes.

Final thought: We Catholics have done it ourselves, through our contributions and hard work for more than 1.5 centuries. We educate Americans from pre-school through PhDs mostly on our own. Do we really want the federal government to be a very vocal education partner. That should worry every advocate of Catholic education.