Program trajectory and wojo

[Goose]

Lazer
I have stated many times my belief in having the eye test be part of my evaluation process. This season, I watched more MU ball than I have in the Wojo era, aside from Carlino’s year, and fortunately missed our end of season slide due to travels. From what I saw, it was fun season with some exciting wins. That said, I never saw a performance that I believed the corner had been turned in meaningful way.

Now to my question, in watching the eught games yesterday, do you think we would have beaten any of the teams that won yesterday? From what I saw of our team, I think we would have been knocked around by all eight winners.

Reason I mention this is simple. Having a good record and decent seed can be deceiving. MU was very fortunate to play in a bad BE this year and do not think that can be debated any longer. Records and seeding definitely means something, but being honest about how that came about is equally as important.

I said many times on here that long term success is the goal. Many on here are in belief next year is the year and than a big recruiting class carries us over. I do not see the foundation that has been built for long term success and that is my biggest issue.

Curious on everyone’s thoughts on how MU would have fared in any of the eight games yesterday. Want to add, this is not trying to prove a point, just looking for honest appraisal of where this team sits today.

[Pakuni]

Lazer
I have stated many times my belief in having the eye test be part of my evaluation process. This season, I watched more MU ball than I have in the Wojo era, aside from Carlino’s year, and fortunately missed our end of season slide due to travels. From what I saw, it was fun season with some exciting wins. That said, I never saw a performance that I believed the corner had been turned in meaningful way.

Now to my question, in watching the eught games yesterday, do you think we would have beaten any of the teams that won yesterday? From what I saw of our team, I think we would have been knocked around by all eight winners.

Reason I mention this is simple. Having a good record and decent seed can be deceiving. MU was very fortunate to play in a bad BE this year and do not think that can be debated any longer. Records and seeding definitely means something, but being honest about how that came about is equally as important.

I said many times on here that long term success is the goal. Many on here are in belief next year is the year and than a big recruiting class carries us over. I do not see the foundation that has been built for long term success and that is my biggest issue.

Curious on everyone’s thoughts on how MU would have fared in any of the eight games yesterday. Want to add, this is not trying to prove a point, just looking for honest appraisal of where this team sits today.

I think one point being missed regarding MU's seed and the strength of the Big East is that MU didn't earned a 5 seed because it finished second in a weak conference.
It earned a 5 seed by playing a tough nonconference schedule and beating quality opponents, i.e. Louisville, K-State, UW, Buffalo.

As for how MU would have fared in the second round ... who knows. We tend to overestimate the importance of tournament games in the overall evaluation of teams, players, conferences, etc. - understandably so, because it's the big dance and winning in the tourney is the ultimate goal. But every game is different, every matchup is different and creating some transitive effect is lazy.
That said, given the way MU played down the stretch - not just Thursday - I wouldn't have liked this team's chances against anyone yesterday.
The better question may be why such a Jekyll and Hyde season from this team, and which version is closer to reality.

[HowardsWorld]

Lazer
I have stated many times my belief in having the eye test be part of my evaluation process. This season, I watched more MU ball than I have in the Wojo era, aside from Carlino’s year, and fortunately missed our end of season slide due to travels. From what I saw, it was fun season with some exciting wins. That said, I never saw a performance that I believed the corner had been turned in meaningful way.

Now to my question, in watching the eught games yesterday, do you think we would have beaten any of the teams that won yesterday? From what I saw of our team, I think we would have been knocked around by all eight winners.

Reason I mention this is simple. Having a good record and decent seed can be deceiving. MU was very fortunate to play in a bad BE this year and do not think that can be debated any longer. Records and seeding definitely means something, but being honest about how that came about is equally as important.

I said many times on here that long term success is the goal. Many on here are in belief next year is the year and than a big recruiting class carries us over. I do not see the foundation that has been built for long term success and that is my biggest issue.

Curious on everyone’s thoughts on how MU would have fared in any of the eight games yesterday. Want to add, this is not trying to prove a point, just looking for honest appraisal of where this team sits today.

I would say even comparing yesterdays game would be unfair. Look back at the games played the same day MU lost. Outside of the 15 and 16s there was not a single team outside or maybe Northeastern that we beat. Of the teams that lost Syracuse, Nevada, Bradley, Vermont,Yale, Old Dominion, Seton Hall, St. Marys, Louisville, Belmont I am not sure I see them beating one of those teams the way they played. I don't think our seed was the issue we would have lost to no matter who we played.

[skianth16]

Based on the first post, it seems like there are 2 very different views about our recent history.

The decidedly pro-Wojo camp sees Buzz's last year as the baseline for judging Wojo's performance. Makes sense, right? We have to look at where he started to really be able to tell if his teams are trending up or down. Anything that went on 2,5,10, or 30 years prior to Wojo's arrival are meaningless when it comes to judging Wojo. All he could work with was the program he inherited, nothing more, nothing less.

The no-Wojo camp sees the performance of other coaches prior to Wojo as the baseline for judging Wojo's performance. This also makes sense, doesn't it? Marquette basketball has been a nationally known brand for decades. The names and faces have changed over the years, but the fans still expect the team to win. We have some pretty impressive banners hanging in the rafters at the Fiserv, and they weren't all hung there under one coach's tenure. Plenty of coaches have been very successful at MU, and so far Wojo isn't producing the kinds of results other have. He needs to improve.

Both sides make fair points, and both sides conveniently ignore certain points from the other side. The truth, as always, is probably somewhere in the middle.

[Goose]

Howard
I am asking if anyone thinks MU’scteam this year is on the same class as the eight winners yesterday. Pick the best game MU played this year and then answer the question. I do not think at our best we would beat those teams on a regular basis, by that I mean 50% of the time.

[HowardsWorld]

I would say our two best wins were home vs K- State and Buffalo. Howard was hot in both so its very hard to judge. Of the teams that played yesterday I could only see us beating Florida. Everyone else would have out physicaled us.

[willie warrior]

Willie

In my world command is an honor. Live up to the ideal or get the f#ck out of the way.

But from a business perspective, the question must be, "Are the shareholders getting the return they expect?"

In the case of Marquette basketball the answer is a decided no.

I agree with this, but there are a number of posters here that feel the shareholders are getting the return they expect, and keep preaching that we are getting there, just be patient. After this years meltdown combined with the prior 4 years, just don't get that perspective. Must be that those people have the objectivity cornerstone that us country bumpkins lack.

[real chili 83]

real

I was hoping you would post today because I wanted to hear your take on the situation. Your post is pretty much spot on. Once again, it comes down to how they define program success. Judging by many in here, Wojo has had success and enough to believe he will get better. My gut says, BOT thinks Woj has knocked out of the park.

Been on a slow burn since Thursday. Really glad I went to Hartford. Enjoyed meeting and hanging out with Benny. Also met Thurl, Todd Smith’ s parents, amongst others.

Managed to really eff my knee up the night before leaving for Hartford. Hoping MRI says I’m justoo fat, and nothing more.  The XL Center is a real crap hole...it was a treat hobbling up and down those steps.

Been hanging out on the Underboard this weekend. More tranquil, level headed discussions. This thread is finally, one of the better threads too....so far.

[Goose]

real
Take care of your knee. We need you in MKE next season for some in person ball talk.

[Hards Alumni]

Very level headed post, jesmu.  Unfortunately, those against Wojo won't change their minds.  MU could have lost in the Sweet 16, and they would say "See, Wojo can't win during the 2nd weekend."

Now, I am not saying Wojo is some fabulous coach.  But he's coming off his best season.   He's done enough to keep his job and the arrow is still pointing up.  I don't know what Wojo's ceiling is but I know we haven't seen it.

I'm willing to see where things go.  I won't set any ultimatums for Wojo (as if me doing so would have any affect on anything).  If things crash and burn, then I will support a coaching change.   But not before.

He is coming off his best season record-wise yes.  Here is the problem.  The Big East was a hot steaming pile of garbage this year, and we didn't win it.  Every team from the BEAST in the NCAA tourney won't be playing in the second weekend.  We can throw some lipstick on this pig if we want, but post season results matter. 

2nd place in the worst field the BEAST has had in a long while
Bounced before the championship game of the BEAST tourney
Absolutely destroyed on the national stage by a mid-major

Now, if you're okay with spending like a top 10 team, and getting results that place MU in the 25-30 range of teams, that great.  I'm glad you're happy with being a lovable loser.  Wojo is going to get his next year to prove that he isn't the dolt that he clearly is, and then he should be gone if we don't take the BEAST and make it to the 2nd week of the tournament.

Anything else, and we are accepting mediocrity as a program.

[jesmu84]

MU spends $11.3 million on men's bball. 10th in spending. We are outspent by 1 Bigwhatever school, and it isn't the rodents.

With that kind of spending, for a school our size, should we be happy with this trajectory? 

If this is good as it gets, hell no.  We should be playing into the second weekend (and beyond) more often than not. 

If Wojo isn't that guy, dump him now.   If he needs a Jerry Wainwright on the bench (Hank Raymonds) go get him one. 

If this is as good as it gets, and the BOT is ok with this, I question their stewardship.

Is it possible that we need to spend that much to get even to this level? Not saying that Wojo is the best coach in America (he's not). But, unless we get a top 10/5/3 coach, perhaps a school like Marquette is required to commit this many resources to get to the level currently.

[jesmu84]

Lazer
I have stated many times my belief in having the eye test be part of my evaluation process. This season, I watched more MU ball than I have in the Wojo era, aside from Carlino’s year, and fortunately missed our end of season slide due to travels. From what I saw, it was fun season with some exciting wins. That said, I never saw a performance that I believed the corner had been turned in meaningful way.

Now to my question, in watching the eught games yesterday, do you think we would have beaten any of the teams that won yesterday? From what I saw of our team, I think we would have been knocked around by all eight winners.

Reason I mention this is simple. Having a good record and decent seed can be deceiving. MU was very fortunate to play in a bad BE this year and do not think that can be debated any longer. Records and seeding definitely means something, but being honest about how that came about is equally as important.

I said many times on here that long term success is the goal. Many on here are in belief next year is the year and than a big recruiting class carries us over. I do not see the foundation that has been built for long term success and that is my biggest issue.

Curious on everyone’s thoughts on how MU would have fared in any of the eight games yesterday. Want to add, this is not trying to prove a point, just looking for honest appraisal of where this team sits today.

The program is trending upwards from where Wojo started. Objectively, that is a fact.

Do you get rid of the him with a positive trendline?

IMO, unless the programs dips or plateaus under his leadership, you keep giving him the reins.

Also, I wonder the national reputation that may be developed if administration fires a coach with a positive trend.

[jesmu84]

Howard
I am asking if anyone thinks MU’scteam this year is on the same class as the eight winners yesterday. Pick the best game MU played this year and then answer the question. I do not think at our best we would beat those teams on a regular basis, by that I mean 50% of the time.

Has anyone said the program is at that level yet? I don't believe they are.

But, again, if the program is trending positively, don't you want to give them the chance to get to that level?

[jesmu84]

He is coming off his best season record-wise yes.  Here is the problem.  The Big East was a hot steaming pile of garbage this year, and we didn't win it.  Every team from the BEAST in the NCAA tourney won't be playing in the second weekend.  We can throw some lipstick on this pig if we want, but post season results matter. 

2nd place in the worst field the BEAST has had in a long while
Bounced before the championship game of the BEAST tourney
Absolutely destroyed on the national stage by a mid-major

Now, if you're okay with spending like a top 10 team, and getting results that place MU in the 25-30 range of teams, that great.  I'm glad you're happy with being a lovable loser.  Wojo is going to get his next year to prove that he isn't the dolt that he clearly is, and then he should be gone if we don't take the BEAST and make it to the 2nd week of the tournament.

Anything else, and we are accepting mediocrity as a program.

I asked this elsewhere... is it possible that the small, private, non-football school in Milwaukee has to spend like a top 10 team to get results of a 25-30 (IF they don't have a top 10/5/3 coach)? If that is the reality, and coming across a coach of that talent is difficult, is the administration/fanbase pleased with the ROI?

[skianth16]

The program is trending upwards from where Wojo started. Objectively, that is a fact.

Do you get rid of the him with a positive trendline?

IMO, unless the programs dips or plateaus under his leadership, you keep giving him the reins.

Also, I wonder the national reputation that may be developed if administration fires a coach with a positive trend.

There's a big difference between the program Wojo inherited and the team he inherited. He inherited a sub-par team but a very solid program. Referring to the team in 2014 as indicative of the MU program doesn't work for me. The program at the point was strong despite one less than stellar team.

Like I said before, the pro-Wojo camp downplays the MU program on purpose to make Wojo seem more accomplished. And that's a big reason why I have a hard time buying those arguments.

[brewcity77]

There's a big difference between the program Wojo inherited and the team he inherited. He inherited a sub-par team but a very solid program. Referring to the team in 2014 as indicative of the MU program doesn't work for me. The program at the point was strong despite one less than stellar team.

Like I said before, the pro-Wojo camp downplays the MU program on purpose to make Wojo seem more accomplished. And that's a big reason why I have a hard time buying those arguments.

This is a fair comment. Strong program, weak team. I think our general expectations changed with Buzz. He inherited a strong program & team, but but knew he would lose 4 seniors & lost the incoming recruiting class. Buzz used JUCOs to fill that void, Wojo relied on 4 year players which led to his team taking longer to mature than Buzz's team did.

The positive is that on the balance of the season, 2018-19 was a step in the right direction. But the last month turned a big step forward into two steps forward, one step back. Next year we have 4 seniors, 3 juniors, 3 sophomores, & 1-3 freshmen. On paper this should be sustainable, but as it's taking longer than it did for Buzz, I think the frustration is understandable.

[WarriorDad]

MU spends $11.3 million on men's bball. 10th in spending. We are outspent by 1 Bigwhatever school, and it isn't the rodents.

With that kind of spending, for a school our size, should we be happy with this trajectory? 

If this is good as it gets, hell no.  We should be playing into the second weekend (and beyond) more often than not. 

If Wojo isn't that guy, dump him now.   If he needs a Jerry Wainwright on the bench (Hank Raymonds) go get him one. 

If this is as good as it gets, and the BOT is ok with this, I question their stewardship.

Some of this is a matter of allocation.  Texas is one behind Marquette, but has the largest expenditure in total athletics of any university in the country.  Which means they can distribute expenditures among football, baseball and other sports.

The same is true for nearly every school that has football.  In my view, it makes these lists highly questionable.

You say we should be playing in the second weekend more often than not.  To be as conservative as possible with that approach, that means 51% of the time (more often than not) we should be in the second weekend.  In the last 20 years do you know how many schools have done that?  I do not, but my hunch is it is extremely low and confined to the upper crest of college basketball.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There's a big difference between the program Wojo inherited and the team he inherited. He inherited a sub-par team but a very solid program. Referring to the team in 2014 as indicative of the MU program doesn't work for me. The program at the point was strong despite one less than stellar team.

Like I said before, the pro-Wojo camp downplays the MU program on purpose to make Wojo seem more accomplished. And that's a big reason why I have a hard time buying those arguments.

I recognize the program Wojo inherited. Here's the reality, for the past 40 years, getting a 5 seed and losing in the first round has been an above average season for Marquette. We are not a program that regularly grabs high seeds and makes deep tournament runs. Buzz had an improbable sweet 16 run as a team that barely made the tournament, grabbed two three seeds and made two second weekend appearances and then nosedived. Unfortunate truth is that we had an upward trend and then it crashed to Earth during Buzz' last year and departure. That is the program Wojo inherited and need to build back up.

[Pakuni]

There's a big difference between the program Wojo inherited and the team he inherited. He inherited a sub-par team but a very solid program. Referring to the team in 2014 as indicative of the MU program doesn't work for me. The program at the point was strong despite one less than stellar team.

Like I said before, the pro-Wojo camp downplays the MU program on purpose to make Wojo seem more accomplished. And that's a big reason why I have a hard time buying those arguments.

This is reasonable, but also goes both ways. Some here fail to recognize the challenges of the MU program. Some of these people are stuck in 1977, but more of them view Buzz's three-year run - which if, we're being honest, saw a lot of breaks fall our way - not as a high-water mark, but as a baseline.
That Davidson NCAA games is one of the highlights of my NCAA fandom ... but it's very interesting to think of how much the Buzz narrative changes if Davidson were able to complete a simple pass in the last 10 seconds of that game. Then he's the guy who lost a 3 vs 14 game, and was thoroughly outcoached in doing so.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

He earned the 5th highest seed in 40 years, and did what with it exactly?? Getting the 5th highest seed in 40 years is 100% meaningless, if you don't do a thing with it. I mean do you get to hang a banner for something like that?? Do you not even understand that Coaching at any level from college and above is about results, and winning?? Any Coach will tell you that.

Would getting to the Round of 32 mean anything?? Maybe not on the surface, but it at least shows people you can get to the tournament and win when you do get there. Look how much Buzz won when he got to the tournament. I think the biggest problem is now that the administration doesn't really give a F, how good the program is. They really don't. They don't care if they win at the highest level or not. Bring in good kids, that stay out of trouble, produce mid major results on the court..they are fine with that.

2 tournament appearances in 5 years..don't give me this "look what he started with" nonsense. Even if you cut him some slack for the first four years...this was year 5...he had the best team he has ever had..and it's not close. What did that result in?? A monumental collapse at the end of the year, no BE title(when all they had to do was win 1 game out of 4), no Big East tournament title, and a loss to a mid major as a higher seed. The administration is okay with that now?? Apparently so, and that's really really pathetic with the resources they put into the BB program. Nothing like acting mid major ish...at Marquette, the MINIMUM expectation should be going to the tourney every single year..bare minimum. Apparently it's an "honor" now to be chosen for the NCAA tournament. Is this Wofford or something?? There's a place where they should celebrate getting an invite every so often. And...they won a game too! As a higher seed. Imagine that!

You don't think it wouldn't be good for the program?? I assume because you THINK there would be mass transfers?? Well, Sam wouldn't leave(he's a Senior that would make ZERO sense), which means Joey would stay(he'd lose a year of eligibility if he left), and Markus will be back(I'm pretty sure). Keep those 3 and bring in someone that can actually do something with that kind of talent. Someone that can make in game adjustments. That has a bag of tricks for when it's needed. And most of all, someone that doesn't say "well examine that and see if we can figure out what happened", in regards to the late season collapse. That's the one that pushed me over the edge and told me he was absolutely in over his head. You wait until the end of the year to "figure it out"?

No, you damn well should have figured it out and corrected it after the second straight loss. That's what a good Coach does. Yet we saw NOTHING different during that stretch. Not even something as small as a starting line up change. Nothing like showing you have no idea what happened, or how to fix it and not even trying something(anything) to help the team snap out of it.

Guru, I have bigger goals than you do I guess. I don't give a flying f*ck about Round of 32 appearances or even Sweet 16s. No one remembers the teams that made the Sweet 16 and lost a year later. I've seen five Sweet 16s in my life, I'm over them. I want Final Fours and National Championships. Not only that, I want a program where Final Fours and National Championship expectations are the norm. You know what programs make it there? The ones who consistently earn high seeds and have had one coach who has built a program up year after year. You know what programs don't make it there? The ones who churn through coaches every couple years because their fans are whining that they didn't win enough first round NCAA games. The administration knows this and that is what they are trying to build at Marquette.

[Columbo]

Need to give Wojo next year and support him as the program has made strides since his first year, perhaps not at the rate we want but if and when he goes, it will take another 2-3 years to get the program back up to speed primarily due to incoming recruits decommitting.

I'm not the biggest Wojo fan as I find his stubbornness to run the same offense & not periodically play zone drives me crazy. Ja just picked us apart, St. Johns and others found such a groove offensively at times that he never did anything to change up the pace of play to try to disrupt their flow offensively.

As a matter of fact, last year we played zone twice late in the year against Creighton with a big come back and beat another (Xavier?) due to the zone. Maryland through it at LSU yesterday and almost pulled it out. No creativity on his in-game coaching for the most part. It's okay to get away from man-to-man once in a while Coach!
Coach Judson told me that "he is from Duke and that's why he won't play it". In other words, he is stubborn thinking he has a bunch of 5-start athletes? Is it just me or does Wojo fail to recognize what is so apparent to the average fan at times?

With that said, he's still developing and maturing as a coach. I'll support him big time headed into next year as none of us can challenge his passion, commitment, and dedication to his team and to the overall program. That is something he does very well. 

[skianth16]

This is reasonable, but also goes both ways. Some here fail to recognize the challenges of the MU program. Some of these people are stuck in 1977, but more of them view Buzz's three-year run - which if, we're being honest, saw a lot of breaks fall our way - not as a high-water mark, but as a baseline.
That Davidson NCAA games is one of the highlights of my NCAA fandom ... but it's very interesting to think of how much the Buzz narrative changes if Davidson were able to complete a simple pass in the last 10 seconds of that game. Then he's the guy who lost a 3 vs 14 game, and was thoroughly outcoached in doing so.

Buzz's 3 year tourney success should definitely not be a baseline. Very few programs can sustain that kind of success year in and year out. I think most here would agree that it's not fair to judge the current program by the Al era standards, either. But we also shouldn't be comparing a Big East school that has become a household name in March (in this millenia) to the mid-major that we were under O'Neill and Deane.

I think the baseline for our program should be the early Big East years. Making the move to a power conference was a big step for the program and I've got to think that opened some doors and created new expectations.

[willie warrior]

Guru, I have bigger goals than you do I guess. I don't give a flying f*ck about Round of 32 appearances or even Sweet 16s. No one remembers the teams that made the Sweet 16 and lost a year later. I've seen five Sweet 16s in my life, I'm over them. I want Final Fours and National Championships. Not only that, I want a program where Final Fours and National Championship expectations are the norm. You know what programs make it there? The ones who consistently earn high seeds and have had one coach who has built a program up year after year. You know what programs don't make it there? The ones who churn through coaches every couple years because their fans are whining that they didn't win enough first round NCAA games. The administration knows this and that is what they are trying to build at Marquette.

Well, perhaps the administration has the wrong guy.

[jesmu84]

There's a big difference between the program Wojo inherited and the team he inherited. He inherited a sub-par team but a very solid program. Referring to the team in 2014 as indicative of the MU program doesn't work for me. The program at the point was strong despite one less than stellar team.

Like I said before, the pro-Wojo camp downplays the MU program on purpose to make Wojo seem more accomplished. And that's a big reason why I have a hard time buying those arguments.

That's a fair distinction - team v program. I generally agree that as a program - money, academic resources, facilities, staff, etc - things are not any different than when buzz was here.

But the team wojo inherited and thus team success is objectively positive as a trend.

I was honestly not trying to down play the program before wojo. I was just looking at the team makeup and results in Buzz's last year/wojos first year compared to today.

[jesmu84]

Well, perhaps the administration has the wrong guy.

Perhaps.

But don't you want to give him the chance to build on his already positive trend to find out?