UConn Thoughts on the BEast

[CTWarrior]

I know a lot of UConn fans, and they'd all rather be in the current Big East the current AAC.  But they look at that as better of two awful options.  They desperately want to be in the ACC.  UConn has a near impossible task of being good in football, as Connecticut high schools simply do not produce football players, and UConn is not an attractive option for the 2 or 3 big time recruits from the state each year.  You need a core of guys in your backyard for football, after which you fill out with regional and national recruits.  UConn's football core is the leftovers from NY and NJ after the big football schools get their recruits.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Louisville is a better athletic program by a long shot.  In retrospect it was an obvious choice. 

And I don't think the ACC is expanding anytime soon.  They already have 14 members and Notre Dame as an associate.  The only conference that I think is looking at expansion is the Big 12, and since it would be highly expensive, I don't think they'll be taking any members from the ACC.

Louisville has better athletic programs than UConn?
Football no doubt is way better, and that's the big money one for sure, but men's basketball is equal with UConn probably being a miniscule better the last 25 years.  Women's basketball - no contest.  In Olympic sports at least UConn has won national championships in men's soccer & women's field hockey.  Even the UConn baseball team has produced recent major leaguers like Rajai Davis, Mike Olt & George Springer.  The UConn hockey team is going to be a hit, despite that not really mattering in the conference shuffle (except for maybe the Bog 10?).

From what I read, Boston College wants to be "New England's Team" and they think UConn threatens that.  Which doesn't really make sense since BC just welcomed them to Hockey East.

The Hartford TV market is still larger than Louisville.  It sure seems like no one school delivers New York City TV market.  The old Big East did because it had a tag-team of NYC-area schools.  Syracuse gets the ACC in the market, but not the market.  Same with Rutgers (who do also deliver 3 to 4-times as many cable TV paying eyeballs as Connecticut ever could.)  UConn is the only major school still out there that technically is in the New York TV as Fairfield County, CT is rolled in the NYC TV market.  Besides over-hyping the NYC connection, and doing everything to gain AAU membership, it's most likely all-for-naught other than turning their football team around and I reluctantly agree that may not even be enough?

[GGGG]

Louisville has better athletic programs than UConn?
Football no doubt is way better, and that's the big money one for sure, but men's basketball is equal with UConn probably being a miniscule better the last 25 years.  Women's basketball - no contest.  In Olympic sports at least UConn has won national championships in men's soccer & women's field hockey.  Even the UConn baseball team has produced recent major leaguers like Rajai Davis, Mike Olt & George Springer.  The UConn hockey team is going to be a hit, despite that not really mattering in the conference shuffle (except for maybe the Bog 10?).

You are correct about football and men's basketball.  After that, the importance of individual sports drops off.  But Louisville women's basketball has made two final fours and baseball has made the CWS three times.  It has a relatively new football stadium (as does UConn) and a brand new basketball arena.

But most importantly, prior to joining the ACC, it already had an athletic budget of $80+ million.  I believe that is about $15 million more than UConn.

Louisville's growth in athletics over the past decade has been extremely impressive.

[GoldenWarrior11]

The ACC will not invite UCONN anytime soon, not because of the perceived animosity between Boston College and UCONN, but rather the need to keep the football powers in conference (Florida State, Clemson, Miami, Virginia Tech, etc.) happy and prevent them from being bolting to another P5 conference (Big 12 being the most likely).  If Florida State had one loss this season, they would be on the outside looking in from the CFP perspective.

The B1G will not invite UCONN anytime soon because, academically, they are well behind the other schools.  They are also not an AAU member, which Jim Delaney said would have factored into the invite to Nebraska (who is no longer an AAU member).  

The Big 12, with West Virginia already on an island (and the fact that UCONN will just further separate the schools within the conference), will not invite UCONN anytime soon.

UCONN, as previously stated, appears to be putting all of their eggs in the football basket.  Disregarding football, playing Tulane, East Carolina, Tulsa, UCF, and Houston does nothing to help maintain their elite basketball program.  Top recruits will not want to go to a conference that is considered Conference USA 3.0.  Even though UCF won the Fiesta Bowl last year, and UCONN won the National Championship, both have done nothing to change the perception that it is a "best of the rest" conference.  The Big East brand is still strong.  The fact that the league has done so well in OOC only strengthens that notion.

[Coleman]

Can I ask an honest question? And I swear this isn't trying to be political. What happened to all the liberal faculty and administrators who used to go ape (correctly!) about diverting funds from academics to athletics? Were they "bought off" by the prestige that all the athletics programs are supposed to provide their work? Do they just not care as long as their own checks clear?

They're still there, and still care, and still raise hell. They haven't been bought off or gone away.

And its not just liberal faculty members who are upset.

[Tugg Speedman]

You are correct about football and men's basketball.  After that, the importance of individual sports drops off.  But Louisville women's basketball has made two final fours and baseball has made the CWS three times.  It has a relatively new football stadium (as does UConn) and a brand new basketball arena.

But most importantly, prior to joining the ACC, it already had an athletic budget of $80+ million.  I believe that is about $15 million more than UConn.

Louisville's growth in athletics over the past decade has been extremely impressive.

Also, their was a WSJ story a year or two ago that Louisville agreed with ESPN to move it's games to Tuesday night.  They were in the forefront of having college football games on Tuesday and Wednesday night that transformed the revenue potential of the sport.

[Benny B]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57551556/has-college-football-become-a-campus-commodity/

In it they flat out stated the purpose of football is to raise the profile of the school.  That is mission 1.  Mission 2 is to make Alums feel good about the school so they donate.

Most interesting is this statement by Dave Brandon, former CEO of Dominos Pizza and now Michigan AD ...

-----

Dave Brandon: The business model of big-time college athletics is primarily broken. It's, it's a horrible business model.

Armen Keteyian: Broken.

Dave Brandon: Broken. You've got 125 of these programs. Out of 125, 22 of them were cash flow even or cash flow positive. Now, thankfully, we're one of those. What that means is you've got a model that's not sustainable in most cases. You just don't have enough revenues to support the costs. And the costs continue to go up.

Why? A big reason is universities are in the midst of a sports building binge. Cal Berkeley, for example, renovated its stadium to the tune of $321 million. The list is endless. Michigan's athletic department floated $226 million in bonds to upgrade the Big House.

Assuming what Brandon is saying is true, let me ask an honest question... how does FBS football raise the profile of a school like Duke, Indiana or UCONN?  Do we think that any of these three schools were to abandon football that there would be mass student protests on campus?  Would the majority of alumni simply stop giving to the university?  Would anyone - other than the football players and staff - really be upset by such a move?  Is it really football that brings prestige or is it conference affiliation?

So can we all agree that the only reason Duke, IU and UCONN haven't abandoned football heretofore has simply been to maintain their conference affiliation?

[GGGG]

Assuming what Brandon is saying is true, let me ask an honest question... how does FBS football raise the profile of a school like Duke, Indiana or UCONN?  Do we think that any of these three schools were to abandon football that there would be mass student protests on campus?  Would the majority of alumni simply stop giving to the university?  Would anyone - other than the football players and staff - really be upset by such a move?  Is it really football that brings prestige or is it conference affiliation?

So can we all agree that the only reason Duke, IU and UCONN haven't abandoned football heretofore has simply been to maintain their conference affiliation?

No.  I think a good portion of their alumni bases like football even though it is largely a futile effort.  Look at Wisconsin in the 70s and 80s.  There is really nothing preventing Indiana from doing something similar.  All it takes is the right people in the right places.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Duke is currently one of the better ACC football teams

[GooooMarquette]

Assuming what Brandon is saying is true, let me ask an honest question... how does FBS football raise the profile of a school like Duke, Indiana or UCONN?  Do we think that any of these three schools were to abandon football that there would be mass student protests on campus?  Would the majority of alumni simply stop giving to the university?  Would anyone - other than the football players and staff - really be upset by such a move?  Is it really football that brings prestige or is it conference affiliation?

So can we all agree that the only reason Duke, IU and UCONN haven't abandoned football heretofore has simply been to maintain their conference affiliation?

I think maintaining conference affiliation could be a significant part of the reason for Duke and IU - who play in conferences that will clearly be on the "inside" if and when the power conferences break away.

With UConn, it's more that they're hanging onto football in the hope that they can improve their conference affiliation before the breakup.  If the breakup becomes more and more imminent and UConn is still languishing in the AAC with the "have-nots" of the D-1 football world, they might very well drop their program, and try to come back to the BE.

[GooooMarquette]

Duke is currently one of the better ACC football teams

Yes, they are.  And there have been occasional seasons where Vandy has escaped the bottom of the SEC and Indiana has escaped the bottom of the Big Twelethirfourteen.  The trends have never lasted long.....

[kmwtrucks]

If UCONN wants to blame anyone it should be the idiot Big 12 for taking WV or Ville when they had the chance.  If that happens then who gets into the ACC WV or UCONN?   If I had a guess it would be UCONN?

[Dawson Rental]

If UCONN wants to blame anyone it should be the idiot Big 12 for taking WV or Ville when they had the chance.  If that happens then who gets into the ACC WV or UCONN?   If I had a guess it would be UCONN?

WV would have gotten the ACC invite just has it got the Big 12 invite.  WV has a very solid football program and history.  It's no accident that the Big 12 was willing to reach so far out of its previous boundary to take WV.  Football drives the bus.

[Dawson Rental]

Yes, they are.  And there have been occasional seasons where Vandy has escaped the bottom of the SEC and Indiana has escaped the bottom of the Big Twelethirfourteen.  The trends have never lasted long.....

Indiana has played in nine bowl game during its 120 season history with a record of 3-6.  So, I guess that, in particular, the upward trends for Indiana football don't last long.

[GGGG]

WV would have gotten the ACC invite just has it got the Big 12 invite.  WV has a very solid football program and history.  It's no accident that the Big 12 was willing to reach so far out of its previous boundary to take WV.  Football drives the bus.

There are some deep seeded issues with West Virginia within the ACC.  West Virginia had no chance for an invite last go around, and it is doubtful they ever will get one.

[WarriorInNYC]

Indiana has played in nine bowl game during its 120 season history with a record of 3-6.  So, I guess that, in particular, the upward trends for Indiana football don't last long.

I think that was kind of his point, that the trend of Duke having one of the better ACC football teams probably won't last long. 

Just checked Duke's wikipedia page and it notes that Duke football has been to 10 bowl games with a 3-7 record with 1 ACC title.  On another note, I noticed that their band acronym is "DUMB" (Duke University Marching Band).

[Benny B]

No.  I think a good portion of their alumni bases like football even though it is largely a futile effort.  Look at Wisconsin in the 70s and 80s.  There is really nothing preventing Indiana from doing something similar.  All it takes is the right people in the right places.

Define "good portion."  2%?  8%?  20%?  50%?  If X% of the alumni base wants football, and said X% accounts for $Y in annual donations, and football costs $Z annually, what happens if Z > Y ????

UW football - any college athletics - in the 70s and 80s is irrelevant.  College football in the 2010s and beyond is a completely different animal.  It's pretty much sapien vs. neanderthal in evolutionary context.  If a school was losing $15M/year (adjusted for inflation) on football in 1985, the conversation in the board room would have been exponentially less congenial than it would be today.

It took decades for Indiana to get behind the Colts.  Even in the early Peyton Manning days, it took a while for people to warm up to the pigskin, and it wasn't until their second or third playoff appearance before blackouts were no longer a bi-weekly concern in Indy.  Even Purdue - who has had success on the field in spurts over the years - barely draws more than IU.

Not to mention that the increase in UW football's popularity over the past twenty years has much to do with it merely being a proxy for the Packers, namely, since the rise of GB in the early 90s, it has become much more difficult (both availability & price) for an average football fan in Wisconsin to get tickets to a Packer game, so UW - incidentally, whose program also began its renaissance around the same time as the Packers - has become a benefactor.  Anecdotally, my father and his brother went to several Packer games a year in the 70s and 80s, in a few of those years they even went to all of the home games.  In the 90s and 2000s, and more recently, they've averaged a single Packer game a year but instead have been going to 2-3 UW games every year.  But even if there were ever any similar "trickle down" from the Colts' success, that spillover is going to be split between IU and Purdue, possibly even UL.

[avid1010]

unless i'm completely missing something...those numbers are all BS and the issue is much more complicated.  while i have no use for college football for so many reasons, the $$$ schools "lose" are probably some of the best marketing $$$ the schools spend.  it's like asking how much the bucks are worth to milwaukee and the state of WI.  a million studies showing a million different amounts. 

[GooooMarquette]

I think that was kind of his point, that the trend of Duke having one of the better ACC football teams probably won't last long.  

Yep - they're all in the same ballpark.  Vandy has been to 7 bowls, Indiana 9 and Duke 10.  Not looking for any significant changes in the next decade or two.

[brewcity77]

No.  I think a good portion of their alumni bases like football even though it is largely a futile effort.  Look at Wisconsin in the 70s and 80s.  There is really nothing preventing Indiana from doing something similar.  All it takes is the right people in the right places.

I was thinking similarly about this. While football itself may not operate at a profit, I doubt that includes donations and applications that may not come in if not for the high visibility of football.

[Dawson Rental]

I think that was kind of his point, that the trend of Duke having one of the better ACC football teams probably won't last long. 

Just checked Duke's wikipedia page and it notes that Duke football has been to 10 bowl games with a 3-7 record with 1 ACC title.  On another note, I noticed that their band acronym is "DUMB" (Duke University Marching Band).

Yep - they're all in the same ballpark.  Vandy has been to 7 bowls, Indiana 9 and Duke 10.  Not looking for any significant changes in the next decade or two.

Now I get it.

[GGGG]

Not to mention that the increase in UW football's popularity over the past twenty years has much to do with it merely being a proxy for the Packers, namely, since the rise of GB in the early 90s, it has become much more difficult (both availability & price) for an average football fan in Wisconsin to get tickets to a Packer game, so UW - incidentally, whose program also began its renaissance around the same time as the Packers - has become a benefactor.  Anecdotally, my father and his brother went to several Packer games a year in the 70s and 80s, in a few of those years they even went to all of the home games.  In the 90s and 2000s, and more recently, they've averaged a single Packer game a year but instead have been going to 2-3 UW games every year.  But even if there were ever any similar "trickle down" from the Colts' success, that spillover is going to be split between IU and Purdue, possibly even UL.

I actually don't think that is the case at all.  I think the Badgers renaissance is almost entirely internal.  

[GooooMarquette]

I actually don't think that is the case at all.  I think the Badgers renaissance is almost entirely internal.  

I agree.  IMHO, the Badgers' football renaissance had to do with one thing - they started winning consistently.

[Dawson Rental]

unless i'm completely missing something...those numbers are all BS and the issue is much more complicated.  while i have no use for college football for so many reasons, the $$$ schools "lose" are probably some of the best marketing $$$ the schools spend.  it's like asking how much the bucks are worth to milwaukee and the state of WI.  a million studies showing a million different amounts. 

I was thinking similarly about this. While football itself may not operate at a profit, I doubt that includes donations and applications that may not come in if not for the high visibility of football.

I believe that the league involved plays a big part.  Losing 17.5M a year to be in the Big 10 is a far superior investment to losing 17.5M a year to play in ConferenceUSA.  The 18.9M or whatever UConn is losing to play football in the AAC isn't worth it for the experience of being in the AAC, but it keeps UConn's hopes that it will be invited to a big 5 conference alive.

[Benny B]

I was thinking similarly about this. While football itself may not operate at a profit, I doubt that includes donations and applications that may not come in if not for the high visibility of football.

Call me skeptical, but I find it hard to believe that UConn, IU or Duke would lose $17.5M/yr in donations if they dropped football.  At MSU, UW, any SEC school, sure... but not at an FBS school that lives and breathes basketball. 

Look at this from the other angle... why isn't Marquette dropping $17.5M/yr if it's going to bring in donations and visibility?

Why is it that it's a stupid investment for a basketball school when it's MU, but it's a smart investment for a basketball school when its UConn?