COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")

[Vander Blue Man Group]

We have different definitions of “rampant”. Six (6) people have died in S Dakota from Covid19 (They did have an outbreak at a meat packing plant, I think - but I think it was contained) and they’ve pretty much stayed open for business.

Statistics are funny. If you have a penny and I give you another one you’ve increased your net worth by 100%!!! But you still only have 2 cents. To me rampant is New York City and to a lesser extent Detroit, Chicago, and other cities.

Statistics aren't funny.  It's even less funny when people like you ignore and try to twist data.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

We don’t need to argue about the facts.

Here is a nytimes tool that goes to the county level.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/new-york-coronavirus-cases.html

Lenny by your own definition, NYC is not the most ‘rampant’ in NY state. NO is more rampant than NYC.  And your impression is right, dtw is relatively better off. But not to the county in SD that has an outbreak-they are relatively similar.   

How did it get there anyway?

You want to see rampant. Check out rural counties in GA.  Not quite NY State bad, but worse than NYC. 

Edit.  This points out that we really need to get better in our data collection now that this is lasting longer.  Need active cases so we collectively know when current outbreaks are worrisome.

[Sir Lawrence]

Oktoberfest cancelled.

[tower912]

As I said, the ban (still in place) is for large retailers.

Re fishing in a motorized boat, it’s possible she’s given in and revised her previous order.

Fishing from shore or in a non-motorized boat.   Picking up seeds, paint, stain today.   Gun ranges and stores essential.   Construction, departments other than grocery in big box stores, non-essential.
So perhaps the ban didn't go far enough?   

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I think it's a real problem that there is an attempt to divide people with incorrect facts/data.  At least we were all Jesuit educated and look for multiple sources before making conclusions.  I fear Jesuit's didn't get to enough people though...

While the last four/five weeks were the most unprecedented in my life.  I think the next 4 will be more interesting & challenging.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Article on the undercount of deaths related to COVID
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_NN_p_20200421&instance_id=17817&nl=morning-briefing&regi_id=98421546&section=topNews&segment_id=25631&te=1&user_id=65badcb7c07b4cd4815fe5e758510381

[Pakuni]

As I said, the ban (still in place) is for large retailers.

Re fishing in a motorized boat, it’s possible she’s given in and revised her previous order.

No, Lenny, what you wrote was "You're all in with Governors who won’t allow their citizens to buy seeds, paint or go fishing (by themselves)."
You added qualifiers about large retailers  - which still isn't true, because delivery and curbside  - and motorized boats, because you couldn't find any governor who'd done all you claimed, much less more than one governor.
Debating the value of the ongoing restrictions is fair game and even valuable, but making things up to attack others should be beneath you.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Abso-freaking-lutely.   Besides the fact it is right thing to do, three political reasons.
1.  Get it right, demonstrate competence and compassion and have demonstrably better numbers than the rest of the world.
2.   Demonstrate statesmanship.   'In a time like this, protecting the people of this country is more important than my re-election.'
3.  Neutralize your opponent by offering to put him to work, that it is all hands on deck.

Do that and it is Reagan-Mondale redux.

The evidence shows that this is in fact the case. Those governors that showed leadership--and just for you ChicosDad, on both sides--have had big bumps in popularity and job approval ratings. Governors like DeSantis not so much.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

60 million new folks unemployed, economy and citizens locked down, flights shut down from China and Europe, etc., etc., etc., - but temporarily suspending immigration in the midst of this is vilifying the “others”.

You’re all in with Governors who won’t allow their citizens to buy seeds, paint or go fishing (by themselves) but temporarily closing our borders is vilifying the “others”. Sheesh.

I am all for Governors being aggressive in shutting things down who may have to back off such regulations later. Better than opening things up too early which I fear is what is happening in Florida and Georgia. I think midwestern governors, both Democratic and Republican, are handling this way better than those from the south.

And yes, shutting down legal immigration is an awful, awful reaction to this.  These are people who would actually have jobs and help to stimulate our economy when things do open back up.

That's a good thing.

[StillAWarrior]

As I said, the ban (still in place) is for large retailers.

Re fishing in a motorized boat, it’s possible she’s given in and revised her previous order.

Actually, this is one of the strange things in the Michigan order:  kayaking and conoeing are allowed, motorboats are not.  I have no doubt that the rationale behind this is that the focus for exempted activities is that they are physical and more focused on getting exercise.  But, I do think that it doesn't make sense to prohibit an activity that could be safely done while complying with social distancing guidelines.  It's good that governors recognize the importance of physical exercise and well-being and have created exemptions to allow that.  I think some could do a better job of recognizing the importance of psychological well-being and allow other activities that can be done safely.

[GooooMarquette]

We have different definitions of “rampant”. Six (6) people have died in S Dakota from Covid19 (They did have an outbreak at a meat packing plant, I think - but I think it was contained) and they’ve pretty much stayed open for business.

Statistics are funny. If you have a penny and I give you another one you’ve increased your net worth by 100%!!! But you still only have 2 cents. To me rampant is New York City and to a lesser extent Detroit, Chicago, and other cities.

Yes, we do. I will stick with the dictionary, and you can stick with numbers that look big. "Rampant:" flourishing or spreading unchecked. The rates are increasing much more rapidly ("spreading unchecked") in areas like ND, SD and the like than in NY.

Also, before they had the outbreak at the meat packing plant in SD, their numbers were already 3x as high as in MN; now they are 4x. And even without a specific site like the plant, ND, IA and WI also have far higher numbers than MN. In other words, your theory about rural areas away from international airports isn't supported by the numbers, and wasn't even before the plant outbreak. Frenn's and others have also done a good job of showing that your urban/rural divide doesn't hold up...

[pbiflyer]

Actually, this is one of the strange things in the Michigan order:  kayaking and conoeing are allowed, motorboats are not.  I have no doubt that the rationale behind this is that the focus for exempted activities is that they are physical and more focused on getting exercise.  But, I do think that it doesn't make sense to prohibit an activity that could be safely done while complying with social distancing guidelines.  It's good that governors recognize the importance of physical exercise and well-being and have created exemptions to allow that.  I think some could do a better job of recognizing the importance of psychological well-being and allow other activities that can be done safely.

I suspect that it is like here in Florida, where people in motor boats raft up together.  It isn't the actual boating per se, it is just the activities resulting from it.

[GooooMarquette]

Actually, this is one of the strange things in the Michigan order:  kayaking and conoeing are allowed, motorboats are not.  I have no doubt that the rationale behind this is that the focus for exempted activities is that they are physical and more focused on getting exercise.  But, I do think that it doesn't make sense to prohibit an activity that could be safely done while complying with social distancing guidelines.  It's good that governors recognize the importance of physical exercise and well-being and have created exemptions to allow that.  I think some could do a better job of recognizing the importance of psychological well-being and allow other activities that can be done safely.

I wonder if it's partly based on the difference between what people "could" do while social distancing vs what people "will" do while social distancing?

Take the beaches in Jax. They were opened, with the caveat that people still adhere to social distancing guidelines. Any quick google search will show that people aren't adhering to those guidelines.

Now apply it to boats. Kayaks and canoes typically are made for one or two people max, and (even in normal times) are often used by people who want to get away from others. Motorized boats, on the other hand, generally hold more people, and are often used for activities with others - fishing, waterskiing, hanging around drinking beer, etc. (I said "often" because I know there are exceptions...but broad and difficult-to-enforce rules have to look at generalities because there simply aren't enough DNR officials to enforce social distancing.) Are different rules justified? I don't know. Still, I can see why a distinction might be drawn between kayaks/canoes and motorized boats.

[Pakuni]

I wonder if it's partly based on the difference between what people "could" do while social distancing vs what people "will" do while social distancing?

Take the beaches in Jax. They were opened, with the caveat that people still adhere to social distancing guidelines. Any quick google search will show that people aren't adhering to those guidelines.

Now apply it to boats. Kayaks and canoes typically are made for one or two people max, and (even in normal times) are often used by people who want to get away from others. Motorized boats, on the other hand, generally hold more people, and are often used for activities with others - fishing, waterskiing, hanging around drinking beer, etc. (I said "often" because I know there are exceptions...but broad and difficult-to-enforce rules have to look at generalities because there simply aren't enough DNR officials to enforce social distancing.) Are different rules justified? I don't know. Still, I can see why a distinction might be drawn between kayaks/canoes and motorized boats.

Yeah, I think this is it.
Boating generally is a group activity, and most boats don't allow for reasonable distancing. Kayaking, paddleboarding, etc., are usually solo activities.
For the guy who wants to take his boat out alone to cast for some largemouth, that sucks. But I'm not sure law enforcement has the resources, or should expend the resources is has at this time, counting the number of people on boats.

[StillAWarrior]

I wonder if it's partly based on the difference between what people "could" do while social distancing vs what people "will" do while social distancing?

Take the beaches in Jax. They were opened, with the caveat that people still adhere to social distancing guidelines. Any quick google search will show that people aren't adhering to those guidelines.

Now apply it to boats. Kayaks and canoes typically are made for one or two people max, and (even in normal times) are often used by people who want to get away from others. Motorized boats, on the other hand, generally hold more people, and are often used for activities with others - fishing, waterskiing, hanging around drinking beer, etc. (I said "often" because I know there are exceptions...but broad and difficult-to-enforce rules have to look at generalities because there simply aren't enough DNR officials to enforce social distancing.) Are different rules justified? I don't know. Still, I can see why a distinction might be drawn between kayaks/canoes and motorized boats.

Honestly, I think the primary distinction is what I posited:  physical activity.  I don't necessarily agree with that distinction.  I think there are plenty of people who have bass boats and would happily go out alone (or with someone from their house) and fish.  I don't really have a big issue with this aspect of the Michigan order, but I also am not a big fan of banning activities because people might violate the limits that you set.

[pbiflyer]

In Michigan large retailers are banned from selling seeds, paint, garden supplies, etc.. If you have a motor on your boat you are not allowed to go on any lakes for fishing, etc..

Lottery tickets sales continue. Some things are more essential than others.

Here is a response from a Michigan nurse on FB:

RESPONSE FROM A MICHIGAN NURSE TO PEOPLE PROTESTING ABOUT "STAY AT HOME"

I have seen 4 patients die, 5 intubated, 2 re-intubated, witnessed family consent to make 2 more patients DNR, sweat my butt off during COPT, titrated so many drips to no avail, watched vent settings increase to no avail. We are exhausted and at a total loss. Some of you people have never done everything you can to save someone and watched them die, and it shows….

You wanna complain because the Garden Aisle is closed? Your garden doesn’t matter. If killing your plants would bring back my patients, I would pillage the crap out of your “essential” garden beds..

Upset because you can’t go boating, in Michigan? You wanna tell my patient’s daughter (who was sobbing as she said goodbye to her father over the PHONE) about your FIRST-WORLD problems.
Upset because you can’t go to your cottage up north? Your cottage…your second property… used for leisure. My coworkers can’t even stay in their regular homes. Most have been staying in hotels and dorms not able to see their spouses or babies.

All of these posts, petitions online to evade “TYRANNY” it’s all such bullcrap. I’m sorry you’re bored and have nothing to do but bitch and moan. You wanna pick up a couple of hours for me?

Yeah, didn’t think so.

I wouldn’t trust most of you with patient care anyway. Not just because of the selfish lack of humanity your posts exude, but because most of those posts and petitions are so riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors, that it makes me question your cognitive capacity.

Shout out to my coworkers, the real MVPs.

[MarquetteDano]

So it looks like Georgia will be opening up.  Right in the CDC's own backyard.  So hopefully an analysis can be done to see the impacts of doing so.  I am not an epidemiologist to know whether Georgia can model what the impacts would be on the rest of the country (whether it is a good model in terms of cities, rural areas, etc.) but it will be interesting.

Let's just hope that if cases stabilize and deaths stabilize that we can open things up elsewhere,  and if cases/deaths surge we don't go into denial mode that we should still open up.  This again, assumes Georgia is a decent model for elsewhere.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1188606

Shocked to see that there are cases linked to the inane decision to hold the elections in Wisconsin.

[Lennys Tap]

Here is a response from a Michigan nurse on FB:

RESPONSE FROM A MICHIGAN NURSE TO PEOPLE PROTESTING ABOUT "STAY AT HOME"

I have seen 4 patients die, 5 intubated, 2 re-intubated, witnessed family consent to make 2 more patients DNR, sweat my butt off during COPT, titrated so many drips to no avail, watched vent settings increase to no avail. We are exhausted and at a total loss. Some of you people have never done everything you can to save someone and watched them die, and it shows….

You wanna complain because the Garden Aisle is closed? Your garden doesn’t matter. If killing your plants would bring back my patients, I would pillage the crap out of your “essential” garden beds..

Upset because you can’t go boating, in Michigan? You wanna tell my patient’s daughter (who was sobbing as she said goodbye to her father over the PHONE) about your FIRST-WORLD problems.
Upset because you can’t go to your cottage up north? Your cottage…your second property… used for leisure. My coworkers can’t even stay in their regular homes. Most have been staying in hotels and dorms not able to see their spouses or babies.

All of these posts, petitions online to evade “TYRANNY” it’s all such bullcrap. I’m sorry you’re bored and have nothing to do but bitch and moan. You wanna pick up a couple of hours for me?

Yeah, didn’t think so.

I wouldn’t trust most of you with patient care anyway. Not just because of the selfish lack of humanity your posts exude, but because most of those posts and petitions are so riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors, that it makes me question your cognitive capacity.

Shout out to my coworkers, the real MVPs.

If you can explain to me how not allowing fisherman on lakes in boats with motors would have saved any of those lives I’ll gladly change my opinion. I don’t think the two have anything to do with one another.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Here is a response from a Michigan nurse on FB:

RESPONSE FROM A MICHIGAN NURSE TO PEOPLE PROTESTING ABOUT "STAY AT HOME"

I have seen 4 patients die, 5 intubated, 2 re-intubated, witnessed family consent to make 2 more patients DNR, sweat my butt off during COPT, titrated so many drips to no avail, watched vent settings increase to no avail. We are exhausted and at a total loss. Some of you people have never done everything you can to save someone and watched them die, and it shows….

You wanna complain because the Garden Aisle is closed? Your garden doesn’t matter. If killing your plants would bring back my patients, I would pillage the crap out of your “essential” garden beds..

Upset because you can’t go boating, in Michigan? You wanna tell my patient’s daughter (who was sobbing as she said goodbye to her father over the PHONE) about your FIRST-WORLD problems.
Upset because you can’t go to your cottage up north? Your cottage…your second property… used for leisure. My coworkers can’t even stay in their regular homes. Most have been staying in hotels and dorms not able to see their spouses or babies.

All of these posts, petitions online to evade “TYRANNY” it’s all such bullcrap. I’m sorry you’re bored and have nothing to do but bitch and moan. You wanna pick up a couple of hours for me?

Yeah, didn’t think so.

I wouldn’t trust most of you with patient care anyway. Not just because of the selfish lack of humanity your posts exude, but because most of those posts and petitions are so riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors, that it makes me question your cognitive capacity.

Shout out to my coworkers, the real MVPs.

I get it.  And I have seen a ton of similar posts, but they aren't helpful at furthering discussion any more than the protests are.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1188606

Shocked to see that there are cases linked to the inane decision to hold the elections in Wisconsin.

I would actually look at the glass half full on this if cases are not surging so close to the two week mark.  It shows we can open things up to some degree if everyone remains smart and vigilant about social distancing.

[Pakuni]

I get it.  And I have seen a ton of similar posts, but they aren't helpful at furthering discussion any more than the protests are.

Exposing the general public to the realities of the virus and what people are dealing with to fight it may reframe the discussion around what's important, and maybe even introduce the protestors to a little perspective. That's definitely helpful.
Perhaps it can be done a little gentler, with more of an aim toward educating and less "you're an idiot," but it may at least lead some to question exactly why they're so very upset about a temporary ban on fishing from a motorized boat.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I would actually look at the glass half full on this if cases are not surging so close to the two week mark.  It shows we can open things up to some degree if everyone remains smart and vigilant about social distancing.

Well we know it’ll be far more than 7 cases. The problem with the decision to hold that election was it was a clear effort to suppress votes and it also put people in unnecessary danger. It could have been avoided.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

If you can explain to me how not allowing fisherman on lakes in boats with motors would have saved any of those lives I’ll gladly change my opinion. I don’t think the two have anything to do with one another.

This was just explained in multiple other posts.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Well we know it’ll be far more than 7 cases. The problem with the decision to hold that election was it was a clear effort to suppress votes and it also put people in unnecessary danger. It could have been avoided.

Yes we do.  We also know that people will catch this no matter what we do.  We need a system to detect spread and immunity, methods to slow it down, and mechanisms to ensure our hospital system doesn't get overwhelmed.

While I dont agree with the decision to hold an election, we can learn that maybe there is somewhere in between lock it down and the old days utilizing a better system once the virus is in control in some places.