Looks like Native Americans don't mind the Redskins nickname after all

[mayfairskatingrink]

I'll bet Warriors would poll even higher...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html

[tower912]

Yeah, this thread is going make it past the 'no politics' rule. 

[mayfairskatingrink]

Yeah, this thread is going make it past the 'no politics' rule.

I thought it was interesting since it's a thorough and well done poll from a respected organization on an issue that many MU fans have been following.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yeah, this thread is going make it past the 'no politics' rule.

What does politics have to do with it Tower?


Another poll reaffirming every other poll on this discussion.   What I like is the people answer for themselves instead of people that aren't Native Americans telling them how they need to act or should think.  Implying ignorance if they don't think the way one group wants them to think.  Strange.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If you will recall about a year ago I said several other polls were done and showed the exact same answers as this one....I know for a fact one of them was spiked and never published because the news organization that did it was not happy with the results. 

Good for the Post to publish this.

[rocky_warrior]

I agree this topic shouldn't be doomed to be political (RIP Warriors!), but a betting man would probably put his money on it being locked sooner than later.

[MU82]

These poll results (and earlier ones) seem counterintuitive to me.

But the results are the results. I've given up debating this topic because I apparently have "lost."

It happens.

Unlike Chicos, I can't be right 110% of the time.

[ChicosBailBonds]

These poll results (and earlier ones) seem counterintuitive to me.

But the results are the results. I've given up debating this topic because I apparently have "lost."

It happens.

Unlike Chicos, I can't be right 110% of the time.

For you, when you hit 40% we will let you know.

 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I thought it was interesting since it's a thorough and well done poll from a respected organization on an issue that many MU fans have been following.

The fine leadership at MU and elsewhere have told folks how to think on this and many other issues. Their way or the highway, oh and if you don't like their way then you will be served a hot cup of labels as well.  They know best.

[Mutaman]

For you, when you hit 40% we will let you know.

 

Chico =

[ChicosBailBonds]

Fairly soon mutaman will make a basketball post about a team he doesn't follow....Marquette.  Should be fun.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

The fine leadership at MU and elsewhere have told folks how to think on this and many other issues. Their way or the highway, oh and if you don't like their way then you will be served a hot cup of labels as well.  They know best.

With all due respect the leadership of MU did not tell you how to think. 

What MU said was that they could not reconcile their values & organizational mission with a group that was telling them that our prior use of native american imagery offended them.

You can have your own opinion - its fine.  Being upset at the decision is fine too.  Pretending they are oppressing your thinking seems like an over-reach.

[jesmu84]

Ah... the politics board showdowns continue.

Good times, good times.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ah... the politics board showdowns continue.

Good times, good times.

Nothing political about this at all


Good times, good times

[ChicosBailBonds]

With all due respect the leadership of MU did not tell you how to think. 

What MU said was that they could not reconcile their values & organizational mission with a group that was telling them that our prior use of native american imagery offended them.

You can have your own opinion - its fine.  Being upset at the decision is fine too.  Pretending they are oppressing your thinking seems like an over-reach.

With all due respect, when discussion is shut down, when alumni opinions not factored in, when comments that anyone thinking using the imagery is insensitive, bigoted, racial, etc, then they are in a round about way telling one how to think, and if you don't conform more labeling comes. 

In my opinion.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Chico =

 When you run out of ammunition in a debate resort to this......

[GGGG]

I'll bet Warriors would poll even higher...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html

The question of whether or not someone finds the term Redskins offensive is quite different from whether or not "Native Americans mind the nickname."  Simply put, I can choose to be offended by something or not.  However that doesn't mean it's appropriate for a team nickname or isn't a slur. 

For instance, here is another survey.  http://cips.csusb.edu/docs/PressRelease.pdf

"The Redskins team name is a racial or racist word and symbol.
American Indians were 67 % in agreement, 12 % were neutral and 20 % disagreed with the statement."

It is completely logical to find a term inappropriate or racist, but not be "offended" by it.

[jesmu84]

Nothing political about this at all


Good times, good times

I was referring to the back and forth between you and MU82, mutaman

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sultan

The argument that has been made is that Native Americans are offended, demeaned, etc.  This poll, again, shows it is not the case when asking Native Anericans.  The poll did not ask college professors or others that are so outraged by this issue.

The poll asks multiple questions, there is a link within the link above that has the list of questions asked of these Native Americans.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

With all due respect, when discussion is shut down, when alumni opinions not factored in, when comments that anyone thinking using the imagery is insensitive, bigoted, racial, etc, then they are in a round about way telling one how to think, and if you don't conform more labeling comes. 

In my opinion.

Alumni opinions are just that -- in the 90's they weren't considered - in the 00's they were considered in the decision that Wild had to make with the BOT.

You could have protested freely for the past 20 years with a huge sign for every home basketball game somewhere in the vicinity of the Bradley Center.  That is what a group of people that are opposed to the Redskins have been doing (actually for longer). 

Everything you list above though are external factors due to holding such opinion.  Telling someone what they need to think is different than not liking what people think of you because of your opinion.

[keefe]

Two of my colleagues are thought leaders in Indian Country. One, a Yaqui Indian, was the Under Secretary of Energy for Indian Energy Policy and the other, a Tulalip, was the Senior Advisor to the Secretary of the Interior for Natural Resource Management. They have both said "Redskins" is offensive. The only reason they don't waste time on it is because Indian Country has far more pressing issues.

My Tulalip friend is actually far more put off by Cleveland's "Chief Wahoo."   

[GGGG]

Sultan

The argument that has been made is that Native Americans are offended, demeaned, etc.  This poll, again, shows it is not the case when asking Native Anericans.  The poll did not ask college professors or others that are so outraged by this issue.

What does this have to do with college professors?  Once again...strawmen.

You completely misunderstood what I am saying.  Native Americans can view the term Redskins as being racist, but not be offended by it.  (Which the two polls taken together seem to suggest.)  You can think that a sports team should not have a racist nickname even if that nickname doesn't offend.  (Which is an opinion of mine not reflected in either poll.)

[MU82]

Two of my colleagues are thought leaders in Indian Country. One, a Yaqui Indian, was the Under Secretary of Energy for Indian Energy Policy and the other, a Tulalip, was the Senior Advisor to the Secretary of the Interior for Natural Resource Management. They have both said "Redskins" is offensive. The only reason they don't waste time on it is because Indian Country has far more pressing issues.

My Tulalip friend is actually far more put off by Cleveland's "Chief Wahoo."   

I have a similar experience, Crash. In the early-1990s, I was the moderator on a panel about the use of Indian nicknames and imagery in sports. The Indians who were on the panel and most of those in the audience were definitely not supporters of Paleface Billionaires' right to use Redskins, Chief Wahoo, war chants, etc.

A few of the Whiteys in the room kept insisting that the Indians were "wrong" to be offended. Which, as you might imagine, led to some interesting dialogue.

So it is that personal experience that I have used as the basis for my own judgment on the matter. I try to put myself in others' shoes on all of these kinds of issues.

I have been really surprised by these polls and surveys that find Indians to be not very offended or even honored, though. I can admit that.

[mu-rara]

With all due respect the leadership of MU did not tell you how to think. 

You can have your own opinion - its fine.  Being upset at the decision is fine too.  Pretending they are oppressing your thinking seems like an over-reach.

I thought the Potawatomi gave Marquette a barrel of $$$.  Follow the money.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thought leaders.....


 


One of the issues with thought leaders is that they often don't represent the will of their constituents.  Elitism, essentially.  This is not limited to this one issue, but many. 

I have no doubt thought leaders are not in favor of this, but that doesn't necessarily make them right, either.  It is their opinion, a minority opinion, within their own constituency.  This is typically where someone of the elite will say "well, they aren't capable of fully understanding, or they have low education, etc.".   Interesting.

Which brings me back to our way or the highway mentality.  Some of these elites don't even respect the will of their own people and denigrate them for not agreeing with their viewpoint on this or other issues.  That is why I pointed out college professors, 99% of them who are not Native American but apparently know how Native Americans are supposed to think in this issue.  No Strawman....if this poll was done with college profs, the outcome would be a direct inverse in my opinion.

I look forward to seeing the team nickname used in scores, stories, etc, moving forward...rather than just called Washington.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

I thought the Potawatomi gave Marquette a barrel of $$$.  Follow the money.

Hush

Hush

Hush

[WellsstreetWanderer]

I don't have an opinion on this as I am not even 165th Native American . all I know is that ,recently driving through the Navajo Nation,  Red Mesa HS prominently displays a large sign declaring that they are the Redskins and even use the Washington logo.

[Benny B]

I thought the Potawatomi gave Marquette a barrel of $$$.  Follow the money.

Actually, they kept their money and gave up their contaminated land.

Ironic, isn't it?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually, they kept their money and gave up their contaminated land.

Ironic, isn't it?

Not a sacred burial ground, eh?

[Benny B]

Not a sacred burial ground, eh?

If you're talking about the burial of MULAX's tournament hopes, then yes.



Which, incidentally, has anyone else connected the dots regarding MU playing an Iroquois sport on former Potawatomi land?

[ChicosBailBonds]

If you're talking about the burial of MULAX's tournament hopes, then yes.



Which, incidentally, has anyone else connected the dots regarding MU playing an Iroquois sport on former Potawatomi land?

Good one

[mu-rara]

Actually, they kept their money and gave up their contaminated land.

Ironic, isn't it?

Shoulda had Drumpf negotiate that deal.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Starting to drop opposition to it......from WaPost columnist  Robert McCartney 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html


Here's my favorite part


"Still, non-Indian critics like me can’t ignore the poll results or pretend they make no difference. Those who have opposed the team name include more than a quarter of Washington-area residents. Many of us thought we were defending a group that needed support. But it feels presumptuous for us to say we know Indians’ interests better than they do. We can’t credibly claim that 9 out of 10 Indians somehow just don’t realize they’re being insulted. Some Indians told The Post that they actively support the name, because its use means Native Americans haven’t been forgotten.

In light of the new facts, we non-Indian critics should stop pressing the team to change its name. We should drop the cause, even if we privately dislike the moniker. We shouldn’t let the name stand in the way of building a new stadium. If we really want to help Indians, we should instead advocate for better schools, job opportunities and social services for them.”

[rocket surgeon]

Starting to drop opposition to it......from WaPost columnist  Robert McCartney 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html


Here's my favorite part


"Still, non-Indian critics like me can’t ignore the poll results or pretend they make no difference. Those who have opposed the team name include more than a quarter of Washington-area residents. Many of us thought we were defending a group that needed support. But it feels presumptuous for us to say we know Indians’ interests better than they do. We can’t credibly claim that 9 out of 10 Indians somehow just don’t realize they’re being insulted. Some Indians told The Post that they actively support the name, because its use means Native Americans haven’t been forgotten.

In light of the new facts, we non-Indian critics should stop pressing the team to change its name. We should drop the cause, even if we privately dislike the moniker. We shouldn’t let the name stand in the way of building a new stadium. If we really want to help Indians, we should instead advocate for better schools, job opportunities and social services for them.”

this quote from the espn story on the poll is especially delicious-

   "Suzan Harjo, the lead plaintiff challenging the team's trademark protections, rejected the new results, saying it was an invalid way to surveying those in Indian country.

"I don't accept self-identification," Harjo told the Post. "People say they're native, and they are not native, for all sorts of reasons. Those of us who are leaders in Indian Country ... know who we are representing. We also know if we are representing a minority view. And this is not the case here. Our experience is completely the opposite of the Annenberg poll and this one. I just reject the whole thing."

because the poll doesn't reflect how she feels, damn-it, all of you still need to be ashamed and offended as i am.  us leaders know better than you and we know "offensive" when we see it.  i guess when you make finding offense in things your full time job............

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/15608840/native-americans-say-unbothered-redskins-team-name-washington-post-poll

more residents(28%) of wahington DC found it offensive than the actual indians the wash. post polled-interesting heheheheyn'a?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'd bet an Indian head penny, which I have a few, that if the poll was reversed in outcome those respondents would be plenty "native" in her Harjo's mind.

But hey, she's a thought leader and thus speaks for the entire constituency, even if 90% disagree with her. 

[MU82]

Starting to drop opposition to it......from WaPost columnist  Robert McCartney 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html


Here's my favorite part


"Still, non-Indian critics like me can’t ignore the poll results or pretend they make no difference. Those who have opposed the team name include more than a quarter of Washington-area residents. Many of us thought we were defending a group that needed support. But it feels presumptuous for us to say we know Indians’ interests better than they do. We can’t credibly claim that 9 out of 10 Indians somehow just don’t realize they’re being insulted. Some Indians told The Post that they actively support the name, because its use means Native Americans haven’t been forgotten.

In light of the new facts, we non-Indian critics should stop pressing the team to change its name. We should drop the cause, even if we privately dislike the moniker. We shouldn’t let the name stand in the way of building a new stadium. If we really want to help Indians, we should instead advocate for better schools, job opportunities and social services for them.”

I said much the same earlier in this thread.

Unlike you, Chicos, many of us don't dig in and double-down when we might have been mistaken about something.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Mu82, plenty are still doubling down even if you aren't.  Goes both ways

[MU82]

Mu82, plenty are still doubling down even if you aren't.  Goes both ways

Well, at least nice to see you admit you often double down even when you know you're wrong.

That is the first step to recovery, I'm told.

[keefe]

Thought leaders.....


 


One of the issues with thought leaders is that they often don't represent the will of their constituents.  Elitism, essentially.  This is not limited to this one issue, but many. 

I have no doubt thought leaders are not in favor of this, but that doesn't necessarily make them right, either.  It is their opinion, a minority opinion, within their own constituency.  This is typically where someone of the elite will say "well, they aren't capable of fully understanding, or they have low education, etc.".   Interesting.

Which brings me back to our way or the highway mentality.  Some of these elites don't even respect the will of their own people and denigrate them for not agreeing with their viewpoint on this or other issues.  That is why I pointed out college professors, 99% of them who are not Native American but apparently know how Native Americans are supposed to think in this issue.  No Strawman....if this poll was done with college profs, the outcome would be a direct inverse in my opinion.

I look forward to seeing the team nickname used in scores, stories, etc, moving forward...rather than just called Washington.

Those same two women met with the Sec of Education to discuss proposed cuts to funding in Indian Country. They pointed out that they were college educated Indian women. For each of them there are 700 Indian women who will never begin college.

Indian country has profound challenges. The sports team naming convention issue is the least of them. But it is the easiest to fix.

[brandx]

I said much the same earlier in this thread.

Unlike you, Chicos, many of us don't dig in and double-down when we might have been mistaken about something.

I'm doubling down with chico. I want the Washington Scalpin' Savages.

I am not offended by that name and it reminds that there are Indians out there that don't live in India.

[MU82]

I'm doubling down with chico. I want the Washington Scalpin' Savages.

I am not offended by that name and it reminds that there are Indians out there that don't live in India.

Come on brand, seriously, you stole that from me! I've made that reference a few times ... which is why it must have stuck in your head. I'd better patent Scalpin' Savages before some team claims it!!!!