More Than One Side of the Floor

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

On Wednesday, February 19th (the day after the Creighton game), Marquette's offensive efficiency was ranked 25th on KenPom with a score of 112.2. Its defensive efficiency was ranked 51st with a score of 93.9.

Today, Marquette's offensive efficiency is ranked 17th on KemPom with a score of 113.8. Its defensive efficiency is ranked 68th with a score of 96.5.

Marquette has been playing very good offense other than the DePaul game for the past four games. We have been playing terrible defense during the same stretch. Despite this, 99% of the comments I see on here are about the offense. Half of them seem to be directed at Markus for shooting too much. Markus has been distributing more in the past few games then he ever has in his career. We are getting open looks, not all of them are falling. Yes, Koby, Jamal, Sacar, and Bailey have been in shooting slumps. We have more than made up for it with efficient play by Markus and increased offensive roles for the bigs.

Defense is where we are failing right now. That's why you don't see Symir in games. It's why Koby is still getting big minutes. We don't need help on the offensive end, we need it on the defensive end.

I'm curious what others are seeing on the defensive end. I haven't seen many major changes to the defense that would explain such a dip. I could be wrong but I feel like Theo and Jayce have been in less foul trouble recently. Is it that they have become more conservative due to the quick whistles they were getting?

[f/k/a humanlung]

On Wednesday, February 19th (the day after the Creighton game), Marquette's offensive efficiency was ranked 25th on KenPom with a score of 112.2. Its defensive efficiency was ranked 51st with a score of 93.9.

Today, Marquette's offensive efficiency is ranked 17th on KemPom with a score of 113.8. Its defensive efficiency is ranked 68th with a score of 96.5.

Marquette has been playing very good offense other than the DePaul game for the past four games. We have been playing terrible defense during the same stretch. Despite this, 99% of the comments I see on here are about the offense. Half of them seem to be directed at Markus for shooting too much. Markus has been distributing more in the past few games then he ever has in his career. We are getting open looks, not all of them are falling. Yes, Koby, Jamal, Sacar, and Bailey have been in shooting slumps. We have more than made up for it with efficient play by Markus and increased offensive roles for the bigs.

Defense is where we are failing right now. That's why you don't see Symir in games. It's why Koby is still getting big minutes. We don't need help on the offensive end, we need it on the defensive end.

I'm curious what others are seeing on the defensive end. I haven't seen many major changes to the defense that would explain such a dip. I could be wrong but I feel like Theo and Jayce have been in less foul trouble recently. Is it that they have become more conservative due to the quick whistles they were getting?

Tamu, I agree 100%.  I have been trying to say this for quite some time.  Team defense has been a problem during Wojo's tenure and it has been due to different reasons.  Rowsey (and to a lesser extent, Markus) was challenged on D.  The Hausers were not overly athletic and easy to exploit, especially when Sam had a bad hip.  And Theo is (was?) block-hungry and picking up cheap fouls/leaving rebounding lanes for the opposition.

And this goes to my opinion of Wojo as a coach.  Adjustments need to be made that do not fix one problem but create another.

[We R Final Four]

I’m surprised how poorly we defend the pick and roll year after year.

[muguru]

You know what would cure a lot of this?? A zone. It certainly would help with the foul issues. Switch from man to zone and see what happens. It can't get any worse. Run a 2-3, a 3-2, Give them all kinds of different looks out of it. I'd bet a lot of $$ it would be pretty effective a majority of the time.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I have heard someone make this defensive argument before. I guess it wasn't all Rowsey's fault. 

[MUDPT]

Last year, they “ICE” a lot of the side ball screens, where this year they’ve switched a lot more. Teams have figured out the help side and you see lots of cross court passes for 3s in the corner.

[mu03eng]

You know what would cure a lot of this?? A zone. It certainly would help with the foul issues. Switch from man to zone and see what happens. It can't get any worse. Run a 2-3, a 3-2, Give them all kinds of different looks out of it. I'd bet a lot of $$ it would be pretty effective a majority of the time.

A zone would be a disaster as a continuous defense, we simply don't have the length for it. It's a great change of pace option but we haven't used it nearly enough this season to be good at it....we just depend on other teams being less good/surprised at a zone then we are bad at playing it.

And it can absolutely get worse.

[muguru]

A zone would be a disaster as a continuous defense, we simply don't have the length for it. It's a great change of pace option but we haven't used it nearly enough this season to be good at it....we just depend on other teams being less good/surprised at a zone then we are bad at playing it.

And it can absolutely get worse.

I wholeheartedly disagree...Zones are not necessarily predicated on having length. Does it help?? of course, but it's not necessary to be effective in zone. What zones do and are designed to do is take away the very things MU struggles with..dribble penetration being one. It also is designed to eliminate ball screens/switches meaning it would be nearly impossible for teams to post Markus up. I personally think it would help them immensely.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I have heard someone make this defensive argument before. I guess it wasn't all Rowsey's fault.

All? No.  But Rowdy was the difference between a sub 150 defense and a top 75 defense

[keefe]

Yes, but does he win anything significant?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This thread is deviating from the original question. What has changed in the last four games on defense? Why the sudden decline?

[Boozemon Barro]

Last year, they “ICE” a lot of the side ball screens, where this year they’ve switched a lot more. Teams have figured out the help side and you see lots of cross court passes for 3s in the corner.

The players look as if they've been coached to keep their hands down and let those cross court passes whiz right over their heads.

[keefe]

This thread is deviating from the original question. What has changed in the last four games on defense? Why the sudden decline?

Because Wojo sucks?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This thread is deviating from the original question. What has changed in the last four games on defense? Why the sudden decline?

I think teams are getting in the paint a lot more.  As others have said, the penetration is killing us defensively.  I don't think switching full time to zone would be great long-term, but playing more zone isn't a bad idea. 

[BM1090]

I wholeheartedly disagree...Zones are not necessarily predicated on having length. Does it help?? of course, but it's not necessary to be effective in zone. What zones do and are designed to do is take away the very things MU struggles with..dribble penetration being one. It also is designed to eliminate ball screens/switches meaning it would be nearly impossible for teams to post Markus up. I personally think it would help them immensely.

Zone would be a terrible idea. We play it poorly and it takes away the one area we're good at on defense (rebounding) and makes it a weakness.

Maybe it would work this Saturday. Pack it in against SJU and make them beat you over the top. But it would not work against many teams.

[CountryRoads]

The “very good offense” in the 3 games prior to DePaul is pretty deceiving. Georgetown came in as a literal cupcake and that roster would have lost to 250+ plus teams that night. Providence and Seton hall both had us down 20+ late in the second where MU made up a lot “efficiency” on the offensive end very late in the game.

Mentally, I think it’s hard to play D when you miss open threes and turn the ball over (Providence). Seton Hall was just ridiculous that game and a number of their shots were extremely difficult. I don’t think the D will get much better. Maybe slowing the game down with some zone and the 2 bigs together could create some stress for the opponents.

[mu03eng]

I wholeheartedly disagree...Zones are not necessarily predicated on having length. Does it help?? of course, but it's not necessary to be effective in zone. What zones do and are designed to do is take away the very things MU struggles with..dribble penetration being one. It also is designed to eliminate ball screens/switches meaning it would be nearly impossible for teams to post Markus up. I personally think it would help them immensely.

Who is posting Markus up?? And going to zone may help some things but it takes away our ability to rebound and quite frankly we just do not play zone well.

Yes, we wouldn't have to switch with a zone but we could also play man to man and just, I dunno, not switch.

One of Wojo's defensive blind spots in my opinion is he worries too much about the things our offense is good at in his defensive strategy. What I mean by that is he spends a lot of focus on defending the 3 point line, because we've been very good at the 3. However, with a couple of exceptions most teams aren't nearly as good at the three as we are.

Defensively, we should be playing man to man with minimal switches(unless it's say a Powell) have the primary defender go over the top on the screen with the secondary(typically Theo or Jayce) momentarily hedging but with the focus on staying in the paint. If we give up more 3s attempted so be it but our focus should be on funneling drives into our shot blockers and limiting attempts at the rim as opposed to being so worried about PnR 3s.

[thebigjake]

I'll posit a theory.

It's late in the season. I don't think our defense is getting worse. I think our opponents' offense is getting better.

It's logical- you spend the whole season working on the same sets, cuts, screens, etc and by this time you should have everything down cold. 

In other words- everyone else's offense is improving at a greater pace than ours is.

I suppose you can always say the same thing about defense. But defense is more reactionary than offense. Offense is more about knowing where your teammates should be at any given time and that comes with practice.

Just a theory

[cheebs09]

I think Theo is also selling out for blocks more. It seems like his success rate has gone down (purely gut, not numbers based). Teams have figured out to get the ball to his man for an easy layup or his man gets an easy rebound.

This isn’t the main cause, but may be a cause. Also, are we just wearing out? I wonder if some of the shooting woes are tired legs and it is hurting us on defense too.

[Eye]

Thing that concerns me the most about MU's defense is they don't force any turnovers. Good teams will get a shot almost every time down the floor against MU's defense. Against good offenses that tends to be a problem. Still doesn't explain Tuesday night, however.

[mu03eng]

The defense was fine on Tuesday, FTs actually mattered unfortunately. DePaul went without a FG for 9 minutes of the second half.....the offense should have buried them there but couldn't get it's $hit together to do that and DePaul got bailed out by A) a lot of cheap calls and B) shooting well over their average FT%. The offense you can do something about, the fouls are 50/50, and the FTs are just really bad luck

[pbiflyer]

How much of that offensive effeciencey gain was when the other team was so far ahead and playing looser defense? The garbage time where Markus was scoring, but obvious we weren't going to win?

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

I think we are a pretty decent half court team on defense.  The points in transition off of turnovers will kill any defensive numbers.  How many dunks did depaul have?

[MarquetteDano]

I think we are a pretty decent half court team on defense.  The points in transition off of turnovers will kill any defensive numbers.  How many dunks did depaul have?

I would like to see the numbers on this.  When you look at our points per possession defensively it does not consider turnovers converting to easy looks.

Also,  even without turnovers our transition defense is not great.  When we actually can setup our half court defense I have to think it is Top 40 versus other half court D's.

[CTWarrior]

I think teams are getting in the paint a lot more.  As others have said, the penetration is killing us defensively.  I don't think switching full time to zone would be great long-term, but playing more zone isn't a bad idea.

I could be wrong, but Theo seems less aggressive on D.  He tends to give up the layup and hang back on his man protecting against the dump off rather than going for the block like we've see since he got here.  Perhaps since Ed is gone, he is worrying more about foul trouble. 

[WolfganghisKhan]

The “very good offense” in the 3 games prior to DePaul is pretty deceiving. Georgetown came in as a literal cupcake and that roster would have lost to 250+ plus teams that night. Providence and Seton hall both had us down 20+ late in the second where MU made up a lot “efficiency” on the offensive end very late in the game.

Mentally, I think it’s hard to play D when you miss open threes and turn the ball over (Providence). Seton Hall was just ridiculous that game and a number of their shots were extremely difficult. I don’t think the D will get much better. Maybe slowing the game down with some zone and the 2 bigs together could create some stress for the opponents.

This!!! Actually watch our games and tell me our offense is fine, it’s not. Our defense is trash and our offense is bad. Stats can be deceiving. Markus makes so many shots that make our offense look better on paper than it actually is.

[Dr. Blackheart]

The defense was fine on Tuesday, FTs actually mattered unfortunately. DePaul went without a FG for 9 minutes of the second half.....the offense should have buried them there but couldn't get it's $hit together to do that and DePaul got bailed out by A) a lot of cheap calls and B) shooting well over their average FT%. The offense you can do something about, the fouls are 50/50, and the FTs are just really bad luck

I disagree as the defense allowed the paint penetration that caused the free throws to occur. DePaul’s free throw rate was 62.5%, the worst of the season by MU. Hard to make a field goal when the defense fouls so much.

To put this in perspective, DePaul’s PIP+FTM were 57, which translates into 83% of the Blue Demon points in the paint. Brutal, just brutal. So, do you chose to extend on the perimeter where there is exposure to the blow by (especially with Marquette’s defenders) or do you defend the paint from the baseline out?

Perimeter-in or baseline-out are two different schemes and Wojo likes to press the perimeter as it pushes the tempo. With the Hauser boys he protected the paint more which was an improvement but now he is pressing out again. The problem is MU’s defenders are not that quick so the defense breaks down and the recovery and secondary line of defense becomes vulnerable. That’s what opposing coaches want a defense to have do to break it down: Scramble recovering all night.

I will give you two examples with Bailey and Jimmy Butler. Bailey often gets beat off the dribble and relies on his wing span to try to recover because he has a quick recovery step. Yet, the secondary defense now is penetrated and has to react and starts to breakdown.

Conversely, Jimmy doesn’t have good footspeed, but he has tremendous lateral positioning that prevented dribble penetration (see Xavier game and Holloway). This protected the interior secondary defense to just preventing paint touches as Holloway never could break by Jimmy despite Tu’s superior footspeed.

Wojo’s defense is designed to limit the 17% of the points scored and it did a very good job of that when you look at DU’s eFG% which MU won. However, in doing that, it allowed the 83% in the paint, much with the clock stopped.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

I disagree as the defense allowed the paint penetration that caused the free throws to occur. DePaul’s free throw rate was 62.5%, the worst of the season by MU. Hard to make a field goal when the defense fouls so much.

To put this in perspective, DePaul’s PIP+FTM were 57, which translates into 83% of the Blue Demon points in the paint. Brutal, just brutal. So, do you chose to extend on the perimeter where there is exposure to the blow by (especially with Marquette’s defenders) or do you defend the paint from the baseline out?

Perimeter-in or baseline-out are two different schemes and Wojo likes to press the perimeter as it pushes the tempo. With the Hauser boys he protected the paint more which was an improvement but now he is pressing out again. The problem is MU’s defenders are not that quick so the defense breaks down and the recovery and secondary line of defense becomes vulnerable. That’s what opposing coaches want a defense to have do to break it down: Scramble recovering all night.

I will give you two examples with Bailey and Jimmy Butler. Bailey often gets beat off the dribble and relies on his wing span to try to recover because he has a quick recovery step. Yet, the secondary defense now is penetrated and has to react and starts to breakdown.

Conversely, Jimmy doesn’t have good footspeed, but he has tremendous lateral positioning that prevented dribble penetration (see Xavier game and Holloway). This protected the interior secondary defense to just preventing paint touches as Holloway never could break by Jimmy despite Tu’s superior footspeed.

Wojo’s defense is designed to limit the 17% of the points scored and it did a very good job of that when you look at DU’s eFG% which MU won. However, in doing that, it allowed the 83% in the paint, much with the clock stopped.

Its alot simpler than that.  Jimmy was a fin dog, brendan is soft as cotton.  Goes back to Al’s Cracked Sidewalks mentality.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Its alot simpler than that.  Jimmy was a fin dog, brendan is soft as cotton.  Goes back to Al’s Cracked Sidewalks mentality.

Yes, not a fair comparison. But, Bailey is a sophomore and in Jimmy’s sophomore season, folks on Scoop wanted his scholarship pulled too. Jimmy worked on his lateral positioning to overcome his footspeed weakness to make it a strength by positioning.

My main point being, Wojo schemes to defend in space, Buzz is to prevent paint touches. Both players have strengths and weaknesses, but the college schemes they play(ed) in, either exposed them more or utilized them better, depending on their coach’s  scheme. I mean, UW players aren’t the most athletic but there they are near the top almost every year because of scheme.

[cheebs09]

Yes, not a fair comparison. But, Bailey is a sophomore and in Jimmy’s sophomore season, folks on Scoop wanted his scholarship pulled too. Jimmy worked on his lateral positioning to overcome his footspeed weakness to make it a strength by positioning.

My main point being, Wojo schemes to defend in space, Buzz is to prevent paint touches. Both players have strengths and weaknesses, but the college schemes they play(ed) in, either exposed them more or utilized them better, depending on their coach’s  scheme. I mean, UW players aren’t the most athletic but there they are near the top almost every year because of scheme.

I think by this time in his first year, people realized Jimmy would be a pretty good player. It was the early non-conference schedule that quote came out. Granted, I don’t think anyone guessed he be as good as he is now.

[mu03eng]

I disagree as the defense allowed the paint penetration that caused the free throws to occur. DePaul’s free throw rate was 62.5%, the worst of the season by MU. Hard to make a field goal when the defense fouls so much.

To put this in perspective, DePaul’s PIP+FTM were 57, which translates into 83% of the Blue Demon points in the paint. Brutal, just brutal. So, do you chose to extend on the perimeter where there is exposure to the blow by (especially with Marquette’s defenders) or do you defend the paint from the baseline out?

Perimeter-in or baseline-out are two different schemes and Wojo likes to press the perimeter as it pushes the tempo. With the Hauser boys he protected the paint more which was an improvement but now he is pressing out again. The problem is MU’s defenders are not that quick so the defense breaks down and the recovery and secondary line of defense becomes vulnerable. That’s what opposing coaches want a defense to have do to break it down: Scramble recovering all night.

I will give you two examples with Bailey and Jimmy Butler. Bailey often gets beat off the dribble and relies on his wing span to try to recover because he has a quick recovery step. Yet, the secondary defense now is penetrated and has to react and starts to breakdown.

Conversely, Jimmy doesn’t have good footspeed, but he has tremendous lateral positioning that prevented dribble penetration (see Xavier game and Holloway). This protected the interior secondary defense to just preventing paint touches as Holloway never could break by Jimmy despite Tu’s superior footspeed.

Wojo’s defense is designed to limit the 17% of the points scored and it did a very good job of that when you look at DU’s eFG% which MU won. However, in doing that, it allowed the 83% in the paint, much with the clock stopped.

I 100% agree with you that we have the wrong defensive stratagem. I think Wojo is most afraid defensively of the things that MU does really well offensively. He guards the 3 and the perimeter too aggressively which opens of interior drives and skip passes and the secondary defenders collapse. He absolutely needs to build the defense from the rim out, especially with Theo John involved. Why he doesn't is a little baffling to me, but maybe he just has blinders to the flaw in his approach.

[Blackhat]

Wojo hasn’t shown the capacity to grow as a defensive coach, to become an all around good coach.  I was hoping he would by now.

Over the years, Buzz’s teams would have short little runs of bad defense but he was able to show the capacity to tighten it up and improve our d midstream.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

I 100% agree with you that we have the wrong defensive stratagem. I think Wojo is most afraid defensively of the things that MU does really well offensively. He guards the 3 and the perimeter too aggressively which opens of interior drives and skip passes and the secondary defenders collapse. He absolutely needs to build the defense from the rim out, especially with Theo John involved. Why he doesn't is a little baffling to me, but maybe he just has blinders to the flaw in his approach.

U realize this post is completely contradictory?
The kicks n skip passes are because help side is sagged in to help against drives.  Which opens up the skip passes n open 3s

[mu03eng]

U realize this post is completely contradictory?
The kicks n skip passes are because help side is sagged in to help against drives.  Which opens up the skip passes n open 3s

Its absolutely not.

The help defender (typically Jayce or Theo) is pressuring on the perimeter instead of sagging, which forces the wing defender deeper into the lane to assist on the drive leaving a bigger gap to the corner than if we left our rim protectors closer to the lane.

Go back and watch the Seton Hall game, Cain and Bailey had 20 feet to close out on corner 3s instead of 10-15 feet because we were putting so much pressure on the perimeter.

[SaveOD238]

Wojo hasn’t shown the capacity to grow as a defensive coach, to become an all around good coach.  I was hoping he would by now.

Over the years, Buzz’s teams would have short little runs of bad defense but he was able to show the capacity to tighten it up and improve our d midstream.

Here are Marquette's AdjD ranks on Kenpom in the Wojo years: 69 and 88 in the empty cupboard years, 162 and 188 in the Rowsey years, 45 and 68 the last two.

Compare that to Buzz whose teams all ended between 45 and 62 in AdjD (with the exception of climbing to 14 in 2012).

So Wojo has brought the team defense up to roughly the Buzz average.  We've had some clunkers in the last few weeks, but I think we can expect that the typical Wojo team will be top 20 offense and top 70 defense moving forward (unless he tries starting two sub-6' guards again).

That's good but not great.  It will be enough to send us to the tournament most years.  But Wojo still needs to show that he can lead a team to a top 30 defense to take us to the next level.