Question about Crean

[jtsanto]

I know I might get ripped for looking at the past, but I had a debate the other night in South Bend with an IU fan. He said that Crean will win them a Nation title. I said that I am not so sure about that. My feelings are that Crean did a great job of putting us on the map, but that he was not a good big game coach. I know he took us to the Final Four, but I think that was more Wade than Crean. So my true question is does anyone else feel that Crean took us as far as he could, and that he is not a good big game coach?

[lurch91]

I think Crean took us as far as HE thought he could.  Crean had problem recruiting big men to Marquette, but I think Crean felt that was a limitation of Marquette and not him.

Whether or not he can win a National Title at IU, we wont know for another few years as it will take him that long to get the IU program back up and running.

Crean really helped put the Deane days behind us at Marquette, but I'm not sold that he's all that the IU fans think he is.

[NavinRJohnson]

I do believe he took MU as far as HE could - and perhaps that is as far as MU can go period. Very small sample, but seeing how Buzz has recruited thus far, I have my doubts. I think Crean is a great builder and marketeer, at IU we will most assuredly find out if he is a good finisher. I believe the jury is very much still out on that.

One thing is for sure, 5 NCAA tournament wins in 9 years is not going to cut it at IU. Even given the present state of the program he inherited, I'm not convinced 5 wins in 5 years will get it done. He had a ton of well deserved good will to fall back on here - what he accomplished getting MU back to the FF, Big East, McGuire Center. He was integral to all of those things and received a lot of much deserved slack as a result. The money, the conference, the facilities, etc...all of those things were already in place when he arrived at IU, so his success or failure will come down to one thing, and one thing only - winning, particularly in March.

There are no excuses and nothing to hold him back. I think a National Championship is possible for him there, and while I don't think he necessarily has to win one, he damn well better have them in a position to compete for win within the next 3-4 years, or I think things are going to become rather unpleasant.

Will he get it done? I honestly don't know.

[mosarsour]

I think Crean took us as far as HE thought he could.  Crean had problem recruiting big men to Marquette, but I think Crean felt that was a limitation of Marquette and not him.

Whether or not he can win a National Title at IU, we wont know for another few years as it will take him that long to get the IU program back up and running.

Crean really helped put the Deane days behind us at Marquette, but I'm not sold that he's all that the IU fans think he is.

Those Deane years weren't THAT bad. We always managed to put together a competitive roster under Coach Deane...Wardle, Hutchins, Cliff, Jon Harris, Nnamaka, Lovette, Henry, Barone, and my personal favorite player of that era, John Polonowski.

[MR.HAYWARD]

This is IU's problem as I see it.  First of all, I hate Crean hated the man since about his 2nd or 3rd year at MU the more I got to see what he was all about.  Just to put that on the table.  Actually, hated him even more for his coaching than his peronality, I thought and still think he is an absolutely horrible basketball coach.  Works real hard but is absolutely an idiot when it comes to basketball.  I truly mean that.    

Anyway this is Crean's and Indiana's problem as I see it.  First of all as much as I dislike the man and think he is a poor coach he is really great at PR and making sure things are done within the confines of the NCAA.  They will be a clean hard working program.  Right now that is exactly what IU needs.  They hired an infinitely better coach 3 yeras ago and that is exactly what they did not need.  Crean is the old analogy of hard work can get you a long way despite your lack of talent.

Problem.... 3 years from now is there are other programs in the B10 and Nation that have hard working coaches that have great coaching ability.  This could be alleviated by Crean but he will not listen to anyone else.  How many times did MU fans pine for a Tex Winter type sage for Crean.  He hired them in Panaggio and Sichting, yet those guys after being ignore and mistreated hit the door at the first opportunity.  At the ND game Dale Layer(a D1 head coach for 20+ years) diagrammed a play during a time out as Buzz watched.  That would never never happen under Crean.  Part of building a great organization is assessing your areas of weakness and bringing in help in those areas.  Crean wont do that he only wants minions and that really hurts him.  He probably realizes this but cannot help himself.  We all know what his massive turnover did to his recruitng and massive player turnover has done to always having a young rebuilding team.  How many starters transferred?, that is almost unheard of but was commonplace at MU.    

Nontheless, in 3-4 year timeframe IU will be respectable again.  But look at his recruiting.  Is it any better than Purdues's, MSu's, OSU's, UI's, and IMO those 4 guys are significantly superior coaches than Crean.  So what does that get IU in 3-4 years a top 1/3 type Big Ten team?  And I think that is about what he will do at IU.  Another thing to consider on the national stage is what type of talent is the Big Ten getting relative to the Big East, ACC, PAc 10 and SEC, and B12.  Apart from OSU and MSU who else and when has a Big Ten teamed signed a McDonald's AA.  How many players are going to the NBA from Big Ten schools?  Lets face it the Big Ten is a big slow white boy conference of mostly farm boys.  Same reason a team like Wisconsin that has dominated the Big Ten over the last 4-5 years is an early round knockout every NCAA.  Crean must recruit to the level of an MSU or an OSU. Unless he gets their type of talent they cannot compete on the national stage.  His roster is full at IU for the next 3-4 years unless he runs people off like he did at MU and he has no McDonald's AA commits that I am aware of.  A collection of top 50-100 types will get you in the top 25 but Duke, UConn, UNC, UCLA, etc start 3-4-5 McDonalds' AA's.  

So at the end of the day in 4-5-6-7 years if he is having top 4-5 Big Ten Finishes and is a first second or even third round knockout in the NCAA, will IU fans grow restless?  This is a fanbase that is already calling for numerous Big Ten and National Championships under Crean.  How long are they willing to wait?.  I see real disappointment setting in around year 5-6.  Peter's principle at work coupled with the fact that national title winning type talent is not very interested in playing in the Big Ten.  

On a side not how many times over the years did MU hold the ball under Crean for the last shot and end up not even getting a shot off?  The percentage was disturbing.  The Northwestern game last night I watched the last minute or two was vintage Crean.  His mania really rattles his players,  His players play nervous.  Will never forget the MU/Louisville game where Dameon MAson said Crean changed the play 3 times between the end of the timeout and the inbounds and the palce was going crazy no one could hear or knew what to do.  Vintage Crean panicked coach = panicked players.  Remember Dameon Mason 2 year starter top 30 recruit?...transferred.

[Hards Alumni]

I completely agree with everything Hayward said.

spot on dude.

good recruiter, average game coach, amazing PR guy.

In summary, he will rebuild IU basketball to a respectable team and then will get fired for not winning enough when it is back on track.

In the end, IU will use him, and he will feel used when they can him.

[rocky_warrior]

My feelings are that Crean did a great job of putting us on the map, but that he was not a good big game coach.

Funny, I mostly agree with you, except I think he (usually) thrived in the big games.  It was the games against equal or mediocre coaching/talent that he seemed to lose too often.  He obviously won a lot of those, but IMO he lost too many.

[mu-rara]

Funny, I mostly agree with you, except I think he (usually) thrived in the big games.  It was the games against equal or mediocre coaching/talent that he seemed to lose too often.  He obviously won a lot of those, but IMO he lost too many.

Crean won his fair share of "big" games.  He usually had a good plan for big games.  If the opposing coach adjusted appropiately, Crean would fizzle.  If the other coach was a rockhead,  MU won.  ( I almost said we).

[lurch91]

Wardle, Hutchins, Cliff, Jon Harris, Nnamaka, Lovette, Henry, Barone, and my personal favorite player of that era, John Polonowski.

All fine student athletes, but what did Deane net us?  A NIT Finals Runner-up with KO's players?  A commitment that Marquette could never regain national relavance or prominence? 

[Shack]

Agree 100% with Hayward. 

Except Dameon Mason sucked at LSU as well, so it appears he was a very overrated player to begin with.   Wes Matthews on the other hand is a different story... highly rated rcruit that was held back under Crean and now you can see what we all expected after Crean left. 

[mosarsour]

All fine student athletes, but what did Deane net us?  A NIT Finals Runner-up with KO's players?  A commitment that Marquette could never regain national relavance or prominence? 

What did Crean net us without DWade and Robert Jackson...1 NCAA tournament win? Is it me, or do we continue to have the same debate over and over again. The point I was trying to make was that this team was still pretty successful after the KO years under Deane.

[mug644]

In summary, he will rebuild IU basketball to a respectable team and then will get fired for not winning enough when it is back on track.

In the end, IU will use him, and he will feel used when they can him.

I've heard that a few times, that IU will fire Crean. I don't see that happening. I think that Crean realized that he might've reached his limit here, and he was sensing that there were more and more voices saying that maybe he wasn't cutting it anymore. He's smart enough to know when to cut out, and he was fortunate that the IU job came up.

I'm guessing the same thing might happen at IU. Problem is that IU is/was perceived as a top-notch program, so where does he go to? Well, look at Tubby Smith. He saw the writing on the wall at Kentucky and got out, and is happy and thriving at Minnesota.

[jmayer1]

What did Crean net us without DWade and Robert Jackson...1 NCAA tournament win? Is it me, or do we continue to have the same debate over and over again. The point I was trying to make was that this team was still pretty successful after the KO years under Deane.

Crean netted MU 5 NCAA appearances with his players (Cordell was the only real significant holdover on the first NCAA team).

Deane neeted 0 NCAA appearance with his players (only got there with KO's).

[jmayer1]

Remember Dameon Mason 2 year starter top 30 recruit?...transferred.

Mason finished 71 in the final RSCI rankings for the class of 2003.  Never let facts get in the way of your arguement MR. HAYWARD.

http://www.rscihoops.com/

It's too bad Mason left as we didn't have anybody to replace him and he really flourished at LSU.

The only real significant guy that left and was really missed was ODB.

[MU B2002]

The only real significant guy that left and was really missed was ODB.

Am I remembering correctly that he ended up at UNLV?

[StillAWarrior]

Nice post Hayward.

I think this team's performance has really illustrated some of Crean's coaching deficiencies.  Granted, they're all a year older and more experienced, but this team is really playing well.  I shouldn't admit this here, because I'm sure that someone will quote this back to me in the future, but I have nowhere near the basketball knowledge or expertise as many on this board.  I never really played in school, but I watch a lot and I have coached my kids' teams a little (but probably not too well -- I retired to let better coaches teach them).  But, even I was always troubled by Crean's seeming inability to make halftime adjustments (or adjustments on the fly).  I'm not saying I knew what adjustments needed to be made, but I did notice that the team didn't seem to fix things in the second half.  I have been very happy with this year's team because they seem to come out of the locker room and play better.  Something is going on at halftime, and it's helping the team.  Also, this team is just a hell of a lot of fun to watch.  Sure, winning cures a lot of ills, but these kids are entertaining.

[HoopsMalone]

I have had similar experiences with my friends from IU.  They think he is such an amazing coach.  I will say that he is one of the best motivators in country, a great PR guy, and you can count on him to work hard.  

However, his recruiting is very overrated.  He never really had a great recruting class besides the seniors right now.  I don't know how you can pick up Amoroso, Kinsella, etc. and be considered a top recruiter.  Two of his highest rated recruits, Merrit and Mason, were busts.  Those guys were supposed to make the NBA.  Diener and Novak are Wisconsin guys who might have come to Marquette no matter who was the coach.  So basically, he had a lucky recruit in Wade, the three senior guards, and got Lazar.  (I suppose you could count Tyshawn Taylor).  I am very happy to have those players, but that is all in 9 years.  Also, he does not exactly have 5 -star recruits lining up to play for his elite program (though he has a pretty good class).  

Also, as far as games, you always knew his guys would be prepared.  However there were no games where I think that he made an in-game decision where we won because of him.  I cannot think of a substitution he made or defenseive match-up that I think won games.  

In the end, though, we all need to be thankful to Crean.  He got the University to build the Al and got us into the Big East.  We now have facilities to recruit top players which may have never happened under another coach.

Also, Crean brought a swagger to MU that has not been seen in years.  He was cocky, but we needed to develop a winning and confident attitude.

Indiana is lucky to have him, but I know that they expect too much out of him.  Hopefully he will get the talent to succeed.  I have no reason to want him to fail, just want the Indiana fans to know what they have.

[AlumKCof93]

Deane only coached at MU for 5 years, therefore he only had one season to get "his players" to the NCAA's.

The Deane years were good, until the end.  When he left, Deane won 100 games in his 5 years.  For firing him, Cords was lit up by the press.  But Cords knew the program was in a steep decline due to Deane's poor recruiting and made the move to hire Crean.  It was a great move by Cords, for Crean, and for MU.  

[jmayer1]

Am I remembering correctly that he ended up at UNLV?

Yep, would have been great to have another weapon on the final four team (though I don't think it would have made much of a difference against Kansas).  However, MU would have been much better his (and Travis') senior year if he had stayed and Travis didn't get hurt.  I highly doubt MU would have missed the tourney that year (they might not have either if Travis didn't get hurt).

http://media.nba.com/draft2005/profiles/OdarteyBlankson.html

Btw, I should note I agreed with some of Hayward's post.  I think Crean did a really good job at MU but his departure might have been perfect timing for both parties.

[Badgerhater]

I had no problem with Crean leaving because I think very few college coaches should remain at a school for more the 7-8 years.  Lots of burnout on both ends.   Change can work well for both parties involved.

[Hards Alumni]

Yep, would have been great to have another weapon on the final four team (though I don't think it would have made much of a difference against Kansas).  However, MU would have been much better his (and Travis') senior year if he had stayed and Travis didn't get hurt.  I highly doubt MU would have missed the tourney that year (they might not have either if Travis didn't get hurt).

http://media.nba.com/draft2005/profiles/OdarteyBlankson.html

Btw, I should note I agreed with some of Hayward's post.  I think Crean did a really good job at MU but his departure might have been perfect timing for both parties.

ODB was the same class as Merrit, Wade, et. al... he was a freshman in 2000.

Diener was a freshman in 2001.

[Sir Lawrence]

    Diener and Novak are Wisconsin guys who might have come to Marquette no matter who was the coach.  

Never, ever assume any kid will go to MU just because he's from Wisconsin.  Neither of those two even went to Catholic high schools, where at least some kids will get a balanced perspective of MU v Wisconsin.

[LastWarrior]

IMHO, Crean was never a good x's & o's coach and was pretty poor at game strategy.  Yes... I said this even when he was at MU.  Also, here comes the shot, I think his ego is too big to get someone on the bench that can help him with it.  That said, I do think that Crean will take IU back to competing for the big ten on an annual basis.  Anything less than that is failure with the talent in state and the tradition of IU.

[jmayer1]

ODB was the same class as Merrit, Wade, et. al... he was a freshman in 2000.

Diener was a freshman in 2001.

You're right, total brain fart.  For some reason I was thinking the year after the Final Four was TD's senior year.  What I should have said was I think MU might have made the tournament those two years if ODB was still around the first year and TD didn't get hurt the end of the second year.

[Hards Alumni]

ODB was easily my favorite player my freshman year.  When I heard he was transferring, I wondered what Crean could have done to run him out of town.