High graduation rate OR basketball success

[Skatastrophy]

Internet polls are always accurate 

[Skatastrophy]

Man... who would've thought that pancakes would be neck-and-neck with graduating recruits?

I really would have thought there would have been more bitching about the omission of French Toast as an option. 

[Brewtown Andy]

I believe someone said something about pancakes?

[Dry White Toast]

As of 10:02 Central on 5/22, only 6 of 31 people have given an honest opinion (or love pancakes less than bball).

REALLY?  "Moderate" success???  If you are an MU hoops freak, (and judging by your participation in this forum you are), how can you not vote for option 2?

I don't want MU to become Cinci under Huggy, but puh-lease.  If we win a national title nobody would care how many seniors that year graduate.  And if we are successfull enough, we start turning players to the NBA in 2 or 3 years.

[bma725]

REALLY?  "Moderate" success???  If you are an MU hoops freak, (and judging by your participation in this forum you are), how can you not vote for option 2?

Simple, some of us love MU the institution even more than we love MU hoops, and we don't want to sacrifice the integrity or reputation of the institution for a banner and rather ugly trophy.

[Aughnanure]

Moderate basketball success and continued high graduation rates.
Give me 30 win seasons, graduating takes a backseat to success
I love pancakes
   
Really? thats it? thats a way to limited number of options. I think you can have the best of both worlds if done correctly....and no one pays attention to graduation rates when you are just "moderate"

[rocky_warrior]

[ChicosBailBonds]

As of 10:02 Central on 5/22, only 6 of 31 people have given an honest opinion (or love pancakes less than bball).

REALLY?  "Moderate" success???  If you are an MU hoops freak, (and judging by your participation in this forum you are), how can you not vote for option 2?

I don't want MU to become Cinci under Huggy, but puh-lease.  If we win a national title nobody would care how many seniors that year graduate.  And if we are successfull enough, we start turning players to the NBA in 2 or 3 years.

It all depends on your definition of "moderate success".   If what we've done the last 8 years is considered moderate success plus graduating almost all our players, no NCAA violations, etc.....then I'll take that in a heartbeat rather than end up on the police blotters, or the bottom of some list every year that shows we aren't there as an academic institution first.

Do you think people respect schools like UCLA or Duke winning the national title over schools like Memphis or UNLV?  Of course they do.   Schools with solid academics can be successful and are respected much more than those that appear to just be a NBA minor league.

[Brewtown Andy]

Moderate basketball success and continued high graduation rates.
Give me 30 win seasons, graduating takes a backseat to success
I love pancakes
   
Really? thats it? thats a way to limited number of options.

Sounds like someone's the president of the Waffle Society of America.

[VegasWarrior77]

Sounds like someone's the president of the Waffle Society of America.

I thought Brett Favre held that title.

[Tugg Speedman]

We have moderate sucess and a high graduation rate now.  So, those that answered that way are happy to see us lower ranked and exit early in the tourney every year and have no problem if we continue this trend?  I don't think so.

Regarding the "respect" for a school ...

   *How about Georgetown?  During Papa Thompson days they had some "marginal characters" on the team.  Anyone want to make the case that their academic reputation suffered? 

   *UCLA has had its "issues" in the past. 

   *Duke had the Lacrosse thing. 

   *Did Mu's reputation suffer because of Oliver Lee or Tom Copa? 

   *Did Brent Moss diminish Madison's academic reputation in your eyes? 

   *How about Eric Bieminey (sp?) flashing gang signs after a touchdown in Boulder a few years back. 

   *Is Kentucky's academic reputation now tumbling because of Calipari and especially since he signed a criminal named John Wall as a PG this week?  I'll guess not.

The schools that have that reputation as "criminal schools" (UNLV, Memphis, Cincy, "The U", Louisville) get it because of the PRECEPTION of their ACADEMIC standing.  Troubled FB and BB players only reinforce it, not create it.  Schools with a good academic reputation (Georgetown) shake it off no matter how many FBI agents are assigned to watch their players.



A better question is how many run-ins with the law would you tolerate for a Uconn/Louisville type of program?

[NavinRJohnson]

What would I have to choose from only those two options? The answer is both.

[Nukem2]

What would I have to choose from only those two options? The answer is both.

Correct.  This poll is obviously flawed by limited options.....

[Brewtown Andy]

I thought Brett Favre held that title.

BOOM~!

[jficke13]

The choices aren't mutually exclusive. We could be a competitive team in the tourney every year without sacrificing to the Huggins idol.

[Warriors4ever]

The questions may be flawed, but they are the questions that were posted.  So given those choices, I would still take option #1 over option #2, for the reason articulated by another poster - I love the institution even more than the basketball.  Now if waffles were in the mix...........

[IAmMarquette]

I thought Brett Favre held that title.

well played.

[Pakuni]

We have moderate sucess and a high graduation rate now.  So, those that answered that way are happy to see us lower ranked and exit early in the tourney every year and have no problem if we continue this trend?  I don't think so.

Regarding the "respect" for a school ...

   *How about Georgetown?  During Papa Thompson days they had some "marginal characters" on the team.  Anyone want to make the case that their academic reputation suffered? 

   *UCLA has had its "issues" in the past. 

   *Duke had the Lacrosse thing. 

   *Did Mu's reputation suffer because of Oliver Lee or Tom Copa? 

   *Did Brent Moss diminish Madison's academic reputation in your eyes? 

   *How about Eric Bieminey (sp?) flashing gang signs after a touchdown in Boulder a few years back. 

   *Is Kentucky's academic reputation now tumbling because of Calipari and especially since he signed a criminal named John Wall as a PG this week?  I'll guess not.

The schools that have that reputation as "criminal schools" (UNLV, Memphis, Cincy, "The U", Louisville) get it because of the PRECEPTION of their ACADEMIC standing.  Troubled FB and BB players only reinforce it, not create it.  Schools with a good academic reputation (Georgetown) shake it off no matter how many FBI agents are assigned to watch their players.



A better question is how many run-ins with the law would you tolerate for a Uconn/Louisville type of program?

Good post. It's very unlikely that Marquette's academic reputation - or that of most other schools - will suffer by letting in a few subpar students to play basketball, much less a recruiting scandal (not that I'd ever like to see one ... just saying).

Some more examples:

- Michigan's academic reputation survived Ed Martin and a current 46 percent grad rate for hoops players

- Cal remains an elite school, despite Todd Bozeman and a current 30 percent grad rate for its basketball team

- Illinois remains highly regarded, despite the Deon Thomas saga

- Northwestern athletics had a major gambling problem, didn't hurt their academic reputation a bit

- Ditto for Boston College and Tulane, both of which have had point-shaving scandals

I guess the bottom line is that MU's academic reputation is not in the least reliant on the graduation rate of a handful of basketball players. I'm happy to see MU players graduate, but whether they do or not has zero bearing on the value of my diploma.

Now I will retire to my kitchen to make some flapjacks.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Michigan's academic reputation survived, but the academic reputation of their athletes to this day took a huge hit.  Michigan alums were very upset about the hit the school took.

Same with Cal and it caused the school to take huge reforms as a result.  They've also never been in that "elite air" in hoops since that happened.

The other examples as well are being viewed from the outside and not from the perspective of how their alums felt, the damage done internally.

As an IU alum, I was incredibly pissed off at what Sampson did to the hoops program as were most IU alums.  The school was tarnished and took a big hit. Eventually that will go away, but it will stick with the alums for a long time because it affects them more directly.

I'd also disagree with you on Tulane, they never fully recovered after Hod Rod Williams.  The program was complete disbanded for four years.   

[bma725]

The schools that have that reputation as "criminal schools" (UNLV, Memphis, Cincy, "The U", Louisville) get it because of the PRECEPTION of their ACADEMIC standing.  Troubled FB and BB players only reinforce it, not create it.  Schools with a good academic reputation (Georgetown) shake it off no matter how many FBI agents are assigned to watch their players.

You might want to think again about including Miami with those other schools, because pretty much it's the exact opposite.  The U is a world class university.  Tier 1 and on the edge of the Top 50 according to US News(ahead of Marquette).  They've got a Top 50 Business School, Top 50 Medical School, Top 75 Law school etc.

The image of Hurricane athletics on the other hand has killed the perception of academics among the larger public. Because of the behavior of their athletes(specifically football), people think that Miami is a cakewalk university, that it's basically a 4 year JUCO, that anyone can get in to school etc.  The University struggles every day to overcome the image of the place as a football factory when that is clearly not the case.

[Nukem2]

You might want to think again about including Miami with those other schools, because pretty much it's the exact opposite.  The U is a world class university.  Tier 1 and on the edge of the Top 50 according to US News(ahead of Marquette).  They've got a Top 50 Business School, Top 50 Medical School, Top 75 Law school etc.

The image of Hurricane athletics on the other hand has killed the perception of academics among the larger public. Because of the behavior of their athletes(specifically football), people think that Miami is a cakewalk university, that it's basically a 4 year JUCO, that anyone can get in to school etc.  The University struggles every day to overcome the image of the place as a football factory when that is clearly not the case.

Agreed.  What is interesting is that academics for the jocks at Miami were in question decades ago.  Not a recent thing.  But, the school itself is quite fine.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You might want to think again about including Miami with those other schools, because pretty much it's the exact opposite.  The U is a world class university.  Tier 1 and on the edge of the Top 50 according to US News(ahead of Marquette).  They've got a Top 50 Business School, Top 50 Medical School, Top 75 Law school etc.

The image of Hurricane athletics on the other hand has killed the perception of academics among the larger public. Because of the behavior of their athletes(specifically football), people think that Miami is a cakewalk university, that it's basically a 4 year JUCO, that anyone can get in to school etc.  The University struggles every day to overcome the image of the place as a football factory when that is clearly not the case.

Cincinnati is the same way.  People don't realize it but Cincinnati is a VERY good university academically but the perception of the common man is that it's a joke because of the crap that basketball team has done over the years.

I'll bet that few people on this very board know that Cincinnati is ranked as one of the top 25 public schools in America.  It has a law school, medical school, fantastic school of business, etc but people crap on it's reputation constantly because of the nonsense that 12 guys have brought to it year in and year out.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I certainly want upstanding student athletes with intentions to graduate, but guys Marquette does not have the reputation of the schools mention in this thread. Not even close.

[Chili]

Cincinnati is the same way.  People don't realize it but Cincinnati is a VERY good university academically but the perception of the common man is that it's a joke because of the crap that basketball team has done over the years.

I'll bet that few people on this very board know that Cincinnati is ranked as one of the top 25 public schools in America.  It has a law school, medical school, fantastic school of business, etc but people crap on it's reputation constantly because of the nonsense that 12 guys have brought to it year in and year out.

it is a tier 3 school.

[Tugg Speedman]

it is a tier 3 school.

I agree, Cincy is not that good a school.  It is not even the best school in Cincy.  Xavier is better

[ChicosBailBonds]

it is a tier 3 school.

Depends on what service you use. 

The Center For Measuring Research Performance ranks UC in the top 25 in the nation.

http://mup.asu.edu/research.html

These are people that do this for a living, not a magazine that decided to self proclaim itself the guru of school rankings once each year.  Kudos to US News and World report for filling a void, but I always found it quite hilarious how much stock people put into their ratings when it's not even remotely at the core of what they do.  There are organizations and research entities that all they do is this type of thing.  The Gourman Reports as an example. 

[Tugg Speedman]

These are people that do this for a living, not a magazine that decided to self proclaim itself the guru of school rankings once each year.  Kudos to US News and World report for filling a void, but I always found it quite hilarious how much stock people put into their ratings when it's not even remotely at the core of what they do.  There are organizations and research entities that all they do is this type of thing.  The Gourman Reports as an example. 

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/items/3125

Tier 3 - it's a four year community college. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/items/3125

Tier 3 - it's a four year community college. 

You just proved my point, people putting stock into USNews, a magazine that does this vs real research entities that truly evaluate schools.

Just look at the major CEOs in this country from UC compared to say....MU.

I never understood why people put stock in the US News report except for the fact that it's in the mainstream.  They are not "experts" on college and universities but because they publish a once a year publication on this, they have become the de facto publication that people reference. 

Why people don't reference organizations that do this 24/7/365 I never understood, but that's how it works in America apparently. 

[Pakuni]

You just proved my point, people putting stock into USNews, a magazine that does this vs real research entities that truly evaluate schools.

Just look at the major CEOs in this country from UC compared to say....MU.

I never understood why people put stock in the US News report except for the fact that it's in the mainstream.  They are not "experts" on college and universities but because they publish a once a year publication on this, they have become the de facto publication that people reference. 

Why people don't reference organizations that do this 24/7/365 I never understood, but that's how it works in America apparently. 

I'm not a huge fan of the US News rankings, mainly because, IMO, they heavily favor of larger, public universities than smaller, private schools.
That said, the most important factor in their calculations is peer rating, i.e. what academicians at other schools think of your school.
So it's a good bet that, because Cincy is ranked a Tier 3 institution, professors and administrators elsewhere don't think terribly highly of the school.
Again, I don't love their rankings, but let's not act as if they somehow have less expertise than some think tank.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm not a huge fan of the US News rankings, mainly because, IMO, they heavily favor of larger, public universities than smaller, private schools.
That said, the most important factor in their calculations is peer rating, i.e. what academicians at other schools think of your school.
So it's a good bet that, because Cincy is ranked a Tier 3 institution, professors and administrators elsewhere don't think terribly highly of the school.
Again, I don't love their rankings, but let's not act as if they somehow have less expertise than some think tank.

True, but it only represents 25% of the total ranking.  Besides, I'm not sure I'd want a rival to judge how good another school is potentially.  It may work, it may not.  Hard to say.  But 75% of the score comes from outside of the peer review process.




http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-colleges/2008/08/21/how-we-calculate-the-rankings.html?PageNr=2

[Tugg Speedman]

Let's get back to the question at hand ...

Does/can a "criminal" FB or BB program change the academic reputation of a university.  I say no. 

We have cited many examples above where well respected academic reputations were not affected by "criminal behavior."  Further, when a university gets defined by its FB or BB program's bad bahavior it is because their were existing questions about its reputation and the FB or BB programs action only reinforces it.  It does not create it.

Anyone disagree and want the make the case that one's diploma can be tarnished by too many weed smokin', gun totin', illegitimate baby makin', power forwards?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Let's get back to the question at hand ...

Does/can a "criminal" FB or BB program change the academic reputation of a university.  I say no. 

We have cited many examples above where well respected academic reputations were not affected by "criminal behavior."  Further, when a university gets defined by its FB or BB program's bad bahavior it is because their were existing questions about its reputation and the FB or BB programs action only reinforces it.  It does not create it.

Anyone disagree and want the make the case that one's diploma can be tarnished by too many weed smokin', gun totin', illegitimate baby makin', power forwards?

Sure it can, a reputation is often not based in facts.  Miami (FL) is a good school, but has a bad academic reputation by many because of the football team.  USC is a very very good school, but has taken a hit for many years out here because of the football team.   UNLV took a horrible pounding in the 1990's with their reputation.

I assume by reputation you mean what people think about the school, what a lay person might think. 

Look at any segment in sports, happens all the time.  Dallas Cowboys during the 1990's had some bad character guys and that sullied the entire team because of how about 5 guys acted.  The team then had the reputation of all being criminals, etc.

So yes, it can influence a reputation.

[1990Warrior]

Depends on what service you use. 

The Center For Measuring Research Performance ranks UC in the top 25 in the nation.

http://mup.asu.edu/research.html

These are people that do this for a living, not a magazine that decided to self proclaim itself the guru of school rankings once each year.  Kudos to US News and World report for filling a void, but I always found it quite hilarious how much stock people put into their ratings when it's not even remotely at the core of what they do.  There are organizations and research entities that all they do is this type of thing.  The Gourman Reports as an example. 

Chicos,
This analysis is based on research dollars brought in and has nothing to do with the quality of the undergraduate experience at the university.  If you do not have a medical school, you are seriously handicapped in this type of analysis because NIH is the biggest source of federal funding.  It might serve as a good guide to graduate programs but that is as far as it goes.

[DomJamesToTheBasket]

I voted for pancakes. MU is more than moderately successful right now with a 100% graduation rate. I think we're on the right path.

[Tugg Speedman]

I certainly want upstanding student athletes with intentions to graduate, but guys Marquette does not have the reputation of the schools mention in this thread. Not even close.

SAN JOSE MERCURY NEWS

SunPower CEO pledges $5 million

SunPower announced that CEO Thomas Werner has pledged $5 million to the College of Engineering at his alma mater, Marquette University, to establish an endowed chair in secure and renewable energy systems. Werner earned his bachelor's degree in electrical engineering from Marquette in 1986 and was named the college's Distinguished Alumnus of the Year in 2007.

"I am honored to offer this chair to Marquette and hope that it will inspire more executives to reach out to their alma maters," said Werner. "Our hope is that the Werner Chair will create additional interest and advances in harvesting sustainable solutions.''

SunPower is a San Jose manufacturer of high-efficiency solar cells, solar panels and solar systems.

[THEGYMBAR]

I would take the last 8 years over ruining our reputation. In a perfect world I would sacrifice a small amount of graduation rate for more wins, but that is very fine line.

[dsfire]

Depends on what service you use. 

The Center For Measuring Research Performance ranks UC in the top 25 in the nation.

http://mup.asu.edu/research.html

These are people that do this for a living, not a magazine that decided to self proclaim itself the guru of school rankings once each year.  Kudos to US News and World report for filling a void, but I always found it quite hilarious how much stock people put into their ratings when it's not even remotely at the core of what they do.  There are organizations and research entities that all they do is this type of thing.  The Gourman Reports as an example. 

UC themselves quote the US News rankings, and list themselves "among the top 100 universities in the nation": http://www.uc.edu/about/ucfactsheet.html#usnwr

It appears that as of a couple of years ago, the average ACT score for incoming freshmen was 24: http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/07/undergrad/profiles/cincinnati1.htm.  I tried finding that data on the UC site itself, but the only ACT scores I saw were broken down by program.

I don't doubt that the programs you listed are good (the first link ranks some of them within the top 5-10 in the nation), but the overall numbers don't seem to match up to a "top 25" undergraduate university.

[dsfire]

Let's get back to the question at hand ...

Does/can a "criminal" FB or BB program change the academic reputation of a university.  I say no. 

We have cited many examples above where well respected academic reputations were not affected by "criminal behavior."  Further, when a university gets defined by its FB or BB program's bad bahavior it is because their were existing questions about its reputation and the FB or BB programs action only reinforces it.  It does not create it.

Anyone disagree and want the make the case that one's diploma can be tarnished by too many weed smokin', gun totin', illegitimate baby makin', power forwards?

I'm not sure it matters.  Even if a scandal within the MU basketball program had no effect on the utility of my degree, I still would prefer to support a clean program over a shady-but-more-successful one.

[Warriors4ever]

+1

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm not sure it matters.  Even if a scandal within the MU basketball program had no effect on the utility of my degree, I still would prefer to support a clean program over a shady-but-more-successful one.

My thoughts as well

[GooooMarquette]

Mmmmmm, pancakes!