Off Year for Big East

[MUEng92]

Current Coaches Poll

1 Duke 
2 Ohio State
3 Kansas
4 Connecticut
5 Syracuse
6 Pittsburgh
7 San Diego State
8 Villanova
9 Georgetown
10 Missouri
11 Kansas State
12 Michigan State
13 Purdue
14 Kentucky
15 Baylor 
16 Minnesota
17 Memphis
18 Tennessee
19 Florida
20 Notre Dame
21 Illinois
22 Texas
23 Brigham Young
24 Texas A&M
25 Louisville

Do I correctly recall the "experts" saying how great the Big Ten would be this year, better than the Big East?  Well, they do have the highest rank team among the two conferences...And...the Big Ten is definitely kicking the Big East's butt in #10 through #25 slots!

Yes, I am fully aware that a) it is early in the season and b) the Big Ten has fewer teams than the Big East.   Keep your pants on.  Just thought it was an interesting snap shot.

[rocky_warrior]

While we're pulling early numbers, here's Pomeroy's count:

Top 25:
B10 - 5
BEAST - 6

Top 50:
B10 - 6
BEAST - 11

Now, as a whole, the B10 is ranked #1 edging out the BEAST as #2. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Big Ten still ranked number 1 in Ken Pom

http://www.kenpom.com/conf.php?c=B10


Number 1 in Sagarin

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/bkc1011.htm?loc=interstitialskip


Number 1 in NPI

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2011/conferencenpi


Number 2 in RPI

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2011/conferencerpi


I'd say they're doing pretty well.  The advantage they have is their worst teams are not as bad as our worst teams. Our top teams are better than theirs, our middle and their middle is about the same but we have the drag down effect.

[downtown85]

Big Ten still ranked number 1 in Ken Pom

http://www.kenpom.com/conf.php?c=B10


Number 1 in Sagarin

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/bkc1011.htm?loc=interstitialskip


Number 1 in NPI

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2011/conferencenpi


Number 2 in RPI

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2011/conferencerpi


I'd say they're doing pretty well.  The advantage they have is their worst teams are not as bad as our worst teams. Our top teams are better than theirs, our middle and their middle is about the same but we have the drag down effect.

Another way of saying is, I'd take our top11 teams against their top11 teams. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

It would be interesting to see the impact of Nebraska, TCU and Colorado shifting.  I think the B12 would be #1, just eyeballing it. 

[brewcity77]

The only reason the Big Ten gets the edge from anyone is because of teams like DePaul at the bottom of the BEast. Without a doubt, the BEast has more top level teams, and far and away (not even remotely close) more quality mid-level teams. Like downtown said, line us up against them 1-11 and the Big Ten falls flat on its face. Because of that, I'll maintain that the BEast is the best conference in the country this year, just like it will be next year, and it was last year, and the year before that, and the year before that, and...

[jmayer1]

The only reason the Big Ten gets the edge from anyone is because of teams like DePaul at the bottom of the BEast. Without a doubt, the BEast has more top level teams, and far and away (not even remotely close) more quality mid-level teams. Like downtown said, line us up against them 1-11 and the Big Ten falls flat on its face. Because of that, I'll maintain that the BEast is the best conference in the country this year, just like it will be next year, and it was last year, and the year before that, and the year before that, and...

Comparing the Big East top 11 teams to the Big Ten's makes no sense in my mind.  Those bottom 5 teams are still in the conference and need to be taken into account.  I disagree with those that have said the bottom is what brings the Big East down compared to the Big Ten.  I don't think that the worst teams in the Big East (Rutgers, SH, Prov, DePaul, USF, SJU) will be any worse than those in the Big Ten (Indiana, Penn State, Iowa, UM) by season's end, just like they weren't last year.

[HouWarrior]

I see a bright side to this.
My old coach loved when we'd play teams highly considered saying-- its a chance for  a big win, and you all have NOTHING to lose.
Our B east play, if we beat even a few of these big ranked teams gives us the chance for a great tourney shot. Id prefer that over independent, great midwest and CUSA days when we had to really win 'em all to be ranked /considered for tourney.
Now, we have many chances for big wins

[ChicosBailBonds]

Another way of saying is, I'd take our top11 teams against their top11 teams. 

Yes, but the reality is that every conference has a top and bottom.  To compare only one side of the conference to the entirety of the other is not really an apples to apples comparison.  The teams at the bottom are there and often suffer that fate as a result of competition against the upper tier teams in the conference (granted, at this point in the season that won't happen until conference play begins).

[bilsu]

The best conference will be determined by NCAA tournament bids and wins. All the rating systems have a built in bias, because they rate teams before they play a game. As the season goes on the ratings become more accurate.

[brewcity77]

The best conference will be determined by NCAA tournament bids and wins. All the rating systems have a built in bias, because they rate teams before they play a game. As the season goes on the ratings become more accurate.

Do they? The problem is what happens when the Big East lands 8 teams, and the Big Ten lands 6? Is the Big Ten better because they got 54.5% of their teams into the dance, or is the Big East better because they got 2 more teams in? Numbers may never lie, but anyone can skew them to how they like. Which is why Chicos can point to the Big Ten as the best conference and I can point to the Big East, and both of us can find numbers to support our cause and neither is right or wrong. And that won't change even when the bids are announced. Sure, you can start another argument when the tourney is said and done, but is that more accurate?

Hell, if conference W/L percentage in the NCAA Tournament is the determining factor, I'm pretty sure the best conference in the land last year was the Horizon thanks to Butler's run. So are they really the best? It's not just in the numbers, but how you interpret them, which is why no matter how much the ratings may seem to become more accurate, they really just have more ammo with which to make an argument that can still be debated on both sides.

[muwarrior69]

Yes, but the reality is that every conference has a top and bottom.  To compare only one side of the conference to the entirety of the other is not really an apples to apples comparison.  The teams at the bottom are there and often suffer that fate as a result of competition against the upper tier teams in the conference (granted, at this point in the season that won't happen until conference play begins).

Chicos, since you live on the west coast how good is San Diego State? and... Why has the PAC 10 fallen on hard times in basketball?

[Mr. Nielsen]

5 Big East schools in the top 10. I would hate to see what a on year looks like. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, since you live on the west coast how good is San Diego State? and... Why has the PAC 10 fallen on hard times in basketball?

I've only seen them play once to be honest.   Pac Ten was running on all cylinders in 2008 and 2009, but by and large has been near the bottom of the BCS conferences for most of the decade.

A lot of players have jumped to the pros early, that has hurt...especially UCLA.  Arizona's temporary blip and all the Lute Olsen stuff caused some hiccups the last few years.  USC's probation doesn't help, but they are scrappy and playing tough.  A combination of many of those things.  A good chunk of the Pac Ten schools won't take academic risks and many have also shied away from JUCOs to fix the early departures.  As an example, UCLA took their first JUCO in a long time this year which had a number of their alumni not very happy.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree with much of what Brew says on this topic, there are valid arguments for both.  I think one thing is clear, the Big East and the Big Ten are the two best conferences this year.  Who is 1st or 2nd really depends on how the evaluation is done.  I agree that the top of the Big East is better than the top of the Big Ten and that bears out in the rankings, the computer polls, the head to head battles.

However, when someone says who is the best CONFERENCE, I view that as the ENTIRE conference, not just part of it.  Because of the dregs at the bottom, I give the Big Ten a slight edge top to bottom as do 3 of the 4 computer rankings.  That may change as the season goes on, but regardless both conferences seem to be at the top of the food chain this year.

[jmayer1]

The best conference will be determined by NCAA tournament bids and wins. All the rating systems have a built in bias, because they rate teams before they play a game. As the season goes on the ratings become more accurate.

Human rankings do but computer rankings generally have no built in bias because they rely on data points.  The only exception may be early in the year, as there is not enough data points to calculate at that point (I know KenPom does this) but those disappear once enough data is gathered in the current year.

However, when someone says who is the best CONFERENCE, I view that as the ENTIRE conference, not just part of it.  Because of the dregs at the bottom, I give the Big Ten a slight edge top to bottom as do 3 of the 4 computer rankings.  That may change as the season goes on, but regardless both conferences seem to be at the top of the food chain this year.

Chicos, see my earlier post.  Do you really think the dregs of the B10 (Iowa, Indiana, PSU, Michigan) are any worse than the dregs of the BE (Rutgers, SH, Prov, DePaul, USF, maybe SJ)? Both look pretty horrendous to me.

[brewcity77]

Do you really think the dregs of the B10 (Iowa, Indiana, PSU, Michigan) are any worse than the dregs of the BE (Rutgers, SH, Prov, DePaul, USF, maybe SJ)? Both look pretty horrendous to me.

More than a bit disappointed as I look at that list of "dregs" and see that all of them except DePaul have at least one win that is notably better than anything we have on our schedule. Granted, some of them have some pretty bad losses (St. John's to Fordham, Providence to La Salle), but that game against Vandy next week is looking bigger and bigger as it draws near.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Big East back in the lead with SJU's victory over Willie & the Wildcats. 

http://realtimerpi.com/ncaab/conf_Men.html

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, see my earlier post.  Do you really think the dregs of the B10 (Iowa, Indiana, PSU, Michigan) are any worse than the dregs of the BE (Rutgers, SH, Prov, DePaul, USF, maybe SJ)? Both look pretty horrendous to me.

Seton Hall I think is pretty good, I have us losing to them.  Providence, who knows because they've played nobody. Rutgers hard to tell but likely not very good. DePaul and USF are brutal.   On the Big Ten side, I think Michigan would beat most of our bottom teams...they're a team that lost to Syracuse by 3 points. IU would beat some of our bottom teams.  Iowa and Penn State are really bad.

Hard to tell, I said slight edge to Big Ten overall only because there are more awful teams in the Big East than in the Big Ten in my opinion, but it's close.

[Lennys Tap]

Illinois loses to Mizzu and Indiana loses to N Iowa on neutral courts. MSU beaten at home by Texas. The Big 10's position as the top or co-top conference ended tonight.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Illinois loses to Mizzu and Indiana loses to N Iowa on neutral courts. MSU beaten at home by Texas. The Big 10's position as the top or co-top conference ended tonight.

Any different than having our top team, Pitt, lose to Tennessee the other day?  Followed by Seton Hall losing last night at home to Dayton, South Florida losing to Cleveland State last night, etc?

This thing will go back and forth.  

Ironically, in Ken Pom, the Big East dropped to 3rd

http://www.kenpom.com/conf.php?c=BE

[chren21]

Little off topic but at least Gonzaga beat Xavier last night.  That helps a very very little.

[hoyasincebirth]

In my mind when discussing the best conference the only thing that matters is who has the most high quality teams that are NCAA/NIT worthy. The dregs don't matter because no one cares about them. The BE is simply the best because the top 13 or so teams every year are good enough to make the NCAA torunament but all can't make it in because we beat up on each other.

The inevitable argument is that this is not fair because the big east has more teams. Why? Why does more teams automatically= more quality teams. My answer is it doesn't and the example I point to always is the A10. The A10 has 14 members. That's more than every other conference besides the big east. By the more teams logic the A10 should be the second best conference every year and be better than the ACC(12) and B10(11) every year. After all if you have more teams you automatically have more quality teams .

The BE may have more teams than other leagues, but that doesn't mean the fact that we have more quality teams than other leagues should be discounted. If anything I think the # of the teams in our league actually makes it so there appear to be more bad teams than there really are. Besides Deapaul no one is that bad in the BE this year.  Providence and Rutgers both only have 2 losses and have wins over big 6 conference schools. USF has wins over Texas tech and Auburn and almost knocked off BYU.

Only 3 BE teams have more than 3 losses.

B10: 4
B12: 3
ACC: 8
P10: 7
SEC: 4

[bamamarquettefan]

I feel great about the Big East right now, but we have four tough games this week starting with UNC-Rutgers in a few minutes, MU at VANDY of course, and then Temple-Nova and Lville-Kentucky.

Those are all tough games, the toughest being us and Rutgers who are both given less than a 25% chance of winning by Pomeroy.

After than it's pretty much all in conference, so the conference will have built up such strong overall ratings that 9-9 gets us in the tourney because every win except DePaul will at least potentially get us credit as a quality and/or road win.

My biggest disappointment is that our new team TCU, while threatening to move into the top 100, lost to the Big 10s new team Nebraska, who is at #41 in Pomeroy.  But other than that and our loss to the Badgers, we certainly couldn't have asked for much better results in Big East vs. Big 10 play.