MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on November 14, 2018, 09:49:00 PM
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1. Speed kills. IU was faster across the board than MU.
2. IU said they were going to take Markus out of the game and then they did it. The template has been established.
3. He is the only one on the team who can consistently get his own shot.
4. Bailey is quicker, but he hasn't seen the ball go through the hoop. Joey has. But he still looks slow.
5. Teams are still going to post up Howard.
6. Abysmally bad shooting and equally poor defense is no way to win a road game.
7. I predicted a double digit loss. I thought MU would get rolled, but lacked the chutzpah to come out and predict it. I thought IU looked quicker in their cupcake games than MU looked in theirs. I thought MU was not going to handle their first road game of the year well. I thought IU's published plan to stop Howard was going to work because of team speed. And the fact that MU does not have another playmaker yet. I'm done beating this horse.
8. It was one game. I still think MU finishes top 3 in the Big East and gets about a 5 seed in the dance.
9. So nice to hear from voices that we haven't heard from in a while.
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Fire Wojo. And before you ask - no I don’t post in the off-season.
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The lack of speed is puzzling to me because with the players on the roster, I thought they could play faster. I mean we had people advocating for a press during the off-season and there is no way they can do that.
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I don’t know how to say this other than Morrow and Bailey 🤷🏻♂️
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Bailey Morrow and Chartouny are disappointing so far.
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Fire Wojo. And before you ask - no I don’t post in the off-season.
You should probably stop posting during the season, too.
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Something interesting I read today: Villanova lost by 23 to Oklahoma early in the 2016 season, then beat them in the Final 4 by 44 points to go to the National Title game which they then won. Not saying that’s gonna happen but sometimes teams are way better at the end of the season than they start. The talent is there and the most Wojo is had but the question is can he actually coach them to the point of relevance. I remember some embarrassing blowout losses under Buzz (Vanderbilt at home comes to mind) and then those teams pulled it together and had postseason success. Not trying to compare Buzz and Wojo but just saying a team with early season blowout losses might be better by the end.
Joey was REALLY solid tonight can’t believe Wojo thinks Sacar or Bailey deserves to start over him. Markus killed their biggest rally that was getting them back in the game with his hero ball. Needs to recognize the hot hand at the time (Sam) and defer and look for ways to get him the ball not try to take over and shoot fadeaway 3s
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Bailey Morrow and Chartouny are disappointing so far.
Bailey I was never expecting much from and Joe I thought would take awhile to integrate.
But I thought Ed would be more of an impact immediately.
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New Year but same old same old. BE is weak this year and we are stronger so agree we will finish in top 3-4. I think our expectations were higher than what we saw tonight.
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Well at this point Wojo and the boys will find a way to win this year — or they won’t.
I am starting to think it’s a win for me as a fan no matter the outcome.
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Woof. We need to stop playing non Wisconsin Big 10 teams in non-conference, it never seems to go well.
18-19: Lost to Indiana by 23
17-18: Lost to Purdue by 15
16-17: Lost to Michigan by 18
15-16: Lost to Iowa by 28
14-15: Lost to Ohio State by 11
13-14: Lost to Ohio State by 17
12-13: Condensation-gate against Ohio State
7 straight seasons of scheduling a Big 10 team in the non-conference without a single win to show for it. That's a rough streak
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Defense brutal. Wojo knows it, media knows it, heck even scoop knows it. Nothing has changed.
MU had 8 assists for the game. 8.
You say Joey is slow, well so be it. 18 points, 6 for 9 from field, 5 for 5 free throws. He is going to be special.
Talk about slow, tell that to Morrow. Looks like Dwight Burke's freshman year.
I thought Joe C. was the playmaker and defensive specialist this year, mmm......
With the 10th pick in the NBA draft, the Wizards select, Romeo Langford. That kid is smooth.
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November loss, no matta.
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I’m a huge wojo supporter. But that was tough to stomach.
Howard, love him to death but he is not a PG. put anyone bigger than him or 2 guys on him at once and it’s a TO. JOEC needs to start. I get he’s not great on the O yet but he needs to start just for ball control.
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Im not worried. MU always, ALWAYS has clunkers early on. Not surprised by the outcome, but wanted it to be more competitive, thats for sure.
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If we are going to do an honest assessment of what we have seen so far, we will be worse this year than last year. We don't have one player talented enough to get to the rim for an easy basket. Our one real skill, three point shooting is worse this year without Rowsey. We are not incorporating any zone still (other than brief stretches). We don't have a true point guard. It is scary to think what the state of the team will be when Howard and Hauser graduate. We are in real trouble.
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November loss, no matta.
True, but same problems year over year do “Matta”
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A better game from Morrow wouldn't have gotten MU a win tonight, but something is wrong there right now. He's not a grad transfer, he was with MU all last year. Box score doesn't have it yet, but he couldn't have played more than 10 mins tonight. Being down 15 in the blink of an eye didn't dictate inside touches for MU, but through 3 games, something is off here with him.
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We flat out got our butt kicked. Have to work on fundamentals and more team work . Individualism is not the answer at this level.
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I don’t understand bailey starting. This is a freshman in his first road game. He hasn’t done anything in first two games. Why does he start?
He doesn’t play well to start the game and doesn’t play much remainder of half. But he starts the 2nd half. He plays very poorly and iU goes on an immediate run. Game over.
How does putting bailey in that position help him or the team?
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I’m a huge wojo supporter. But that was tough to stomach.
Howard, love him to death but he is not a PG. put anyone bigger than him or 2 guys on him at once and it’s a TO. JOEC needs to start. I get he’s not great on the O yet but he needs to start just for ball control.
I hate to say it but I am starting to think Joe C is the Canadian Derrick Wilson. He isn't bringing anything to the offensive end. I am hopeful he'll turn it around soon.
I get it if he doesn't want to shoot threes but he needs to try to drive the ball or something to make the defense react and have to play him. His sole responsibility right now seems to be to bring the ball into the front court and then immediately pass to someone else. That's not super helpful.
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Need increased athleticism, better lateral quickness, more players that can both create their own shot, and, stay in front of their man on defense. MU will still be a good team this year and get a good NCAA seed. But it will need more of the above to go from good to great imo.
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1. Speed kills. IU was faster across the board than MU.
2. IU said they were going to take Markus out of the game and then they did it. The template has been established.
3. He is the only one on the team who can consistently get his own shot.
4. Bailey is quicker, but he hasn't seen the ball go through the hoop. Joey has. But he still looks slow.
5. Teams are still going to post up Howard.
6. Abysmally bad shooting and equally poor defense is no way to win a road game.
7. I predicted a double digit loss. I thought MU would get rolled, but lacked the chutzpah to come out and predict it. I thought IU looked quicker in their cupcake games than MU looked in theirs. I thought MU was not going to handle their first road game of the year well. I thought IU's published plan to stop Howard was going to work because of team speed. And the fact that MU does not have another playmaker yet. I'm done beating this horse.
8. It was one game. I still think MU finishes top 3 in the Big East and gets about a 5 seed in the dance.
9. So nice to hear from voices that we haven't heard from in a while.
2. He is easy to stop as a PG plus wastes too much energy, looked gased by end of 1st half
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Markus doesn't trust anyone but Sam. His mindset is find Sam or shoot himself. Missed a wide open Joey for a bad contested three, was constantly shot hunting instead of running the offense. If Chartouny can't run alongside him or Markus can't defer at times, it will be a long season.
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That was a tough one to watch. Not much to brag about other than Joey and even he got burned repeatedly on defense. Disappointed but not worried yet. I feel like this game represents close to what our team's floor is, not it's norm. Get it out of the system and move on. If that doesn't happen, we have a serious problem.
Morrow had some brain dead moments tonight. He's probably been my biggest disappointment so far. I've seen some good things from him on defense but I cringe any time he gets the ball on offense.
Bailey and Cain both have their moments defensively but are lost on offense as well. Wojo needs to figure out how to make the pieces fit.
Cain has been playing some really nice ball. Love how he skies for rebounds. Getting better but still not great at staying in front of his man.
Markus. Set a bad tone early with those three turnovers. But lost in that is that he only had 1 turnover the remaining 33 or so minutes that he played. Can we respect for a second that a bad night for Markus still means 18 points and 4 assists?
Sam willed us back into the game on his own but then his shot disappeared. He makes the shots he normally does and maybe we have different outcome. Keep shooting young man.
Theo also showing some flashes. Really wish we had used zone tonight though I can understand the choice. Indiana is not a three point shooting team but they were making them tonight.
Nothing worked tonight. MU threes weren't falling, Indiana was splashing, dumb turnovers to start....not even FTs were dropping! Burn the tape and on to the next one
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I could have sworn I heard Wojo say that Marcus' shot at the pros is at the point so he owes it to him to let him develop at that position.
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Tonight was painful. We were forcing the ball early. Marcus wasn't reading the defense and all in all we just looked like we were not ready to play and certainly were not up to the challenge before us.
Consolation is we have a long history of laying eggs early in the season. Gosh, I remember that Vanderbilt game a few years back at the Bradley Center. Or the Iowa game.
The lessons:
1) Forget this hero ball crap. Play as a team or sit on the bench. I don't care if your name is Hauser, Howard or Heldt.
2) To make the NCAA and be a force in it, we're going to have to win games like this as the season moves on. Figure out why the team lost its poise, fix it and move on.
3) Misery loves company. Villanova had their butts handed to them tonight too. And Kentucky was decapitated by Duke the other day and barely got past Southern Illinois. Topsy turvey season so far.
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If we are going to do an honest assessment of what we have seen so far, we will be worse this year than last year. We don't have one player talented enough to get to the rim for an easy basket. Our one real skill, three point shooting is worse this year without Rowsey. We are not incorporating any zone still (other than brief stretches). We don't have a true point guard. It is scary to think what the state of the team will be when Howard and Hauser graduate. We are in real trouble.
How do you figure?
Last season we beat our exhibition team by 2, this year we beat them by 43.
Last season we beat our first cupcake by 21, this year we beat a better first cupcake by 25
Last season our second cupcake took us to overtime, this year we beat our second cupcake by 33
Last season we got blown out at home by a Big 10 team, this season we got blown out on the road by a Big 10 team
Tonight was discouraging. I don't believe it is our new norm any more than I believed that Purdue, Lindenwood, or Eastern Illinois were a new norms last season.
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How do you figure?
Last season we beat our exhibition team by 2, this year we beat them by 43.
Last season we beat our first cupcake by 21, this year we beat a better first cupcake by 25
Last season our second cupcake took us to overtime, this year we beat our second cupcake by 33
Last season we got blown out at home by a Big 10 team, this season we got blown out on the road by a Big 10 team
Tonight was discouraging. I don't believe it is our new norm any more than I believed that Purdue, Lindenwood, or Eastern Illinois were a new norms last season.
Last season we had Froling waiting on the bench to save the season.
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Cupcake games mean nothing. This was our first test. We have Kansas, Kansas State, Wisconsin, Buffalo and Tenn. as meaningful games. How many of those can we win?
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Cupcake games mean nothing. This was our first test. We have Kansas, Kansas State, Wisconsin, Buffalo and Tenn. as meaningful games. How many of those can we win?
They mean less. But not nothing. This was a bad night. Future nights will be better.
To answer your question, four would be the max IMHO. I'm expecting three but could be four if things bounce our way.
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Most disappointing loss since DePaul last season. (not too many games since though). Yeesh. We were completely out of it after the first 2-3 minutes. Toughness continues to be the achillies heel of the Wojo era. I damn near blew my own head off when one guy on IU got his own rebound two times in a row. We continue to not be capable of playing defense without fouling. The guys on IU just kept having wide open lanes straight to the basket.
Marquette looked confused on offense which was weird. We were forcing up shots and not trying to find better/open shots. I didn't like it at all. Seemed like we really had to grind it out to make a basket.
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So many irritating/disappointing facets to this game.
Opponent BOOB plays lead all to often to a layup.
All the height/length/depth doesn't seem to have done anything to prevent layup drills.
As for JC, agree with ATL, see "Guards" thread.
For all the badmouthing of the B10 (on this board) TAMU laid out the facts
The offense is stagnant. The ball gets passed around the perimeter, almost all the action takes place outside of the 3-pt. arc, and people are STANDING AROUND!! How many cutters scored for IU? Who's cutting on MU?
TAMU pointed out that Markus cut his TO's after the first few minutes, but those prayers from downtown should count as TO's - they're the first pass on an opponent's break.
All the attention to D looks pretty silly when the first real team you see is in the 90's.
Long way to go. Wojo is going to say we'll get better (he can't say we're young any more).
Let's see how they pull it together. There's a lot of ball left to be played.
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A better game from Morrow wouldn't have gotten MU a win tonight
If by "better" you mean equivalent to a game by Wilt Chamberlin in his prime I agree. But weren't we down by 30 or so at one time? We were out quicked, out hustled and out smarted at every position tonight. #Morrow no matta
Sorry, Dish - read "wouldn't as "would". My bad.
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I am a Wojo supporter.
I genuinely have no idea how he makes it through this year. We are not a team where walkons get to play against us. Today we were that team.
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I really think cain should be starting over bailey, cain just tries to go for a steal everytime his guy has the ball but he can learn.
Overall this was a game that humbled us, a number next to the teams name doesnt mean jack unless you can continue to win and we better find a way to keep winning. Prepare for kansas
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I am a Wojo supporter.
I genuinely have no idea how he makes it through this year. We are not a team where walkons get to play against us. Today we were that team.
And today Villanova was that team. Everyone plays that role every once in awhile. If it becomes a habit this season, then yes Wojo will be gone.
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Chartouney played well tonight, solid intial line of defense, moved the ball on offense, can actuaaly dribble. If chartouney starts we are not down 15 in first 5 minutes. Yes he struggled in the first couple of games but Marcus has always been a terrible PG.
Matt heldt should be playing over morrow, morrow is bad at everything. No size, no athleticism, no skill.
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Chartouney played well tonight, solid intial line of defense, moved the ball on offense, can actuaaly dribble. If chartouney starts we are not down 15 in first 5 minutes. Yes he struggled in the first couple of games but Marcus has always been a terrible PG.
Matt heldt should be playing over morrow, morrow is bad at everything. No size, no athleticism, no skill.
Chartouny at least needs to take a shot... 0-0 fg 0-0 ft
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And today Villanova was that team. Everyone plays that role every once in awhile. If it becomes a habit this season, then yes Wojo will be gone.
I realize I am partly knee jerk. But Nova won the NC and lost multiple top players to the NBA/graduation. We lost 1 player and got blown out like a d3 warmup team. This sucks.
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Chartouny at least needs to take a shot... 0-0 fg 0-0 ft
I think that will come. turning the ball over the first three times down the court vecause you cannot dribble is worse than not shooting. Also marcus cannot see the court nor can he stop dribble penetration. Cartouney does both well. Phinisee, a freshman tore marcus up
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also cain needs more minutes... led in rebounds 4 def 3 off boards
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Markus doesn't trust anyone but Sam. His mindset is find Sam or shoot himself. Missed a wide open Joey for a bad contested three, was constantly shot hunting instead of running the offense. If Chartouny can't run alongside him or Markus can't defer at times, it will be a long season.
yep
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I realize I am partly knee jerk. But Nova won the NC and lost multiple top players to the NBA/graduation. We lost 1 player and got blown out like a d3 warmup team. This sucks.
If IU is a d3 warmup team then MU is in huge trouble
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A lot of the posts here are as embarrassing as the loss.
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Just made the 200 mile trip back to my parents house after the game. The only silver lining: assembly hall makes the Bradley center look like the fiserv forum. What. A. Dump.
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A lot of the posts here are as embarrassing as the loss.
We were ranked for the first time in a super long time. Expectations for both the newcomers and the full team were very high. We thought we had improved our achilles heel from prior seasons.
Then we got absolutely throttled in a primetime game.
People are justifiably upset over this loss. Hopefully this is as bad as it gets for the year, but it's normal to be angry and vent after this kind of performance.
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Bailey Morrow and Chartouny are disappointing so far.
Agree. All three are playing poorly. So far, it seems that our best line up may be Howard, Sam, Joey, Theo and Cain or Elliot. Tough whipping last night. Still numb.
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After a few hours of sleep I realized I'm most disappointed that we had three players from their team in foul trouble at half time and barely capitalized on that. We by the time Fitz got his 4th the game was lost. We come out and attack and it's possible we come back.
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We were outclassed in every aspect of the game. I suppose the good news is we've got a chance to redeem ourselves in these next few weeks. I think we'll have a pretty good idea of what we are and where we're going by the time the Bucky game wraps.
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This was a 40 minute advertisement for a primary ball handler next year
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A better game from Morrow wouldn't have gotten MU a win tonight, but something is wrong there right now. He's not a grad transfer, he was with MU all last year. Box score doesn't have it yet, but he couldn't have played more than 10 mins tonight. Being down 15 in the blink of an eye didn't dictate inside touches for MU, but through 3 games, something is off here with him.
Just checked boxscore and Morrow played 4 minutes. Heck, even Heldt played 8 minutes and had 3 fouls.
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We flat out got our butt kicked. Have to work on fundamentals and more team work . Individualism is not the answer at this level.
Agree. Indiana played together on both ends of the floor. We played like a bunch of guys who met five minutes before tip-off. Ball movement, ball movement, ball movement. That is how you get you shooters free.
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I just wish people would have perspective. A blow out loss in November is nothing to panic about, yet we have people here who are jumping already. Let history teach you guys some lessons.
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I just wish people would have perspective. A blow out loss in November is nothing to panic about, yet we have people here who are jumping already. Let history teach you guys some lessons.
But you do have to admit Sultan that we've seen this movie before. Last night reminded me so much of Iowa. Of course one loss isn't the end. But this could break either way pretty quickly.
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But you do have to admit Sultan that we've seen this movie before. Last night reminded me so much of Iowa. Of course one loss isn't the end. But this could break either way pretty quickly.
Sure. We also lost by 30+ at Florida the same year we went to the Elite 8.
I'm not saying we are doing that, but teams grown and develop throughout the year. People need to stop writing off the season because of this.
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I just wish people would have perspective. A blow out loss in November is nothing to panic about, yet we have people here who are jumping already. Let history teach you guys some lessons.
History tells me that opponents always seem to have their best shooting night of the year against us. History tells me our defense under Wojo does not get better as the year goes on. History tells me that poor defensive teams are not in the top 25, 35, 45 at the end of the year. Last year we were ranking in the 300's - Wojo's history and last night tell me not to bet on defense improving in 18-2019.
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Sure. We also lost by 30+ at Florida the same year we went to the Elite 8.
I'm not saying we are doing that, but teams grown and develop throughout the year. People need to stop writing off the season because of this.
Totally agreed.
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Who is this Marcus that everyone keeps mentioning?
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The sun came up. It is one game in November. The only question now is how the team reacts.
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But you do have to admit Sultan that we've seen this movie before. Last night reminded me so much of Iowa. Of course one loss isn't the end. But this could break either way pretty quickly.
We have seen this movie before. And November blow outs usually end up being one of the two or three worst performances of the season.
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I was showing this to my son this morning .. but it seems appropriate for this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/v/SJUhlRoBL8M
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But you do have to admit Sultan that we've seen this movie before. Last night reminded me so much of Iowa. Of course one loss isn't the end. But this could break either way pretty quickly.
This is how I feel. After Iowa, we went 2-0 in NYC and beat Bucky. Do that and we'll be fine & Scoop will be happy days again. But if this is another middle of the road bubble season, I'll be wondering how long we let the experiment continue.
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Sure. We also lost by 30+ at Florida the same year we went to the Elite 8.
I'm not saying we are doing that, but teams grown and develop throughout the year. People need to stop writing off the season because of this.
Historically exceeding expectations gets you the benefit of the doubt. Wojo’s track record only gets him the doubt. That’s just the way it is
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Historically exceeding expectations gets you the benefit of the doubt. Wojo’s track record only gets him the doubt. That’s just the way it is
Historically, people also over-react to November results too. Back before he exceeded expectations, in his first year, Buzz lost a Dayton team, in a game that still gets referenced to this day. Wojo hasn't done a lot to impress over his first 4 seasons, so I can understand why the doubt is there, but as others have said, one game in November does not dictate a season.
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I'm not saying we are doing that, but teams grown and develop throughout the year. People need to stop writing off the season because of this.
Curious as to what makes you think this will be any different from the previous four seasons? We've seen games like last night consistently since Wojo has been here, and very little has changed.
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Curious as to what makes you think this will be any different from the previous four seasons? We've seen games like last night consistently since Wojo has been here, and very little has changed.
Agreed. I don't think anyone was upset about losing last night, we are upset about the WAY we lost. I've read this chapter how many years in a row now?
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Historically exceeding expectations gets you the benefit of the doubt. Wojo’s track record only gets him the doubt. That’s just the way it is
This is true. Wojo has yet to exceed expectations in a season. He's only ever met them. That's fine as long as each season starts with high expectations like this one did. If Wojo can't continue to meet expectations as they raise then he will be gone.
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We have seen this movie (under Wojo) before. And November blow outs usually end up being one of the two or three worst performances of the season (aside from losing to DePaul)...
Fixed. Also, you forgot to finish how the movie ends: We miss the NCAA tourney, and are a non-factor in March.
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Fixed. Also, you forgot to finish how the movie ends: We miss the NCAA tourney, and are a non-factor in March.
Your fixes are incorrect. Some of Buzz' non-conference losses were the worst of the season. His teams always got better as the season went on. And yes, losing to DePaul has been one of the worst performances in a couple of seasons. That's why I said 2 or 3 worst performances.
Actually the ending of the movie is that Wojo meets the expectations that most had for the team by the end of the season. Expectations are higher this season, we'll see if Wojo can meet them.
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Curious as to what makes you think this will be any different from the previous four seasons? We've seen games like last night consistently since Wojo has been here, and very little has changed.
Relax, Wojo needs time to get his players into the program. This is a rebuild.
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Your fixes are incorrect. Some of Buzz' non-conference losses were the worst of the season. His teams always got better as the season went on. And yes, losing to DePaul has been one of the worst performances in a couple of seasons. That's why I said 2 or 3 worst performances.
Actually the ending of the movie is that Wojo meets the expectations that most had for the team by the end of the season. Expectations are higher this season, we'll see if Wojo can meet them.
Who are you referring to as "most?"
Is MU Basketball now an organization that sets a low performance bar and mediocrity (at best) is tolerated, while spending through the roof to compete at the top echelon of CBB?
How does Archie get it done in Year 2 at IU and punk the F out of us in Year 5?
Buzz took the longstanding bottom shelf/whipping boy VaTech program and has it with more NCAA tourney berths than Wojo has achieved at MU.
I do admire your ability to be patient, and to have mediocre standards/expectations, and find every excuse under the sun to justify our coach's performance thus far - yet at some point enough is enough.
Seeing Wojo standing on the sidelines with his arms crossed, shellshocked, and once again having no answers, no counterpunches, and getting circles run around him by the opposing coach - seen that movie many times before. Not to mention, no clear player rotation concepts, starting a freshman (Bailey), over an incumbent in the program (Cain), and CREATING the Hero Ball Markus, by repeatedly telling his he needs to shoot more, and has the ultimate green light.
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TAMU
Wojo has zero chance of getting canned after this season, barring off court issues.
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Historically, people also over-react to November results too. Back before he exceeded expectations, in his first year, Buzz lost a Dayton team, in a game that still gets referenced to this day. Wojo hasn't done a lot to impress over his first 4 seasons, so I can understand why the doubt is there, but as others have said, one game in November does not dictate a season.
I was at that game against Dayton (in some crappy arena in the western suburbs of Chicago). We looked a step slow, couldn't stop the Flyers on dribble penetration. I drove home with serious doubts about Buzz. But by the Georgetown game that January we looked like the best coached team I had seen at MU since the Al era and I was all in.
The difference between Buzz's November clunkers and Wojo's? Just my opinion, but Buzz ran brutal practices in October and November that often left the team with temporarily dead legs but paid dividends in February and March. In the Wojo era the team's improvement from November to March hasn't been nearly as dramatic. Hopefully that changes this year - we're counting on new players to play major roles (Joey, JC) and that takes time. But so far even with added muscle (Morrow, Theo with big minutes, Joey) we still look soft.
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Curious as to what makes you think this will be any different from the previous four seasons? We've seen games like last night consistently since Wojo has been here, and very little has changed.
It might be different. It might not be. I'm just not going to freak out over a November loss.
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Who are you referring to as "most?"
TLDR but I'll answer this. KenPom, Big East coaches, national talking heads, Sagarin, pretty much anyone who is not a scooper.
You're always talking about your love for KenPom. Last season they projected Marquette to finish 50th, they finished 53rd. Out of 351 that's pretty solid projection.
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I was at that game against Dayton (in some crappy arena in the western suburbs of Chicago). We looked a step slow, couldn't stop the Flyers on dribble penetration. I drove home with serious doubts about Buzz. But by the Georgetown game that January we looked like the best coached team I had seen at MU since the Al era and I was all in.
The difference between Buzz's November clunkers and Wojo's? Just my opinion, but Buzz ran brutal practices in October and November that often left the team with temporarily dead legs but paid dividends in February and March. In the Wojo era the team's improvement from November to March hasn't been nearly as dramatic. Hopefully that changes this year - we're counting on new players to play major roles (Joey, JC) and that takes time. But so far even with added muscle (Morrow, Theo with big minutes, Joey) we still look soft.
Agree that we have looked soft. Regarding Ed and Theo IMO the big question is how do you respond? You just got manhandeled inside, do you come back like Jae would and lay someone out, take control of the paint. Or do you Teve it up, and start giving up and-ones. Hope they respond well, and would even go as far to say that I hope Theo gets a T Saturday for taunting/intimidating someone after a block or hard foul. Need to get that edge back.
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TAMU
Wojo has zero chance of getting canned after this season, barring off court issues.
From my understanding this is false, MU is not sold on Wojo. Now
it would take a very poor season (i.e. 8 wins) which is highly unlikely, but he is not 100% safe no matter what. Even if MU misses the NIT; with good attendance guaranteed because of Fiserv, MU will let him continue another year to drive down the buyout.
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From my understanding this is false, MU is not sold on Wojo. Now
it would take a very poor season (i.e. 8 wins) which is highly unlikely, but he is not 100% safe no matter what. Even if MU misses the NIT; with good attendance guaranteed because of Fiserv, MU will let him continue another year to drive down the buyout.
Any idea what the current buyout is? Who was the big booster we pissed off when we hired wojo? maybe we need to go kiss his a$$ to see if he can help finance a coaching search.
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Just checked boxscore and Morrow played 4 minutes. Heck, even Heldt played 8 minutes and had 3 fouls.
Morrow and Joey waaaayyy too slow
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TLDR but I'll answer this. KenPom, Big East coaches, national talking heads, Sagarin, pretty much anyone who is not a scooper.
You're always talking about your love for KenPom. Last season they projected Marquette to finish 50th, they finished 53rd. Out of 351 that's pretty solid projection.
Gotcha. I do like Pomeroy. What I don't like is that in Year 4 on the job the projection was 50th. So, this year we started at 29. Will see how that plays out.
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Archie told everyone how he was going to play Howard. He did that without a counter move from Wojo resulting in another embarassing loss. Just praying Archie's plan won't work ain't good enough. Next coach up, hey?
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Gotcha. I do like Pomeroy. What I don't like is that in Year 4 on the job the projection was 50th. So, this year we started at 29. Will see how that plays out.
That's a different argument and one I can understand.
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TAMU
Wojo has zero chance of getting canned after this season, barring off court issues.
100% correct. Lovell loves him. A few members of BOT are unsure, but he will not get canned after this season barring a scandal.
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TAMU
Wojo has zero chance of getting canned after this season, barring off court issues.
This isn't true. If they lose every game from here on out he will be canned. I don't know where the cutoff line is but there is one.
It will be an interesting decision at the end of the season if it does end up being a disaster. On paper, next year's team should be better than this season's. Do you give Wojo one more year to prove that he can do it? Or do you get a new coach and hand him an experienced roster to give him some buffer time to find his own recruits? Depends on how this year goes.
Fortunately, I don't believe it is a decision we will have to make. I don't see this season ending in disaster. It certainly could but that's why we play the games.
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This isn't true. If they lose every game from here on out he will be canned. I don't know where the cutoff line is but there is one.
It will be an interesting decision at the end of the season if it does end up being a disaster. On paper, next year's team should be better than this season's. Do you give Wojo one more year to prove that he can do it? Or do you get a new coach and hand him an experienced roster to give him some buffer time to find his own recruits? Depends on how this year goes.
Fortunately, I don't believe it is a decision we will have to make. I don't see this season ending in disaster. It certainly could but that's why we play the games.
We say this every year
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We say this every year
No we don't. We said it year one, year two, and year four. And all three times we were correct. We were also correct year three when we said year four would be worse.
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We started a kid that has played 2 games in two years, one brother coming off hip surgery, and the other brother coming off ankle surgery. We played in a very hostile environment.
We always lose a game Scoop said we'd win, and we always win a game Scoop said we'd lose.
I hope Nova fires Jay Wright, so we can hire him to replace Wojo after last nights embarrassing games.....
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We started a kid that has played 2 games in two years, one brother coming off hip surgery, and the other brother coming off ankle surgery. We played in a very hostile environment.
We always lose a game Scoop said we'd win, and we always win a game Scoop said we'd lose.
I hope Nova fires Jay Wright, so we can hire him to replace Wojo after last nights embarrassing games.....
To be fair those two coming off surgery were the only two that looked like they came to play last night
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Also to be fair, I think the vast majority of people were picking us to lose at Indiana. We lost a game we were supposed to lose. It was a bigger beat down than we hoped for. In the end it's still an expected loss.
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TAMU
Most on the prediction thread picked an MU win, so most either lied or expected an MU win. Wojo & Co. had a chance for last night to be their coming out party and they failed in every facet of the game.
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TAMU
Wojo has zero chance of getting canned after this season, barring off court issues.
True. But his seat has a 100% chance of getting very hot if we don’t meet some modicum of expectations.
I look to someone else who posted that Wojo has yet to exceed expectations. And that just bummed me outZ I like Wojo. I want Wojo to succeed. But everything is telling me he is just an average (if that) coach...and that isn’t good enough this survive long term at Marquette.
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TAMU
Most on the prediction thread picked an MU win, so most either lied or expected an MU win. Wojo & Co. had a chance for last night to be their coming out party and they failed in every facet of the game.
They were lying. Not maliciously, but day of heart will almost always overpower head. Take a look here:
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56683.0
15/26 said that Marquette would lose at Indiana. And that includes one person who picked Marquette to lose one game (to Villanova) and said "Go bold or go home" Wasn't sure if that was a serious prediction or not.
Also, if you look at unbiased sources (KenPom, Sagarin, Vegas, non MU media) they all pegged us to lose.
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Who are you referring to as "most?"
Is MU Basketball now an organization that sets a low performance bar and mediocrity (at best) is tolerated, while spending through the roof to compete at the top echelon of CBB?
How does Archie get it done in Year 2 at IU and punk the F out of us in Year 5?
Buzz took the longstanding bottom shelf/whipping boy VaTech program and has it with more NCAA tourney berths than Wojo has achieved at MU.
I do admire your ability to be patient, and to have mediocre standards/expectations, and find every excuse under the sun to justify our coach's performance thus far - yet at some point enough is enough.
Seeing Wojo standing on the sidelines with his arms crossed, shellshocked, and once again having no answers, no counterpunches, and getting circles run around him by the opposing coach - seen that movie many times before. Not to mention, no clear player rotation concepts, starting a freshman (Bailey), over an incumbent in the program (Cain), and CREATING the Hero Ball Markus, by repeatedly telling his he needs to shoot more, and has the ultimate green light.
x1000, I don't think I could have said it any better. This is EXACTLY how I feel as well
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Aughnanure
Sadly, I believe Wojo has met my expectations every year, with exception to HE season. The talent level is not strong enough to compete with upper tier teams on a game to game basis. I believe the based on the talent level, you need a Bo Ryan type coach to make any noise.
As for hot seat, I have been around a long time Dukiet barely had a hot seat. If not for a group of former players Dukiet would have lasted longer. Granted that was a lifetime ago, but MU does not fire coaches easily. Every under performing employee in America would love to have an MU basketball coach type hot seat.
On an ironic side bar, Buzz had the hottest seat in my lifetime. IMO, the best coach since Al, was the only one that ever felt real heat.
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Cupcake games mean nothing. This was our first test. We have Kansas, Kansas State, Wisconsin, Buffalo and Tenn. as meaningful games. How many of those can we win?
With the way we looked last night getting blown out, I’d say 2 max. Wisconsin and Buffalo (maybe). I’m excited to play Kansas but also terrified they’ll lose by 40.
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TAMU
On this week's Indiana prediction thread it 40-13 picking MU. I agree, most were lying. Problem is, many have been lying to themselves about overall state of the program for half a decade.
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Archie Miller literally told everyone what his plan was to beat MU, make Markus a non factor, and for the most part they did that. Wojo could’ve planned for that, but instead we have Markus playing hero ball killing rallies taking very contested shots when Sam and Joey both couldn’t miss at points, and Wojo probably told Markus to keep shooting even when he didn’t have an open shot all night. Wojo has to get in his face and tell him to find the hot hand instead of taking contested long 2s and 3s. Joey had made 3 shots in a row late in the first half and got it back to single digits and then Markus missed him wide open 2 times right after that and took absolutely horrible shots that barely hit rim or didn’t at all. Quickly back to a double digit deficit after that. Markus is very talented and we all know that but he needs to recognize that he needs to feed the hot hand. My patience is growing thin with Wojo and I like him. Year 5 with the most talented team he’s had and still playing terrible defense with what looks like no plan at all on offense. Every team usually has early season clunkers but Wojo has really never proven that his team adjusts and gets better over the course of a season like most well coached teams do.
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I’ve been saying this since halfway through year 3 and the question still remains; can Wojo coach? The fact that, (at best) that is still unanswered is an indictment
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Sure. We also lost by 30+ at Florida the same year we went to the Elite 8.
I'm not saying we are doing that, but teams grown and develop throughout the year. People need to stop writing off the season because of this.
I think its fair to be concerned. I am definitely NOT writing off the season and I do think this team has the chance to be very good.
But so far, they've played poorly in against 2 cupcakes (despite the final scores not being close), and got ran out of the gym against an good but unranked high major.
Morrow and Chartouny have been non-factors, and that is putting it lightly. Markus has been poor 2/3 games, and Sam really struggled outside of a 5 minute span in the 1st half yesterday.
Again, I think this is a tournament team, but we're likely to get pounded again by Kansas next week, and hopefully can find a way to take care of business against Louisville. Then its time to catch our breath and figure out a way to win out in the non-con with very tough home matchups against K State, Wisco and Buffalo.
Tall task as we look at it today.
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5J's
I don't always agree with you, but nice post. I think you summed things quite well.
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I don’t understand bailey starting. This is a freshman in his first road game. He hasn’t done anything in first two games. Why does he start?
He doesn’t play well to start the game and doesn’t play much remainder of half. But he starts the 2nd half. He plays very poorly and iU goes on an immediate run. Game over.
How does putting bailey in that position help him or the team?
Probably not a good idea to start a freshman on the road. If Bailey is on he will score if he's not he won't. He isn't athletic enough against P5 schools to get to the rim. At 190 lbs. he is going to get pushed around a lot at this level. Cain didn't shoot much better but had 7 boards. If a guy has an off night shooting he has to bring something else...D and boards. If you can rebound, D up and/or block shots then it's difficult to play at this level.
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True. But his seat has a 100% chance of getting very hot if we don’t meet some modicum of expectations.
I look to someone else who posted that Wojo has yet to exceed expectations. And that just bummed me outZ I like Wojo. I want Wojo to succeed. But everything is telling me he is just an average (if that) coach...and that isn’t good enough this survive long term at Marquette.
I don't think that coaching is Wojo's issue. It's the players. We have a 5-6 of skilled guys but we NEED Athletes. We need a better mix of athletes and skilled guys. Indiana showed what an mid-level P5 athlete looks like, and we don't have but one or two of those types on our team.
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I don't think that coaching is Wojo's issue. It's the players. We have a 5-6 of skilled guys but we NEED Athletes. We need a better mix of athletes and skilled guys. Indiana showed what an mid-level P5 athlete looks like, and we don't have but one or two of those types on our team.
Then we should fire the GM!
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Then we should fire the GM!
AMEN! The cupboard is bare for Wojo. Give him 4 years to get his guys in.
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Aughnanure
Sadly, I believe Wojo has met my expectations every year, with exception to HE season. The talent level is not strong enough to compete with upper tier teams on a game to game basis. I believe the based on the talent level, you need a Bo Ryan type coach to make any noise.
As for hot seat, I have been around a long time Dukiet barely had a hot seat. If not for a group of former players Dukiet would have lasted longer. Granted that was a lifetime ago, but MU does not fire coaches easily. Every under performing employee in America would love to have an MU basketball coach type hot seat.
On an ironic side bar, Buzz had the hottest seat in my lifetime. IMO, the best coach since Al, was the only one that ever felt real heat.
Fair, but not in a good way. Marquette needs a coach who beats expectations. Think Chris Beard at Texas Tech, Brad Underwood at SF Austin and OK State or even Rick Barnes at Tennessee who suddenly has a top 10 team with pretty much every main player being a sub 100 guy.
I hope I'm wrong, but I think Wojo is lacking something big that makes a coach great.
Nevertheless, I thought before the game got fully away from us in the second half that the D looked really good in the halfcourt and Theo's improvement looks to be real. Too soon to tell, but barring injuries, this is the year to either buy or sell on Wojo moving forward. There is no hold.
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Gotcha. I do like Pomeroy. What I don't like is that in Year 4 on the job the projection was 50th. So, this year we started at 29. Will see how that plays out.
At the under 4 timeout in the 2nd half, Wojo was very animated, slammed the board and walked away from the huddle with about 45 seconds left in the timeout.
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I hope I'm wrong, but I think Wojo is lacking something big that makes a coach great.
I've said the before, but he doesn't seem to be real good at making adjustments.
I have also thought a lot about what Goose said earlier, and maybe the talent just isn't what we think it is. (Which is not being used as an excuse because he is ultimately responsible for the talent.)
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At the under 4 timeout in the 2nd half, Wojo was very animated, slammed the board and walked away from the huddle with about 45 seconds left in the timeout.
Probably because he doesn’t know what the f**k he’s doing. When he has nothing in the cubard to teach, or a game plan,he resorts to emotion. He’ll throw a fit in hopes it lights a fire under the boys as a last ditch effort.
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It's easier to coach a team full of all-Americans than a team w/ lesser talent. Where did Wojo come from?
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Markus doesn't trust anyone but Sam. His mindset is find Sam or shoot himself. Missed a wide open Joey for a bad contested three, was constantly shot hunting instead of running the offense. If Chartouny can't run alongside him or Markus can't defer at times, it will be a long season.
3 times in the last 10 minutes matt heldt set crushing screens and bot defenders went with marcus, leaving heldt as the only player in the lane. Markus never even looked at him. Horrible
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I just wish people would have perspective. A blow out loss in November is nothing to panic about, yet we have people here who are jumping already. Let history teach you guys some lessons.
Dont disagrre with you. However what really concerns me is we have a guy in wojo running our program that thinks that markus running the point will end up in something other than a traiwreck against good competition. That scares me,
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Aughnanure
Sadly, I believe Wojo has met my expectations every year, with exception to HE season. The talent level is not strong enough to compete with upper tier teams on a game to game basis. I believe the based on the talent level, you need a Bo Ryan type coach to make any noise.
As for hot seat, I have been around a long time Dukiet barely had a hot seat. If not for a group of former players Dukiet would have lasted longer. Granted that was a lifetime ago, but MU does not fire coaches easily. Every under performing employee in America would love to have an MU basketball coach type hot seat.
On an ironic side bar, Buzz had the hottest seat in my lifetime. IMO, the best coach since Al, was the only one that ever felt real heat.
Explain the Deane firing then plz
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Sand Knit
Canning of Deane was basically MU throwing in the towel. There was hardly a ground swell to get him axed.
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Sand Knit
Canning of Deane was basically MU throwing in the towel. There was hardly a ground swell to get him axed.
My point is the Deane firing is completely contadictory to what aughanere is saying
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Sand Knit
Canning of Deane was basically MU throwing in the towel. There was hardly a ground swell to get him axed.
Cords said he saw the wheels starting to come off the Wagon and wanted to preserve the gains made by KO.
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Cords said he saw the wheels starting to come off the Wagon and wanted to preserve the gains made by KO.
A dangerous precedent for Wojo.