MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on January 04, 2022, 11:27:48 PM
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First off, superb win. Guys were ready to play and a curb stomping after a 'bad' loss speaks volumes to Shaka. Passing the test is absolutely right - first time in Shaka era his team has had their back a bit against the wall and they responded. Kudos.
That, said - this win in no way absolves the 'bad' loss. I keep using quotes because of course a Q2 loss in 2OT isn't objectively bad, but given what this team CAN do I think that game could very well determine our NCAA fate. This team has/had the ability to go .500 in BE play
. And Shaka did fail in his first real test of in game coaching - the end of Reg shot, the empty late possessions in OT, the no foul up 3, and the lack of imagination and failure to use his TO in the 2nd OT. A string of really terrible decisions that cost us a game we could and should have won.
But the bigger thing that drives me nuts with this board is the rush to embrace mediocrity and not update expectations based on results. Yes, at the start of the season we all thought the NCAA would be a stretch. But after the 5-0 start, winning some games we WEREN'T expected to win, you have to update your expectations! If a team is expected to go 9-9 but wins its first 9 games you don't then expect to lose the next 9 - you update. Each game is (mostly) an independent event - winning a bunch of games early in the season should have very little impact on the outcomes of games later in the season. This whole acceptance of "well, we won a bunch of games we shouldn't have so now I guess I'm fine with losing a bunch of games I didn't think we'd lose" is maddening. It's like saying 'well, I'm a C student and I unexpectedly got a A on my first test so now I guess I expect a F on my 2nd so I get a C overall " No! Now I expect a C on my 2nd, so I'll get a B overall.
At the start of the year I did not expect we would make the NCAA. But a team that can beat ILL and WV, curb stomp Prov, claw back against X and UCONN has the ability to be a NCAA team. It should be a NCAA team.
There is a cult of low expectations amongst a subset of this place.
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I wouldn't assume that people's expectations don't shift. Personally, I did adjust my expectations after the West Virginia game...a little. Because it was one game. The other 4? We barely beat two low majors, beat Illinois without Cockburn, and beat a bad Ole Miss team. It was definitely a better start than I expected and it gave me hope for a possible NIT berth but it wasn't exactly a murderer's row. Then the Bonnies and Badgers adjusted my expectation back down to about where they were and they have held par until tonight. This game marked a new ceiling for this team and it is WAY higher than anything we have seen before. That bodes very well and I hope we can build on it.
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And Shaka did fail in his first real test of in game coaching
This is wrong. Again. It wasn't his first real test, no matter how many times you claim it is.
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This is wrong. Again. It wasn't his first real test, no matter how many times you claim it is.
It was the first test of his in game coaching where the game was on the line. He played chess with McDermot and lost. Hopefully it won't be a frequent occurance. It's OK to admit that a guy we all really like.and hope brings MU long term success got one wrong. It's healthy in fact.
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It was the first test of his in game coaching where the game was on the line. He played chess with McDermot and lost. Hopefully it won't be a frequent occurance. It's OK to admit that a guy we all really like.and hope brings MU long term success got one wrong. It's healthy in fact.
So we are just gonna ignore the end of the Illinois game?
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Yes there are a gaggle on this board that have low expectations and settle for mediocrity, brought along by the constant excuse making and acceptance of Wojo-Dukiet performance.
Hopefully Shaka can continue to upgrade talent and team success
This was a good win for Shaka and the program.
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Every year, I look at the roster, take 'Marquette' out of the equation, and try to figure out what I would expect from that team if I didn't root for them. I have been consistently within 2 wins in the regular season. I would love to miss low this year. It would mean the development of the young guys was faster than I expected. And I would enjoy that very much.
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Maybe I am allowed to just enjoy the ride wherever it takes me? If that means I have low expectations in people’s eyes, so be it.
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First off, superb win. Guys were ready to play and a curb stomping after a 'bad' loss speaks volumes to Shaka. Passing the test is absolutely right - first time in Shaka era his team has had their back a bit against the wall and they responded. Kudos.
That, said - this win in no way absolves the 'bad' loss. I keep using quotes because of course a Q2 loss in 2OT isn't objectively bad, but given what this team CAN do I think that game could very well determine our NCAA fate. This team has/had the ability to go .500 in BE play
. And Shaka did fail in his first real test of in game coaching - the end of Reg shot, the empty late possessions in OT, the no foul up 3, and the lack of imagination and failure to use his TO in the 2nd OT. A string of really terrible decisions that cost us a game we could and should have won.
But the bigger thing that drives me nuts with this board is the rush to embrace mediocrity and not update expectations based on results. Yes, at the start of the season we all thought the NCAA would be a stretch. But after the 5-0 start, winning some games we WEREN'T expected to win, you have to update your expectations! If a team is expected to go 9-9 but wins its first 9 games you don't then expect to lose the next 9 - you update. Each game is (mostly) an independent event - winning a bunch of games early in the season should have very little impact on the outcomes of games later in the season. This whole acceptance of "well, we won a bunch of games we shouldn't have so now I guess I'm fine with losing a bunch of games I didn't think we'd lose" is maddening. It's like saying 'well, I'm a C student and I unexpectedly got a A on my first test so now I guess I expect a F on my 2nd so I get a C overall " No! Now I expect a C on my 2nd, so I'll get a B overall.
At the start of the year I did not expect we would make the NCAA. But a team that can beat ILL and WV, curb stomp Prov, claw back against X and UCONN has the ability to be a NCAA team. It should be a NCAA team.
There is a cult of low expectations amongst a subset of this place.
Why are you so concerned about how other people feel about the team?
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Maybe I am allowed to just enjoy the ride wherever it takes me? If that means I have low expectations in people’s eyes, so be it.
This.
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We all hope Marquette makes the NCAA Tourney. They have 1 win in the Big East. It will take a bunch more to make it.
One game at a time. I am looking forward to Friday to see what happens.
Hopefully instead of hills and valleys we will be on a mesa.
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First off, superb win. Guys were ready to play and a curb stomping after a 'bad' loss speaks volumes to Shaka. Passing the test is absolutely right - first time in Shaka era his team has had their back a bit against the wall and they responded. Kudos.
That, said - this win in no way absolves the 'bad' loss. I keep using quotes because of course a Q2 loss in 2OT isn't objectively bad, but given what this team CAN do I think that game could very well determine our NCAA fate. This team has/had the ability to go .500 in BE play
. And Shaka did fail in his first real test of in game coaching - the end of Reg shot, the empty late possessions in OT, the no foul up 3, and the lack of imagination and failure to use his TO in the 2nd OT. A string of really terrible decisions that cost us a game we could and should have won.
But the bigger thing that drives me nuts with this board is the rush to embrace mediocrity and not update expectations based on results. Yes, at the start of the season we all thought the NCAA would be a stretch. But after the 5-0 start, winning some games we WEREN'T expected to win, you have to update your expectations! If a team is expected to go 9-9 but wins its first 9 games you don't then expect to lose the next 9 - you update. Each game is (mostly) an independent event - winning a bunch of games early in the season should have very little impact on the outcomes of games later in the season. This whole acceptance of "well, we won a bunch of games we shouldn't have so now I guess I'm fine with losing a bunch of games I didn't think we'd lose" is maddening. It's like saying 'well, I'm a C student and I unexpectedly got a A on my first test so now I guess I expect a F on my 2nd so I get a C overall " No! Now I expect a C on my 2nd, so I'll get a B overall.
At the start of the year I did not expect we would make the NCAA. But a team that can beat ILL and WV, curb stomp Prov, claw back against X and UCONN has the ability to be a NCAA team. It should be a NCAA team.
There is a cult of low expectations amongst a subset of this place.
You seem to forget that you need to change expectations of who MU has played/will play based on how they have been playing. Based on the non- Conf my expectations of MU went up but so did every one of the BE teams.
I was expecting IL to be much better and UW to be much worse. Those two teams basically switched places. So saying MU should be a NCAA tourney team based on beating IL holds less water than before we played them. They don’t look to be Top 10 or even Top 25.
I expected MU to bet Ole Miss but expected to lose to WV and then follow it up with a win in the third place game.
After watching non-Conf, I expected MU to land right around 500 in Conf. Why? Because Nova, Xavier, UConn and the rest of the Big East looked to be much better than expected at the start of the season. So even though MU looked better the rest of the Big East also did. I thought MU would split with Providence but I thought Providence had a good shot of beating MU twice. I expected MU to beat Creighton at home but lose in Omaha because it is a tough place to play.
Right now, MU is one game behind my expectations. I expected MU to split with St John’s but based on their long delay I expect MU to win both. I expect MU to beat Butler twice. I expect to beat DePaul twice. I expect to beat Georgetown twice. But I also expect that we will lose one of those we shouldn’t.
My in-season expectations are developed based on the team we have. That’s not low expectations. That is expectations based on reality. I am not settling for low expectations, my expectation is that year over year MU gets better with the occasional retooling year. We should expect that MU is in the Top 5 of the Big East and if we aren’t we need to course correct. I expect ever year that we should be a tourney team with the occasional retool. We see the foundation of a great Big East team. My expectations of next year will be based on this year and what happens in the off-season.
I want my expectations to align to reality. I want my ability to evaluate a team to be fairly accurate and not based on them being my home team.
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It was the first test of his in game coaching where the game was on the line. He played chess with McDermot and lost. Hopefully it won't be a frequent occurance. It's OK to admit that a guy we all really like.and hope brings MU long term success got one wrong. It's healthy in fact.
you do realize Shaka was HC at Texas, and VCU prior? Creighton was not his first real test.
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you do realize Shaka was HC at Texas, and VCU prior? Creighton was not his first real test.
Not to mention that we've already won two 1-possession games this season and won a 2-possession game. I think Shaka probably made some coaching decisions near the end of those games that probably could be considered "tests". That trap to get the game winner against Illinois comes to mind.
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If the ball doesn't brush Kolek on his way to the floor, everybody is applauding Shaka for having his team play tough defense up 3.
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The Shaka failing his first test was a foolish thread. He has been a HC for 12 years and has earned his stripes. Yes, he cost the game on Saturday and that is on him, and such is life. I will say we are 9-6 because of Shaka and I expect he will win more games than he loses based off of coaching decisions. Speaking of coaching decisions, I fully expect to see less and less of GE as the season progresses. Last night was the perfect PT for GE, IMO.
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I'm quite the opposite. My expectations are through the roof and anyone who watches a game with me knows what happens when we fail to meet those expectations.
Look gang, I'm old enough to remember when we had a program that was a blue blood. The feeling of that March night in 1977 was something that will never leave me. It was far more gratifying than the feeling from either my Cardinals winning the World Series or the Packers becoming Super Bowl Champs. "We" won that night -- those of us who supported the program with our attendance, our support for the university and our commitment to Marquette in general. The Cardinals or the Packers could have won without "me" and "us." Not sure any college program can win without rabid support.
I want us at the top again and think we have the right coach. Games like Providence last night reinforce that view. In the beginning of the season, I was extremely optimistic but also knew we were going to have to steal a few to get in the NCAAs. We did at Illinois, West Virginia and Kansas State. We should have with Creighton and UConn. We let those games slip through our fingers. UConn was what happens when you are young and inexperienced. Creighton was what happens when the team has a collective brain cramp!
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The Shaka failing his first test was a foolish thread. He has been a HC for 12 years and has earned his stripes. Yes, he cost the game on Saturday and that is on him, and such is life. I will say we are 9-6 because of Shaka and I expect he will win more games than he loses based off of coaching decisions. Speaking of coaching decisions, I fully expect to see less and less of GE as the season progresses. Last night was the perfect PT for GE, IMO.
I really like Greg both as a player and the personality that shines when he is on camera, but he simply does not have the speed he needs to get open when the rest of the team is playing at high speed. I was hoping that he would get a couple of threes and a basket or two. There may be some matchups that will be ideal for him as a role player, but I agree that his PT will likely decrease.
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I’m programmed for lower expectations based on the last 8 years. I think the blog article showing Wojo’s shortcomings that we didn’t really exceed pre-season expectations. I’m still viewing this team as the one projected for 9th in the Big East. Although, I think they are showing to be better than that.
I am hoping that changes and am very excited about Shaka. Also, I’ve been very encouraged by how we look this year. I think we will be back to a point of having high expectations and even hoping we exceed them soon.
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If the ball doesn't brush Kolek on his way to the floor, everybody is applauding Shaka for having his team play tough defense up 3.
But the ball did brush Kolek and Shaka failed to adjust to the situation.
It's OK to say he made a mistake. Doesn't mean he's a bad coach or not the right guy. It just means he made a mistake.
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It doesn't make up for the bad losses, but we need to evaluate one game at a time this early in this group's tenure. Looking for progress and growth.
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It was the first test of his in game coaching where the game was on the line. He played chess with McDermot and lost. Hopefully it won't be a frequent occurance. It's OK to admit that a guy we all really like.and hope brings MU long term success got one wrong. It's healthy in fact.
This is simply wrong. The game was on the line against Illinois when we rallied from 12 down and when TKO made the steal and winning layup. The game was on the line when we rallied again from 12 down against Ole Miss and WVU. The game was on the line when we won at KSU.
The game was also on the line when we rallied back from double-digit deficits against Xavier and UConn to get within a single point in both games with possession but failed to take the lead.
At a bare minimum, Creighton was Shaka's 7th "test" with the game on the line, and that's if you don't count needing to overcome a deficit against New Hampshire with under 5 minutes to play, so I'd say 8th test is probably more accurate. This point is pretty indefensible, it's okay to walk it back.
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Anyone have a venn diagram of the the “low expectations”’posters and the “wojo slurpers?” That would be interesting to see….
It’s amazing how strong certain posters were saying this team will only score in the 50’s with never so much as seen a single practice or what systems shaka’s team would be playing. I think they would rather see all games played off by Kenpom ratings that actual play of the team and coaching skills.
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Point
I say it every year, the eye test does matter. There are folks on here that simply do not understand that expectations should always ne high and extremely high under a coach like Shaka. I said earlier this week, I fully expect Buzz like success and then some down the road. Watching the style they play it is going to be easy to get players. The guys saw how executing the style looks like last night and they were having a ball. Aside from Lewis taking it himself a couple of times later in the game, they were feeding off each other in the passing game. Easy baskets will become the norm at MU.
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It doesn't make up for the bad losses, but we need to evaluate one game at a time this early in this group's tenure. Looking for progress and growth.
Agree, will be interesting to visit on 2/8/2022 after MU has played seven straight games against:
Seton Hall
Villanova
Xavier
Seton Hall
Providence
Villanova
U Conn
Thats a gauntlet of a stretch.
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nyg
One thing I am confident in is that on 2/8/2022 I will not be saying is this team lacked energy or hard work. It is a tough schedule and we will see how they respond. I think by 2/1 I will not be saying we need to "steal" one or two and expectations will be they can win the game, if the shots are falling.
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Anyone have a venn diagram of the the “low expectations”’posters and the “wojo slurpers?” That would be interesting to see….
It’s amazing how strong certain posters were saying this team will only score in the 50’s with never so much as seen a single practice or what systems shaka’s team would be playing. I think they would rather see all games played off by Kenpom ratings that actual play of the team and coaching skills.
I said there would be games that MU struggled in the half court and would score in the 50's. MU has finished in the 50's twice and was in the 50's at the end of regulation against Creighton. Thank you for pointing out I was right.
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Anyone have a venn diagram of the the “low expectations”’posters and the “wojo slurpers?” That would be interesting to see….
It’s amazing how strong certain posters were saying this team will only score in the 50’s with never so much as seen a single practice or what systems shaka’s team would be playing. I think they would rather see all games played off by Kenpom ratings that actual play of the team and coaching skills.
No one to my knowledge said they would only score in the 50s. Tower and I think one other poster said there would be games we scored in 50s. And they were correct. I also wouldn't assume that people hadn't seen practices at that point or talked to people who were regularly at practice
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This is simply wrong. The game was on the line against Illinois when we rallied from 12 down and when TKO made the steal and winning layup. The game was on the line when we rallied again from 12 down against Ole Miss and WVU. The game was on the line when we won at KSU.
The game was also on the line when we rallied back from double-digit deficits against Xavier and UConn to get within a single point in both games with possession but failed to take the lead.
At a bare minimum, Creighton was Shaka's 7th "test" with the game on the line, and that's if you don't count needing to overcome a deficit against New Hampshire with under 5 minutes to play, so I'd say 8th test is probably more accurate. This point is pretty indefensible, it's okay to walk it back.
Of course. This. This Scooper finds a narrative and then beats it to a bloody death ... until he brings it back to life. Lather, rinse, repeat.
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One of my annual expectations for MUBB is to make the NCAA Tourney. This is regardless of coach, personnel, circumstances. That is an expectation, a standard, that is a constant, annually.
That doesn't mean any and every MUBB HC coach won't get a fair and reasonable opportunity to do that, and build or maintain an annual NCAA tourney team. It also doesn't mean that I lower the expectation either. That doesn't mean even the best programs don't miss the tourney once in a while.
It isn't an unreasonable annual expectation.
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Out of curiosity, is there an associated cult of high expectations?
In that cult, do the “bad losses” absolve good wins?
Is the cult of high expectations free from the shackles of having to “update expectations based on results” as referenced in the original post? If it is not free, what were the expectations of the cult of high expectations after four straight losses?
It’s all so confusing to me! I wish I knew which cult to belong to. I’m lost.
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Agree, will be interesting to visit on 2/8/2022 after MU has played seven straight games against:
Seton Hall
Villanova
Xavier
Seton Hall
Providence
Villanova
U Conn
Thats a gauntlet of a stretch.
3-4 is GREAT in that stretch. 4-3 is "we're 98% dancing" with the assumption (yes, I know, big if on the upcoming two) that puts us at 7-6 with 7 (6?) games to go (2x STJ (?), 2x Butler, DePaul, Creighton, Georgetown).
But honestly ok with 2-5 as well. That's 2 quality wins right there for the resume, but means there's some meat on that bone still to get (and hopefully, baby, ath end you got a stew cookin).
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Out of curiosity, is there an associated cult of high expectations?
In that cult, do the “bad losses” absolve good wins?
Is the cult of high expectations free from the shackles of having to “update expectations based on results” as referenced in the original post? If it is not free, what were the expectations of the cult of high expectations after four straight losses?
It’s all so confusing to me! I wish I knew which cult to belong to. I’m lost.
Sounds like you're finally ready for a cult!
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Out of curiosity, is there an associated cult of high expectations?
My expectation is another National Championship in my lifetime, because I was only 35 days old the last time we won the NC so my memory of it is a bit foggy. That probably gives about a 35-50 year window to accomplish it, and since Villanova did it twice in the past few years and we've done it before, I think it's a fair expectation.
I expect a number of steps forward and steps back along the way, so I try not to get too worked up over individual seasons or results.
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brew
I fully expect that MU will have a chance to win a NC under Shaka. It might never happen, but I believe he will have us in the conversation of teams that can win it all before he retires.
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Speaking of coaching decisions, I fully expect to see less and less of GE as the season progresses. Last night was the perfect PT for GE, IMO.
Goose, I generally have liked how Shaka has handled PT for Elliott (and, really, for all the players).
There will be games when nobody is hitting shots and we desperately need Greg on the floor. He singlehandedly made it a kinda-game against UCLA, he kept us in the Xavier game, and he was instrumental in the KSU win.
But if he's not hitting -- and perhaps even more importantly, if others are -- Shaka won't need to play him as much.
Greg actually played a great 11 minutes last night. He missed his only 2 shots but he made 4 outstanding passes that led directly to 9 points. And, as usual, he helped space the floor because the other team leaves him open at its peril.
We have had exactly 4 games in which we've made at least 35% from 3. We won all 4, including 3 of our 4 biggest victories (Miss, WV, Prov).
Next game, Shaka could need Elliott to play 25 minutes ... or only 5 ... or anything in between. It's a nice security blanket for the coach knowing he has a 45% 3-point shooter on the bench if he needs one.
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82
One thing I think we differ on; GE is not a three-point shooter. Kam Jones is a three-point shooter. Just because GE is the best of a bad bunch does not make him into Steph Curry. Hey, I would play a walk on if it gave us a better chance to win and not bashing GE. I just think there are better options more times than not. I am hoping that guys with more upside earn his minutes, simple as that.
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82
One thing I think we differ on; GE is not a three-point shooter. Kam Jones is a three-point shooter. Just because GE is the best of a bad bunch does not make him into Steph Curry. Hey, I would play a walk on if it gave us a better chance to win and not bashing GE. I just think there are better options more times than not. I am hoping that guys with more upside earn his minutes, simple as that.
No, Greg is definitely a 3 Pt shooter
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Greg is absolutely a 3 pt shooter.
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tower
We have different definitions of three point shooters. Kam Jones is the only true three point guy on the team, IMO. Very seldom will you ever see a "real" three point guy miss badly, GE misses badly on a fairly regular basis.
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Clearly.
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GE is not a three-point shooter.
You know I respect your basketball knowledge ... but that's just silly.
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tower
We have different definitions of three point shooters. Kam Jones is the only true three point guy on the team, IMO. Very seldom will you ever see a "real" three point guy miss badly, GE misses badly on a fairly regular basis.
Since you're just making up definitions, why don't you just go ahead and define "three point shooter" as "not GE". Then nobody can dispute your claim that GE is not a three point shooter.
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Greg is absolutely a 3 pt shooter.
He's also just a really great guy. Let's not limit him to one trait--I am sure he has other hobbies and interests too.
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tower
Do you think other teams draft a defense to stop GE from taking 3's? Stevek Novak, Markus Howard, Rosey...they are three-point shooters. I love Matt Carlino and do not think he was a three-point shooter, he was a shooter. Again, this goes back to expectations, I sure hope GE is not our sharp shooter next season.
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brew
I fully expect that MU will have a chance to win a NC under Shaka. It might never happen, but I believe he will have us in the conversation of teams that can win it all before he retires.
Honestly, that's why I was so excited for them to hire him. I look at Shaka, virtually the same age (44) as I am, coming off a 3-seed, and simply can't envision him not reaching another Final Four or more. I think his personality, his past success, and his proof of willingness to learn and adapt to the changes in the game have shown him to be a guy who will have long term success, and I'm excited to see him try to get that success here.
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I clearly think Kam has more upside than Greg, but GE is 14/31 from 3. I struggle labelling Kam as a three point shooter, but not Greg, when he is shooting significantly worse.
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Fluff
Kam is born three-point shooter. That spin move was big time and the shot was pure money. Greg has to be wide open and set to be effective. Great shooters do not need space and can pull the trigger in a split second. Plus, great three-point guys have crazy range. I would not be pulling for Greg to be taking shots five feet behind the line. The game has changed and every on here should know firsthand due to Howard and Rowsey. Those guys were experts, GE is better than his teammates, nothing more.
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Goose Greg shooting percentages from 3. 36.7, 41.3, 45.2, 45.2
Kam 37.3.
You are twisting definitions to make a point. Now, only someone like Curry or Markus or Rowsey, who can shoot 3's from the logo off of the dribble and defended is a 3 pt shooter? Silly. And only to justify a different point.
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tower
Justify a point? I think GE is the second best of a bad bunch of shooters, which is fine. IMO, we will see far better shooters down the road in this offense.
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We agree on that. I think some of them are already on this team. Give it another season. Assuming they come back.
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I clearly think Kam has more upside than Greg, but GE is 14/31 from 3. I struggle labelling Kam as a three point shooter, but not Greg, when he is shooting significantly worse.
And if it were only this season, I'd say, sure, it could be a fluke. But it's not. 45.5% last season, 42.8% at Marquette, and a great shooter in HS if I remember Elliott's recruiting profile correctly.
Not sure why Goose has picked this hill to die on.
We have different definitions of three point shooters. Kam Jones is the only true three point guy on the team, IMO. Very seldom will you ever see a "real" three point guy miss badly, GE misses badly on a fairly regular basis.
First, Kam has clanked plenty of 3s this season. By your definition then, he's not a 3-point shooter. Again, that's too silly for you, Goose.
BTW, I really, really like Kam and am very excited about his future. On more than one occasion, I've said on Scoop that I wouldn't be surprised if he emerges as our go-to guy. I hope, long-term, Kam puts up even better 3-point numbers than Greg has -- though 45% is a high bar -- and I have little doubt that he will be the better player. Actually, he already is a better player, and his PT reflects that.
It's OK to like both players, to want them both to succeed ... and to admit a 45% 3-point shooter is a 3-point shooter.
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82
It is like watching a guy shoot free throws, you can tell pretty quickly if the guy can shoot them or not. I feel pretty confident on how I define a three-point guy and they are specialists. I do not think Greg is a specialist.
Speaking of free throw shooting, my confidence on overall shooting stems from watching our guys shot free throws. All of them look comfortable on the line and that needs to carry over to taking shots in live action.
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82
It is like watching a guy shoot free throws, you can tell pretty quickly if the guy can shoot them or not. I feel pretty confident on how I define a three-point guy and they are specialists. I do not think Greg is a specialist.
No one said he was a specialist. It was your labelling Kam as a "three point shooter" even though he is significantly worse statistically than Greg, who you have said isn't a three point shooter. That doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Fluff
Game on the line and we need a three pointer, give me Kam seven days a week over Greg.
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I remember when Kam was shooting 22% from three after the first 4 games of the season wondering why he was shooting so much, because there were more “ugly misses” than makes. Then he went 4-6 against WVU. Kam, like Greg, like all “three point shooters” will have games like last night, and will have games where they go 0 or 1 for __. Big games are nice, don’t get me wrong, but consistency and confidence are very important in young players too.
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Get his own 3, Kam. Run a set and have Greg catch and shoot, Greg.
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I can’t believe this is still going.
There are things that can be argued. Like LeBron vs MJ or McDonald’s vs BK
Greg as a 3 pt shooter is not debateable.
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Fluff
Game on the line and we need a three pointer, give me Kam seven days a week over Greg.
I'm working really hard to keep track of Goose's changing definitions of a real "three point shooter" over the last hour or so:
- Very seldom misses badly;
- Other teams draft a defense to stop from taking threes;
- Crazy range;
- A specialist.
Notably absent: making a high percentage of three point shots.
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Guys,
Just curious, if we are a three-point shooting offense than why does Shaka not have our best weapon shooting them non stop? Aside from UCLA, in a blowout, he has not shot many three's or been that effective. I am guessing but over the past 4-5 games he is shooting on par with the rest of the team % wise.
Will add, more interested in the win last night than debating if GE is a three-point wizard. It is kind of like debating Theo John the shot blocker vs. Kur the shot blocker. Everyone has a preference in type of player they like.
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Get his own 3, Kam. Run a set and have Greg catch and shoot, Greg.
I like when Greg shoots 3s, especially from the corner. I actually consider that one of MUs highest success plays if you had to create such a metric.
I like when Kam shoots 3s, from pretty much anywhere.
I agree with the above take, I’d rather have Greg in that catch and shoot spot right now but Kam if we are talking off the dribble or a more difficult guarded/prayer 3.
Next year it’ll be Kam for both I would imagine.
As an aside, I’ve said it before but no one seems to have agreed with me then and no one probably agrees now- I actually think Justin’s 3P shot/stroke looks pretty good. The results aren’t there and we all obviously prefer he does his work in the block or with the drive, things closer to the hoop, but I can see him becoming an “effective enough” 3P shooter to compliment the rest of his game.
Kolek can truly only get better at this point but he’s a big wild card imo.
Prosper has looked much better and I really think it’ll be important for his overall game that he keeps improving, I just don’t see him ever becoming a very good/consistent 3P shooter. Serviceable to above average would really help out his other tools, make defenses have to respect him so he can effectively dribble drive.
Joplin should and I think will become an excellent 3P shooter and I think Emarion can become pretty good too.
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Guys,
Just curious, if we are a three-point shooting offense than why does Shaka not have our best weapon shooting them non stop? Aside from UCLA, in a blowout, he has not shot many three's or been that effective. I am guessing but over the past 4-5 games he is shooting on par with the rest of the team % wise.
Best weapon =/= three point shooter.
The difference here is that nobody is arguing that Kam isn't a three point shooter. I think he is. As is Greg by any reasonable definition.
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It is kind of like debating Theo John the shot blocker vs. Kur the shot blocker. Everyone has a preference in type of player they like.
Personally, I'm interested in this one too. Anybody who wants to take the "Theo was a better shot blocker" side of that debate should get the ban hammer. And I say this as someone who really liked Theo.
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StillaWarrior
Plenty on here loved Theo the shot blocker and praised him after every block into the eight row. Now, hopefully they are learning what a shot blocker looks like and how they change the game. Every Kur block the ball is in play and that is how it is supposed to be done. As stupid as the Greg debate has been, I had the same debate last two years over Theo's out of position block skills.
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Just curious, if we are a three-point shooting offense than why does Shaka not have our best weapon shooting them non stop? Aside from UCLA, in a blowout, he has not shot many three's or been that effective. I am guessing but over the past 4-5 games he is shooting on par with the rest of the team % wise.
Will add, more interested in the win last night than debating if GE is a three-point wizard. It is kind of like debating Theo John the shot blocker vs. Kur the shot blocker. Everyone has a preference in type of player they like.
It's nothing like John/Kur, and it's not a matter of preferring a certain type of player. It's you pretending that a 45% 3-point shooter isn't a 45% 3-point shooter because the 45% 3-point shooter isn't your cup of tea.
I "prefer" Kam, too. He's a better player, a good shooter, and a true freshman with great potential. But all that preferring doesn't mean that a 45% 3-point shooter isn't a 45% 3-point shooter.
It's typical Scoop stubbornness on your part. But that's cool, Goose, we've all been there.
Loved last night's game! We Are Marquette!
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Maybe I am allowed to just enjoy the ride wherever it takes me? If that means I have low expectations in people’s eyes, so be it.
Bingo.
I love watching MU hoops, and honestly have no idea where we'll finish. But I'm gonna enjoy the ride until the end...
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82
One thing I think we differ on; GE is not a three-point shooter. Kam Jones is a three-point shooter. Just because GE is the best of a bad bunch does not make him into Steph Curry. Hey, I would play a walk on if it gave us a better chance to win and not bashing GE. I just think there are better options more times than not. I am hoping that guys with more upside earn his minutes, simple as that.
I agree that GE is not a 3-pt shooter, but more-so a guy that shoots 3’s. He is better from 3 than Kolek, better than Lewis too, but GE is not necessarily a go-to guy from the 3-spot. Jones is, IMO. And of course, at the rec, I was. 😉
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As an aside, I’ve said it before but no one seems to have agreed with me then and no one probably agrees now- I actually think Justin’s 3P shot/stroke looks pretty good. The results aren’t there and we all obviously prefer he does his work in the block or with the drive, things closer to the hoop, but I can see him becoming an “effective enough” 3P shooter to compliment the rest of his game.
I agree that he has a decent stroke and that his 3-pt shot can be an asset, in limited circumstances. Like if another team is zoning us and blanketing guys like Greg and Kam on the perimeter and we need to open things up. But when his midrange and inside games are so effective and efficient, I certainly don't want him camping outside the arc or looking for threes against man-to-man.
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tower
Justify a point? I think GE is the second best of a bad bunch of shooters, which is fine. IMO, we will see far better shooters down the road in this offense.
I like how the thread started with someone saying based on the current team we should raise our expectations and that people with low expectations suck, yet we are bashing the team because they are a bunch of crappy shooters. I wonder why people's expectations for this year are tempered.
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I like how the thread started with someone saying based on the current team we should raise our expectations and that people with low expectations suck, yet we are bashing the team because they are a bunch of crappy shooters. I wonder why people's expectations for this year are tempered.
Scoop needs less dentists and more optometrists. It's collective vision is cross eyed.
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We're all spoiled.
For years, we had Markus Howard, who could jack a three-pointer up from mid-court and hit.
Before that, we had Andrew Rowsey and Matt Carlino, both of whom were not afraid to jack it up from the hash marks and swish it.
They couldn't play defense to save their lives. Now we have defense and we're looking for Markus.
Gang, if we get a guard who can play defense and hit with the proficiency of Markus, our burger boy will be a lottery pick.
What I liked about Providence was we "finally grew a pair." After years of watching Wojo's Wingmen race down the floor and jack a three, we now have some guards who can drive the middle, penetrate and pass off or jam the ball down the bucket. Yeah, we get tempted by the three but, hopefully, we know we won't win going down and playing hero ball (and not the good kind featuring Tyler and Herro).
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Guys,
Just curious, if we are a three-point shooting offense than why does Shaka not have our best weapon shooting them non stop? Aside from UCLA, in a blowout, he has not shot many three's or been that effective. I am guessing but over the past 4-5 games he is shooting on par with the rest of the team % wise.
Will add, more interested in the win last night than debating if GE is a three-point wizard. It is kind of like debating Theo John the shot blocker vs. Kur the shot blocker. Everyone has a preference in type of player they like.
Kam averages exactly one more attempt per 40 minutes than Greg does. Kam just plays more because of Greg's limitations on defense.
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Fluff
Kam is born three-point shooter. That spin move was big time and the shot was pure money. Greg has to be wide open and set to be effective. Great shooters do not need space and can pull the trigger in a split second. Plus, great three-point guys have crazy range. I would not be pulling for Greg to be taking shots five feet behind the line. The game has changed and every on here should know firsthand due to Howard and Rowsey. Those guys were experts, GE is better than his teammates, nothing more.
Did you pull something from stretching so hard to make this argument?
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StillaWarrior
Plenty on here loved Theo the shot blocker and praised him after every block into the eight row. Now, hopefully they are learning what a shot blocker looks like and how they change the game. Every Kur block the ball is in play and that is how it is supposed to be done. As stupid as the Greg debate has been, I had the same debate last two years over Theo's out of position block skills.
Theo was a great help-side shot blocker. He would be that guy who seemingly came out of nowhere to block a shot. Kur can do the help side too, but it seems like he's more likely to block shots straight up. I think it's tougher to block shots against your man because there's not as much of a defensive element of surprise. Of the two, I'll take Kur, but Theo was still one of the best shot blockers I've ever seen in my time following Marquette.
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Theo was also very emphatic with his blocks while Kur just seems so much more workmanlike.
There are often times where there are several bodies in the area and it’s hard to tell what’s happening and MU ends up with the ball and you just know it had to be Kur, and it was.
It’s also extremely impressive how little he fouls with all those blocks and redirects, he’s definitely got a knack for the skill.
Theo was so much more physically imposing, yet Kur is the better and more impactful defensive inside presence
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Theo was a great help-side shot blocker. He would be that guy who seemingly came out of nowhere to block a shot. Kur can do the help side too, but it seems like he's more likely to block shots straight up. I think it's tougher to block shots against your man because there's not as much of a defensive element of surprise. Of the two, I'll take Kur, but Theo was still one of the best shot blockers I've ever seen in my time following Marquette.
I think Kur is much better at blocking shots and getting possession vs. just swatting it out of bounds. At least that's what it feels like over the course of the first 15 games compared to Theo.
And while Theo blocked a fair number of shots from the help-side, I also thought he tried to swat a number of shots he had no chance at, leaving an easy offensive rebound for his man. I haven't noticed that as much with Kur.
Not trying to denigrate Theo at all but so far would prefer Kur.
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brew
Just curious, who else have you seen as an MU fan that think was a good shot blocker? Mac was the best I ever saw and Kur is climbing the ladder quickly. A true shot blocker is a very unique skillset and they do not come around very often.
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brew
Just curious, who else have you seen as an MU fan that think was a good shot blocker? Mac was the best I ever saw and Kur is climbing the ladder quickly. A true shot blocker is a very unique skillset and they do not come around very often.
Not brew, but Mac is still #1 for me. Faisal became a pretty good one his senior year. Kur is ahead of Theo for me, just because he's able to keep plays alive, and rarely goes after ones that he can't get to. There were so many putbacks that happened when Theo flew in for a block.
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Theo was also very emphatic with his blocks while Kur just seems so much more workmanlike.
There are often times where there are several bodies in the area and it’s hard to tell what’s happening and MU ends up with the ball and you just know it had to be Kur, and it was.
It’s also extremely impressive how little he fouls with all those blocks and redirects, he’s definitely got a knack for the skill.
Theo was so much more physically imposing, yet Kur is the better and more impactful defensive inside presence
Unless I'm mistaken, Kur has never fouled out of a game. I'm not just talking about Marquette. Ever.
Also, updating my post from earlier in the season below.
So far this season, Kur has had at least as many blocks as fouls in 13 out of 15 games...if you look at stats from his two seasons in Oklahoma he did this in 35 of 57 games. For comparison, Theo did this only 32 times in 124 games at Marquette (and four times in his 12 games at Duke).
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brew
Just curious, who else have you seen as an MU fan that think was a good shot blocker? Mac was the best I ever saw and Kur is climbing the ladder quickly. A true shot blocker is a very unique skillset and they do not come around very often.
Mac was the best by far, though I didn't watch nearly as avidly back then. In more recent times (say the past 20 years since I was at MU), the list is admittedly pretty short. Otule and Fischer were both good shot blockers (not great, but good) but I don't think either had the intimidation factor about their personalities. Both Theo and Kur are guys that seem hungry to swat shots.
The other guy I'd have to mention is Dwyane Wade. He is probably the best shot-blocking guard I've ever seen at any level. His combination of timing and athleticism to block shots for a guy his size was ridiculous. Absolutely all-world. In terms of having the unique skillset regardless of size, I might put him as the only guy next to Mac in that regard.
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I think Kur is much better at blocking shots and getting possession vs. just swatting it out of bounds. At least that's what it feels like over the course of the first 15 games compared to Theo.
And while Theo blocked a fair number of shots from the help-side, I also thought he tried to swat a number of shots he had no chance at, leaving an easy offensive rebound for his man. I haven't noticed that as much with Kur.
Not trying to denigrate Theo at all but so far would prefer Kur.
The major difference between the two is length. Kur is significantly longer so he can play more controlled than Theo. Theo needed to commit to the block much earlier. He also had more of a squat jumping style. Kur has a 9'2" standing reach. Theo John had a 7'3" wingspan but he was significantly wider in the shoulders so his standing reach isn't has long.
I think Theo also went for the bad ass factor so he treated it more like volleyball. I don't think if he blocked it like Kur we would have gotten the ball anyway because Theo's secondary jump was limited and he requires the wind up.
All of this to say Kur does not need to anticipate or commit as early as John which also means he doesn't pick up as many cheap fouls which makes him a more natural shot blocker.
I think as Osa matures he will be similar but with a better offensive game. This makes me optimistic for the future of the 5 position.
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I agree in regards to body style, arm length, jumping style, etc. Kuath reaches higher easier and gets more blocks. The other thing is defensive style. Theo was frequently the helper because the original defender had gotten blown by. This lead to dump offs for uncontested dunks by bigs because MU either had rotated poorly or didn't have a nearby defender big enough to contest. This year, Kur is rarely on an island.
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I agree that GE is not a 3-pt shooter, but more-so a guy that shoots 3’s. He is better from 3 than Kolek, better than Lewis too, but GE is not necessarily a go-to guy from the 3-spot. Jones is, IMO. And of course, at the rec, I was. 😉
I always liked the rims at the rec
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The major difference between the two is length. Kur is significantly longer so he can play more controlled than Theo. Theo needed to commit to the block much earlier. He also had more of a squat jumping style. Kur has a 9'2" standing reach. Theo John had a 7'3" wingspan but he was significantly wider in the shoulders so his standing reach isn't has long.
I think Theo also went for the bad ass factor so he treated it more like volleyball. I don't think if he blocked it like Kur we would have gotten the ball anyway because Theo's secondary jump was limited and he requires the wind up.
All of this to say Kur does not need to anticipate or commit as early as John which also means he doesn't pick up as many cheap fouls which makes him a more natural shot blocker.
I think as Osa matures he will be similar but with a better offensive game. This makes me optimistic for the future of the 5 position.
Kur is a refined shot blocker. He jumps off the correct feet and uses the correct arm. Stays in position, doesn’t lunge etc.
Theo had natural skills but never learned/was taught the art.
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Agree with the OP in theory but after the last 8 years, it's difficult to get too excited. As others have mentioned, ILL wasn't at full strength when we played them, and are no longer in the top 25. Neither is WVU, although both teams were listed in "others receiving votes" this week. They're really good teams and great W's to have but being the negative person I am, my expectations weren't re-set as a result of those W's. Ole Miss and KState are in high major conferences but nothing special. Don't get me wrong. Any W over any high major conference team is a good thing, but whatever. With the exception of his first and last seasons, we always won 2 or 3 games over legitimate powerhouse teams under WOJO and where did it get us? Nowhere!
I'm extremely optimistic long term and have tremendous confidence in Shaka and his staff, but just don't think this is the year. As much as I hope and want last night's W to be THE turning point of our season, the likelihood that it's an anomaly is high and two weeks from now we could easily be on the other side of a loss like Providence had last night. Competition for talent these days is absolutely fierce, and while we have some capable players, our talent is middle of the pack. Wish it weren't so, but it's reality. Until this team can win 2 or 3 consecutive games against top half of conf. opponents my outlook won't be optimistic. Expectations are different thing entirely and mine are extremely high. Nothing short of a return to the blueblood status we had in the 70's is going to make me happy. Not even sure if that's realistic but I'd like to think that's what we all want right? If we're not a contender to win the national championship every year, what's the point?
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Should probably just lose so we don’t have to worry about the ramifications of beating teams not at their best.
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Out of curiosity, is there an associated cult of high expectations?
In that cult, do the “bad losses” absolve good wins?
Is the cult of high expectations free from the shackles of having to “update expectations based on results” as referenced in the original post? If it is not free, what were the expectations of the cult of high expectations after four straight losses?
It’s all so confusing to me! I wish I knew which cult to belong to. I’m lost.
Classic, Cam.
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Agree with the OP in theory but after the last 8 years, it's difficult to get too excited. As others have mentioned, ILL wasn't at full strength when we played them, and are no longer in the top 25. Neither is WVU, although both teams were listed in "others receiving votes" this week. They're really good teams and great W's to have but being the negative person I am, my expectations weren't re-set as a result of those W's. Ole Miss and KState are in high major conferences but nothing special. Don't get me wrong. Any W over any high major conference team is a good thing, but whatever. With the exception of his first and last seasons, we always won 2 or 3 games over legitimate powerhouse teams under WOJO and where did it get us? Nowhere!
I'm extremely optimistic long term and have tremendous confidence in Shaka and his staff, but just don't think this is the year. As much as I hope and want last night's W to be THE turning point of our season, the likelihood that it's an anomaly is high and two weeks from now we could easily be on the other side of a loss like Providence had last night. Competition for talent these days is absolutely fierce, and while we have some capable players, our talent is middle of the pack. Wish it weren't so, but it's reality. Until this team can win 2 or 3 consecutive games against top half of conf. opponents my outlook won't be optimistic. Expectations are different thing entirely and mine are extremely high. Nothing short of a return to the blueblood status we had in the 70's is going to make me happy. Not even sure if that's realistic but I'd like to think that's what we all want right? If we're not a contender to win the national championship every year, what's the point?
a return to blueblood status should be expected and is realistic. It’s all up to Marquette. If MU wants to rejoin the blueblood club, it can. Entry is steep, however.
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brew
Just curious, who else have you seen as an MU fan that think was a good shot blocker? Mac was the best I ever saw and Kur is climbing the ladder quickly. A true shot blocker is a very unique skillset and they do not come around very often.
I’ll play too.
Mac was the best by a wide margin, and to me the next best was Faisal, followed by Amal McCaskill. After them, probably Kur. Guys like Theo, Walter Downing, Otule and Fischer were all solid, but not at the same level IMO.
Best shot locking guard to me was Michael Wilson. Great overall defender at the guard position. Somebody else mentioned Dwayne Wade, but I would take Wilson over Wade on defense in college.
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Gooo
Michael Wilson was an awfully good shot blocker for being a guard. Not one if my favorite Warriors, but he was good defender and blocked a lot of shots. Amal also held his own.
Hopefully they can keep Kur on the court and see how his season at MU plays out. If he plays enough I think he ends up being second best in school history, IMO.
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When Kuath has been good, he's really helped us. The problem with Kur is that, like most of our players, he has been very good in some games and a complete non-factor in others -- either totally disappearing while on the court, getting benched for poor play or both. On top of that, his two missed dunks were huge plays that directly contributed to losses.
Thankfully, we have another viable option at his position, and although Oso has tons of room for improvement, he already is so improved that it doesn't do justice to the word "improved." As a result, we're in pretty decent shape at the 5, and Shaka has done a good job apportioning court time to Kur and Oso.
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Expectations do not change much. Providence had a bad game. I am sure part of this had to do with MU's defense, but we had a bad game against Creighton. The game offset.