Vander disses Derrick Wilson for a slap of 5 on bench...

[godzilla]

Spending all your online time dedicating yourself to hating on a teenage kid seems a bit sad and pathetic. I hope your kids never disappoint you, or that if they do, you only channel this kind of bitter vitriol toward complete strangers.

I'm guessing that the posters who are hardest on Blue, like myself, have relatives at MU (or know students there) and have heard that Blue is not some reformed good kid and is still a "punk," which is what my niece and her friends refer to him as.

His play on the court is "eh" but he's much worse off the court, imo.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Erik,

I think your evaluation of Vander is actually fair.

However, your reaction to Vander being a role player is what is off base.

Other than DJO and Jae, every player at MU is a role player with some big holes in his game.

It seems like you are mad at Vander for not being as good as you want him to be, and now it's gotten to the point where you take pleasure in ripping him.

When Vander misses a lay-up, you always seem to be posting about it. Todd Mayo missed a breakaway dunk, and we don't hear a peep from you.

You need to just back off the kid a little and let him develop (like you seem to do for every other player).

PS Is the bet on?

[MUCam]

I'm guessing that the posters who are hardest on Blue, like myself, have relatives at MU (or know students there) and have heard that Blue is not some reformed good kid and is still a "punk," which is what my niece and her friends refer to him as.

His play on the court is "eh" but he's much worse off the court, imo.

I often heard that Travis Diener was a punk. Thoughts?


EDIT: I make no claim as to the veracity of reportss regarding Diener. I just raise the issue because using "Blue is a punk" appears to me to be a false justification for trashing the kid.

[NersEllenson]

Erik,

I think your evaluation of Vander is actually fair.

However, your reaction to Vander being a role player is what is off base.

Other than DJO and Jae, every player at MU is a role player with some big holes in his game.

It seems like you are mad at Vander for not being as good as you want him to be, and now it's gotten to the point where you take pleasure in ripping him.

When Vander misses a lay-up, you always seem to be posting about it. Todd Mayo missed a breakaway dunk, and we don't hear a peep from you.

You need to just back off the kid a little and let him develop (like you seem to do for every other player).

PS Is the bet on?

Probably because Mayo makes a lot of 3's, as well as other shots, limits his turnovers, and is an equally capable defender as is Vander.  Cotton was on a roll all day long yesterday, until Buzz put Mayo on him, and had Mayo face guard Cotton. Cotton was rendered invisible the rest of the way.  Vander is a solid defender, a good rebounding guard, but beyond that, he offers little at this point. 

If Vander can put on about 15 pounds of muscle this off season, and improve his shot a little bit, he will be a productive and effective player as a junior and senior.  Right now it seems he lacks some of the strength necessary to finish around the basket.  This is not hating on Vander either...it is just acknowledging the reality of his game right now..

[GGGG]

Godzilla I have said this earlier but I have multiple relatives at MU who have told me a bunch of positive and negative things about Blue and other players. I have said some of the positive things here. Now I have no idea if your niece is telling the truth or not, but I think it is classless for you to post anonymously on a message board what she says and treat it like gospel.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

It is lunacy that this thread is running 9 pages. Who could contribute to this conversation and feel any kind of pride in themselves as human beings?

[chren21]

 Vander is a solid defender, a good rebounding guard, but beyond that, he offers little at this point.

If Vander can put on about 15 pounds of muscle this off season, and improve his shot a little bit, he will be a productive and effective player as a junior and senior.  Right now it seems he lacks some of the strength necessary to finish around the basket.  This is not hating on Vander either...it is just acknowledging the reality of his game right now..

This is right on. I would think anyone trying to say vander is more than the description above at this stage would have a hard time backing this up.  Other than I'm not sure it's a strength issue than more or less simply not having the killer instinct to "finish" whether is is near the basket or away.  When he makes a basket MOST of the time I almost feel like it was lucky, unless it is a relatively easy layup.  I have not read all these posts except for the last few but I don't feel like this is hating on him either...  Just what I see and feel.

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

I'm guessing that the posters who are hardest on Blue, like myself, have relatives at MU (or know students there) and have heard that Blue is not some reformed good kid and is still a "punk," which is what my niece and her friends refer to him as.

His play on the court is "eh" but he's much worse off the court, imo.

If true, I am shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you, that a college sophomore may not measure up to all of some adult's standards of behavior, because I know at age 19/20, I was a portrait of maturity.

[lab_warrior]

I'm guessing that the posters who are hardest on Blue, like myself, have relatives at MU (or know students there) and have heard that Blue is not some reformed good kid and is still a "punk," which is what my niece and her friends refer to him as.

/eyeroll
/facepalm


CONGRATS!!

You just used one of the FIVE LAZIEST accusations in sports commentary!  Also would have accepted thug, phony, and clown.

Your prize:  this snarky post from me. 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2011/12/21/2646951/five-laziest-accusations-sports-commentary

[lab_warrior]

It is lunacy that this thread is running 9 pages. Who could contribute to this conversation and feel any kind of pride in themselves as human beings?

CHECK, and MATE.  I could not have summed up this thread more succinctly in one sentence than that one.  I made it big, and bold, so that everyone may bask.

[GGGG]

Probably because Mayo makes a lot of 3's, as well as other shots, limits his turnovers, and is an equally capable defender as is Vander.  Cotton was on a roll all day long yesterday, until Buzz put Mayo on him, and had Mayo face guard Cotton. Cotton was rendered invisible the rest of the way.  Vander is a solid defender, a good rebounding guard, but beyond that, he offers little at this point.  

Mayo: 10.0/2.9/1.5/44.7%/35.9% from 3/1.7 TO in 22.1 minutes
Blue: 7.8/3.9/3.5/43.0%/27.8%/2.3 TO in 25.6 minutes

And I think while Mayo is an increasingly good defender, Blue is still a little better.

When I look at these, they really aren't all that different.  They both have roles to play.  Mayo's is to score.  Blue's is to handle, rebound and defend.  As we have needed more scoring, Mayo's minutes have obviously increased.  And rightly so.  He is playing well.

I think it has to do with expectations more than anything.  People expected more out of Blue.  He was a decommit from our in-state rival, a high profile signing, and is now a sophomore.  Mayo was a lightly recruited late signee, and is still a freshman.

[lab_warrior]

Right now it seems he lacks some of the strength necessary to finish around the basket. 

Do you live on planet Earth, and have retinas?
/rhetorical

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/lk-J27-L-lY&amp;fs=1&amp;source=uds" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/lk-J27-L-lY&amp;fs=1&amp;source=uds</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/3hGilSI2SC4&amp;fs=1&amp;source=uds" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/3hGilSI2SC4&amp;fs=1&amp;source=uds</a>

He's also had highlight reel dunks against several other teams this year.  Finishing at the hoop seems to NOT be a problem for him.

[GGGG]

Yeah, it is a touch issue more than a strength issue. 

[mu_hilltopper]

Showing three dunks doesn't mean Vander doesn't have trouble finishing around the hoop.   Someone with a big video library could easily put together a score of examples of him putting up a shot in the paint, hitting rim over and over.

Vander is who he is .. I doubt anyone would suggest he has played up to original hype/expectations.  He's a high-level defender with mid to low level scoring ability.  He'll probably finish his career at MU with those same traits, but who knows.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Probably because Mayo makes a lot of 3's, as well as other shots, limits his turnovers, and is an equally capable defender as is Vander.  Cotton was on a roll all day long yesterday, until Buzz put Mayo on him, and had Mayo face guard Cotton. Cotton was rendered invisible the rest of the way.  Vander is a solid defender, a good rebounding guard, but beyond that, he offers little at this point. 

If Vander can put on about 15 pounds of muscle this off season, and improve his shot a little bit, he will be a productive and effective player as a junior and senior.  Right now it seems he lacks some of the strength necessary to finish around the basket.  This is not hating on Vander either...it is just acknowledging the reality of his game right now..

Again, I'm not saying Vander is perfect. He's an incomplete player as a soph.

Pointing out the holes in his game in a constructive manner is good conversation. Mayo has been the better player lately, and they are coming up with a nice rotation between them.

However, every player makes mistakes. Blue seems to get crucified more than everybody else, and that's what I'm talking about.

Mayo is a good role player. He misses a dunk. Everybody shrugs.

Vander is a good role player. He misses a dunk, he is big a disappointment.

[MerrittsMustache]

I often heard that Travis Diener was a punk. Thoughts?

Though I have heard quite a few accounts of Diener's punkiness, Travis was a scrappy, little white guy and the best player on the team for a couple years so no one is allowed to say anything bad about him.

[esotericmindguy]

Mayo: 10.0/2.9/1.5/44.7%/35.9% from 3/1.7 TO in 22.1 minutes
Blue: 7.8/3.9/3.5/43.0%/27.8%/2.3 TO in 25.6 minutes

And I think while Mayo is an increasingly good defender, Blue is still a little better.

When I look at these, they really aren't all that different.  They both have roles to play.  Mayo's is to score.  Blue's is to handle, rebound and defend.  As we have needed more scoring, Mayo's minutes have obviously increased.  And rightly so.  He is playing well.

I think it has to do with expectations more than anything.  People expected more out of Blue.  He was a decommit from our in-state rival, a high profile signing, and is now a sophomore.  Mayo was a lightly recruited late signee, and is still a freshman.

Please don't use stats from games vs. the Savannah State's of CBB. I've posted Blue's stats vs. top 100 teams in the non conference and they are very similar. CONF Games:
Blue is averaging 4.3 ppg, 3.6 reb, 3.7 assists, 0.5 stl, & 2.3 to.
Mayo is averaging 10.4 ppg, 3.6 reb, 1.6 assists, 0.143 stl & 2.1 to.

Note that mayo is getting 25 minutes per game vs. Blue's 15. He's being productive with assists and rebounds considering his minutes, but is still a liability on offense and turns the ball over way to much.

[Dawson Rental]

I'm guessing that the posters who are hardest on Blue, like myself, have relatives at MU (or know students there) and have heard that Blue is not some reformed good kid and is still a "punk," which is what my niece and her friends refer to him as.

His play on the court is "eh" but he's much worse off the court, imo.

You mean in your niece's opinion, right?

Suggested new topic of discussion: Was Vander Blue the sole reason for the Marquette Tribune's editorial?

[Skatastrophy]

This is a really good thread.

I'm super glad that you guys are still talking about this.  We're totally going to get somewhere in this discussion today.

[🏀]

This is a really good thread.

I'm super glad that you guys are still talking about this.  We're totally going to get somewhere in this discussion today.

I did gain some ground in this thread by deciding just to ignore Erick.

[GGGG]

Please don't use stats from games vs. the Savannah State's of CBB. I've posted Blue's stats vs. top 100 teams in the non conference and they are very similar. CONF Games:
Blue is averaging 4.3 ppg, 3.6 reb, 3.7 assists, 0.5 stl, & 2.3 to.
Mayo is averaging 10.4 ppg, 3.6 reb, 1.6 assists, 0.143 stl & 2.1 to.

Note that mayo is getting 25 minutes per game vs. Blue's 15. He's being productive with assists and rebounds considering his minutes, but is still a liability on offense and turns the ball over way to much.

OK, but see here is the problem.  "He turns the ball over way too much."  He turns it over just 0.2 times more per game than Mayo...that is *one* turnover every *five* games.  That isn't really all that different in the grand scheme of things.  There is a bias in the statement that makes no sense.

Mayo is the better scorer.  Blue is the better distributor and defender.  They have different roles.

[esotericmindguy]

"He turns it over just 0.2 times more per game than Mayo", but in 10 less minutes. Although Mayo needs to do a better job in that department. That said the more aggressive you are offensively the more apt to turn it over.

My post was in response to your comment about the stats being similar, I don't think they are.

[GGGG]

Yeah, you did a good job narrowing them down to the BE season.  And that does make your point.  It also shows that they are serving different roles.  Mayo has also grown to the point that he can do some of the things that Vander can do better than he could at the beginning of the year.  (Rebound, defend)

[MerrittsMustache]

OK, but see here is the problem.  "He turns the ball over way too much."  He turns it over just 0.2 times more per game than Mayo...that is *one* turnover every *five* games.  That isn't really all that different in the grand scheme of things.  There is a bias in the statement that makes no sense.

Mayo is the better scorer.  Blue is the better distributor and defender.  They have different roles.

A lot of fans measure a player's ability by how many points he scores. But looking at it another way, if you assume 2 points for every assist then Blue's points + assists account for 11.7 ppg while Mayo accounts for 13.6 (using esoteric's stats). On the season, Blue accounts for 14.8 ppg, Mayo 13.0 ppg. Tells a bit of a different story, eh?

[brewcity77]

A lot of fans measure a player's ability by how many points he scores. But looking at it another way, if you assume 2 points for every assist then Blue's points + assists account for 11.7 ppg while Mayo accounts for 13.6 (using esoteric's stats). On the season, Blue accounts for 14.8 ppg, Mayo 13.0 ppg. Tells a bit of a different story, eh?

How dare you use the Blue-haters' stats to contradict their own arguments?!? We MUST find fault with him, no matter what rational thought tells us!