DWade and Team Trinity

[GGGG]

Pakuni, I think you have hit on something.  I think LBJ has done a lot of harm to the "Lebron Brand" that he has worked so hard to cultivate...and that could have some long-term harm on his endorsements and his income.  He's now not "The Next Michael."  Michael wouldn't follow anybody, anywhere.

Furthermore, while I don't necessarily blame him for wanting to leave Cleveland, the manner in which this unfolded was so amateurish.  This is what happens when you put your 25 year old friends in charge of your PR instead of listening to the advice of WWW, who would have been able to unfold this much more professionally.  I mean, according to his interview on the Dan Patrick Show, this entire thing was Jim Gray's idea.  He apparently brought it up to Maverick Carter during the playoffs.

Seriously it was completely comical.

[HouWarrior]

Great thread title:
Here is the way I would rank "Team Trinity"

GOD== D Wade-- He rules, above all others,and  has already has been to NBA heaven...champ and finals MVP

JESUS=== LB James-- has spent his childhood years in Nazareth, and in the Cleveland wilderness, he hasnt yet brought any team to salvation, but ESPN clearly treats him as if they believe he is the Messiah.

HOLY GHOST== C Bosh-- in Toronto and in the playoffs-- few men have actually seen him, we're not sure what he can do...but he is automatically tied to the other two

[Pakuni]

That isn't LBJ *yet.*  When Michael was his age people were saying the same thing about him.  When Kobe was that age, he was considered petulant and spoiled, riding on Shaq's coattails.

LBJ still has a long history to be written.

I don't recall ever questioning Jordan's competitive instinct the way people have LeBron's.

As for Kobe ... yeah, he was petulant and spoiled. Still is, to a degree. But he couldn't wait to be rid of Shaq because he desperately wanted to be The Man, depserately wanted to prove he could - like Jordan - be in the central figure in a championship team.
James has done just the opposite. He's run away from being the central figure. Any title he wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways. Perhaps he doesn't care. Perhaps his happiness doesn't depend on that, which would make him somewhat of a rarity about athletes of his talents.
 But history will judge him as a guy who couldn't put a team on his back and lead them to a title, and, IMO, that will keep him out of the discussion when people talk about the GOAT.

[Pakuni]

Furthermore, while I don't necessarily blame him for wanting to leave Cleveland, the manner in which this unfolded was so amateurish.  This is what happens when you put your 25 year old friends in charge of your PR instead of listening to the advice of WWW, who would have been able to unfold this much more professionally.  I mean, according to his interview on the Dan Patrick Show, this entire thing was Jim Gray's idea.  He apparently brought it up to Maverick Carter during the playoffs.

Seriously it was completely comical.

This may be the truest statement in this thread. That was complete amateur hour and even people who didn't have a horse in this race felt it was a terribly display ... not only by James, but by ESPN.

[brewcity77]

I think that the Hope is to put LeBron on the hypothetical NBA Mount Rushmore alongside Jordan, Russell, Magic, and Bird. The problem with that is that I'm not even sure he'd make a Mount Rushmore of current players. Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan would be my locks in terms of career accomplishments. Then it gets murky...LBJ has a claim but would it be any stronger than that of 2-time MVP Steve Nash? He should, but at the end of the day hasn't accomplished much more.

And of course, he has now accepted the role as Robin to D-Wade's Batman, Gilligan to Wade's Skipper, or as it's known in NBA land, LeBron would rather emulate Pippen than Jordan. The Heat will never be "his" team, and for that reason it's hard to put him into an all-time great argument.

[HoopsMalone]

Marquette is a winner here.  MU may produce the leader of a team that ultimately wins a few titles and who other players flocked to to get it done.  Indiana wins too.

[MarkCharles]

I think its really tough to put the "he hasn't won anything" label on a 25 year old. Sure, he hasn't won a title, but he single-handedly carried a team to the finals as a 22-year old (quick-name another player on the 2007 Cavs), has 2 MVPs, and has won a ton of games in the regular season and playoffs. His story is yet to be written.

He is a better player than any other other 25 year old ever, and anyone who would debate that is foolish. Jordan wasn't at his level yet, and was 3 years away from a title. Kobe may have had a couple rings, but he was the 2nd best player on that team by a mile, and had a lot more terrible playoff and finals games than anyone cares to remember. Kobe was also just as "bad" of a shooter as LeBron, and look where he is now. I have no doubt LeBron will continue to improve this "weakness" of his game, as he has every year. Nobody other than Jordan (in my lifetime, at least) has been able to take over a game in so many ways, and be so enthralling to watch at the same time. You may not like him, but LeBron is a force of nature.

HoopsMalone, you say LeBron isn't MJ or Kobe, that he should be fine being Dr. J. First off, he is way better than Dr. J, who only ever won 1 title, and that was alongside Moses Malone. Second, LeBron has no interest in being in that company. He is going for top 5 all time. Whether he gets there remains to be seen, but I don't think winning with Wade prevents him from being in the top 5.

[MarkCharles]

I don't recall ever questioning Jordan's competitive instinct the way people have LeBron's.

As for Kobe ... yeah, he was petulant and spoiled. Still is, to a degree. But he couldn't wait to be rid of Shaq because he desperately wanted to be The Man, depserately wanted to prove he could - like Jordan - be in the central figure in a championship team.
James has done just the opposite. He's run away from being the central figure. Any title he wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways. Perhaps he doesn't care. Perhaps his happiness doesn't depend on that, which would make him somewhat of a rarity about athletes of his talents.
 But history will judge him as a guy who couldn't put a team on his back and lead them to a title, and, IMO, that will keep him out of the discussion when people talk about the GOAT.

LeBron really was in a no-win situation. "The Decision" sure didn't help, but still...

He stays in Cleveland, and people complain that hes scared of a new challenge, was only about $, etc.
He goes to Chi, he's just following in MJ's footsteps and can never live up to him.
He goes to NY, and hes not about winning, only cares about Brand LeBron.
He goes to Miami, and hes scared of a challenge on his own.

People that have an inborn dislike of LeBron (I'm not necessarily saying you, Pakuni) would have criticized him no matter what his decision, logic be damned. I have been hearing idiots on the radio saying this decision was about money. That is so wrong its not even funny. People just have a resentment for LeBron that I will never understand.

It was clear LeBron was not winning any time soon in Cleveland. That roster was not capable of winning a title. Nobody, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Larry, won without a 2nd great player. Not one of those players in any of their primes would have won a title with the Cavs. Not only do they not have a true 2nd option, its debatable whether they had even a quality 3rd option. Mo Williams? Antawn Jamison? Not really.

Why wouldn't he want to get the best 2nd option he possibly could? Are people seriously faulting him for wanting to play with DWade???

If this group sticks long-term, LeBron will emerge as the true best player on that team. He might defer to Wade for a year or two, but LeBron is nowhere near his potential, and Wade is likely as good as he'll ever be, or very close. In about 3 years, Wade will not be the same player. If they win 4 or 5 rings, most of those will be when LeBron is far and away the best player on the team, and people will view him in a very different light than they do now.

Good discussion guys, nice to move beyond the same old tired Newbill story.

[HoopsMalone]

I think its really tough to put the "he hasn't won anything" label on a 25 year old. Sure, he hasn't won a title, but he single-handedly carried a team to the finals as a 22-year old (quick-name another player on the 2007 Cavs), has 2 MVPs, and has won a ton of games in the regular season and playoffs. His story is yet to be written.

He is a better player than any other other 25 year old ever, and anyone who would debate that is foolish. Jordan wasn't at his level yet, and was 3 years away from a title. Kobe may have had a couple rings, but he was the 2nd best player on that team by a mile, and had a lot more terrible playoff and finals games than anyone cares to remember. Kobe was also just as "bad" of a shooter as LeBron, and look where he is now. I have no doubt LeBron will continue to improve this "weakness" of his game, as he has every year. Nobody other than Jordan (in my lifetime, at least) has been able to take over a game in so many ways, and be so enthralling to watch at the same time. You may not like him, but LeBron is a force of nature.

HoopsMalone, you say LeBron isn't MJ or Kobe, that he should be fine being Dr. J. First off, he is way better than Dr. J, who only ever won 1 title, and that was alongside Moses Malone. Second, LeBron has no interest in being in that company. He is going for top 5 all time. Whether he gets there remains to be seen, but I don't think winning with Wade prevents him from being in the top 5.

Easy... Lebron is not the best 25 year old ever.  Lebron went to the finals when the east was as soft as I have ever seen.  DWade was hurt that year (Bulls swept them out of the playoffs...) and the Pistons were aging and not the same team (that one OT game was sick by Lebron though).  Not knocking him, but he is just flat out not the best 25 year old ever...  Literally is flat out not.  I don't know what criteria you could possibly use to think that?

Shaq has an equal resume by 25.  Took a team to the Finals and got his behind swept like James did.

Magic's game 6 in Philly is something James has never done.

Jordan at age 25?  In the 1988-89 season, Jordan averaged 32.5 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists.  Lebron was 29, 7, and 8.  The season before that he average 37.5 ppg.  I believe that was the year of "the shot" as a series clincher on the road. Jordan had already set the record for most points in a playoff game too.  Jordan also had the game winner in a college final and had that under his belt.  No one thought Jordan's teammates were any good either.  Jordan is statistically better and also had a developing team around him back then. He was losing to the Celtics and the Pistons of old.  Jordan was a Pippen migraine away from winning it in his 6th season too. 

If you like Lebron, fine.  If you think he CAN be in the top 5 ever, fine.  Maybe he can.  But Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and Wade are all current players ahead of him.  Let alone the other players that came before him. 

Before the Decision, people were not necessarily Lebron haters.  People are just saying easy on the comparisons.  He has not done anything to deserve that.  He is a top 5 player in the NBA right now, but easy on the best 25 year old ever type of thing.  I think Dr. J is a nice comparison personally.  Puts up tons of stats, people always think he is going to do it, but could not win that title until he had Moses Malone.  Dr. J was sweet though and is not a bad guy to be compared to.

[brewcity77]

Why wouldn't he want to get the best 2nd option he possibly could? Are people seriously faulting him for wanting to play with DWade???

I don't think it's a matter of getting the best 2nd option, but rather LeBron accepting the role of the 2nd option himself. James said he doesn't want the pressure of being a 30 ppg scorer, of having to have a high shooting percentage. He's essentially saying "I'm okay with not being the Alpha Dog", and he's clearly accepting the secondary role by going to a city where D-Wade is already the established King. Miami will always be Wade's city and not LeBron's. Miami will see it as their title-winning hero Wade luring in a pair of ideal sidekicks to lift them back to the top. They will see Wade as #1 and LeBron as #2.

LeBron doesn't want to be remembered as the best ever, doesn't want to carry the mantle that guys like Magic, Michael, and Kobe carry gleefully, doesn't want to be a leader. He wants to be Scottie Pippen. I guess that's okay, but as an NBA fan it's a bit disappointing to not see this guy want to be THE MAN. He only wants to be the Brand.

[Pakuni]

It was clear LeBron was not winning any time soon in Cleveland. That roster was not capable of winning a title. Nobody, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Larry, won without a 2nd great player. Not one of those players in any of their primes would have won a title with the Cavs. Not only do they not have a true 2nd option, its debatable whether they had even a quality 3rd option. Mo Williams? Antawn Jamison? Not really.

I'm not convinced James-Williams-Jamison is much (if any) of a lesser group than Duncan-Parker-Ginobili, and certainly better than Billups-Hamilton-Wallace. Antwan Jamison is no superstar, but he's been a consistent 20-8 guy throughout his career. I'll put it this way: the 2011 Caves with LeBron would have been as much better team, at least on paper, than the 2007 Cavs that made the Finals.

Why wouldn't he want to get the best 2nd option he possibly could? Are people seriously faulting him for wanting to play with DWade???

I don't think people are faulting him for wanting to play with Wade, but for feeling that he needs Wade (and Bosh) in order to win a championship. As the SI writer put it, what LeBron did is the equivalent of Jordan leaving the Bulls in 1990 for the Pistons because he had a better chance of winning playing alongside Isiah Thomas. Jordan would much rather have stepped over Thomas (or anyone else) to win a title, than have to "join forces" with him to do it. Ditto for Kobe.
Does that make LeBron a bad guy? Not at all. But it shows he lacks the competitive will of the great ones.

[Brewtown Andy]

People.

Stop comparing LBJ to other players at 25.  It's misleading.  He's played 7 years.   Compare him to other players after 7 years.

[HoopsMalone]

People.

Stop comparing LBJ to other players at 25.  It's misleading.  He's played 7 years.   Compare him to other players after 7 years.

All the other greats had a title by their 7th year in the league.  Its not fair that he got put up as the heir apparent to these guys.  The only thing is, joining a team like this is unprecedented and it is really hard to compare him to other guys now.

[Aughnanure]

People.

Stop comparing LBJ to other players at 25.  It's misleading.  He's played 7 years.   Compare him to other players after 7 years.

+1000, I get so sick of the "youngest player to score X number of many points"

[HoopsMalone]

The Big Three's contracts are out and they did take a small paycut.  http://www.digitalsportsdaily.com/nba/news/2248-james-wade-bosh-sign-contracts-with-miami.html

Not sure what those contracts average out to, but if there is a 10.5% yearly raise, it is in the ballpark of $14 million/year this year.  So, that is $42 million to them and $16 million left, which lets them sign a player or two.  Don't hold me accountable to these numbers as it is just a ballpark.

[Aughnanure]

The Big Three's contracts are out and they did take a small paycut.  http://www.digitalsportsdaily.com/nba/news/2248-james-wade-bosh-sign-contracts-with-miami.html

Not sure what those contracts average out to, but if there is a 10.5% yearly raise, it is in the ballpark of $14 million/year this year.  So, that is $42 million to them and $16 million left, which lets them sign a player or two.  Don't hold me accountable to these numbers as it is just a ballpark.

Why do I keep reading about the S&T with Raptors and Cavs? Took a pay cut in a sign a trade? Thanks, though...you're following this insane process well.

[Brewtown Andy]

+1000, I get so sick of the "youngest player to score X number of many points"

That's at least mostly sensical. It's not LBJ's fault that he was allowed to enter the league at 18.

With the number of HS->NBA guys out there, we all need to remember that they're going to be going out of the league 2-4 years earlier than we think they should age-wise.

[HoopsMalone]

Why do I keep reading about the S&T with Raptors and Cavs? Took a pay cut in a sign a trade? Thanks, though...you're following this insane process well.

I think it is a paycut per year but you get a sixth year guaranteed which is huge because any player could get hurt and be done.  Joe Johnson is set, for example.  It's worth it to get that 6th year in under this CBA, especially for Wade since this is most likely his last big pay day as he is a little older.  You also get 10.5% raises on the sign and trade.  Boozer and Amar'e are only gettin 8% raises, I think, since they signed with a new team.

I guess the Cavs and Raptors caved and did the sign and trade.  I guess you might as well take the draft picks from the Heat.  I also don't know what a trade exception means that people are talking about. 

I wonder how Joe Johnson feels now that he is the highest paid player in this entire thing. 

[MUSF]

I don't recall ever questioning Jordan's competitive instinct the way people have LeBron's.

As for Kobe ... yeah, he was petulant and spoiled. Still is, to a degree. But he couldn't wait to be rid of Shaq because he desperately wanted to be The Man, depserately wanted to prove he could - like Jordan - be in the central figure in a championship team.
James has done just the opposite. He's run away from being the central figure. Any title he wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways. Perhaps he doesn't care. Perhaps his happiness doesn't depend on that, which would make him somewhat of a rarity about athletes of his talents.
 But history will judge him as a guy who couldn't put a team on his back and lead them to a title, and, IMO, that will keep him out of the discussion when people talk about the GOAT.

Why is it a negative that Lebron doesn't want to be like Kobe and MJ?

Listen to what you are saying.  Kobe couldn't wait to get rid of Shaq so he could be the man.  This is a positive trait?

" Any title he (Lebron) wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways."  This is a negative?

[Aughnanure]

That's at least mostly sensical. It's not LBJ's fault that he was allowed to enter the league at 18.

With the number of HS->NBA guys out there, we all need to remember that they're going to be going out of the league 2-4 years earlier than we think they should age-wise.

Yeah, but when they are comparing him to players like Jordan and Magic, who played in college, using those stats and it is simply a very poor way to analyze it. Its easy to break some records when you are given a solid 3-4 year head start (age-wise).

[Brewtown Andy]

" Any title he (Lebron) wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways."  This is a negative?

Yes, because it means people actually think Chris Bosh will contribute anything meaningful.

[MUSF]

I'm not convinced James-Williams-Jamison is much (if any) of a lesser group than Duncan-Parker-Ginobili, and certainly better than Billups-Hamilton-Wallace.

This is somewhat misleading IMO.  Those "big threes" may match up favorably but the rest of those Pistons / Spurs teams were better than the rest of the Cavs.  The Cavs didn't have guys like Prince, Bowen, Horry.

[HoopsMalone]

Yes, because it means people actually think Chris Bosh will contribute anything meaningful.

Bosh is the luckiest guy on the planet.  He gets lumped into a "big 3" even though he is really Horace Grant to the other two's MJ and Pippen.  Bosh gets to chill and post up every once in a while and get way more credit than he will likely deserve if they win.  If they lose, it will be all Lebron's fault.

[StillAWarrior]

I saw that Miami traded two first rounders and two second rounders to Cleveland for James and two first rounders to Miami for Bosh.  How will trading four first rounders and two second rounders affect Miami's progress -- particularly in light of their anticipated need for low-priced players?

[Brewtown Andy]

I saw that Miami traded two first rounders and two second rounders to Cleveland for James and two first rounders to Miami for Bosh.  How will trading four first rounders and two second rounders affect Miami's progress -- particularly in light of their anticipated need for low-priced players?

It means that they don't have to worry about the guaranteed money going to the 1st round picks and players they don't know if they can contribute anything immediately.