MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: jesmu84 on January 28, 2014, 12:23:31 PM
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Crazy talk here..
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/10363430/outside-lines-northwestern-wildcats-football-players-trying-join-labor-union
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It is not the first time in history...that article is wrong right out of the gate. It has been tried several times before.
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From the story ... the big issue:
Athletes playing for university-based teams are not considered employees by any legal body. They haven't been since 1953, when the Colorado Supreme Court upheld a determination by the state Industrial Commission that a football player at the University of Denver was an "employee" within the context of the Colorado workers' compensation statute.
As a result, the university was responsible to provide workers' compensation for his football injuries. The NCAA responded by coining the term "student-athlete" and mandating its use by universities. Use of that term, and other efforts to enforce the idea that athletes cannot also be employees, ramped up as the NCAA a few years later introduced athletic scholarships, a form of compensation for services provided.
The distinction has held, though since then the courts have come to recognize other students who provide services to universities as employees. Graduate students who teach, for instance, are recognized as employees of universities under laws in many states. Academics such as Richard and Amy McCormick of Michigan State have argued that athletes are employees under the common law definition of the National Labor Relations Act.
The NLRA governs only private enterprises and does not apply to public universities. As a private university, Northwestern falls under its jurisdiction. Gerard said that based on labor law, any decision in favor of the players against Northwestern would apply to all private universities across the country in the FBS. It would not apply to public universities, which are governed by state laws.
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Based on the above, if Northwestern wins, and they get the players at other private universities to join their union (ND, Stanford, USC, Vandy, Duke, Baylor, Clemson etc.) and they start paying players, the public universities will be at a competitive disadvantage in recruiting and will cave and join them.
Remember, if Northwestern wins, it is not up to the university if they join the Union. It is purely up to the players at the other schools alone.
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From the story ... the big issue:
Athletes playing for university-based teams are not considered employees by any legal body.
Interesting take. When I helped my company make millions of $$$, I was an employee (and never needed knee surgery or had a concussion). When athletes help their company make million (billions) $$$, they are not employees. Good gig for the schools.
As I stated in another thread, it is interesting that the NCAA responded in a matter of just a couple hours as opposed to a couple years when a school doesn't require their athletes to be able to read. Especially as they stressed how these are academic institutions. Apparently they pull out the "academic Institution" card whenever their cash flow is threatened.
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Based on the above, if Northwestern wins, and they get the players at other private universities to join their union (ND, Stanford, USC, Vandy, Duke, Baylor, Clemson etc.) and they start paying players, the public universities will be at a competitive disadvantage in recruiting and will cave and join them.
Remember, if Northwestern wins, it is not up to the university if they join the Union. It is purely up to the players at the other schools alone.
With the exception of USC, all of the schools you mention above are in right-to-work states. That should make things interesting: Union thuggery on the gridiron trying to intimidate players that don't want to pay dues.
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With the exception of USC, all of the schools you mention above are in right-to-work states. That should make things interesting: Union thuggery on the gridiron trying to intimidate players that don't want to pay dues.
Sorry, but in my book, anyone who throws out the phrase "union thuggery" is simply a fool.
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Sorry, but in my book, anyone who throws out the phrase "union thuggery" is simply a fool.
+1. Unions have been demonized in this country to an absurd degree. Like any other entity they have their problems, but, all things considered, they are a positive for employees and employers. It's really amazing how negative a connotation the word "union" carries.
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+1. Unions have been demonized in this country to an absurd degree. Like any other entity they have their problems, but, all things considered, they are a positive for employees and employers. It's really amazing how negative a connotation the word "union" carries.
You have to admit the unions brought that on themselves.
And I guess I should have used teal.
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And I guess I should have used teal.
Didn't need to with me, thug!
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+1. Unions have been demonized in this country to an absurd degree. Like any other entity they have their problems, but, all things considered, they are a positive for employees and employers. It's really amazing how negative a connotation the word "union" carries.
Much of it brought on by themselves. My wife is a member of a union (she no longer works) and she can tell some wonderful examples of it over her career. The term "union thugs" didn't just come out of nowhere, there is a history behind it. To deny this is absurd as much as Brandx wants to deny it.
For several years out of college I worked in the engine automotive testing industry with my clients at GM, Ford, Cummins, Caterpillar, etc....it was more than a bit fun going to the test floor.
Here's my story from the AMU while a college senior. The AMU wasn't open yet, still being built. As BMU building managers, we had to also work the AMU late at night and do overnight shifts with public safety until it opened. On one of my shifts I heard a tremendous crash on the first floor like something collapsing in the area of the Warrior Shoppe (book store). Went down to investigate, called Public Safety. Ultimately an entire section of the that area was destroyed. It was determined by the investigation by police and public safety that the union guys up set that some non-union guys were doing work in the AMU, so they sabotaged the whole area. Fortunately, it collapsed in the middle of the night and not while people were around. It was an eye opening experience to say the least.
Unfortunate, because many unions have done good things for people, but they've also done some other things that have caused problems from their actions of their members that earned them the criticism they get. Plenty of union thug beatings around on YouTube....that characterization didn't happen as an accident or a mistake.
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Much of it brought on by themselves. My wife is a member of a union (she no longer works) and she can tell some wonderful examples of it over her career. The term "union thugs" didn't just come out of nowhere, there is a history behind it. To deny this is absurd as much as Brandx wants to deny it.
For several years out of college I worked in the engine automotive testing industry with my clients at GM, Ford, Cummins, Caterpillar, etc....it was more than a bit fun going to the test floor.
Here's my story from the AMU while a college senior. The AMU wasn't open yet, still being built. As BMU building managers, we had to also work the AMU late at night and do overnight shifts with public safety until it opened. On one of my shifts I heard a tremendous crash on the first floor like something collapsing in the area of the Warrior Shoppe (book store). Went down to investigate, called Public Safety. Ultimately an entire section of the that area was destroyed. It was determined by the investigation by police and public safety that the union guys up set that some non-union guys were doing work in the AMU, so they sabotaged the whole area. Fortunately, it collapsed in the middle of the night and not while people were around. It was an eye opening experience to say the least.
Unfortunate, because many unions have done good things for people, but they've also done some other things that have caused problems from their actions of their members that earned them the criticism they get. Plenty of union thug beatings around on YouTube....that characterization didn't happen as an accident or a mistake.
I understand and completely agree. However, it's funny how bad it has become for the unions compared to their employers (who, throughout the same existence have committed just as evil acts). I guess that's what media manipulation will do.
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I understand and completely agree. However, it's funny how bad it has become for the unions compared to their employers (who, throughout the same existence have committed just as evil acts). I guess that's what media manipulation will do.
We'll end our agreement there. I can't turn on MSDNC for 5 minutes without employers being ripped to shreds at every turn. Employers take plenty of brutal shots, unions are hardly the only ones that get hit.
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We'll end our agreement there. I can't turn on MSDNC for 5 minutes without employers being ripped to shreds at every turn. Employers take plenty of brutal shots, unions are hardly the only ones that get hit.
It might surprise you to know that I agree with you about MSNBC. I can't say I like any of it.
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Here's my story from the AMU while a college senior. The AMU wasn't open yet, still being built. As BMU building managers, we had to also work the AMU late at night and do overnight shifts with public safety until it opened.
Hadn't known that you had been a Super in the years after I graduated. Many of the early 80s Brooks Union Supervisors will be gathering next week when Butler comes to town. Of course in our day we were still manning Carpenter Hall and AMU didn't yet exist. But I'll bet we both had Angelo's delivered to Toby's office late on a Saturday night.
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Who's going to pay the union dues?
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We'll end our agreement there. I can't turn on MSDNC for 5 minutes without employers being ripped to shreds at every turn. Employers take plenty of brutal shots, unions are hardly the only ones that get hit.
Well, at least then you have time to watch Fox remind us what sluts women really are ;D
But yes, after all the good that unions did, their attitude stopped being about workers rights and became an us vs. them mentality. And with both sides feeling that way... hope was gone.
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Well, at least then you have time to watch Fox remind us what sluts women really are ;D
But yes, after all the good that unions did, their attitude stopped being about workers rights and became an us vs. them mentality. And with both sides feeling that way... hope was gone.
You said it much better than I did.
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Unions are great for people who personally add little value.
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You said it much better than I did.
Jesmu, when I was young I was on the executive board of a union. I quit when I was ordered to defend a guy caught with a joint in his hand. Nothing against smokin' a J, but don't do it on the job and expect me to bail you out.
But the critics of unions forget about weekends off, lunch breaks, paid vacations, Family & Medical Leave Act, sick leave, Social Security 8-hour work day, overtime pay, Child labor laws, OSHA, 40-hour work week, workers’ comp, pensions, Employer health care insurance, Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS), sexual harassment laws, Americans With Disabilities Act, holiday pay, dental, life, and vision insurance, Pregnancy and parental leave, and military leave.
All things we take for granted even in our non-union jobs.
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Unions are great for people who personally add little value.
Are you in the Scoop union ;)
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Well, at least then you have time to watch Fox remind us what sluts women really are ;D
But yes, after all the good that unions did, their attitude stopped being about workers rights and became an us vs. them mentality. And with both sides feeling that way... hope was gone.
Part of the problem is that unions end up devouring themselves. Classic example in my youngest' school. Bar none, best teacher in the school is one that has been around for 5 years. With cuts, they had to eliminate teachers, but union seniority kicked in and some that don't give a damn, riding the gravy train to retirement, not engaged with the kids, etc, keep their job while this one lost hers. People were beyond pissed. Personally, I chuckled. You get what you get and now the consequences start revealing themselves.
Or when concessions are made, they are often to first to protect those at the top of the ranks, not those coming into the ranks. One of the many reasons my wife despised her union so much.
For the record, I tend to watch many different media channels. I don't like to get marching orders from anyone. To each their own.
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Hadn't known that you had been a Super in the years after I graduated. Many of the early 80s Brooks Union Supervisors will be gathering next week when Butler comes to town. Of course in our day we were still manning Carpenter Hall and AMU didn't yet exist. But I'll bet we both had Angelo's delivered to Toby's office late on a Saturday night.
Yup, I worked for Steve Hayes. My sister married a former BMU manager as well. Small world.
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Jesmu, when I was young I was on the executive board of a union. I quit when I was ordered to defend a guy caught with a joint in his hand. Nothing against smokin' a J, but don't do it on the job and expect me to bail you out.
But the critics of unions forget about weekends off, lunch breaks, paid vacations, Family & Medical Leave Act, sick leave, Social Security 8-hour work day, overtime pay, Child labor laws, OSHA, 40-hour work week, workers’ comp, pensions, Employer health care insurance, Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS), sexual harassment laws, Americans With Disabilities Act, holiday pay, dental, life, and vision insurance, Pregnancy and parental leave, and military leave.
All things we take for granted even in our non-union jobs.
I don't think many people, at least educated people, forget about those things. Part of the issue is that those things cost LOTS OF MONEY, and while you may believe they are great, there are consequences to having those things. Trade-offs. My uncle, was very high up in the railroad union back in Philadelphia a few decades ago and we would often talk (no animosity) about this.
A right "earned" or bargained for comes at the expense of something else. Where you lose people, in my opinion (and I told him this often) is the perception that you can get all the goodies and it has no impact. That the goodies are free and come with no price. That is unicorn time, but often when the jobs go, or wages suppressed, etc, it's because the pie is only so big but the position taken is that is has nothing to do with all those goodies, its always something else.
Somewhere reality has to creep into the discussion....unfortunately it doesn't. There's a world out there, competing often with different set of goodies and different costs....something has to give.
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I don't think many people, at least educated people, forget about those things. Part of the issue is that those things cost LOTS OF MONEY, and while you may believe they are great, there are consequences to having those things. Trade-offs. My uncle, was very high up in the railroad union back in Philadelphia a few decades ago and we would often talk (no animosity) about this.
A right "earned" or bargained for comes at the expense of something else. Where you lose people, in my opinion (and I told him this often) is the perception that you can get all the goodies and it has no impact. That the goodies are free and come with no price. That is unicorn time, but often when the jobs go, or wages suppressed, etc, it's because the pie is only so big but the position taken is that is has nothing to do with all those goodies, its always something else.
Somewhere reality has to creep into the discussion....unfortunately it doesn't. There's a world out there, competing often with different set of goodies and different costs....something has to give.
Not to perpetuate stereotypes, cuz I knew a lot of smart, artistic guys in the factory when I was young, but generally their world was a lot smaller - not a lot of concerns about the market forces out in the real world.
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Not to perpetuate stereotypes, cuz I knew a lot of smart, artistic guys in the factory when I was young, but generally their world was a lot smaller - not a lot of concerns about the market forces out in the real world.
We agree and a sentiment Uncle Bob often told me. Jimmy Jack in the foundry doesn't give a rip, doesn't care what's going 25 miles from his home, let alone in Mexico, Thailand, China or anywhere else. That was his constituency that he served and I respect that. I just wanted him to ultimately admit that to take care of Jimmy Jack and everyone else comes at a price, with each goodie is another cost....eventually it collapses. You either start cutting corners and putting plastic in the cars when it should be steel, you outsource the work to China that you used to make in Connecticut, etc. It wasn't until his retirement that he admitted it, guess at that point it didn't matter anymore as the job was done.
Everything has consequences (on all sides...labor, management, government, etc) but no one seems to want to own up to it. It's always the other guy that caused the problems.
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We agree and a sentiment Uncle Bob often told me. Jimmy Jack in the foundry doesn't give a rip, doesn't care what's going 25 miles from his home, let alone in Mexico, Thailand, China or anywhere else. That was his constituency that he served and I respect that. I just wanted him to ultimately admit that to take care of Jimmy Jack and everyone else comes at a price, with each goodie is another cost....eventually it collapses. You either start cutting corners and putting plastic in the cars when it should be steel, you outsource the work to China that you used to make in Connecticut, etc. It wasn't until his retirement that he admitted it, guess at that point it didn't matter anymore as the job was done.
Everything has consequences (on all sides...labor, management, government, etc) but no one seems to want to own up to it. It's always the other guy that caused the problems.
I was lucky enough to work for a company that considered employees to be assets rather than a liability/cost. I don't think the majority of people have that.
But it's always been this way. Companies want a bigger profit. employee costs and expenses cut into it. It's not gonna change.
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Interesting take. When I helped my company make millions of $$$, I was an employee (and never needed knee surgery or had a concussion). When athletes help their company make million (billions) $$$, they are not employees. Good gig for the schools.
As I stated in another thread, it is interesting that the NCAA responded in a matter of just a couple hours as opposed to a couple years when a school doesn't require their athletes to be able to read. Especially as they stressed how these are academic institutions. Apparently they pull out the "academic Institution" card whenever their cash flow is threatened.
Yeah because if they are considered employees, they have all sorts of additional costs.
But IMO this is because the NCAA has taken such a hard line on the issue of amateurism. If the NCAA would allow for reasonable outside income, even sponsorship money within a certain framework, the issues like this would be mitigated.
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I was lucky enough to work for a company that considered employees to be assets rather than a liability/cost. I don't think the majority of people have that.
But it's always been this way. Companies want a bigger profit. employee costs and expenses cut into it. It's not gonna change.
First thing is first, they want to make A Profit, not necessarily bigger profits. In my view, unions have done a nice job of putting many a corporation out of business and that benefits no one. Unions will blame management, of course, but when your costs go through the roof and you are competing with a product on price, then that usually starts the cycle of doom where you have to cut corners on the quality of the product. Consumers sense that, don't want the product anymore and death of corporation is at the doorstep.
Personally, I believe in profit sharing models, get everyone on the same page. Things are bad, everyone takes a hit, things are good and people prosper. This is also how gov't taxation would work....everyone with some skin in the game. Everyone pays something. The animosity from one side paying for all of it would go down incredibly and the realization from the side paying jack would understand that stuff really does cost something. It can work for labor, management, govt, citizens.
College athletics...same scenario. You want to unionize and get all the goodies...ok, when things go the other way, you pay out as well. You make the pros, you owe X% into the union fund. You leave school early, you pay a penalty. Etc, etc. It can't be just goodies coming in, the pie isn't big enough.
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Nothing wrong with unions. Both of my parents are Chicago Public School teachers and apart of the Chicagos Teachers Union. Even with unions though employees still get bullied. Also, as a NU football fan I am really glad they are taking the lead to get this done.
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But the critics of unions forget about sick leave, overtime pay, pensions and vision insurance
All things we take for granted even in our non-union jobs.
what are these things you mention?
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what are these things you mention?
+1
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First thing is first, they want to make A Profit, not necessarily bigger profits. In my view, unions have done a nice job of putting many a corporation out of business and that benefits no one. Unions will blame management, of course, but when your costs go through the roof and you are competing with a product on price, then that usually starts the cycle of doom where you have to cut corners on the quality of the product. Consumers sense that, don't want the product anymore and death of corporation is at the doorstep.
Personally, I believe in profit sharing models, get everyone on the same page. Things are bad, everyone takes a hit, things are good and people prosper. This is also how gov't taxation would work....everyone with some skin in the game. Everyone pays something. The animosity from one side paying for all of it would go down incredibly and the realization from the side paying jack would understand that stuff really does cost something. It can work for labor, management, govt, citizens.
College athletics...same scenario. You want to unionize and get all the goodies...ok, when things go the other way, you pay out as well. You make the pros, you owe X% into the union fund. You leave school early, you pay a penalty. Etc, etc. It can't be just goodies coming in, the pie isn't big enough.
Love this idea as well. Tie people's work effort and production to company success to money in their pocket. I know at former jobs if I worked harder, I didn't see any incentives for it. It makes sense, but it isn't very prevalent unless it's management, etc.
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Personally, I believe in profit sharing models, get everyone on the same page. Things are bad, everyone takes a hit, things are good and people prosper.
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140128/AUTO0102/301280039/Ford-hourly-workers-get-8-800-bonus-checks
As long as this plays out in the executive suite too, I have no problem with this.
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Nothing wrong with unions. Both of my parents are Chicago Public School teachers and apart of the Chicagos Teachers Union. Even with unions though employees still get bullied. Also, as a NU football fan I am really glad they are taking the lead to get this done.
I could not possibly disagree with you more than this ...
The Chicago Public School (CPS) teachers Union (CTU) is one of the most radical unions in The US. Karen Lewis, the current head, is a radical socialists/communist (communist is not meant to be a derogatory term, she is backed by self described Communist Mike Klonsky). http://michellemalkin.com/2012/09/10/chicago-thuggery-personified-meet-chicago-teachers-union-president-karen-lewis/
The strike last year was a disgrace. She so radicalized the teachers they need three days to calm them down to pass the deal, a deal which makes them the highest paid teachers in the United States. http://abcnews.go.com/US/Parenting/chicago-teachers-refuse-vote-contract-deal/story?id=17247513
Then she followed it up with her hate filled diatribe against "rich white people" essentially saying they need to "shut up and pay whatever she wants." http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/07/02/chicago-teachers-union-president-spews-racial-hate-speech-ignores-truth-about/
How about its history? How many CTU past president have gone to prison? Violence by teachers (or their union thug buddies) during strikes? More than I can count?
I live in Chicago and have kids in school in the city (private school) and I seen the CTU and CPS up close ... if the KKK wanted to put together a system to destroy the lives 400,000 kids how would it differ from the current CTU?
The sooner charter schools take over and unemploy CTU teachers working in the CPS, the better off humanity will be.
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I could not possibly disagree with you more than this ...
The Chicago Public School (CPS) teachers Union (CTU) is one of the most radical unions in The US. Karen Lewis, the current head, is a radical socialists/communist (communist is not meant to be a derogatory term, she is backed by self described Communist Mike Klonsky). http://michellemalkin.com/2012/09/10/chicago-thuggery-personified-meet-chicago-teachers-union-president-karen-lewis/
The strike last year was a disgrace. She so radicalized the teachers they need three days to calm them down to pass the deal, a deal which makes them the highest paid teachers in the United States. http://abcnews.go.com/US/Parenting/chicago-teachers-refuse-vote-contract-deal/story?id=17247513
Then she followed it up with her hate filled diatribe against "rich white people" essentially saying they need to "shut up and pay whatever she wants." http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/07/02/chicago-teachers-union-president-spews-racial-hate-speech-ignores-truth-about/
How about its history? How many CTU past president have gone to prison? Violence by teachers (or their union thug buddies) during strikes? More than I can count?
I live in Chicago and have kids in school in the city (private school) and I seen the CTU and CPS up close ... if the KKK wanted to put together a system to destroy the lives 400,000 kids how would it differ from the current CTU?
The sooner charter schools take over and unemploy CTU teachers working in the CPS, the better off humanity will be.
Wow, that is the most insulting thing I have ever laid eyes on. You obviously only looked at the main stream media that were absolutely bashing teachers throughout the strike. Disgrace? No it was a necessity, so before you go along telling the world how charter and private schools are so much better and how the CTU is the devil reincarnated how about you get some of you your facts straight before going on that tangent. For example, lets look at how the school day was made longer for all CPS schools and teachers were not going to get any compensation or pay for working that extra hour. That also doesnt include what teachers do outside of the classroom and all the hours they put into lesson plans and grading. You know aboslutely nothing about the strike besides what the mainstream media told you.
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Yup, I worked for Steve Hayes. My sister married a former BMU manager as well. Small world.
I have a vague recollection of Steve's name. We all worked for Toby Peters when he showed up from SIU in 1980 before heading off to Syracuse for a stint. Toby was the one who initiated student management of the union. Other full timers at the time included Harry Wade in the Mugrack and Charlie Potts as Toby's right hand man. During my two years in that position, we had 5 Supers and ran the Union with full authority after 4p and on weekends. Still probably my favorite job. Ironically, my son currently has Dr. Peters for class.
Today, SSP (Limo) is run using a similar model. 'Sarge' is the lone professional staffer. All management is done by students, one of which is my daughter. Great leadership experience.
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I have a vague recollection of Steve's name. We all worked for Toby Peters when he showed up from SIU in 1980 before heading off to Syracuse for a stint. Toby was the one who initiated student management of the union. Other full timers at the time included Harry Wade in the Mugrack and Charlie Potts as Toby's right hand man. During my two years in that position, we had 5 Supers and ran the Union with full authority after 4p and on weekends. Still probably my favorite job. Ironically, my son currently has Dr. Peters for class.
Today, SSP (Limo) is run using a similar model. 'Sarge' is the lone professional staffer. All management is done by students, one of which is my daughter. Great leadership experience.
I work for SSP too... Sarge is really just a figurehead cant say he does much. All of the work are done by the supervisors.
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Wow, that is the most insulting thing I have ever laid eyes on. You obviously only looked at the main stream media that were absolutely bashing teachers throughout the strike. Disgrace? No it was a necessity, so before you go along telling the world how charter and private schools are so much better and how the CTU is the devil reincarnated how about you get some of you your facts straight before going on that tangent. For example, lets look at how the school day was made longer for all CPS schools and teachers were not going to get any compensation or pay for working that extra hour. That also doesnt include what teachers do outside of the classroom and all the hours they put into lesson plans and grading. You know aboslutely nothing about the strike besides what the mainstream media told you.
Well, your initial statement that there is "nothing wrong with unions" is simply false. Teachers unions have done a lot to "de-professionalize" the teaching profession. Sure they have helped on a number of levels, but for instance working an extra hour without getting paid for it? Coming in after hours? Wow. Shocking. No other profession has to endure these hardships. ::)
Don't get me wrong. They did a lot to increase compensation and benefits, but that came at a cost. And part of that is that high performers are dragged down for the sake of low performers.
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When parents are given a choice they vote with their feet. Charter schools, while maybe not a vast improvement, signify the desire for a better "product"
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Yup, I worked for Steve Hayes. My sister married a former BMU manager as well. Small world.
So, your sister's warriorchick?
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I work for SSP too... Sarge is really just a figurehead cant say he does much. All of the work are done by the supervisors.
And while the university shut down Monday night, a full fleet of Limos again rolled 5p -3a. Just like every day of the year without exception.
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When parents are given a choice they vote with their feet. Charter schools, while maybe not a vast improvement, signify the desire for a better "product"
Im a CPS product. Attended Chicago Public Schools for 13 years and would not have changed any of it.
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Wow, that is the most insulting thing I have ever laid eyes on. You obviously only looked at the main stream media that were absolutely bashing teachers throughout the strike. Disgrace? No it was a necessity, so before you go along telling the world how charter and private schools are so much better and how the CTU is the devil reincarnated how about you get some of you your facts straight before going on that tangent. For example, lets look at how the school day was made longer for all CPS schools and teachers were not going to get any compensation or pay for working that extra hour. That also doesnt include what teachers do outside of the classroom and all the hours they put into lesson plans and grading. You know aboslutely nothing about the strike besides what the mainstream media told you.
CTU teachers will make north of $90,000/year thanks to the new deal they struck over last year. That is with three months off every summer.
The latest statistics show only 63 percent of Chicago public school student graduating in 2013 and that is an increase over recent years. Among the city’s 8th grade students 79 percent are not at an 8th grade reading level.
And what did Karen Lewis, head of the CTU recently say?
When will there be an honest conversation about poverty and racism and inequality that hinders the delivery of an education product in our school system? When will we address the effect that rich white people think they know what’s in the best interest of children of African Americans and Latinos, no matter what the parents’ income or education level?
This is one of the most reprehensible comments ever made.
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Im a CPS product. Attended Chicago Public Schools for 13 years and would not have changed any of it.
For every educated, articulate and successful CPS grad like you this same system produces dozens of drug dealers, drop out, criminals and gang bangers.
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CTU teachers will make north of $90,000/year thanks to the new deal they struck over last year. That is with three months off every summer.
Eesh...really?
For every educated, articulate and successful CPS grad like you this same system produces dozens of drug dealers, drop out, criminals and gang bangers.
You really can't lay that on the feet of CPS.
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First thing is first, they want to make A Profit, not necessarily bigger profits. In my view, unions have done a nice job of putting many a corporation out of business and that benefits no one. Unions will blame management, of course, but when your costs go through the roof and you are competing with a product on price, then that usually starts the cycle of doom where you have to cut corners on the quality of the product. Consumers sense that, don't want the product anymore and death of corporation is at the doorstep.
Personally, I believe in profit sharing models, get everyone on the same page. Things are bad, everyone takes a hit, things are good and people prosper. This is also how gov't taxation would work....everyone with some skin in the game. Everyone pays something. The animosity from one side paying for all of it would go down incredibly and the realization from the side paying jack would understand that stuff really does cost something. It can work for labor, management, govt, citizens.
College athletics...same scenario. You want to unionize and get all the goodies...ok, when things go the other way, you pay out as well. You make the pros, you owe X% into the union fund. You leave school early, you pay a penalty. Etc, etc. It can't be just goodies coming in, the pie isn't big enough.
I think it's also important to make a distinction between public and private unions. Private unions absolutely have skin in the game, if they push to hard and make a company uncompetitive, guess what no more company, no more jobs.
Public unions do not have this same balance and can at times sit on both sides of the table (union members or family of union members in elected office).
In the football scenario, it is much closer to a private scenario, but as you point out, for it to work you have to tie actions to consequences.
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Eesh...really?
Yes in 2016 per the new contract they agree to last year. They made $75,000 last year.
Administrators, of which the CPS has over 3,000 have an average salary of $120,000/year (with the summer off)
You really can't lay that on the feet of CPS.
Actually I was laying it at the feet of the CTU. And yes, most problems in a school system start with poorly qualified over-paid teachers.
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Yes in 2016 per the new contract they agree to last year. They made $75,000 last year.
Administrators, of which the CPS has over 3,000 have an average salary of $120,000/year (with the summer off)
Actually I was laying it at the feet of the CTU. And yes, most problems in a school system start with poorly qualified over-paid teachers.
I dont know where you are getting your stats from but my parents dont make nearly that much. 70k before taxes sure but that was one of the biggest issues with the strike, CPS taxes the s**t out of their employees. But you clearly have a vendetta out for CPS so ill just leave you to it.
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Chicago Tribune today states that the mayor shuttered 47 schools in Chicago and is championing 7 new Charter Schools.
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I dont know where you are getting your stats from but my parents dont make nearly that much. 70k before taxes sure but that was one of the biggest issues with the strike, CPS taxes the s**t out of their employees. But you clearly have a vendetta out for CPS so ill just leave you to it.
Unless I'm greatly mistaken CPS doesn't tax squat....city of Chicago, state of Illinois, and the Federal government do that, correct?
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I dont know where you are getting your stats from but my parents dont make nearly that much. 70k before taxes sure but that was one of the biggest issues with the strike, CPS taxes the s**t out of their employees. But you clearly have a vendetta out for CPS so ill just leave you to it.
Yes, today the average pay is $74,000. The new contract calls for big raises through 2016. $90,000 is coming in a few years.
That is why Rahm is closing schools (because of the crush of higher teacher salaries to come) and increasing Charter schools ... they are CPS with CTU teachers BUT they have a much different contract which pays them less. The contract with Charter schools allows them to fire lousy teachers, which is impossible in regular CPS schools.
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I dont know where you are getting your stats from but my parents dont make nearly that much. 70k before taxes sure but that was one of the biggest issues with the strike, CPS taxes the s**t out of their employees. But you clearly have a vendetta out for CPS so ill just leave you to it.
I always find it funny that teachers' salaries are targeted as way too high. But it's accepted that CEO pay must be exorbitantly high to attract/keep the best talent. Shouldn't that apply to every job?
I'm not saying every teacher is good or even deserves to have the job. There are some lazy, awful teachers out there.
CTU has done good, but also done some crazy stupid things. Like any organization, CTU and CPS have way too many execs/administrators.
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wait a minute, is a thread about Northwestern football players becoming teachers in Chicago?
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wait a minute, is a thread about Northwestern football players becoming teachers in Chicago?
Are you new to scoop? :P
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I always find it funny that teachers' salaries are targeted as way too high. But it's accepted that CEO pay must be exorbitantly high to attract/keep the best talent. Shouldn't that apply to every job?
I'm not saying every teacher is good or even deserves to have the job. There are some lazy, awful teachers out there.
CTU has done good, but also done some crazy stupid things. Like any organization, CTU and CPS have way too many execs/administrators.
Here's the problem: the job of the union is to protect it's own. Because of that unions will make it as difficult as possible to fire incompetent or disinterested teachers. That is in direct conflict with the needs of the students.
The idea of public employee unions is (all things being equal) a bad one. But things are never equal, so a real necessity brought them into being. Now the pendulum has swung too far the other way, and it's the parents and students being held hostage. So it goes.
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For example, lets look at how the school day was made longer for all CPS schools and teachers were not going to get any compensation or pay for working that extra hour.
The school system and the city are broke. It is not unusual for a private entity to ask its professional staff to work extra hours, or even agree to a pay cut so that the company can survive. IIRC, Karen Lewis referred to having to work an unpaid extra hour as "slavery". That is a perfect example of why Chicago teachers aren't given respect. They are the people who chose her as their leader.
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I always find it funny that teachers' salaries are targeted as way too high. But it's accepted that CEO pay must be exorbitantly high to attract/keep the best talent. Shouldn't that apply to every job?
I'm not saying every teacher is good or even deserves to have the job. There are some lazy, awful teachers out there.
CTU has done good, but also done some crazy stupid things. Like any organization, CTU and CPS have way too many execs/administrators.
The fundamental issue with unions is that they generally screw up the labor marketplace. IOW, they force an employer to pay a higher wage than the market will bear under the threat of a shutdown. Now I honestly don't have a problem with that in concept. For instance I think the minimum wage should be higher right now.
But the problem with public sector unions is that it is even further screwed up. Public unions collect dues...use those dues in support of particular school board candidates...then that school board makes concessions to the unions. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
And frankly this getting out of hand is what turned Wisconsin from a relatively pro-teacher, support the public schools type of state, into one that supported Act 10. The chickens have come home to roost.
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Maybe its just the raging liberal in me but I dont mind Karen Lewis. I dunno, I just feel like CPS teachers get such a bad rap in comparison to other teachers and it really pisses me off. Im tired of listening to the main stream media report such false claims and leaving out vital information.
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Here's the problem: the job of the union is to protect it's own. Because of that unions will make it as difficult as possible to fire incompetent or disinterested teachers. That is in direct conflict with the needs of the students.
The idea of public employee unions is (all things being equal) a bad one. But things are never equal, so a real necessity brought them into being. Now the pendulum has swung too far the other way, and it's the parents and students being held hostage. So it goes.
Agreed
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Wow, that is the most insulting thing I have ever laid eyes on. You obviously only looked at the main stream media that were absolutely bashing teachers throughout the strike. Disgrace? No it was a necessity, so before you go along telling the world how charter and private schools are so much better and how the CTU is the devil reincarnated how about you get some of you your facts straight before going on that tangent. For example, lets look at how the school day was made longer for all CPS schools and teachers were not going to get any compensation or pay for working that extra hour. That also doesn't include what teachers do outside of the classroom and all the hours they put into lesson plans and grading. You know absolutely nothing about the strike besides what the mainstream media told you.
why do teachers seem to think that they are the only profession that does work at night and on the weekend? Teachers want to be seen as professional and respected, but act & talk more line a line worker in a factory than someone with the level of education that many of them have. Most salaried professionals work all kinds of extra hours "beyond what they are paid for" and it's just expected. Teachers act like they want to be paid an hourly wage and punch the clock.
(I realize that this is a generalization. But I have to wonder if that mentality is picked up in college or during the semester spent student teaching?)
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Maybe its just the raging liberal in me but I dont mind Karen Lewis. I dunno, I just feel like CPS teachers get such a bad rap in comparison to other teachers and it really pisses me off. Im tired of listening to the main stream media report such false claims and leaving out vital information.
Sweet lord, really? Nobody here is taking shots at individual teachers, but rather their collective output. And the way to fix that is not to have a belligerent, bigoted leader who pulls the race card every chance she gets and makes her collective union look like idiots. You're lucky you had a great CPS experience, I have friends that say that getting into charter schools like Walter Payton is the only reason they are where they are.
Bottom line, CPS is underperforming by any metric, and now will have some of the highest compensated teachers in the country, spearheaded by efforts from a woman who if she made similar comments, with a lighter skin color, would have been removed immediately and caught unholy amounts of hell.
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why do teachers seem to think that they are the only profession that does work at night and on the weekend? Teachers want to be seen as professional and respected, but act & talk more line a line worker in a factory than someone with the level of education that many of them have. Most salaried professionals work all kinds of extra hours "beyond what they are paid for" and it's just expected. Teachers act like they want to be paid an hourly wage and punch the clock.
(I realize that this is a generalization. But I have to wonder if that mentality is picked up in college or during the semester spent student teaching?)
My grandmother, mom and sister were/are all teachers. I saw firsthand the amount of at home work, after hours work, etc that needed to be done to be successful and actually care about their job. I contrast that to education majors I knew at Marquette and other colleges. I don't think most of those people realized exactly what kind of work they are getting themselves into when they decide they want to teach
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For every educated, articulate and successful CPS grad like you this same system produces dozens of drug dealers, drop out, criminals and gang bangers.
I generally agree with you on most of your comments - but this one is patently ridiculous. The system has not produced ONE single drug dealer, criminal, or gang banger.
Those are all traits that are learned on the streets, learned when there is no parental supervision, learned in single-parent homes where that single-parent has to work 2, 3, or 4 jobs a week at minimum wage to support their children. (and I'm not even considering all those homes where the parents don't care.
Of course any private school will test better - those students are there because the parents care - but that does not equate to the quality (good or bad) of the teachers.
The one area where the teacher's unions hurt schools is that they continue to support the bad teachers. I know my daughter's frustration level is very high with the 2 or 3 teachers in her school who don't care anymore; they're just collecting a paycheck and could care less about the student's futures.
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Bottom line, CPS is underperforming by any metric.
As opposed to white suburban schools? The problem is in homes and on the streets - not in the schools.
Malcolm Gladwell did a study about learning - comparing whites and minorities. He was curious because the testing always showed whites learning more. What he found was that if you did the testing on what they learned from Sept - May - there was little difference in how much students of any race or color learned. But when you tested from June - Aug. (end of one school year to the start of the next), there was a huge difference. This is where the white suburban culture paid off. Middle and upper-class parents have their children much more involved in the summer, where the poor minority kids in the inner cities are fending for themselves on the streets.
I really don't think there is a big difference in teachers in any districts. There are good and bad, caring and non-caring everywhere. Any teacher can tell you that when the parent is invested in their child's education, that child will do well.
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I generally agree with you on most of your comments - but this one is patently ridiculous. The system has not produced ONE single drug dealer, criminal, or gang banger.
Those are all traits that are learned on the streets, learned when there is no parental supervision, learned in single-parent homes where that single-parent has to work 2, 3, or 4 jobs a week at minimum wage to support their children. (and I'm not even considering all those homes where the parents don't care.
Of course any private school will test better - those students are there because the parents care - but that does not equate to the quality (good or bad) of the teachers.
The one area where the teacher's unions hurt schools is that they continue to support the bad teachers. I know my daughter's frustration level is very high with the 2 or 3 teachers in her school who don't care anymore; they're just collecting a paycheck and could care less about the student's futures.
Why is it that the exact same kids in Chicago Charter Schools have much higher results? What is the difference between regular schools and charter schools? Fear of failure.
Kids that don't cut it in Charter Schools will get bounced back to regular CPS schools (this does not happen that often, 2 or 3 kids per school per year tops). Teachers that don't cut it are fired, period.
So don't give me the line that they are all "trophies" of "welfare queens" so they are destine to fail no matter what. Yes they have it tough but if you introduce failure into the system, you get better results.
Until then the CPS/CTU are nothing but human warehouses that waste lives and opportunity. Karen Lewis saw that none of the prison guards will ever get fired and they continue to be well paid.
Blow it up!
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I really don't think there is a big difference in teachers in any districts. There are good and bad, caring and non-caring everywhere. Any teacher can tell you that when the parent is invested in their child's education, that child will do well.
My kids go to a private school in Chicago. One-third of last year's senior class went to ivy league schools. The teachers were paid 80% of CPS teachers (that is literally what they pay) and nearly 40% of the school gets scholarships. So, some of the kids come from the worst homes in the worst neighborhoods and they do well. They are expected too.
Giving me line that they are poor, black, disadvantage and therefore incapable of anything but crime and drug dealing is wrong and quote frankly racist. Expect more from them and they will deliver. The Teachers Union does not expect more and that's why we wind up with so many criminals and drug dealers.
CPS teachers are overpaid. Simply they are not worth it. Further then insult the better teachers as the system does not allow them to be rewarded more than the mediocre. Take away incentives and you wind up with a lousy product. Teachers unions are the problem, not this liberal nonsense about broken homes.
Once you understand that Teachers unions have no interest in the students and are their to protect the interest of the teachers alone, you will understand how vile they are and they should be eliminated ASAP.
We can start with Karen Lewis
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why do teachers seem to think that they are the only profession that does work at night and on the weekend? Teachers want to be seen as professional and respected, but act & talk more line a line worker in a factory than someone with the level of education that many of them have. Most salaried professionals work all kinds of extra hours "beyond what they are paid for" and it's just expected. Teachers act like they want to be paid an hourly wage and punch the clock.
(I realize that this is a generalization. But I have to wonder if that mentality is picked up in college or during the semester spent student teaching?)
This is it. Exactly.
See people here say have mentioned how much I am on Scoop during the day, but they don't see me answering emails in the evenings...writing on the weekends...etc.
This is part of being a professional.
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My kids go to a private school in Chicago. One-third of last year's senior class went to ivy league schools. The teachers were paid 80% of CPS teachers (that is literally what they pay) and nearly 40% of the school gets scholarships. So, some of the kids come from the worst homes in the worst neighborhoods and they do well. They are expected too.
Giving me line that they are poor, black, disadvantage and therefore incapable of anything but crime and drug dealing is wrong and quote frankly racist. Expect more from them and they will deliver. The Teachers Union does not expect more and that's why we wind up with so many criminals and drug dealers.
How many borderline kids are streamed into private schools? Last year my daughter had three kids with behavioral or mental issues. One kid would just leave class whenever she felt like it (5th grade class). A couple others were disruptive every day.
Anybody can teach at a private school where parents hold their kids to be responsible. Teachers are paid less because it's an easier job.
It has nothing to do with minorities not being able to learn - it has everything to do with environment and opportunity.
And your inference that there is a level playing field between rich and poor, black and white is ridiculous.
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Public schools have to teach everyone that shows up.
Private schools have to teach everyone who pays their bill.
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Public schools have to teach everyone that shows up.
Private schools have to teach everyone who pays their bill.
Thank you - I wrote about 6 paragraphs saying the same thing. You did it in a couple sentences!!
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Public schools have to teach everyone that shows up.
Private schools have to teach everyone who pays their bill.
How many borderline kids are streamed into private schools? Last year my daughter had three kids with behavioral or mental issues. One kid would just leave class whenever she felt like it (5th grade class). A couple others were disruptive every day.
Anybody can teach at a private school where parents hold their kids to be responsible. Teachers are paid less because it's an easier job.
It has nothing to do with minorities not being able to learn - it has everything to do with environment and opportunity.
And your inference that there is a level playing field between rich and poor, black and white is ridiculous.
Two racists here ... poor black kids from single families ... their born drug dealers, correct? So don't expect them to be anything but a drug dealer. In fact, let's just hire prison guards (CTU teachers) so they can get use to the rest of their lives.
In the meantime, teachers that care and try, see Hope Academy (one of the most innovative and effective schools in the world) are summarily insulted for taking kids from broken homes and sending them to Columbia and Brown.
http://chicagohopeacademy.org/
Want to know how to fix the CPS?
1) Get rid of the union
2) Hire Hope Academy's Bob Muzikowski to run the CPS
3) Get out of his way
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Two racists here ... poor black kids from single families ... their born drug dealers, correct? So don't expect them to be anything but a drug dealer. In fact, let's just hire prison guards (CTU teachers) so they can get use to the rest of their lives.
In the meantime, teachers that care and try, see Hope Academy (one of the most innovative and effective schools in the world) are summarily insulted for taking kids from broken homes and sending them to Columbia and Brown.
http://chicagohopeacademy.org/
Want to know how to fix the CPS?
1) Get rid of the union
2) Hire Hope Academy's Bob Muzikowski to run the CPS
3) Get out of his way
Three racists
I have no idea what your point is, and no idea why you called me a racist.
I gather that you are greatly in favor of the model that charter schools use, but that is really all I understand.
If you really want my opinion on what the 'problems' with America's public schools are I can go into great detail. I promise you. I can't agree with you that the teachers union is the problem. It just isn't that simple.
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How many borderline kids are streamed into private schools? Last year my daughter had three kids with behavioral or mental issues. One kid would just leave class whenever she felt like it (5th grade class). A couple others were disruptive every day.
My wife is a teacher also. She says the disruptive kids drive you crazy and your limited to what you can do (since the parents often won't do it) and she needs summers off for her mental health to recoup. And it's only 2 months off in the summer not the conventional "3".
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I have no idea what your point is, and no idea why you called me a racist.
I gather that you are greatly in favor of the model that charter schools use, but that is really all I understand.
If you really want my opinion on what the 'problems' with America's public schools are I can go into great detail. I promise you. I can't agree with you that the teachers union is the problem. It just isn't that simple.
Racism often comes in the form of low expectations. Poor, black kids from single families have no chance so don't expect much and explain away their problems.
Conversely, let's discount what teachers in private schools do because those kids are "easy" to teach. Why? Because they don't come to school with a gun? What's so easy about teaching kids that want to excel? By this logic, Buzz is over-rated as a coach ... roll the ball out on the court and with that talent anyone can coach them, correct?
Teacher unions play into the racism of low expectations, these are flawed kids (they will tell you) so unionized teachers are doing what they can in an impossible situation. That's what they want you to believe. That way they are held to no standard (and no one can be fired) and no one can demand more of them.
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As opposed to white suburban schools? The problem is in homes and on the streets - not in the schools.
Malcolm Gladwell did a study about learning - comparing whites and minorities. He was curious because the testing always showed whites learning more. What he found was that if you did the testing on what they learned from Sept - May - there was little difference in how much students of any race or color learned. But when you tested from June - Aug. (end of one school year to the start of the next), there was a huge difference. This is where the white suburban culture paid off. Middle and upper-class parents have their children much more involved in the summer, where the poor minority kids in the inner cities are fending for themselves on the streets.
I really don't think there is a big difference in teachers in any districts. There are good and bad, caring and non-caring everywhere. Any teacher can tell you that when the parent is invested in their child's education, that child will do well.
This is 100% correct, and why all schools should go year round.
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Racism often comes in the form of low expectations. Poor, black kids from single families have no chance so don't expect much and explain away their problems.
Conversely, let's discount what teachers in private schools do because those kids are "easy" to teach. Why? Because they don't come to school with a gun? What's so easy about teaching kids that want to excel? By this logic, Buzz is over-rated as a coach ... roll the ball out on the court and with that talent anyone can coach them, correct?
Teacher unions play into the racism of low expectations, these are flawed kids (they will tell you) so unionized teachers are doing what they can in an impossible situation. That's what they want you to believe. That way they are held to no standard (and no one can be fired) and no one can demand more of them.
So teacher unions are racist? That is what your point it?
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Two racists here ... poor black kids from single families ... their born drug dealers, correct? So don't expect them to be anything but a drug dealer. In fact, let's just hire prison guards (CTU teachers) so they can get use to the rest of their lives.
Never said anything even closely resembling this. Makes me wonder where you learned your reading comprehension skills.
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Racism often comes in the form of low expectations. Poor, black kids from single families have no chance so don't expect much and explain away their problems.
Conversely, let's discount what teachers in private schools do because those kids are "easy" to teach. Why? Because they don't come to school with a gun? What's so easy about teaching kids that want to excel? By this logic, Buzz is over-rated as a coach ... roll the ball out on the court and with that talent anyone can coach them, correct?
Teacher unions play into the racism of low expectations, these are flawed kids (they will tell you) so unionized teachers are doing what they can in an impossible situation. That's what they want you to believe. That way they are held to no standard (and no one can be fired) and no one can demand more of them.
The reading comprehension thing again???
I think I said (actually I know I said) that studies show that minorities learn at the same rate as non-minorities in school.
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So teacher unions are racist? That is what your point it?
Yes!
Because they have low expectations for these kids and therefore you should hold the teachers to low standards. This means you should not fire them and (over)pay them well because you're suppose to thank god someone is willing to go into these schools and babysit them.
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Yes!
Because they have low expectations for these kids and therefore you should hold the teachers to low standards. This means you should not fire them and (over)pay them well because you're suppose to thank god someone is willing to go into these schools and babysit them.
And in no way do you think this is an oversimplification or an extreme generalization?
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And in no way do you think this is an oversimplification or an extreme generalization?
Of what?
The question is about the Teacher's Union. They are a vile organization that makes everything worse and should be eliminated. They are big problem with public education today (yes, not the only problem).
I was never answering the question on how to fix public education. It cannot until the union is eliminated. Since it will not be, we are all wasting our time.
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Of what?
The question is about the Teacher's Union. They are a vile organization that makes everything worse and should be eliminated. They are big problem with public education today (yes, not the only problem).
I was never answering the question on how to fix public education. It cannot until the union is eliminated. Since it will not be, we are all wasting our time.
Just silly statements. So you hate unions. Who cares?
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Just silly statements. So you hate unions. Who cares?
Not all unions ... teacher's unions are tops of the list. After that most Government employee unions make things worse.
And you should care, they are ruining this country.
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Not all unions ... teacher's unions are tops of the list. After that most Government employee unions make things worse.
And you should care, they are ruining this country.
My, my, and here I thought it was global warming or unregulated fracking or corporate money laundering on Grand Cayman or NAFTA moving mfg jobs overseas or our foreign trade imbalance or the runaway defense budget or domestic secret drone surveillance or the epidemic of homeless people in our cities or our national propensity to install the policy of "Pax Americana" world wide and......... yadda, yadda. And all this time it's been teachers' unions.
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http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140128/AUTO0102/301280039/Ford-hourly-workers-get-8-800-bonus-checks
As long as this plays out in the executive suite too, I have no problem with this.
Not sure what you mean on the executive suite.
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I have a vague recollection of Steve's name. We all worked for Toby Peters when he showed up from SIU in 1980 before heading off to Syracuse for a stint. Toby was the one who initiated student management of the union. Other full timers at the time included Harry Wade in the Mugrack and Charlie Potts as Toby's right hand man. During my two years in that position, we had 5 Supers and ran the Union with full authority after 4p and on weekends. Still probably my favorite job. Ironically, my son currently has Dr. Peters for class.
Today, SSP (Limo) is run using a similar model. 'Sarge' is the lone professional staffer. All management is done by students, one of which is my daughter. Great leadership experience.
Ah yes, Toby Peters. Similar to your situation, we also ran the building at night and weekends. It was a good experience for sure.
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I think it's also important to make a distinction between public and private unions. Private unions absolutely have skin in the game, if they push to hard and make a company uncompetitive, guess what no more company, no more jobs.
Public unions do not have this same balance and can at times sit on both sides of the table (union members or family of union members in elected office).
In the football scenario, it is much closer to a private scenario, but as you point out, for it to work you have to tie actions to consequences.
I agree absolutely. In fact, I think FDR was right that public unions shouldn't even exist. They are contrary to the public good.
However, I would add that my bad experiences over the years were with private unions. The issue at the AMU, my wife's 10+ years in her union, etc. A lot of really good union people out there, and unfortunately a few that believe beating the shyte out of others if they don't get their way is how it is done.....all to save the brotherhood.
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Not sure what you mean on the executive suite.
I meant executive side. I think that executive (administrative, professional, whatever) should be more performance based then they are.
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My, my, and here I thought it was global warming or unregulated fracking or corporate money laundering on Grand Cayman or NAFTA moving mfg jobs overseas or our foreign trade imbalance or the runaway defense budget or domestic secret drone surveillance or the epidemic of homeless people in our cities or our national propensity to install the policy of "Pax Americana" world wide and......... yadda, yadda. And all this time it's been teachers' unions.
Actually Teacher's unions are number 2, fluoridated water is #1!!
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http://www.youtube.com/v/FY1xaoJPdek
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/01/education/fight-over-effective-teachers-shifts-to-courtroom.html?ref=us&_r=1
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/01/education/fight-over-effective-teachers-shifts-to-courtroom.html?ref=us&_r=1
Hard choices here. I think even most teachers would like to get rid of bad teachers. But they don't want to give up tenure where then any teacher could be gotten rid of for any reason.
I don't know the answer for it.
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Hard choices here. I think even most teachers would like to get rid of bad teachers. But they don't want to give up tenure where then any teacher could be gotten rid of for any reason.
I don't know the answer for it.
But but but it's about the kids. ::)
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Hard choices here. I think even most teachers would like to get rid of bad teachers. But they don't want to give up tenure where then any teacher could be gotten rid of for any reason.
I don't know the answer for it.
If they were paid according to performance, they absolutely would want to can lousy teachers. But since they get paid on tenure, they are not interested in getting rid of dead weight.
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Hard choices here. I think even most teachers would like to get rid of bad teachers. But they don't want to give up tenure where then any teacher could be gotten rid of for any reason.
I don't know the answer for it.
Probably almost every teacher would be okay with getting rid of the bad teachers - as long as they have a guarantee that their name can't be on that list.
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Probably almost every teacher would be okay with getting rid of the bad teachers - as long as they have a guarantee that their name can't be on that list.
Who else gets this deal? Do you have this deal at your job? I don't.
It is exactly this mentality that is killing public education.
ADDED
Imagine a sports team getting together and saying "I'm OK with cutting bad players as long as you can guarantee I won't be cut."
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Who else gets this deal? Do you have this deal at your job? I don't.
It is exactly this mentality that is killing public education.
ADDED
Imagine a sports team getting together and saying "I'm OK with cutting bad players as long as you can guarantee I won't be cut."
No one gets that deal. Not even teachers. I suspect you dont know as much as you think you do about the teachers union.
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No one gets that deal. Not even teachers. I suspect you dont know as much as you think you do about the teachers union.
Not sure I agree. Out here, tenure trumps all. If you are a good teacher and don't have the tenure and cuts are arriving..bye bye. Bad teacher with tenure keeps plugging along....but remember its all about the kids and what they are learning. ::)
Which brings me to another topic. Those here that believe kids should be able to transfer without any sitting out and yet they are opposed to a kid "transferring" to another school because his\her elementary, middle or high school is a disgrace....weird.
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Not sure I agree. Out here, tenure trumps all. If you are a good teacher and don't have the tenure and cuts are arriving..bye bye. Bad teacher with tenure keeps plugging along....but remember its all about the kids and what they are learning. ::)
+1
It works this way everywhere, and it is a disgrace and the single most destructive aspect of being of teacher. It drives out good teachers and rewards bad teachers.
Earlier I noted that private schools pay less than public schools. Their is no shortage of good teachers than cannot stand how tenure destroys public schools and are willing to take an initial pay cut to get into an environment that rewards excellence. Eventually, if they are good, they get paid and really enjoy their job. If they're not good,they're shown the door.
Hards ... I know more about the teachers union than most teachers.