ESPN 1000 (Chicago) On Why No One Wants The Illinois Job

[Tugg Speedman]

On the Waddle and Silvy show (ESPN 1000 Chicago) this morning they discussed why Shaka Smart and Brad Stevens turned down Illinois.  I tuned-in near the end so let me paraphrase and guess about the parts I missed.  Please correct me if you heard all of it.

Essentially recruiting Chicago is a cesspool.  High School Coaches, AAU coaches, street agents and parents/relative "expect something" from local schools that regularly recruit Chicago.  Waddle and Silvy called it "murky to recruit Chicago."  So this is why no one wants Illinois and Depaul before them.  This also explains why no Illinois schools are in the tourney.

Waddle and Silvy further speculated that it is easier to "pick off" a recruit here and there from outside Chicago (see Anthony Davis at Kentucky or Steve Taylor at MU) then to be part of that region and constantly have to "feed" the apparatus that is local schools recruiting Chicago.

Thoughts on this?

[🏀]

Waddle and Silvy have no clue. Really a waste of time listening to them.

Chicago market makes you work.

[TJ]

My thought is that two guys who had previously indicated they wouldn't leave their current position deciding not to leave their current position does not mean that "No One Wants the Illinois Job".

[GGGG]

Myopic thinking by potential candidates.  Illinois doesn't have to solely recruit Chicago to be successful.

[RubyWiscy]

I know nothing, but it makes some sense.  MU has talked for years about how important a recruiting connection to Chicago is yet being it is in our backdoor, the number of players it lands from Chicago is historically small IMO.

[MerrittsMustache]

My thought is that two guys who had previously indicated they wouldn't leave their current position deciding not to leave their current position does not mean that "No One Wants the Illinois Job".

Buzz and Anthony Grant were also rumored but that went no where. There was also the Reggie Theus rumor that I believe was started by Reggie Theus.

[TJ]

Buzz and Anthony Grant were also rumored but that went no where. There was also the Reggie Theus rumor that I believe was started by Reggie Theus.

If you add Buzz, that makes 3 people who have indicated previously that they wouldn't leave their current position deciding not to leave their current position.  Still no big deal.  I don't know much about Anthony Grant or their pursuit of him.  Maybe they finally had their first real "no thanks".

[🏀]

My thought is that two guys who had previously indicated they wouldn't leave their current position deciding not to leave their current position does not mean that "No One Wants the Illinois Job".

They are down to #6 on their list.

[TJ]

They are down to #6 on their list.

But #2 in terms of realistic possibilities.  None of this should have been public so I understand thinking the AD has done a poor job, but in reality they had to ask ask Shaka and Stevens even knowing it was likely they would decline.

[🏀]

But #2 in terms of realistic possibilities.  None of this should have been public so I understand thinking the AD has done a poor job, but in reality they had to ask ask Shaka and Stevens even knowing it was likely they would decline.

#6 is still #6.

AD isn't doing the search, a firm is instead.

[TallTitan34]

When you fire Bruce Weber, you go for Shaka Smart.
When you go for Shaka Smart, you get turned down and end up with egg on your face.
When you end up with egg on your face, you go for Brad Stevens.
When you go for Brad Stevens, you get shot down again and have to settle for choice #6.

Don't settle for choice #6.

[RushmoreAcademy]

I think Waddle and Silvy are off base.  Whoever comes in would have their work cut out for them, for sure, because those that came before them did a terrible job of recruiting Chicago, but a good coach/recruiter could get it done.  It may seem like a little bit of an uphill battle, but I think more of the case is that IL is going for the top couple of coaches and overvaluing it's program.  There are simply better programs that the top couple of coaches would like to step into.
I keep hearing them talk about how it's a top 10-15 program, and that's just not right.  Their best bet is to get a Reggie Theus type of guy, who has had NBA experience coaching, has shown that he can win in college, and knows Chicago.

[TJ]

So the lesson here is to always lowball yourself so you don't look stupid if your most desired but also unlikely candidates choose not to take the job.

[🏀]

So the lesson here is to always lowball yourself so you don't look stupid if your most desired but also unlikely candidates choose not to take the job.

The lesson is you don't let it get out that you asked Shaka and Stevens if you have doubts that they will pass.

[TJ]

I really hope that years from now when MU is looking for their next coach they make sure to limit the search parameters to DIII assistants and high school coaches so that they can be sure to get the #1 guy on their list.

[Wade for President]

When you fire Bruce Weber, you go for Shaka Smart.
When you go for Shaka Smart, you get turned down and end up with egg on your face.
When you end up with egg on your face, you go for Brad Stevens.
When you go for Brad Stevens, you get shot down again and have to settle for choice #6.

Don't settle for choice #6.

Well done Tall T.

[brewcity77]

The truth is Illinois is a stepping-stone job. Everyone who's been there in the past 20 years has used it as a stepping stone to get somewhere else. And neither Smart nor Stevens need a stepping stone. If the jobs came open, they could walk in to UCLA, Indiana, Kansas...pretty much any elite job in the nation would let them write their own check. So why go to another stepping stone? You have to rebuild not only that program, but your reputation. If it doesn't work out in 3-5 years, suddenly that stepping stone was just a step down and when the big boys start calling, your name isn't on the list.

And another truth is that Marquette is a stepping-stone job. It was for the past two successful coaches we had before Buzz. The only way a stepping stone job, those jobs that are in the 10-25 range in the country, becomes a destination job is if you happen to have the right guy at the right time. That's why it's so important that we keep Buzz. Because he's the right guy for Marquette at the right time. Just like Coach K was at Duke, or Izzo at MSU. Get a good coach that considers your stepping stone job to be a destination and you can turn it into something special.

That's what Illinois should really be looking for. Not the next hot coaching candidate, but someone that really wants to be there and is grateful for the opportunity, and will pay it off by busting his ass to make the program the best it can possibly be. Anyone who only has their eyes on the next prize will end up breaking your heart in the end.

[TallTitan34]

Well done Tall T.

Eh, I stole it from a caller on the radio haha.  I'm only passing it along.

[Canadian Dimes]

I know nothing, but it makes some sense.  MU has talked for years about how important a recruiting connection to Chicago is yet being it is in our backdoor, the number of players it lands from Chicago is historically small IMO.

Are u kidding me??? Guys like Ellis, Rivers, wade, mcneil? Etc!!!  Prolly over the years 20% of our recruits have come from chicago, that is a huge number.  Even a bigger number in the sense that a very large % of those kids have been really good!!

[TJ]

The truth is Illinois is a stepping-stone job. Everyone who's been there in the past 20 years has used it as a stepping stone to get somewhere else. And neither Smart nor Stevens need a stepping stone. If the jobs came open, they could walk in to UCLA, Indiana, Kansas...pretty much any elite job in the nation would let them write their own check. So why go to another stepping stone? You have to rebuild not only that program, but your reputation. If it doesn't work out in 3-5 years, suddenly that stepping stone was just a step down and when the big boys start calling, your name isn't on the list.

And another truth is that Marquette is a stepping-stone job. It was for the past two successful coaches we had before Buzz. The only way a stepping stone job, those jobs that are in the 10-25 range in the country, becomes a destination job is if you happen to have the right guy at the right time. That's why it's so important that we keep Buzz. Because he's the right guy for Marquette at the right time. Just like Coach K was at Duke, or Izzo at MSU. Get a good coach that considers your stepping stone job to be a destination and you can turn it into something special.

That's what Illinois should really be looking for. Not the next hot coaching candidate, but someone that really wants to be there and is grateful for the opportunity, and will pay it off by busting his ass to make the program the best it can possibly be. Anyone who only has their eyes on the next prize will end up breaking your heart in the end.

+1

[Tugg Speedman]

The truth is Illinois is a stepping-stone job. Everyone who's been there in the past 20 years has used it as a stepping stone to get somewhere else. And neither Smart nor Stevens need a stepping stone. If the jobs came open, they could walk in to UCLA, Indiana, Kansas...pretty much any elite job in the nation would let them write their own check. So why go to another stepping stone? You have to rebuild not only that program, but your reputation. If it doesn't work out in 3-5 years, suddenly that stepping stone was just a step down and when the big boys start calling, your name isn't on the list.

And another truth is that Marquette is a stepping-stone job. It was for the past two successful coaches we had before Buzz. The only way a stepping stone job, those jobs that are in the 10-25 range in the country, becomes a destination job is if you happen to have the right guy at the right time. That's why it's so important that we keep Buzz. Because he's the right guy for Marquette at the right time. Just like Coach K was at Duke, or Izzo at MSU. Get a good coach that considers your stepping stone job to be a destination and you can turn it into something special.

That's what Illinois should really be looking for. Not the next hot coaching candidate, but someone that really wants to be there and is grateful for the opportunity, and will pay it off by busting his ass to make the program the best it can possibly be. Anyone who only has their eyes on the next prize will end up breaking your heart in the end.

Brew,

How many jobs are not stepping stone jobs?  I think it is less about 10 in the country.


UNC
Duke
UCLA
Kansas (unless compared to UNC)
Indiana
Michigan State
Kentucky
Georgetown
Syracuse
Uconn

Possible not stepping stone jobs

Louisville
Ohio State

[TJ]

Brew,

How many jobs are not stepping stone jobs?  I think it is less about 10 in the country.


UNC
Duke
UCLA
Kansas (unless compared to UNC)
Indiana
Michigan State
Kentucky
Georgetown
Syracuse
Uconn

Possible not stepping stone jobs

Louisville
Ohio State

I think that was his point.

[Tugg Speedman]

I get that ... I was looking for the names

[MerrittsMustache]

The truth is Illinois is a stepping-stone job. Everyone who's been there in the past 20 years has used it as a stepping stone to get somewhere else. And neither Smart nor Stevens need a stepping stone. If the jobs came open, they could walk in to UCLA, Indiana, Kansas...pretty much any elite job in the nation would let them write their own check. So why go to another stepping stone? You have to rebuild not only that program, but your reputation. If it doesn't work out in 3-5 years, suddenly that stepping stone was just a step down and when the big boys start calling, your name isn't on the list.

Illinois coaches in the last 20 years:
- Lou Henson retired after 22 seasons at U of I
- Lon Kruger left for the NBA
- Bill Self left for his "dream job" at Kansas
- Bruce Weber got fired

I wouldn't go so far as to call Illinois a stepping-stone job.

And another truth is that Marquette is a stepping-stone job. It was for the past two successful coaches we had before Buzz. The only way a stepping stone job, those jobs that are in the 10-25 range in the country, becomes a destination job is if you happen to have the right guy at the right time. That's why it's so important that we keep Buzz. Because he's the right guy for Marquette at the right time. Just like Coach K was at Duke, or Izzo at MSU. Get a good coach that considers your stepping stone job to be a destination and you can turn it into something special.

Michigan State has had exactly 2 head coaches since 1976 (Heathcote and Izzo). I wouldn't consider MSU a stepping-stone either.

[LAZER]

I would imagine if Buzz is truly that upset, he would at least listen to Illinois.  And for that reason this whole thing doesn't really worry me.  If Buzz is really that bent out of shape about his relationships at MU and wants to bolt, there are certainly a lot worse places to land than Illinois.

[brewcity77]

Since Henson left, everyone at UI has either left for greener pastures or been fired. Similar to Marquette since Hank stepped down. As far as MSU, what I mean to illustrate there is that one guy can build a dynasty if it's the job they want. Heathcote was fine, but his legacy was pretty much Earvin Johnson and that's it. They are more prominent now under Izzo than they ever were before, and it's because Izzo wanted to stay. Same with Duke. They had some success before K, but he was the reason they became a premier program.

As far as true blue bloods...Kansas, UNC, Kentucky, Duke, Indiana, and UCLA are the 6 I feel are locks for that status. Louisville, Georgetown, Michigan State, Texas, and maybe Syracuse are in that next tier. Schools like Marquette, Illinois, Memphis, UConn, Wisconsin, and Florida are the types that could be destinations for the right person. Also...KU may have been a stepping stone for Roy, but only to another blue blood. It's not like he'd have left for any job but UNC.

[MerrittsMustache]

Since Henson left, everyone at UI has either left for greener pastures or been fired. Similar to Marquette since Hank stepped down. As far as MSU, what I mean to illustrate there is that one guy can build a dynasty if it's the job they want. Heathcote was fine, but his legacy was pretty much Earvin Johnson and that's it. They are more prominent now under Izzo than they ever were before, and it's because Izzo wanted to stay. Same with Duke. They had some success before K, but he was the reason they became a premier program.

As far as true blue bloods...Kansas, UNC, Kentucky, Duke, Indiana, and UCLA are the 6 I feel are locks for that status. Louisville, Georgetown, Michigan State, Texas, and maybe Syracuse are in that next tier. Schools like Marquette, Illinois, Memphis, UConn, Wisconsin, and Florida are the types that could be destinations for the right person. Also...KU may have been a stepping stone for Roy, but only to another blue blood. It's not like he'd have left for any job but UNC.

But that's only 3 guys. Also, Self left for his dream job at Kansas much like Williams left for his dream job at UNC. If not for UNC opening up, Roy will still be at KU and Self would likely still be in Champaign.

[brewcity77]

And for Marquette, since Hank, it's only 5 (pre-Buzz). Majerus, Dukiet, and Deane were dumped, O'Neill and Crean used us as a stepping stone. And either way, once is chance, twice is coincidence, and 3 times is a trend. Tell me, who views Illinois as a destination? Who dreams at night of Champaign? Not many. There are some out there, but if they were a destination, they wouldn't have a vacancy anymore. And when your top choices all say no, the odds are the guys that are left are probably just looking for the next move up the ladder. That's why they should look either for a top assistant that might view UI as his best shot or a guy like Theus that actually wants the job, because it's becoming clear most people don't.

[MU82]

Weber didn't see Illinois as a stepping-stone job. That was his dream job. But fans/donors/alums/etc considered him a nightmare so he had to go. As usual, loyalty only goes one way. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that it is. And the same would be true at Marquette with Buzz should the team inexplicably go downhill. We want Buzz to be loyal to us but we wouldn't be loyal to him if he turns into Bob Dukiet. (He won't; just making a point.)

If Illinois really is a stepping-stone job -- as it clearly was for Kruger and Self -- so what? A coach isn't going to go to the NBA or to one of the truly elite college programs unless he does a kick-ass job at Illinois. Kruger and, especially, Self absolutely left the program in considerably better shape than when he arrived. Self built a national finalist team (as coached by Weber). Kruger didn't try real hard to recruit Chicago, but Self did a nice job there. He wasn't afraid to take the job because of the Chicago "cesspool." I doubt Buzz would go there, but if he was interested, I doubt he would be intimidated by Chicago's prep/AAU scene.

If I'm an Illinois fan, sure, I'd love it if the next Roy Williams or Coach K would come there and stay forever. But that's probably unrealistic. Maybe I'd get lucky with an Izzo -- a guy who just loves the program so much he'd never leave. Short of that, I'd be perfectly happy to have another Bill Self, a young but established guy on the way up. If he turns into the next Izzo, fan-freakin-tastic. If he turns into the next Self, that would be great, too.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

There are about 6-10 "royalty jobs" in college hoops.

Every other coaching job is a stepping stone unless you find the perfect match (Bo Ryan for example).

The best MU can do is to be good enough that the only reason to leave is for a top 10 job, or an NBA gig.

MU prob. isn't there yet, but it's not an unreasonable goal.

[wildbill sb]

Hey, if Buzz (TX boy) bolts for SMU and his homies, let's bring Bruce Weber back to his roots!

[🏀]

Hey, if Buzz (TX boy) bolts for SMU and his homies, let's bring Bruce Weber back to his roots!

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

[brewcity77]

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

+1

I have a very short list of names I'd actually want. Bruce may be a nice guy and decent recruiter, but I don't think he's much of a coach.

[TallTitan34]

Bruce Weber has no control over anything.  His players walk all over him.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

+1

I have a very short list of names I'd actually want. Bruce may be a nice guy and decent recruiter, but I don't think he's much of a coach.

Totally agree. Weber is an assistant

[muwarrior69]

Obviously Butler and VCU are destination jobs.

[MU82]

There are about 6-10 "royalty jobs" in college hoops.

Every other coaching job is a stepping stone unless you find the perfect match (Bo Ryan for example).

The best MU can do is to be good enough that the only reason to leave is for a top 10 job, or an NBA gig.

MU prob. isn't there yet, but it's not an unreasonable goal.

Excellent point. No real college basketball follower ever would suggest that Wisconsin is a "destination job." But Bo has made it his fiefdom. He is comfortable there, he wins and the folks there like him. One would think he can stay there as long as he produces, and one would think that scenario is fine with him.

Maybe the next Illinois coach will settle in just like that. Maybe Buzz and Marquette will have that same kind of situation. Or maybe not. The only sure thing is that none of us can control any of this, so we should try real hard to not let it consume us.

[shoothoops]

Money, success, comfortability.

Successful coaches can make good money and have good job security at non BCS league schools and mid majors.  VCU and Butler have been Final Four caliber.  They get to do this by dominating weaker leagues.  More job security and good money.  Sought after coaches can be more choosy.

Money has gotten a lot better at successful mid majors.  

[lab_warrior]

Obviously Butler and VCU are destination jobs.

That, and they stayed because the internet message board posters emailed them their support, and their President and AD weren't in cahoots, hatching a meticulously crafted master plan to undermine the basketball program to shift the focus to academics. 

Sure, that sounds about right. 

[wojosdojo]

I would imagine if Buzz is truly that upset, he would at least listen to Illinois.  And for that reason this whole thing doesn't really worry me.  If Buzz is really that bent out of shape about his relationships at MU and wants to bolt, there are certainly a lot worse places to land than Illinois.

I'm oblivious to why Buzz is mad. Is it the fans?

[TallTitan34]

Buzz and Anthony Grant were also rumored but that went no where. There was also the Reggie Theus rumor that I believe was started by Reggie Theus.

At this rate, Reggie Theus is going to be the best candidate if they keep getting shot down.

[bilsu]

Sometines it is just time for coaches to move on. Fans usually have unrealistic expectations and teams success often goes up and down. Back in Febraury everyone on the Louisville site wanted to run Pitino out of town. He was past his prime and could no longer coach according to them.

[MuMark]

Weber was very interested in the MU job when Crean left.

[MU82]

Bruce Weber would not be a good hire.

I got to know him well and like him as a person. Very honorable man. But he is not the coach today's kids want to play for. He would be perfect to return to SIU, where they would love him, or to be a top assistant for a major program.

Thankfully, Buzz isn't going anywhere so as far as MU is concerned, Weber is a non-factor. I still say we should try to steal Jerrance Howard from Illinois if he isn't immediately retained by the new coach there. Incredible recruiter with head-coaching potential down the road.

[4everwarriors]

Bruce Weber would not be a good hire.

I got to know him well and like him as a person. Very honorable man. But he is not the coach today's kids want to play for. He would be perfect to return to SIU, where they would love him, or to be a top assistant for a major program.

Thankfully, Buzz isn't going anywhere so as far as MU is concerned, Weber is a non-factor. I still say we should try to steal Jerrance Howard from Illinois if he isn't immediately retained by the new coach there. Incredible recruiter with head-coaching potential down the road.

Besides Rivers and Weber, who else you tight with? Just axing.

[ATWizJr]

Heard that the large buy out got in the way of Buzz taking the Oklahoma or A and M job last year. Also that SMU projects Coach's salary at a max of one million bucks. Also that Benford might be a candidate.

[MU82]

Besides Rivers and Weber, who else you tight with? Just axing.

Legit question. I sound like quite the name-dropper. I don't like when others do that, so I should stop.

Not really "tight" with either, but I can have a friendly conversation with either. I got to know Rivers quite well when we both were at MU and later talked to him dozens of times in my job as a sportswriter. I covered Illinois during Weber's first several years there. I was never a sportswriter who became friends with my subjects, but I did have many whose company I enjoyed (and I hope the feeling was mutual).

[🏀]

Legit question. I sound like quite the name-dropper. I don't like when others do that, so I should stop.

Not really "tight" with either, but I can have a friendly conversation with either. I got to know Rivers quite well when we both were at MU and later talked to him dozens of times in my job as a sportswriter. I covered Illinois during Weber's first several years there. I was never a sportswriter who became friends with my subjects, but I did have many whose company I enjoyed (and I hope the feeling was mutual).

Brian Hanley? Is that you?

[MU82]

No, but ... name-dropper alert ... Brian is a friend of mine.

[🏀]

No, but ... name-dropper alert ... Brian is a friend of mine.

Disappointed.  Print journalist yourself?

[MU82]

You know ... I might just have to change my name for this board. I'd say I have a big mouth (which would be true), but it's my fingers dancing on the keyboard that are gonna get me in trouble.

No more name-dropping!

[wyzgy]

Are u kidding me??? Guys like Ellis, Rivers, wade, mcneil? Etc!!!  Prolly over the years 20% of our recruits have come from chicago, that is a huge number.  Even a bigger number in the sense that a very large % of those kids have been really good!!

times have a changed dude-the big shots command a aaaahhem, some "respect".  in shicogo, respect means green baby.  from the parents to the coaches, these guys expect some "respect" and the coaches, unless they don't mind steppin into a pile of steamin excrement right off the bat and continue to walk with that on their shoes for a few years, don't want to have that stink.  think living with mr. maymon for awhile...well there are a lot of mr. maymons out there.  point is, is it worth walking around with crap on you're shoes in a "stepping stone" school as many are saying here although i disagree some about that and MU.  MU can be an end game for some if they so choose and i think if buzz get's the support here(and the "respect"), he is here to stay