MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: ChitownSpaceForRent on April 19, 2020, 02:33:59 AM
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Like anyone is going to be doing anything else tomorrow at 8:00...
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Pretty much the highlight of the spring.
Let’s. Go.
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What is the all-time, most-watched ESPN (non-live-sports) telecast?
Given the hype and the fact that there's nothing else sports-related for folks to watch, this has a chance to break all records.
I'm looking forward to it. I have a lot of memories of that season, and I am very curious to see how it's all presented.
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Alweys luved Donna Summer's voice, hey?
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What is the all-time, most-watched ESPN (non-live-sports) telecast?
Given the hype and the fact that there's nothing else sports-related for folks to watch, this has a chance to break all records.
I'm looking forward to it. I have a lot of memories of that season, and I am very curious to see how it's all presented.
Will we see a young MU82 patrolling the Bulls locker room for a quote?
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What is the all-time, most-watched ESPN (non-live-sports) telecast?
Given the hype and the fact that there's nothing else sports-related for folks to watch, this has a chance to break all records.
I'm looking forward to it. I have a lot of memories of that season, and I am very curious to see how it's all presented.
The OJ doc has to be up there right?
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As a kid who grew up in Illinois and worshipped the Bulls, I can't wait for this
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I wish Michael Jordan's restaurant (the OG one) was still open so I could order from there while I watch this.
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Hearing Jordan may have been a fan of the booger sugar. We’ll see what comes out.
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Krause would be in the Hall of Fame if not for his ego. Should be there anyway.
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Krause would be in the Hall of Fame if not for his ego. Should be there anyway.
Pippin was a stroke of genius. Lots of other solid moves along the way (Grant, Cartwright, Kukoc, Rodman, etc.,)
On the minus side, his rebuild efforts were a disaster.
But he still should be in the Hall.
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My old boss at the Bulls Joe O’Neil makes an appearance!
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Jordan = GOAT
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Dibs on Traveling Cocaine Circus as the name for my fantasy football team.
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Honestly, for most of the country, this may have been exciting. But for anyone who was an adult (or near adult) in Chicago from 1980 until the Last Dance, nothing is new.
The constant beating on Jerry Krause was a bit much. Krause was Reisdorf's bad cop and he wasn't a bad general manager. There's some truth to the "organizations win championships," comment because the organization has to put a team on the court worthy of the talent Jordan was.
What an organization can do was evident when the Bulls made their first playoff run in Jordan's second year. Jordan put up fantastic numbers against the Celtics, but the Bulls lost. When Krause got Scottie Pippin, Cartwright, et al and later, Rodman, he put a team together that could win.
And it was Pippin who signed that ridiculously stupid deal that left him badly underpaid. He had no one to blame but his agent and himself.
Overall, a C+ production. Way too choppy and spent too much of the second show focused on Jordan rather than Pippin.
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Honestly, for most of the country, this may have been exciting. But for anyone who was an adult (or near adult) in Chicago from 1980 until the Last Dance, nothing is new.
The constant beating on Jerry Krause was a bit much. Krause was Reisdorf's bad cop and he wasn't a bad general manager. There's some truth to the "organizations win championships," comment because the organization has to put a team on the court worthy of the talent Jordan was.
What an organization can do was evident when the Bulls made their first playoff run in Jordan's second year. Jordan put up fantastic numbers against the Celtics, but the Bulls lost. When Krause got Scottie Pippin, Cartwright, et al and later, Rodman, he put a team together that could win.
And it was Pippin who signed that ridiculously stupid deal that left him badly underpaid. He had no one to blame but his agent and himself.
Overall, a C+ production. Way too choppy and spent too much of the second show focused on Jordan rather than Pippin.
::)
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When are the next episodes?
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When are the next episodes?
Next Sunday.
MU connection, Wes Matthews was on the “Traveling Cocaine Circus.”
Agree that a lot of it is review, but a lot of it is stuff I haven’t thought about in 20+ years.
Also, Reinsdorf is lucky that Krause has passed away, as he rolls the bus over him.
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Honestly, for most of the country, this may have been exciting. But for anyone who was an adult (or near adult) in Chicago from 1980 until the Last Dance, nothing is new.
Overall, a C+ production. Way too choppy and spent too much of the second show focused on Jordan rather than Pippin.
Gotta admit, I'm not far off your opinion. I'd give it something better than C+, but I also thought it was really scattershot and didn't tread any particularly new ground. I'll still watch...but I wasn't overly impressed with last night's episodes.
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Honestly, for most of the country, this may have been exciting. But for anyone who was an adult (or near adult) in Chicago from 1980 until the Last Dance, nothing is new.
The constant beating on Jerry Krause was a bit much. Krause was Reisdorf's bad cop and he wasn't a bad general manager. There's some truth to the "organizations win championships," comment because the organization has to put a team on the court worthy of the talent Jordan was.
What an organization can do was evident when the Bulls made their first playoff run in Jordan's second year. Jordan put up fantastic numbers against the Celtics, but the Bulls lost. When Krause got Scottie Pippin, Cartwright, et al and later, Rodman, he put a team together that could win.
And it was Pippin who signed that ridiculously stupid deal that left him badly underpaid. He had no one to blame but his agent and himself.
Overall, a C+ production. Way too choppy and spent too much of the second show focused on Jordan rather than Pippin.
Yes. ESPN shouldn't have devoted 10 hours to the most iconic sports figure of the last half-century, but to the second best player on the team.
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Pippin was a stroke of genius. Lots of other solid moves along the way (Grant, Cartwright, Kukoc, Rodman, etc.,)
On the minus side, his rebuild efforts were a disaster.
But he still should be in the Hall.
Yeah they were a disaster. And way too premature. He should have just rode it out until it didn't work, but he didn't have the ego to do that.
Unfortunately he's no longer alive for us to hear his current point of view.
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Yeah they were a disaster. And way too premature. He should have just rode it out until it didn't work, but he didn't have the ego to do that.
Unfortunately he's no longer alive for us to hear his current point of view.
I’ll look for it, but I heard an interview with Krause before he died. It might have been on Richard Deitsch’s podcast. It was interesting. I may re-listen to it based on The Last Dance. I believe he defended his decisions by it being money driven and people being ready to move on.
It was with Woj. I think I listened to it last year, so my synopsis might not be right, but below is the link.
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/826787212423475201?s=21
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Yes. ESPN shouldn't have devoted 10 hours to the most iconic sports figure of the last half-century, but to the second best player on the team.
Brother Fluff:
No doubt Jordan was someone special in the game of basketball. Also, no doubt he is a global icon in a way no other US sports figure has been, to date.
But gee, one also can argue that he is one of the most over-exposed sports celebrities I've ever seen. When he was with the Bulls, he couldn't go to the bathroom without a horde of reporters following him. His every move, from gambling habits to divorce, has been over-exposed by the media.
He's also one of the most financially savvy of athletes I've ever seen. The man is about making money, which I admire. He was shrewd enough to retain control over his image for so long that he had control over when all of this was released. I admire his ability to do that, but geez, is there anything about Jordan we don't already know?
Ask Brother MU. He knows!
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Brother Fluff:
No doubt Jordan was someone special in the game of basketball. Also, no doubt he is a global icon in a way no other US sports figure has been, to date.
But gee, one also can argue that he is one of the most over-exposed sports celebrities I've ever seen. When he was with the Bulls, he couldn't go to the bathroom without a horde of reporters following him. His every move, from gambling habits to divorce, has been over-exposed by the media.
He's also one of the most financially savvy of athletes I've ever seen. The man is about making money, which I admire. He was shrewd enough to retain control over his image for so long that he had control over when all of this was released. I admire his ability to do that, but geez, is there anything about Jordan we don't already know?
Ask Brother MU. He knows!
We? Not really. It was pure nostalgia.
My twenty-something year old kids? Yeah, there was a lot they don't know.
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We are 20% of the way through the series. The first two episodes were giving people the background. Even as a diehard basketball fan I’m personally glad they did. I’m guessing there is some juicer content to come.
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Apparently watching this triggered former Bear Matt Forte:
https://twitter.com/MattForte22/status/1252074462788358145?s=20
https://twitter.com/MattForte22/status/1252082205515493381?s=20
https://twitter.com/MattForte22/status/1252085849044418561?s=20
https://twitter.com/MattForte22/status/1252086145372106753?s=20
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Apparently watching this triggered former Bear Matt Forte:
https://twitter.com/MattForte22/status/1252074462788358145?s=20
https://twitter.com/MattForte22/status/1252082205515493381?s=20
https://twitter.com/MattForte22/status/1252085849044418561?s=20
https://twitter.com/MattForte22/status/1252086145372106753?s=20
Packer fans everywhere:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/g0ErvnyVsp7nJyfmxF/giphy.gif)
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The criticism that this has all largely been reported before, i.e. "nothing is new" seems to me a bit like watching Ken Burns' "The Civil War" and complaining that you already know how the story ends.
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The criticism that this has all largely been reported before, i.e. "nothing is new" seems to me a bit like watching Ken Burns' "The Civil War" and complaining that you already know how the story ends.
Over the years, I've been riveted by quite a few ESPN 30 for 30 documentaries where I knew how the story ends. Hell, I've even watched some more than once -- so not only did I know how the story ends, I knew how the 30 for 30 episode told the story. They were captivating story telling and extremely well done.
I just didn't find last night's episodes of The Last Dance particularly interesting and they didn't hold my attention. I'm not saying it was bad, it just didn't capture me. I'm still planning to watch again next week, and I hope that I like those episodes more.
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The criticism that this has all largely been reported before, i.e. "nothing is new" seems to me a bit like watching Ken Burns' "The Civil War" and complaining that you already know how the story ends.
Brother Pakuni:
I hear you. But I'd also note that unlike the Civil War, all of the details are for the most part still fresh and still a part of day-to-day life. Do this in another 20 or 30 years and I might agree.
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I feel like I’m in the prime demographic. I was around 9 for this season and was a big MJ fan, but I didn’t really know some of what was going on. For me it was the playoffs, NBA on NBC, and going to Bucks games. I didn’t realize Pippen demanded a trade. Really enjoyed the first two episodes.
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Absolutely smoked the OJ documentary
https://deadline.com/2020/04/michael-jordan-last-dance-ratings-espn-strong-1202912937/
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I feel like I’m in the prime demographic. I was around 9 for this season and was a big MJ fan, but I didn’t really know some of what was going on. For me it was the playoffs, NBA on NBC, and going to Bucks games. I didn’t realize Pippen demanded a trade. Really enjoyed the first two episodes.
Same. I was 12 in 1998. Even though I was a Wisconsin kid, I watched every Bulls game on WGN Superstation (I couldn't even get all the Bucks games on TV back then), completely in awe of Michael Jordan. I knew every player on that roster by heart (still do).
But I had no idea of the stuff going on on the background. This is really fascinating to me and I am enjoying it.
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Absolutely smoked the OJ documentary
https://deadline.com/2020/04/michael-jordan-last-dance-ratings-espn-strong-1202912937/
Meaningless, though. There were other options for sports when the OJ doc was on.
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Same. I was 12 in 1998. Even though I was a Wisconsin kid, I watched every Bulls game on WGN Superstation (I couldn't even get all the Bucks games on TV back then), completely in awe of Michael Jordan. I knew every player on that roster by heart (still do).
But I had no idea of the stuff going on on the background. This is really fascinating to me and I am enjoying it.
You (and Cheebs, among others) saw the finished product.
What you missed over his first half dozen years in the league was the elite athlete. MJ is still the greatest athlete in NBA history.
First time I saw him live was during the '84 Olympic team exhibition schedule against NBA all-stars. The actual reason I went to the game was to see Terry Cummings who had just been traded to the Bucks. Still yet to play in the NBA, MJ stole the show. Within two minutes, everyone in the crowd knew he was better than any of the NBA stars.
Jordan was one of those rare players that when he got the ball in the open floor, the entire crowd stood up - both at home and on the road. Nobody wanted to miss what might happen next. Only two other guys I saw that with were Dr. J and Connie Hawkins.
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You (and Cheebs, among others) saw the finished product.
What you missed over his first half dozen years in the league was the elite athlete. MJ is still the greatest athlete in NBA history.
First time I saw him live was during the '84 Olympic team exhibition schedule against NBA all-stars. The actual reason I went to the game was to see Terry Cummings who had just been traded to the Bucks. Still yet to play in the NBA, MJ stole the show. Within two minutes, everyone in the crowd knew he was better than any of the NBA stars.
Jordan was one of those rare players that when he got the ball in the open floor, the entire crowd stood up - both at home and on the road. Nobody wanted to miss what might happen next. Only two other guys I saw that with were Dr. J and Connie Hawkins.
You're right of course, but there is no comparison to being 10 years old and watching the Bulls go 72-10. At that age everything is pure magic. I can still remember going to school the next morning and talking all day about last night's game with my friends.
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You're right of course, but there is no comparison to being 10 years old and watching the Bulls go 72-10. At that age everything is pure magic. I can still remember going to school the next morning and talking all day about last night's game with my friends.
Absolutely.
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Pistons Bad Boy fan. I believe ALLLLLLL the bad stuff. ;D
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I enjoyed it. Looking forward to 3 & 4.
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As a kid who grew up in Illinois and worshipped the Bulls, I can't wait for this
As a kid who grew up worshipping the Bad Boys and surrounded by bandwagon Bulls fans, my wife (who also worshipped the Bad Boys) and I will not be watching this.
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As a kid who grew up worshipping the Bad Boys and surrounded by bandwagon Bulls fans, my wife (who also worshipped the Bad Boys) and I will not be watching this.
Anyone who could worship Bill Laimbeer is mind boggling. Same with Rodman. In fact, I stopped being a Bulls fan when they signed him.
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Anyone who could worship Bill Laimbeer is mind boggling. Same with Rodman. In fact, I stopped being a Bulls fan when they signed him.
You speak harshly of my heroes. Laimbeer was like AJ Pierzynki. When he was on your team and playing well, you loved him. And you loved watching him wreck other teams and drive their fanbases insane. Rodman, when he came in the league and before he went nuts, was actually a hell of a story. Phenomenal one-on-one defender and rebounder. Able to guard 5 positions. The kind of player every good team would love. Also infuriating to other teams and their fanbases.
I pulled up 'Jordan rules' on youtube and showed my 13 year old how to stop Michael Jordan. Even he could see the difference in how the officiating allowed defense to be played then versus now. If they called the games in the 80's and 90's like they do now, Michael would have averaged 40.
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In the mid '90s I was a partial season ticket holder for the Bucks. God they were terrible at that time, but even though I rooted for the Bucks (and still do) I always respected the Bulls. Basically, I feel like those Bulls teams carried the NBA in the '90s. If it wasn't for them, the NBA would have been rudderless.
If nothing else, it's fun to reminisce about the guys who were pretty close to my age. I was a few years younger than Pippen/Jordan, but around the same age as Longley/Kukoc so the '90s were sort of "my" era. I like this series so far, brings back good memories of my 20s even though I wasn't a Bulls fan. The Bulls of the '90s weren't just a great basketball team, they were sort of a cultural phenomenon. Guys like Jordan and Rodman were celebrities beyond the game and then you had an international flavor added to it with Longley/Kukoc. It will be hard to ever duplicate that phenomenon completely.
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Laimbeer and Zeke have still not overcome their bitterness of taking a back seat to the Bulls during that era.
Look at any interview those two guys do nowadays, they’re still salty and will use any opportunity to rip MJ and the Bulls.
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Laimbeer and Zeke have still not overcome their bitterness of taking a back seat to the Bulls during that era.
Look at any interview those two guys do nowadays, they’re still salty and will use any opportunity to rip MJ and the Bulls.
That's pretty low of them. Heck, they had their own little mini-dynasty, they made their own mark on the NBA and you'd think they'd just be proud of that and not need to trash anyone else.
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They've been overlooked sitting between the Celtics/Lakers era and the Bulls era. And rightfully so.
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As a kid who grew up worshipping the Bad Boys and surrounded by bandwagon Bulls fans, my wife (who also worshipped the Bad Boys) and I will not be watching this.
Lol.
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They've been overlooked sitting between the Celtics/Lakers era and the Bulls era. And rightfully so.
Agreed. And frankly I'm glad their brand of basketball didn't become the norm. The early to mid '90s Knicks tried to be like them but were less talented.
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Anyone who could worship Bill Laimbeer is mind boggling. Same with Rodman. In fact, I stopped being a Bulls fan when they signed him.
Rodman, before he went insane, was like a kid on the court and a totally different person than he was with San Antonio and the Bulls. Hustle, enthusiasm, passion, he was awesome during the title runs. The tears when he won DPOY in 1990 were real and left an impression on so many young cagers.
Laimbeer, well, he was our guy. My favorite was Dumars, the quiet assassin.
Jordan felt the need to trash the Pistons and disrespect their accomplishments. Thus the bitterness. Having to overcome the Celtics and Lakers, and being jobbed in game 6 in 1988, made those titles so sweet. Then to have Jordan whine that they were to physical (while still scoring 105+ per game) and him screwing Zeke out of them Team spot he earned, turned me anti-Bulls and Jordan for good.
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Rodman, before he went insane, was like a kid on the court and a totally different person than he was with San Antonio and the Bulls. Hustle, enthusiasm, passion, he was awesome during the title runs. The tears when he won DPOY in 1990 were real and left an impression on so many young cagers.
Laimbeer, well, he was our guy. My favorite was Dumars, the quiet assassin.
Jordan felt the need to trash the Pistons and disrespect their accomplishments. Thus the bitterness. Having to overcome the Celtics and Lakers, and being jobbed in game 6 in 1988, made those titles so sweet. Then to have Jordan whine that they were to physical (while still scoring 105+ per game) and him screwing Zeke out of them Team spot he earned, turned me anti-Bulls and Jordan for good.
Because the Pistons were nothing but classy, respectful, good sports to the Bulls and everyone else. :o
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Rodman, before he went insane, was like a kid on the court and a totally different person than he was with San Antonio and the Bulls. Hustle, enthusiasm, passion, he was awesome during the title runs. The tears when he won DPOY in 1990 were real and left an impression on so many young cagers.
Laimbeer, well, he was our guy. My favorite was Dumars, the quiet assassin.
Jordan felt the need to trash the Pistons and disrespect their accomplishments. Thus the bitterness. Having to overcome the Celtics and Lakers, and being jobbed in game 6 in 1988, made those titles so sweet. Then to have Jordan whine that they were to physical (while still scoring 105+ per game) and him screwing Zeke out of them Team spot he earned, turned me anti-Bulls and Jordan for good.
Serial killers have their odd fandom too.
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Piston fans from that era view the Bulls as the serial killers. Unlikely that chasm is ever bridged.
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I thought Jordan keeping Thomas off the Dream Team was because Thomas led the charge to freeze him out at the All Star game. Plus, Thomas has shown why he can rub people the wrong way over the course of his playing career and after.
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I thought Jordan keeping Thomas off the Dream Team was because Thomas led the charge to freeze him out at the All Star game. Plus, Thomas has shown why he can rub people the wrong way over the course of his playing career and after.
No doubt about that. His post-career endeavors (CBA, Knicks, FIU) have overshadowed his playing career.
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Jordan vs. Zeke is always gonna be a “Who shot first” thing.
I think the biggest difference is one player has seemingly let it go while the other is still salty to this day.
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No doubt about that. His post-career endeavors (CBA, Knicks, FIU) have overshadowed his playing career.
Meanwhile, Michael being a flop as an NBA executive (in Washington, where he drafted Kwami Brown, among other screw-ups) and owner (Charlotte has sucked pretty much his entire time here) doesn't seem to have tarnished the image he built as a player -- and product pitchman -- at all.
Piston fans from that era view the Bulls as the serial killers. Unlikely that chasm is ever bridged.
As a person who is a fan of neither team but an observer of both ... the Bulls never had players try to "take out" Thomas and Dumars. Rodman tried to hurt Pippen, and Daly clearly had his players try to rough up Jordan whenever possible. Much of the latter was within the rules back then, but I don't think whatever beef the Pistons have against the Bulls is an equivalent situation.
Once the Bulls started winning titles, of course, they rendered the Pistons obsolete. So maybe some of the "saltiness" comes from that.
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Jordan felt the need to trash the Pistons and disrespect their accomplishments. Thus the bitterness. Having to overcome the Celtics and Lakers, and being jobbed in game 6 in 1988, made those titles so sweet. Then to have Jordan whine that they were to physical (while still scoring 105+ per game) and him screwing Zeke out of them Team spot he earned, turned me anti-Bulls and Jordan for good.
You know what was super classy? When the Bulls finally overtook the Pistons in the playoffs and Isiah Thomas and his class bunch walked off the court before the game four was done.
Joe Dumars it turns out was the only classy bad boy.
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You know what was super classy? When the Bulls finally overtook the Pistons in the playoffs and Isiah Thomas and his class bunch walked off the court before the game four was done.
Joe Dumars it turns out was the only classy bad boy.
and yet all of the Celtics, other than McHale, did the same in 1988 and nobody batted an eye. For the Pistons is was in response to Jordan saying the Pistons titles were bad for basketball. Disrespecting the champs like that deserved disrespect back.
https://clutchpoints.com/pistons-news-john-salley-reveals-what-really-happened-when-detroit-walked-off-court-vs-bulls-in-1991/
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and yet all of the Celtics, other than McHale, did the same in 1988 and nobody batted an eye. For the Pistons is was in response to Jordan saying the Pistons titles were bad for basketball. Disrespecting the champs like that deserved disrespect back.
https://clutchpoints.com/pistons-news-john-salley-reveals-what-really-happened-when-detroit-walked-off-court-vs-bulls-in-1991/
Ah yes. The true victims were...the Pistons. Because they were..."disrespected." ::)
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Ah yes. The true victims were...the Pistons. Because they were..."disrespected." ::)
I don't think there were any "victims." Don't talk trash then wonder why the target is upset.
And for as much as I hated the Bulls and Jordan I respect their accomplishments. Hell, if not for Jordan sabbatical they probably win eight in a row.
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https://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnists/shawn-windsor/2020/04/26/detroit-pistons-bad-boys-michael-jordan-bulls-the-last-dance-espn/3028110001/
Highlights. For all of the videos showing nothing but Pistons putting opponents on their butts during the playoffs, the Pistons actually played some really good basketball. Precursor to San Antonio and Golden State from an offensive ball movement perspective. A center who could shoot 3's. 3 really good guards who could be used interchangeable. An effective fast break with Salley and Rodman filling the lanes.
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So Laimbeer definitely said no to speaking in this documentary right?
There’s no way the producers didn’t ask him.
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Dennis Rodman casually chugging a Miller Lite before getting on a motorcycle in front of police is an image that will never be topped.
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https://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnists/shawn-windsor/2020/04/26/detroit-pistons-bad-boys-michael-jordan-bulls-the-last-dance-espn/3028110001/
Highlights. For all of the videos showing nothing but Pistons putting opponents on their butts during the playoffs, the Pistons actually played some really good basketball. Precursor to San Antonio and Golden State from an offensive ball movement perspective. A center who could shoot 3's. 3 really good guards who could be used interchangeable. An effective fast break with Salley and Rodman filling the lanes.
Yes tower. We get it. Your Pistons are being overlooked.
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Don’t get me wrong, I’m loving this documentary. However, it didn’t feel like episode 4 had much of 97-98. Maybe the last 4 episodes will have more as they get through the early parts of Jordan’s career.
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Poor Scott Burrell
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Piston fans from that era view the Bulls as the serial killers. Unlikely that chasm is ever bridged.
Not surprising tha Bull’s fans and Piston’s fans saw things differently. But pretty much everyone not a Detroit fan thought the Pistons were dirty. So there’s that.
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https://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnists/shawn-windsor/2020/04/26/detroit-pistons-bad-boys-michael-jordan-bulls-the-last-dance-espn/3028110001/
Highlights. For all of the videos showing nothing but Pistons putting opponents on their butts during the playoffs, the Pistons actually played some really good basketball. Precursor to San Antonio and Golden State from an offensive ball movement perspective. A center who could shoot 3's. 3 really good guards who could be used interchangeable. An effective fast break with Salley and Rodman filling the lanes.
I love ya, tower, but this episode did have several players who were on the Pistons that season talking about their entire focus being to inflict as much pain as they could on Michael. So there's that.
Obviously, they were a great team. Isiah and Dumars are Hall of Famers, and they had several other outstanding players, and an excellent coach. But pssst ... the documentary wasn't about them. I'd highly recommend you start production on Beautiful Basketball, The Story Of The Late '80s Pistons.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m loving this documentary. However, it didn’t feel like episode 4 had much of 97-98. Maybe the last 4 episodes will have more as they get through the early parts of Jordan’s career.
To me it felt they wanted to use these first 4 episodes to give everybody an inside look at the 4 main personalities -- Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Jackson -- while also giving a history lesson on how the franchise got where it did. I'm guessing you're right about seeing more '98 as the series goes on.
I think it's been very well done so far.
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I hope people properly appreciate how good of a basketball player Rodman was. All the shenanigans aside, that dude worked hard, studied hard, one of the most cerebral players ever. Chuck Daly and Phil Jackson were the perfect coaches for him at each respective point in his career.
I want to say this now before it airs later...no team during the Bulls run scared me more than those 98 Pacers.
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Toni Kukoc was a very good basketball player. I trust they will bring his story into this at some point as well.
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I hope people properly appreciate how good of a basketball player Rodman was. All the shenanigans aside, that dude worked hard, studied hard, one of the most cerebral players ever. Chuck Daly and Phil Jackson were the perfect coaches for him at each respective point in his career.
I want to say this now before it airs later...no team during the Bulls run scared me more than those 98 Pacers.
Always did.
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I hope people properly appreciate how good of a basketball player Rodman was. All the shenanigans aside, that dude worked hard, studied hard, one of the most cerebral players ever. Chuck Daly and Phil Jackson were the perfect coaches for him at each respective point in his career.
In both public and private, Jackson and Jordan regularly made the same comments about Rodman that you did. Jackson said Rodman understood and ran the triangle better than any other player. The series that Rodman defended Shaq (then on the Magic) 1-on-1 for long stretches was an incredible display of smart, ferocious defense. You are right about Daly and Jackson -- perfect coaches for Worm.
Some dismiss Jackson's coaching ability because "he always had so much talent," but lots of coaches/managers in lots of sports never win despite having considerable talent to work with. Jackson was the best ego-manager we've ever seen in any sport IMHO, remarkable at getting players with extremely different personalities and agendas to work together. The clip in this last episode of him imploring Jordan to repeatedly pass to Paxson is a perfect example.
If I had to list my all-time top 10 coaches/managers from all 4 major pro sports since I became an adult (or at least "adult-ish"), he would be No. 1 ... and the distance between him and the next guy probably would be pretty wide.
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The other thing about Rodman that is so facinating in retrospect, is that some of the stuff he did, like color his hair and wear goofy clothes, would seem so tame now. And I forgot about Michael Jordan's "beret phase." That looked worse than anything Rodman wore.
Hey and Carmen Electra still looks pretty good.
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I hope people properly appreciate how good of a basketball player Rodman was. All the shenanigans aside, that dude worked hard, studied hard, one of the most cerebral players ever. Chuck Daly and Phil Jackson were the perfect coaches for him at each respective point in his career.
I want to say this now before it airs later...no team during the Bulls run scared me more than those 98 Pacers.
Rodman could guard and frustrate Bird, McHale, Jordan, Pippen, Magic, Worthy, Wilkins all the while rebounding like no other skinny 6'8 guy you ever saw. Early on, as good of an on ball defender as I have seen. Great feet, great understanding of his opponents tendencies.
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In retrospect, it is pretty amazing that Reinsdorf was OK with Krause's plan to not bring Jackson back and to start from scratch. What owner would possibly think that way now? He should have recognized that Jackson was more important than Krause and that giving Pippen an extension early would have been beneficial for the team in the long run.
But that's totally Reinsdorf right? Believing way too much for too long in his front office staff.
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Once again, I generally enjoyed this (although only watched E3) but thought it skipped around a lot. I have no doubt that the filmmakers have a vision and it is intentional...but it seems kind of strange to me.
But yeah...I'll keep watching.
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In retrospect, it is pretty amazing that Reinsdorf was OK with Krause's plan to not bring Jackson back and to start from scratch. What owner would possibly think that way now? He should have recognized that Jackson was more important than Krause and that giving Pippen an extension early would have been beneficial for the team in the long run.
But that's totally Reinsdorf right? Believing way too much for too long in his front office staff.
Reinsdorf watched the Bird-McHale-Parish Celtics go from champs to over-the-hill gang in the space of just a couple years and said his nightmare scenario was for that to happen to the Bulls.
So part of it was Reinsdorf's belief that blowing things up a year or two too early was better than getting victimized a year or two too late.
But yes, a big part of it was that he bought into Krause's plan: Blow up the dynasty and then use the enormous space under the salary cap to reload quickly by signing 2-3 superstar free agents. Unfortunately for Reinsdorf, neither he nor Krause anticipated the players association being as resolute as it was, nor did they anticipate collective bargaining agreement changes that would offer significant incentives for players to not change teams.
And finally, Reinsdorf had way too much faith in Krause's ability to attract free agents who would want to play for a blown-up franchise and an unproven coach. One of the saddest/funniest things to watch during the summer of 2000 was the way one free agent after another led Krause and Floyd around on leashes in public dog-and-pony shows, only to choose other teams. After getting rejected by the likes of Duncan, Hill, McGrady and Eddie Jones, the desperate Bulls ended up throwing piles of money at Ron Freakin' Mercer.
Reinsdorf, through Krause, badly bungled the Jackson situation. Even if you didn't want to keep him beyond 1998, publicly embarrassing the best coach of modern times due to a vendetta was horrible management.
Despite Jordan's insistence that he would have only played had Jackson stayed, the truth is that he almost surely would have stayed had Jackson been replaced by somebody he respected (Paxson or Cartwright, most notably) and had Pippen been taken care of.
So all it would have taken for the Bulls to be favored to win another title or two would have been for Krause to have eaten his pride and for Reinsdorf to have been willing to spend the money out of the golden pockets that Michael had lined for him for years. Instead, Reinsdorf let Krause hire Floyd, lose the best player in basketball history and spend the next several years as NBA laughingstocks.
Many organizations spend decades chasing that elusive championship. When you win as often as the Bulls did, however, sometimes you undervalue what it means to win titles. You also think that you easily can replicate the success if you start over because, "hey, we did it once so we can do it again." Reinsdorf made a big bet on Krause, and he's now a bazillion miles away from anything close to success happening for his franchise again for the rest of his life.
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Reinsdorf watched the Bird-McHale-Parish Celtics go from champs to over-the-hill gang in the space of just a couple years and said his nightmare scenario was for that to happen to the Bulls.
So part of it was Reinsdorf's belief that blowing things up a year or two too early was better than getting victimized a year or two too late.
But yes, a big part of it was that he bought into Krause's plan: Blow up the dynasty and then use the enormous space under the salary cap to reload quickly by signing 2-3 superstar free agents. Unfortunately for Reinsdorf, neither he nor Krause anticipated the players association being as resolute as it was, nor did they anticipate collective bargaining agreement changes that would offer significant incentives for players to not change teams.
And finally, Reinsdorf had way too much faith in Krause's ability to attract free agents who would want to play for a blown-up franchise and an unproven coach. One of the saddest/funniest things to watch during the summer of 2000 was the way one free agent after another led Krause and Floyd around on leashes in public dog-and-pony shows, only to choose other teams. After getting rejected by the likes of Duncan, Hill, McGrady and Eddie Jones, the desperate Bulls ended up throwing piles of money at Ron Freakin' Mercer.
Reinsdorf, through Krause, badly bungled the Jackson situation. Even if you didn't want to keep him beyond 1998, publicly embarrassing the best coach of modern times due to a vendetta was horrible management.
Despite Jordan's insistence that he would have only played had Jackson stayed, the truth is that he almost surely would have stayed had Jackson been replaced by somebody he respected (Paxson or Cartwright, most notably) and had Pippen been taken care of.
So all it would have taken for the Bulls to be favored to win another title or two would have been for Krause to have eaten his pride and for Reinsdorf to have been willing to spend the money out of the golden pockets that Michael had lined for him for years. Instead, Reinsdorf let Krause hire Floyd, lose the best player in basketball history and spend the next several years as NBA laughingstocks.
Many organizations spend decades chasing that elusive championship. When you win as often as the Bulls did, however, sometimes you undervalue what it means to win titles. You also think that you easily can replicate the success if you start over because, "hey, we did it once so we can do it again." Reinsdorf made a big bet on Krause, and he's now a bazillion miles away from anything close to success happening for his franchise again for the rest of his life.
Probably the best assessment I've ever read of the end of the Bulls dynasty.
The Bulls probably had one more championship in them and Michael had a couple of really great years left, if the right system with the right people had been preserved. One other real issue was Jerry Krause's desire to cement his legacy with a rebuild back to contending status after Jordan was gone. It was as if Krause went off the deep end.
What would have been interesting would have been for Krause and Reinsdorf to swallow their pride, give Scottie a one-time renegotiate that was still below market but would have paid him closer to what he was worth. Krause should have swallowed his pride again and said, "Phil, as long as you're winning, you're our coach..." But he didn't and the team broke up. Would have been really nice to see him make peace with Jordan and the team as well.
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Reinsdorf watched the Bird-McHale-Parish Celtics go from champs to over-the-hill gang in the space of just a couple years and said his nightmare scenario was for that to happen to the Bulls.
Right. Which is kind of ridiculous because the Bulls never got over the hill. We don't even know if they got to the top of the hill.
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Right. Which is kind of ridiculous because the Bulls never got over the hill. We don't even know if they got to the top of the hill.
I think 1995-96 was the top of the hill. They definitely were trending down (age, injuries) but I think they had one more title run in them.
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I think 1995-96 was the top of the hill. They definitely were trending down (age, injuries) but I think they had one more title run in them.
Yep. And I think they would have better been able to attract a top player if they would have just signed Pippen to a longer deal past that assuming Jordan would have retired anyway.
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I think 1995-96 was the top of the hill. They definitely were trending down (age, injuries) but I think they had one more title run in them.
Franchises that never win (or rarely do) are willing to do anything just for a legit shot at that one title. Each of us can think of dozens of examples in the 4 major sports. But when you win as much as the Bulls did, maybe it's human nature to think, "We've won 6 ... why should we go to the mat just to win one more?" You get complacent as a franchise.
There is little doubt that Jordan had several great seasons left. He was still the best player in the league, still playing 82 games a year. Heck, when he came back in 2001-02 to the Wizards, he was averaging 25-6-5 through the first 50 games for a contending team and probably was the league MVP before he got hurt. Pippen had several very good seasons after he left the Bulls. So you keep Jackson, you keep Michael and Scottie, you still have Kukoc and Harper, each of whom had a few good years left, and you build around all of that with good role players.
Of course there are no guarantees you'll win more titles, but I would take my chance with that group for the next 3 years.
Or you blow it up and you never sniff anything close to a title (and you mostly suck) for two decades ... and counting.
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But when you win as much as the Bulls did, maybe it's human nature to think, "We've won 6 ... why should we go to the mat just to win one more?" You get complacent as a franchise.
Brother MU:
This is a fascinating point. Way back in 1978, Marquette rather thought that Al or no Al, it was our God-given right to be a Top 10 basketball team. A blue blood if you will. We’d be like Duke is today — decade on decade of excellence.
Then came Miami of Ohio.
Life would never be the same again.
After we lost that game, my thought was, “so what.” We’ve lost a few like that before. We’ll be back!
We weren’t! That day was the beginning of where we are today. Good but not great, by any means. The administration wasn’t willing to do what it took for us to stay a Top 10 team. It began with the coaching decisions and extended into spending and commitment. It took a couple of decades before we recognized what we’d done and how far we’d fallen.
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Anyone know what is going on with Jordan's eyes?
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Brother MU:
This is a fascinating point. Way back in 1978, Marquette rather thought that Al or no Al, it was our God-given right to be a Top 10 basketball team. A blue blood if you will. We’d be like Duke is today — decade on decade of excellence.
Then came Miami of Ohio.
Life would never be the same again.
After we lost that game, my thought was, “so what.” We’ve lost a few like that before. We’ll be back!
We weren’t! That day was the beginning of where we are today. Good but not great, by any means. The administration wasn’t willing to do what it took for us to stay a Top 10 team. It began with the coaching decisions and extended into spending and commitment. It took a couple of decades before we recognized what we’d done and how far we’d fallen.
Reasonable comparison. The main difference is that unlike Marquette, the Bulls had the best player in the world to go with the best "sidekick" in the world and the best coach in the world. All it would have taken was more money from Reinsdorf and less hubris from Krause. But sure, there are similarities.
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Anyone know what is going on with Jordan's eyes?
His eyes have always been a weird bloodshot/yellow. But yeah, it is super noticeable now.
I wonder if it is some kind of jaundice/liver function thing.
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I think 1995-96 was the top of the hill. They definitely were trending down (age, injuries) but I think they had one more title run in them.
Agree. They definitely had one more in the chamber. But time was limited.
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Anyone know what is going on with Jordan's eyes?
The reflection from all those gold rings has had a lasting effect.
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My favorite thing about the the documentary so far has been LeBron James's scramble to put himself into the limelight as soon as he possibly could when they were airing, trying to remind everyone that he's just as great, if not greater.
After the first two episodes he Tweeted (and has since deleted) that it had him thinking about live streaming himself watching his own career highlights. Very cool idea, LeBron!
Then he Tweeted this during episode 4:
https://twitter.com/KingJames/status/1254882206268354560?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
The guy cannot sit back and let the Bulls get some love without inserting himself into the conversation. Congrats on your championship LeBron. I had almost forgot you had one before your Tweet.
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My favorite thing about the the documentary so far has been LeBron James's scramble to put himself into the limelight as soon as he possibly could when they were airing, trying to remind everyone that he's just as great, if not greater.
After the first two episodes he Tweeted (and has since deleted) that it had him thinking about live streaming himself watching his own career highlights. Very cool idea, LeBron!
Then he Tweeted this during episode 4:
https://twitter.com/KingJames/status/1254882206268354560?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
The guy cannot sit back and let the Bulls get some love without inserting himself into the conversation. Congrats on your championship LeBron. I had almost forgot you had one before your Tweet.
While I don't disagree with you, it has been reported (https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/michael-jordan-green-lit-last-dance-after-lebron-james-2016-nba-title-win) that Jordan finally decided to green light the documentary in June 2016. Hmmm...I wonder what made MJ want to "insert himself into the conversation" at that particular point in time. It's almost like these ultra-talented athletes have huge egos or something.
Look, I personally think that MJ is the GOAT, but they all crave attention. LeBron started to feel a little overshadowed, so he sent out a couple tweets; MJ finally approved a 10-hour documentary.
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While I don't disagree with you, it has been reported (https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/michael-jordan-green-lit-last-dance-after-lebron-james-2016-nba-title-win) that Jordan finally decided to green light the documentary in June 2016. Hmmm...I wonder what made MJ want to "insert himself into the conversation" at that particular point in time. It's almost like these ultra-talented athletes have huge egos or something.
Look, I personally think that MJ is the GOAT, but they all crave attention. LeBron started to feel a little overshadowed, so he sent out a couple tweets; MJ finally approved a 10-hour documentary.
correct. that footage had been sitting a vault for over 20 years. Something must have happened to change Mike's mind. What could it have been?
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/04/the-last-dance-michael-jordan-approval-lebron-james
"On the very day LeBron James was celebrating what many have called the greatest NBA Finals performance in history, Michael Jordan finally said yes to a series that will likely convince a large swath of new generation that he’s the greatest player to ever live. That may just be a coincidence, but it also may not be."
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MJ’s a condescending douche?
Next thing you’ll be telling me is the Pope is Catholic!
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correct. that footage had been sitting a vault for over 20 years. Something must have happened to change Mike's mind. What could it have been?
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/04/the-last-dance-michael-jordan-approval-lebron-james
"On the very day LeBron James was celebrating what many have called the greatest NBA Finals performance in history, Michael Jordan finally said yes to a series that will likely convince a large swath of new generation that he’s the greatest player to ever live. That may just be a coincidence, but it also may not be."
I hadn't heard this. That's good stuff.
Super-duperstars are hyper-competitive about everything and always willing to remind folks how super they are. Who'da thunk it?
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Piston fans.
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Wonder when the series will get to MJ and all the white women he was with while still married to Juanita.
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Wonder when the series will get to MJ and all the white women he was with while still married to Juanita.
Would it have been more acceptable to you if MJ were cheating on Juanita with black women?
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Brother MU:
This is a fascinating point. Way back in 1978, Marquette rather thought that Al or no Al, it was our God-given right to be a Top 10 basketball team. A blue blood if you will. We’d be like Duke is today — decade on decade of excellence.
Then came Miami of Ohio.
Life would never be the same again.
After we lost that game, my thought was, “so what.” We’ve lost a few like that before. We’ll be back!
We weren’t! That day was the beginning of where we are today. Good but not great, by any means. The administration wasn’t willing to do what it took for us to stay a Top 10 team. It began with the coaching decisions and extended into spending and commitment. It took a couple of decades before we recognized what we’d done and how far we’d fallen.
Brother dgies
We were a top 10 team each of the last 9 years of the McGuire era.
With returning stars From the 77 champs Butch Lee, Jim Boylan, Jerome Whitehead and Bernard Toone we were again a top 10 team - because Hank inherited a full refrigerator. But we didn’t finish in the top 10 again for 25 years and five or six years later we weren’t even a .500 team. If you didn’t realize for a couple of decades that the party was over I respectfully submit that you weren’t paying much attention.
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Would it have been more acceptable to you if MJ were cheating on Juanita with black women?
Back then, it was a big deal.
I dont give a rip either way. Dude got a lot of poon, can't blame him.
Of course, you would disapprove if they weren't dressed properly.
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Back then, it was a big deal.
I dont give a rip either way. Dude got a lot of poon, can't blame him.
Of course, you would disapprove if they weren't dressed properly.
Ah.
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Brother dgies
We were a top 10 team each of the last 9 years of the McGuire era.
With returning stars From the 77 champs Butch Lee, Jim Boylan, Jerome Whitehead and Bernard Toone we were again a top 10 team - because Hank inherited a full refrigerator. But we didn’t finish in the top 10 again for 25 years and five or six years later we weren’t even a .500 team. If you didn’t realize for a couple of decades that the party was over I respectfully submit that you weren’t paying much attention.
Brother Lenny:
By 1980, I knew it was over. The reason was that Hank failed to recruit anywhere close to the level that Al did. When Terrell Schlundt was our big recruit in the early 1980s, we knew we had problems.
My point was I failed on the day we lost to Miami of Ohio to understand what that meant. I'll admit, with the wisdom of age, I should have known better -- and the administration should have known better as well. By 1981, I knew we were in BIG trouble and needed something to jump start us.
We weren't what we were and we're still looking for that special something. Here's hoping this class of recruits will help us find it.
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Kobe is supposedly making his first appearance tonight. I'm excited to see what they do with his footage -- have to imagine it will be emotional for a lot of people. I'd be interested to hear if they altered Kobe's storyline at all after his death or if they left the series as-is.
Either way, I think it will show two outstanding competitors with a lot of respect for one another.
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If ESPN or the NBA put the Monte Carlo game on Pay Per View tomorrow and charged $60, I would toss them my wallet right now.
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A couple of observations about last night:
1. MJ really made the turn from the "fun superstar" to the "kind of a prick" between that first and third championship. Probably was always that way but still.
2. That Knicks Game 5 ending with "poor Charles Smith" getting blocked repeatedly was ridiculously intense. They didn't show the best part though which was Jordan and the Bulls just sprinting off the floor when it was all done. Everyone knew the Knicks were toast at that point.
3. Could you imagine what the reaction would be if Lebron went to a casino the evening before a playoff game?
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A couple of observations about last night:
1. MJ really made the turn from the "fun superstar" to the "kind of a prick" between that first and third championship. Probably was always that way but still.
2. That Knicks Game 5 ending with "poor Charles Smith" getting blocked repeatedly was ridiculously intense. They didn't show the best part though which was Jordan and the Bulls just sprinting off the floor when it was all done. Everyone knew the Knicks were toast at that point.
3. Could you imagine what the reaction would be if Lebron went to a casino the evening before a playoff game?
3. Windhorst would've shut that down before it began.
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A couple of observations about last night:
1. MJ really made the turn from the "fun superstar" to the "kind of a prick" between that first and third championship. Probably was always that way but still.
2. That Knicks Game 5 ending with "poor Charles Smith" getting blocked repeatedly was ridiculously intense. They didn't show the best part though which was Jordan and the Bulls just sprinting off the floor when it was all done. Everyone knew the Knicks were toast at that point.
3. Could you imagine what the reaction would be if Lebron went to a casino the evening before a playoff game?
Or if LeBron played 48 holes of golf the morning of game 4 in the finals against the other teams best player?
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Or if LeBron played 48 holes of golf the morning of game 4 in the finals against the other teams best player?
The reaction against Jordan would have been similar (but not as intense only bc of social media today, not bc it is MJ
rather than LJ) IF HE DIDN'T WIN EVERY GD PLAYOFF SERIES IN THOSE 6 YEARS.
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Just listened to a podcast with the director and he is hinting that the juicy stuff is really going to start next week. So far my takeaway is this is awesome mainly because I was only 9 years old in his last season with the Bulls so I certainly didn't appreciate what I was watching. And I really hated him because I was still naïve enough to think my Bucks should've been awesome and didn't realize what an awful franchise they were for my entire life until the last 2 or 3 years at that point, so I hated watch him kick the Bucks' butt all the time, so seeing footage of just how damn good/dominant he was is incredible. But there hasn't been a ton of super eye raising moments. So far I've found how big of dicks him and Scottie were to Kucoc, for nothing Kucoc did, as the most surprising thing.
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I knew that they took out their hatred of Jerry Krause on Kukoc. I didn't know that MJ was also motivated by Krause's love of Dan Majerle as well.
That line about Isiah was something:
"I respect Isiah Thomas’ talent. To me, the best point guard of all-time is Magic Johnson. And right behind him is Isiah Thomas. No matter how much I hate him. And I respect his game."
So with all the spinning last week that MJ never really said he didn't want Thomas on the team, it was pretty clear that MJ (and others) didn't want Thomas on the team.
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Just listened to a podcast with the director and he is hinting that the juicy stuff is really going to start next week. So far my takeaway is this is awesome mainly because I was only 9 years old in his last season with the Bulls so I certainly didn't appreciate what I was watching. And I really hated him because I was still naïve enough to think my Bucks should've been awesome and didn't realize what an awful franchise they were for my entire life until the last 2 or 3 years at that point, so I hated watch him kick the Bucks' butt all the time, so seeing footage of just how damn good/dominant he was is incredible. But there hasn't been a ton of super eye raising moments. So far I've found how big of dicks him and Scottie were to Kucoc, for nothing Kucoc did, as the most surprising thing.
I did hear that it got better as it went on. I love it for a similar reason as you wades. I loved Jordan, but other than some children’s level books, I didn’t really grasp everything at the time.
I still feel like it’s missing something. I guess I was hoping for more behind the scenes videos of 98. I guess you here all these rumors and stories about how MJ was, but feels like we haven’t seen it. The cloud of MJ’s final say kind of dampens it for me.
I thought MJ played a bigger role in Isaiah and the Dream Team than the doc showed. It sounds like they glossed over his gambling a bit and lessened how bad it was.
Maybe I was just hoping for something this wasn’t meant to be. There is a lot of good behind the scenes stuff. I just feel it’s sprinkled in with a lot we already know, even for someone who was young at the time.
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Two more very interesting episodes. I have totally enjoyed this series.
In a weird way, my respect for Jordan has increased because he allowed this warts-and-all footage to finally be aired.
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Let's be honest, this thing should be 20 episodes, and be about the entire Bulls dynasty, and gone chronologically.
The next episode will be the most interesting to me. Besides the whole Michael playing baseball narrative, that 93/94 team without Jordan played awesome basketball. It was Pippen's best PER year, Grant's second best PER year, and I'd argue Phil Jackson's best coaching job. Call me a bitter homer, but Hue Hollins cost the Bulls at least a chance to win another title (I realize it was the east semi's against the Knicks).
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I knew that they took out their hatred of Jerry Krause on Kukoc. I didn't know that MJ was also motivated by Krause's love of Dan Majerle as well.
That line about Isiah was something:
"I respect Isiah Thomas’ talent. To me, the best point guard of all-time is Magic Johnson. And right behind him is Isiah Thomas. No matter how much I hate him. And I respect his game."
So with all the spinning last week that MJ never really said he didn't want Thomas on the team, it was pretty clear that MJ (and others) didn't want Thomas on the team.
Isiah dug his own grave. Even if Jordan had no say, he had also pissed off the other top two guys in Magic and Bird.
Reminds me of Shoeless Joe in Field of Dreams when he says, "Ty Cobb wanted to play but none of us could stand the son of a bitch when we were alive, so we told him to stick it".
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Let's be honest, this thing should be 20 episodes, and be about the entire Bulls dynasty, and gone chronologically.
The next episode will be the most interesting to me. Besides the whole Michael playing baseball narrative, that 93/94 team without Jordan played awesome basketball. It was Pippen's best PER year, Grant's second best PER year, and I'd argue Phil Jackson's best coaching job. Call me a bitter homer, but Hue Hollins cost the Bulls at least a chance to win another title (I realize it was the east semi's against the Knicks).
I agree wholeheartedly. However a Bulls victory would have deprived us of the Reggie Miller / Spike Lee showdown.
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Call me a bitter homer, but Hue Hollins cost the Bulls at least a chance to win another title (I realize it was the east semi's against the Knicks).
Also cost Scottie a lot of glory.
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Let's be honest, this thing should be 20 episodes, and be about the entire Bulls dynasty, and gone chronologically.
Amen. I'm really enjoying it, but find the organization distracting. It hops all over the place again and again. Each time they jump to something new we try to guess where they might be going next. I'm sure that if you talked to the film-makers they could explain why they did it the way that they did, but as a viewer it drives me crazy. There is no question that I'm enjoying it in spite of the editing and organization, not because of it.
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Amen. I'm really enjoying it, but find the organization distracting. It hops all over the place again and again. Each time they jump to something new we try to guess where they might be going next. I'm sure that if you talked to the film-makers they could explain why they did it the way that they did, but as a viewer it drives me crazy. There is no question that I'm enjoying it in spite of the editing and organization, not because of it.
What they are doing is using all the behind the scenes footage they have for the final season to build a documentary about the dynasty. Almost everything they are using for the "retroactive looks" at previous seasons is covered through publically available footage or interviews.
So it would be weird to do it chronologically because all the film captured from behind the scenes would only be shown in the last couple of episodes.
It definitely isn't seemless, and its easy for me to follow because I lived through it, but I understand why they chose to do it this way.
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What they are doing is using all the behind the scenes footage they have for the final season to build a documentary about the dynasty. Almost everything they are using for the "retroactive looks" at previous seasons is covered through publically available footage or interviews.
So it would be weird to do it chronologically because all the film captured from behind the scenes would only be shown in the last couple of episodes.
It definitely isn't seemless, and its easy for me to follow because I lived through it, but I understand why they chose to do it this way.
I suppose that makes sense, but I find it distracting. Last night they were last game in MSG in the throwback shoes (behind the scenes footage), so naturally we went back to the initial Nike deal. I guess if you're trying to do a comprehensive Michael Jordan/Bulls Dynasty documentary, that stuff needs to be in there. And if you want to build it around the unseen behind the scenes footage, you've got to jump around a lot.
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Also cost Scottie a lot of glory.
Scottie infamously took himself out of Game 3 with 1.8 seconds left when Jackson called Kokuc's number for the decisive shot -- which Kukoc hit for the win.
Jackson's brilliance was fully on display here. First, it was a great play call -- even Pippen admitted that later. Kukoc caught the ball in stride from a place he could make the shot, and he wasn't defended the way Pippen would have been.
More important was the way Jackson handled it afterward. Rather than suspending Pippen for the insubordination or even benching him for a single game, Jackson handled it as quietly and professionally as possible, and his comments in the aftermath of the incident served to help Pippen keep his dignity. It probably would be hyperbole to say Jackson "saved Pippen's career," but he certainly played a role in Pippen not being ostracized for years.
Remember, this was 26 years ago, when coaches and players didn't see eye-to-eye as often as they do today. Many a coach would have handled it differently -- and wrong.
I honestly think Jackson is underrated as a coach, as hard as that might be to believe.
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Pippen came back with a huge game in Game 4 and had that massive dunk on Ewing in Game 6 too.
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A couple of observations about last night:
1. MJ really made the turn from the "fun superstar" to the "kind of a prick" between that first and third championship. Probably was always that way but still.
2. That Knicks Game 5 ending with "poor Charles Smith" getting blocked repeatedly was ridiculously intense. They didn't show the best part though which was Jordan and the Bulls just sprinting off the floor when it was all done. Everyone knew the Knicks were toast at that point.
3. Could you imagine what the reaction would be if Lebron went to a casino the evening before a playoff game?
Re: 3. Could any more media possibly have squeezed into the Bulls practice gym the next day? There wasn't any open court space while their practice was supposed to be starting. Articles written. Questions about it for weeks. It probably wouldn't have been any worse. The difference would have been that after falling behind 0-2 and being in the limelight, LeBron probably would've pouted and they would've been swept out of the series, while MJ goes out and dominates his way to a 3 peat. But I'll give him credit. LeBron doesn't do that stuff. He stays out of the limelight.
Imagine if MJ would have gotten coaches fired left and right rather than being pissed Doug Collins was fired and then walking away when Phil Jackson was let go. Blatt, Lue, and Walton fired to appease LeBron, and Spoelstra would've been too if Pat Riley wasn't possibly the one person in the NBA that will actually stand up to LeBron (which led to LeBron leaving town).
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Cant beleive no one has mentioned the glass Gatorade bottles. Awesome to drink out of, fun to smash in the garbage after a little league game, sucked when it broke in your sports bag.
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Cant beleive no one has mentioned the glass Gatorade bottles. Awesome to drink out of, fun to smash in the garbage after a little league game, sucked when it broke in your sports bag.
To this day, any drink flavor, glass > plastic.
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What they are doing is using all the behind the scenes footage they have for the final season to build a documentary about the dynasty. Almost everything they are using for the "retroactive looks" at previous seasons is covered through publically available footage or interviews.
So it would be weird to do it chronologically because all the film captured from behind the scenes would only be shown in the last couple of episodes.
It definitely isn't seemless, and its easy for me to follow because I lived through it, but I understand why they chose to do it this way.
Fluff,
I’m with you. I was in my 40s so I remember everything - don’t need a chronological recounting. Because of that, I’ve actually found the editing has enhanced the narrative.
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Fluff,
I’m with you. I was in my 40s so I remember everything - don’t need a chronological recounting. Because of that, I’ve actually found the editing has enhanced the narrative.
It had to be a tremendous undertaking.
There were several ways they could have gone, and I have found the way they have gone about it to be increasingly interesting as the series has progressed.
Each episode has tried to do 3 things -- focus on an individual who was core to the dynasty; recap the Bulls' chronology since drafting Jordan; recap the way the 1997-98 season played out. So far, I have liked the way the storytellers have weaved it all together.
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David Halberstam wrote a book about Michael Jordan, Playing for Keeps: Michael Jordan and the World He Made in the mid 2000s that wrote about most of the stories told in this series. In fact, it follows the Halberstam book close enough that the series could have a tag line saying "Based on the Book by David Halberstam."
The stories about Dan Majerle, about Tony Kukoc and about the visceral hatred of Jerry Krause all were covered extensively in Mr. Halberstam's book.
I think Jordan is less a jerk than a driven competitor who must win. And a guy who does not like slights either. The whole Sports Illustrated thing over the "Bag it Michael" cover is amusing if not sad. My guess is Mr. Jordan is less worried about his image now than ever before.
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David Halberstam wrote a book about Michael Jordan, Playing for Keeps: Michael Jordan and the World He Made in the mid 2000s that wrote about most of the stories told in this series. In fact, it follows the Halberstam book close enough that the series could have a tag line saying "Based on the Book by David Halberstam."
The stories about Dan Majerle, about Tony Kukoc and about the visceral hatred of Jerry Krause all were covered extensively in Mr. Halberstam's book.
I think Jordan is less a jerk than a driven competitor who must win. And a guy who does not like slights either. The whole Sports Illustrated thing over the "Bag it Michael" cover is amusing if not sad. My guess is Mr. Jordan is less worried about his image now than ever before.
I never read that book and it sounds like I should. I am a big fan of Halberstam's work, including The Best and the Brightest, The Breaks of the Game and Summer of '49.
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If nothing else, this series has been a fun reminder of how great and just freaky Michael Jordan was. There was a Sports Science episode a few years ago where they tried to compare various athletes overall athleticism. They rated Lebron #1 and Jordan #2.
For just pure size, speed, strength measurables, I might agree with that. However, there are a couple of things that make me think that if prime Jordan and prime LeBron battled it out, Jordan would come out the winner. LeBron is competetive, but Jordan is "killer" competetive to the point it's not even close in terms of strength of will to win. Also, Jordan has a legendary energy level that even as great an athlete as LeBron is, he's not in MJs class for endurance/energy level. To me LeBron may be the most physically gifted athlete of my lifetime, but Jordan is the best basketball player to lace them up in my 50 years on this earth. It's been fun to relive his legacy the past few weeks even though I rooted against he and the Bulls.
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If nothing else, this series has been a fun reminder of how great and just freaky Michael Jordan was. There was a Sports Science episode a few years ago where they tried to compare various athletes overall athleticism. They rated Lebron #1 and Jordan #2.
For just pure size, speed, strength measurables, I might agree with that. However, there are a couple of things that make me think that if prime Jordan and prime LeBron battled it out, Jordan would come out the winner. LeBron is competetive, but Jordan is "killer" competetive to the point it's not even close in terms of strength of will to win. Also, Jordan has a legendary energy level that even as great an athlete as LeBron is, he's not in MJs class for endurance/energy level. To me LeBron may be the most physically gifted athlete of my lifetime, but Jordan is the best basketball player to lace them up in my 50 years on this earth. It's been fun to relive his legacy the past few weeks even though I rooted against he and the Bulls.
+ 1
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My argument for why Jordan has always been the best is exactly that Sir Lawrence.
Is LeBron an incredibly talented basketball player? Absolutely.
But nobody, had that killer instinct that Jordan had and it can’t be taught. Just go to YouTube and type in Michael Jordan stories. I highly doubt you’re going to get those stories when LeBron retires.
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If nothing else, this series has been a fun reminder of how great and just freaky Michael Jordan was. There was a Sports Science episode a few years ago where they tried to compare various athletes overall athleticism. They rated Lebron #1 and Jordan #2.
For just pure size, speed, strength measurables, I might agree with that. However, there are a couple of things that make me think that if prime Jordan and prime LeBron battled it out, Jordan would come out the winner. LeBron is competetive, but Jordan is "killer" competetive to the point it's not even close in terms of strength of will to win. Also, Jordan has a legendary energy level that even as great an athlete as LeBron is, he's not in MJs class for endurance/energy level. To me LeBron may be the most physically gifted athlete of my lifetime, but Jordan is the best basketball player to lace them up in my 50 years on this earth. It's been fun to relive his legacy the past few weeks even though I rooted against he and the Bulls.
Yeah, this pretty much sums it up. In my opinion, MJ and LeBron are neck and neck in the GOAT discussion, but this is the tie-breaker. MJ was a stone cold killer. LeBron has never quite had that.
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I agree.
It's interesting looking at the advanced stats for both of them. Lebron is a slightly better shooter, mostly because he is a better 3 point shooter than Jordan was. Lebron is the better distributor, which I don't think anyone is surprised by.
But Jordan's TO% was insane when you look at his usage. He rarely turned the ball over for how much he had it in his hands.
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Nobody can ever "prove" whether Michael was better than LeBron, or vice versa. I will offer this, though ...
At the time Jordan played, defenses basically were allowed to mug offensive players. He was routinely grabbed, held, shoved, stiff-armed, etc. (He got away with plenty of that when he was on defense, too, so it was a 2-way street.) Nevertheless, he was able to dominate offensively, and did a lot of his best work in the playoffs, when refs were even less likely to want to "decide the game."
James, meanwhile, plays in an era in which defenders are not even supposed to touch offensive players. "Freedom of movement" rules guarantee that cutters are less likely to be held or shoved, and ballhandlers are less likely to be arm-barred or steered where they don't want to go.
LeBron is big enough, strong enough, talented enough and smart enough to have been a superstar in any era. He would have been great even had he played against the likes of the Bad Boy Pistons and the Ewing-Starks-Mason Knicks.
But put Michael in today's game? He might have averaged 40 over his career instead of 30. Michael would have gone to the line more than Harden does.
What I just said doesn't "prove" anything, either. All of this stuff is a bunch of opinions. But I think it's a pretty significant thing when comparing players of different eras.
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Nobody can ever "prove" whether Michael was better than LeBron, or vice versa. I will offer this, though ...
At the time Jordan played, defenses basically were allowed to mug offensive players. He was routinely grabbed, held, shoved, stiff-armed, etc. (He got away with plenty of that when he was on defense, too, so it was a 2-way street.) Nevertheless, he was able to dominate offensively, and did a lot of his best work in the playoffs, when refs were even less likely to want to "decide the game."
James, meanwhile, plays in an era in which defenders are not even supposed to touch offensive players. "Freedom of movement" rules guarantee that cutters are less likely to be held or shoved, and ballhandlers are less likely to be arm-barred or steered where they don't want to go.
LeBron is big enough, strong enough, talented enough and smart enough to have been a superstar in any era. He would have been great even had he played against the likes of the Bad Boy Pistons and the Ewing-Starks-Mason Knicks.
But put Michael in today's game? He might have averaged 40 over his career instead of 30. Michael would have gone to the line more than Harden does.
What I just said doesn't "prove" anything, either. All of this stuff is a bunch of opinions. But I think it's a pretty significant thing when comparing players of different eras.
Very good points.
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Based on the ad I just saw on FB, they will go into Jordan punching Kerr. Not sure if they will show the video.
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Man, I thought both episodes were great tonight.
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The last 2 minutes of episode 7 was something.
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I thought the first 3 weeks were much better.
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I paused the tv for about five minutes after episode 7. The culmination of his father’s death to how that episode ended was heavy. The series could have ended right there. I’ll be curious to see how they end it next week, because the last two minutes of episode 7 was near perfect.
Notice that when the Bulls are running suicides at the beginning of the end of that episode, Jordan is dominating the sprint.
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Also, no one came off looking better in tonight’s episodes than Hue Hollins.
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Man, I thought both episodes were great tonight.
Agreed. Enjoyed them tremendously.
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Even though I've seen that clip of Jordan sobbing before after winning the first title without his dad being alive, tonight was the first time I ever got a little choked up watching it after all the buildup to that moment. I love this whole series, it's a nice break from all the awfulness going on in the world right now.
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I found it a bit hypocritical Reinsdorf paid Jordan his Bulls contract while he played baseball, but wouldn’t renegotiate Pippen’s deal. He even said some of the reasoning was due to Jordan being underpaid.
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the air was taken out of me on how some in the press really wanted to work the gambling issue despite no there, there. i shouldn't be surprised given the modern day examples after examples of this type of thing being perpetrated. however, if a "journalist"(s) would have ever tried to do this on say bart starr or brett favre, their careers would have been done, in green bay anyway. i'm not comparing michael to bart and/or brett, but it showed that no mountain was high enough for a "journalist" to go after. and then to try to tie in his father's murder and subsequent retiring from basketball all intertwined. despicable as it was, i'm thinking there were some looking for their "big scoop" in the wrong place. it would be interesting what became of some of these guys
i loved jordan's response to the SI front page pic and article when he was playing baseball-the cover pic showed jordan whiffing and missing a ball by 3 feet and the corresponding article, never asked mike his opinion on any of it. he said they never approached him and thatresuted in jordan never speaking to SI again. michael went on to say, SI was criticizing him because he was doing what he(michael) wanted to do baseball) and not what SI felt he should be doing(basketball) that was so enlightening.
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the air was taken out of me on how some in the press really wanted to work the gambling issue despite no there, there. i shouldn't be surprised given the modern day examples after examples of this type of thing being perpetrated. however, if a "journalist"(s) would have ever tried to do this on say bart starr or brett favre, their careers would have been done, in green bay anyway. i'm not comparing michael to bart and/or brett, but it showed that no mountain was high enough for a "journalist" to go after. and then to try to tie in his father's murder and subsequent retiring from basketball all intertwined. despicable as it was, i'm thinking there were some looking for their "big scoop" in the wrong place. it would be interesting what became of some of these guys
i loved jordan's response to the SI front page pic and article when he was playing baseball-the cover pic showed jordan whiffing and missing a ball by 3 feet and the corresponding article, never asked mike his opinion on any of it. he said they never approached him and thatresuted in jordan never speaking to SI again. michael went on to say, SI was criticizing him because he was doing what he(michael) wanted to do baseball) and not what SI felt he should be doing(basketball) that was so enlightening.
I agree with your first paragraph, but I think you are being pretty rosy about Starr and Favre. When Starr was a coach, he was getting roasted pretty regularly by the likes of Cliff Christl, and Favre was hardly immune when it came to Bob McGinn.
But I don't agree with the second. MJ's attitude that they should have talked with him to understand his "passion." I mean, WTF? Who cares about your passion? You're a .202 hitter in AA baseball, and I know people want to kiss his a$$, but there was zero chance that he makes the majors.
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I found it a bit hypocritical Reinsdorf paid Jordan his Bulls contract while he played baseball, but wouldn’t renegotiate Pippen’s deal. He even said some of the reasoning was due to Jordan being underpaid.
IMO, he paid him his basketball contract so he would sign with the White Sox and out of hopes he would come back.
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I agree with your first paragraph, but I think you are being pretty rosy about Starr and Favre. When Starr was a coach, he was getting roasted pretty regularly by the likes of Cliff Christl, and Favre was hardly immune when it came to Bob McGinn.
But I don't agree with the second. MJ's attitude that they should have talked with him to understand his "passion." I mean, WTF? Who cares about your passion? You're a .202 hitter in AA baseball, and I know people want to kiss his a$$, but there was zero chance that he makes the majors.
i probably should have made myself more clear-personal life although bart was probably cleaner than the parish priest. brett...?
i don't believe michael expected them(SI) to talk to him and/or he really had the expectations of making it to the show. i think it was the attempt at a hit to his pride. maybe if they would have spoken to him however, his goal wasn't necessarily on making it to the bigs. it was more or less fulfilling a dream or "bucket list" check off. if he made it to the bigs-bonus. there sure seemed to be some bad blood there however. i can see both sides to all of this. michael was a "dick" for a number of reasons. 1)-cuz he was that good, 2)he had high expectatons 3) competitor, 4) he could
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i probably should have made myself more clear-personal life although bart was probably cleaner than the parish priest. brett...?
i don't believe michael expected them(SI) to talk to him and/or he really had the expectations of making it to the show. i think it was the attempt at a hit to his pride. maybe if they would have spoken to him however, his goal wasn't necessarily on making it to the bigs. it was more or less fulfilling a dream or "bucket list" check off. if he made it to the bigs-bonus. there sure seemed to be some bad blood there however. i can see both sides to all of this. michael was a "dick" for a number of reasons. 1)-cuz he was that good, 2)he had high expectatons 3) competitor, 4) he could
Again, who cares if its his dream? He is a professional athlete playing a sport pretty poorly. Here is the article. It's harsh, but I don't think it's unfair.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1994/03/14/err-jordan-try-as-he-might-michael-jordan-has-found-baseball-beyong-his-grasp
Sure he didn't talk to SI again, but that's just what he did to get fired up.
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The subject's "passion" has nothing to do with anything. I'm pretty sure most athletes, coaches and GMs in all sports have "passion" for what they do. Does that mean all of them should beyond criticism? If Tom Brady decided to give up football to play basketball, and if he was horrible at basketball, should nobody criticize him because basketball is his "passion"? Does the fact that Wojo is passionate about Marquette basketball mean that Scoop shouldn't even exist?
I have no problem with SI's writer doing an opinion piece - which is exactly what that was - and there is absolutely no "unwritten rule" that a writer doing such an article talk to the subject. I mean, I wrote many a "Wannstedt has to go" and "Jauron has to go" and "McNown has to go" columns without asking Wannstedt, Jauron and McNown about it every time. Then again, none of those clowns was Michael Jordan, and sure, it would have been classy for the SI writer to talk to him before writing it.
I disagree with Sultan that Jordan had no chance at the majors; I firmly believe that if the 1995 season had played out as scheduled, without the lockout, Jordan would have stayed in baseball and Reinsdorf would have made sure he was brought up to Chicago that September. The 1995 White Sox sucked, and they often had trouble convincing 20K people to watch them. Jordan would have guaranteed many sellouts, both at home and on the road, in what otherwise turned out to be a month to completely ignore.
Now, whether Jordan actually would have earned such a promotion, and whether he would have been good enough ever to be more than a September cup-of-coffee call-up, those are entirely different issues. I certainly agree that it is highly unlikely Jordan would have been good enough to make a big-league ballclub out of spring training.
As for all the gambling suspension stuff, especially with the links to James Jordan's death, I remember thinking back then that it was handled extremely poorly by many members of the media. Particularly TV outlets, but also unfortunately some sportswriters, even guys who weren't considered hacks. I wasn't surprised to see it from the likes of the NY Post and National Enquirer, but I was disappointed that so many members of the legitimate media piled on. Such poor judgment gives people like rocket - who blindly excuses and justifies the daily atrocities of his favorite politician - permission to stamp all "journalists" with one "enemy of the people" label.
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I enjoyed this series, but hoped for a mention of the two NBA championships of my Houston Rockets ...but, alas, I have come to accept I live not in Clutch City but rather in Asterisk Town:
93/94 NBA Houston Rockets * (the Bulls/MJ simply were on a break)
2017 MLB Houston Astericks * (MLB didnt need to take the trophy away--everyone else, including history, already has)
1982-83 NCAA Houston Cougars, a/k/a Phi Slamma Jamma * (Not even a champ, thanks to Jimmy V's NC State)
1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 WBNA Houston Comets* (Its the "Womens" NBA, not even the jv or even frosh level, hello)
1960, 1961 AFL Houston Oilers* (seriously, did the AFL even exist pre color TV?)
Our Htown population may soon approach No. 3 Chicago but rest assured for sports fandom success Chitown will always be better Congrats to the Bulls-- that was a great run
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The subject's "passion" has nothing to do with anything. I'm pretty sure most athletes, coaches and GMs in all sports have "passion" for what they do. Does that mean all of them should beyond criticism? If Tom Brady decided to give up football to play basketball, and if he was horrible at basketball, should nobody criticize him because basketball is his "passion"? Does the fact that Wojo is passionate about Marquette basketball mean that Scoop shouldn't even exist?
I have no problem with SI's writer doing an opinion piece - which is exactly what that was - and there is absolutely no "unwritten rule" that a writer doing such an article talk to the subject. I mean, I wrote many a "Wannstedt has to go" and "Jauron has to go" and "McNown has to go" columns without asking Wannstedt, Jauron and McNown about it every time. Then again, none of those clowns was Michael Jordan, and sure, it would have been classy for the SI writer to talk to him before writing it.
I disagree with Sultan that Jordan had no chance at the majors; I firmly believe that if the 1995 season had played out as scheduled, without the lockout, Jordan would have stayed in baseball and Reinsdorf would have made sure he was brought up to Chicago that September. The 1995 White Sox sucked, and they often had trouble convincing 20K people to watch them. Jordan would have guaranteed many sellouts, both at home and on the road, in what otherwise turned out to be a month to completely ignore.
Now, whether Jordan actually would have earned such a promotion, and whether he would have been good enough ever to be more than a September cup-of-coffee call-up, those are entirely different issues. I certainly agree that it is highly unlikely Jordan would have been good enough to make a big-league ballclub out of spring training.
As for all the gambling suspension stuff, especially with the links to James Jordan's death, I remember thinking back then that it was handled extremely poorly by many members of the media. Particularly TV outlets, but also unfortunately some sportswriters, even guys who weren't considered hacks. I wasn't surprised to see it from the likes of the NY Post and National Enquirer, but I was disappointed that so many members of the legitimate media piled on. Such poor judgment gives people like rocket - who blindly excuses and justifies the daily atrocities of his favorite politician - permission to stamp all "journalists" with one "enemy of the people" label.
If anyone knows "hot takes that backfire for $800, Alex," it's this guy right here.
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The subject's "passion" has nothing to do with anything. I'm pretty sure most athletes, coaches and GMs in all sports have "passion" for what they do. Does that mean all of them should beyond criticism? If Tom Brady decided to give up football to play basketball, and if he was horrible at basketball, should nobody criticize him because basketball is his "passion"? Does the fact that Wojo is passionate about Marquette basketball mean that Scoop shouldn't even exist?
I have no problem with SI's writer doing an opinion piece - which is exactly what that was - and there is absolutely no "unwritten rule" that a writer doing such an article talk to the subject. I mean, I wrote many a "Wannstedt has to go" and "Jauron has to go" and "McNown has to go" columns without asking Wannstedt, Jauron and McNown about it every time. Then again, none of those clowns was Michael Jordan, and sure, it would have been classy for the SI writer to talk to him before writing it.
I disagree with Sultan that Jordan had no chance at the majors; I firmly believe that if the 1995 season had played out as scheduled, without the lockout, Jordan would have stayed in baseball and Reinsdorf would have made sure he was brought up to Chicago that September. The 1995 White Sox sucked, and they often had trouble convincing 20K people to watch them. Jordan would have guaranteed many sellouts, both at home and on the road, in what otherwise turned out to be a month to completely ignore.
Now, whether Jordan actually would have earned such a promotion, and whether he would have been good enough ever to be more than a September cup-of-coffee call-up, those are entirely different issues. I certainly agree that it is highly unlikely Jordan would have been good enough to make a big-league ballclub out of spring training.
As for all the gambling suspension stuff, especially with the links to James Jordan's death, I remember thinking back then that it was handled extremely poorly by many members of the media. Particularly TV outlets, but also unfortunately some sportswriters, even guys who weren't considered hacks. I wasn't surprised to see it from the likes of the NY Post and National Enquirer, but I was disappointed that so many members of the legitimate media piled on. Such poor judgment gives people like rocket - who blindly excuses and justifies the daily atrocities of his favorite politician - permission to stamp all "journalists" with one "enemy of the people" label.
I don’t know if it’s painting a rosier picture 25 years later, but it sounds like people thought Jordan had the talent to make it to MLB. Hitting .200 after not playing since high school, is pretty impressive for that level. People also said the amount he improved from the beginning to end of season was incredible. In Fall League, he hit .250.
I also would be surprised if Jordan did this to just check the box. He doesn’t seem to do anything to just check a box.
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I enjoyed this series, but hoped for a mention of the two NBA championships of my Houston Rockets ...but, alas, I have come to accept I live not in Clutch City but rather in Asterisk Town:
93/94 NBA Houston Rockets * (the Bulls/MJ simply were on a break)
2017 MLB Houston Astericks * (MLB didnt need to take the trophy away--everyone else, including history, already has)
1982-83 NCAA Houston Cougars, a/k/a Phi Slamma Jamma * (Not even a champ, thanks to Jimmy V's NC State)
1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 WBNA Houston Comets* (Its the "Womens" NBA, not even the jv or even frosh level, hello)
1960, 1961 AFL Houston Oilers* (seriously, did the AFL even exist pre color TV?)
Our Htown population may soon approach No. 3 Chicago but rest assured for sports fandom success Chitown will always be better Congrats to the Bulls-- that was a great run
At least your Rockets can always put the asterisk on the Warriors with the internal audit the Rockets ran on the Western Conference Finals that they claim to have really won.
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Again, who cares if its his dream? He is a professional athlete playing a sport pretty poorly. Here is the article. It's harsh, but I don't think it's unfair.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1994/03/14/err-jordan-try-as-he-might-michael-jordan-has-found-baseball-beyong-his-grasp
Sure he didn't talk to SI again, but that's just what he did to get fired up.
you're right fluff-who cares? well, i don't. mj evidently did or he would have spoken to SI post article. Si i'm sure cared but accepted the consequences. i don't think i was faulting either one. SI writes stories to sell and mj can do what he wants. just saying SI burned a bridge to the most populat athlete at the time...again...who cares, just saying that's all
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"legitimate media "
If anyone knows "hot takes that backfire for $800, Alex," it's this guy right here.
bwahahaahahaha bwhahahah haha ha hahah ah ha
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I don’t know if it’s painting a rosier picture 25 years later, but it sounds like people thought Jordan had the talent to make it to MLB. Hitting .200 after not playing since high school, is pretty impressive for that level. People also said the amount he improved from the beginning to end of season was incredible. In Fall League, he hit .250.
I also would be surprised if Jordan did this to just check the box. He doesn’t seem to do anything to just check a box.
Yessir. The guy did drive in 50 runs in AA after not touching a bat for years. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that, with continued improvement, he could have made it. Highly unlikely, IMHO, because big-league pitchers would have been brutal on him, but not impossible.
And totally agree with your second paragraph. Michael didn't just want a walk in the park.
If anyone knows "hot takes that backfire for $800, Alex," it's this guy right here.
Dribble.
"legitimate media "
bwahahaahahaha bwhahahah haha ha hahah ah ha
I'm willing to debate the role of the media with you all day long, rocket, but I'd rather not let you ruin this thread as you seem to be trying to do. I want to keep this on topic, about The Last Dance and related things.
So either PM me, or take your barely coherent ramblings over to one of the wild-west threads on the COVID board.
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Also, no one came off looking better in tonight’s episodes than Hue Hollins.
I went the entire decade of the 90's without thinking about Scott Burrell as much as I did last night.
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Am I the only one who was shocked when they showed Jud Buechler as a forward for the Bulls during his interview? I would've sworn he was a journalist and not a player.
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The two things I liked most about last night's episodes:
1. Kerr and Jordan recounting the details of their fist-fight. Back then, in real time, they had denied that anything happened, but of course details leaked out pretty quickly.
2. Jordan laughing out loud when Payton's comments were relayed. It was cocky, "get that shyte outta here" Michael at his finest.
The thing I liked least:
Jordan saying Payton's defense had absolutely nothing to do with Jordan's less-effective play in Games 4 and 5, suggesting instead that he was thinking of his dad even though Father's Day was still several days away.
Occasionally, MJ actually was outplayed, even when he was in his prime. It rarely happened for more than a game or two, and he usually got revenge big-time, as he did in Game 6. But to claim that he didn't play well in Game 4 on June 12 because he was thinking about Father's Day, which was two games and four days away ...
For a guy who prided himself on being able to tune out all distractions and destroy his opponent like an assassin, that seemed a lame excuse.
+++
Related ...
Steve Kerr was not much more than an afterthought when the Bulls signed him before the 1993-94 season. He was seen as eventually replacing Paxson, but he wasn't as good as Paxson.
We lived near Lane Tech and on a Saturday afternoon in the fall of 1995 Kerr appeared at the Dominick's right down the street to sign autographs. My son, who was 8 years old, found a Kerr basketball card and begged me to take him, so we walked over there. There were no fans there when we arrived, nor did anyone else show up as he talked with my son for about 10 minutes (very, very nice of him BTW), nor was anyone else coming up to see him as we left the store.
He might as well have been Jud or Dickey.
Obviously, he ended up having some big moments for the Bulls after Michael returned, including a title-clinching shot. Michael eventually made him a ton of money, as Kerr got a way-too-big contract from San Antonio. And of course Kerr has gone on to be a great coach, and he was an outstanding announcer, too.
But for 15+ minutes in 1995, nobody gave a rat's rump that Steve Kerr was signing autographs for free at Dominick's. Had he done the same even a year later, when everybody associated with Michael & The Bulls achieved rock-star status, there probably would have been a line out the door.
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Batting .202 in Double A after not playing 14 years at age 31 is remarkable to me. 95% of players start in Rookie ball or A ball around age 20 or so.
With his work ethic I think he would be more than able to adjust to the pitchers. The biggest obstacle to him making the majors in my opinion would have been his age. Baseball players tend to decline around age 33.
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I went the entire decade of the 90's without thinking about Scott Burrell as much as I did last night.
I love the amount of disrespect in this clip.
(http://fedhistory.angelfire.com/test/ezgif-3-1749822aa0c5.gif)
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Batting .202 in Double A after not playing 14 years at age 31 is remarkable to me. 95% of players start in Rookie ball or A ball around age 20 or so.
With his work ethic I think he would be more than able to adjust to the pitchers. The biggest obstacle to him making the majors in my opinion would have been his age. Baseball players tend to decline around age 33.
There was a lot of chatter from current/former baseball players on twitter last night stating that Jordan's baseball stats were definitely impressive, all things consideres.
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BTW, I saw Dickey Simpkins last night and got a shudder down my spine.
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BTW, I saw Dickey Simpkins last night and got a shudder down my spine.
Liar. You got a hashtag shudder down your spine.
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BTW, I saw Dickey Simpkins last night and got a shudder down my spine.
Was really hoping he'd be the target of MJ. Dickey was always my least favorite Bull haha.
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Dickey Simpkins and Brad Sellers are two Bulls players who couldn't handle the MJ pressure. I'm sure I'm missing a few more.
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I paused the tv for about five minutes after episode 7. The culmination of his father’s death to how that episode ended was heavy. The series could have ended right there. I’ll be curious to see how they end it next week, because the last two minutes of episode 7 was near perfect.
Notice that when the Bulls are running suicides at the beginning of the end of that episode, Jordan is dominating the sprint.
https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/1259824027515879425?s=20
(https://chumley.barstoolsports.com/union/2020/05/11/51eec2c6.png)
https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/2421916/the-end-of-episode-7-of-the-last-dance-will-be-my-lasting-image-of-michael-jordan
"Michael Jordan is very well aware of the fact that Mike Jordan from Wilmington, North Carolina is dead and that Michael Jordan killed him."
Episode 7 was by far my favorite.
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Yessir. The guy did drive in 50 runs in AA after not touching a bat for years. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that, with continued improvement, he could have made it. Highly unlikely, IMHO, because big-league pitchers would have been brutal on him, but not impossible.
And totally agree with your second paragraph. Michael didn't just want a walk in the park.
Dribble.
I'm willing to debate the role of the media with you all day long, rocket, but I'd rather not let you ruin this thread as you seem to be trying to do. I want to keep this on topic, about The Last Dance and related things.
So either PM me, or take your barely coherent ramblings over to one of the wild-west threads on the COVID board.
82 i agree with you that jordan had the athletic ability and drive to very possibly make it to the show. his work ethic and competitive spirit was 2nd to none plus the draw of MJ would have been business no brainers
ruin thread?? one little bomb toss and i'm ruining a thread? and you've locked down how many in just the past 6-12 mos? fresh air man. more fluids and social distancing ;)
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82 i agree with you that jordan had the athletic ability and drive to very possibly make it to the show. his work ethic and competitive spirit was 2nd to none plus the draw of MJ would have been business no brainers
ruin thread?? one little bomb toss and i'm ruining a thread? and you've locked down how many in just the past 6-12 mos? fresh air man. more fluids and social distancing ;)
None. But otherwise, I'll give you the last word.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CAEFSmiBQ_o/?igshid=m86tqbed2l7o
The internet is still undefeated.
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I found it a bit hypocritical Reinsdorf paid Jordan his Bulls contract while he played baseball, but wouldn’t renegotiate Pippen’s deal. He even said some of the reasoning was due to Jordan being underpaid.
I don’t see it as hypocritical. Reinsdorf also paid Jay Williams after he fell off a motorcycle his contract said he shouldn’t be driving. Deciding to be generous to guys not playing is different than renegotiating a contract that you counseled a player against signing but who demanded it. That’s a precedent he didn’t want to set.
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i forgot how much of a jerk krause was...and he thought he was the coolest kid on the block ::)
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i forgot how much of a jerk krause was...and he thought he was the coolest kid on the block ::)
Actually, rocket, Krause knew he was uncool as it gets - but he was a good scout and desperately wanted his “due”. And he alienated Phil and the players trying to get it at what seemed like their expense.
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Yeah from all indications he was a nice guy. Just had a Napoleon complex.
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https://youtu.be/e0Dlc1NYMIE
Pretty incredible. The last few minutes of episode 7 took place during the first day of interviews for the documentary. And just minutes after discussing/having a laugh about the early bulls cocaine use.
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I think 1995-96 was the top of the hill. They definitely were trending down (age, injuries) but I think they had one more title run in them.
Why?
Pippen was never the same after '98 with his back injury. His career as a star was over. Rodman was 37 and finished - he only played 35 more games in his career. Jordan was 35 and had the worst full season of his career in '98. Guys don't get better at that age.
On top of that, the team was absolutely physically and emotionally spent after the 3-peat. I think there was almost no chance that team could win another title if it had stayed together.
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Why?
Pippen was never the same after '98 with his back injury. His career as a star was over. Rodman was 37 and finished - he only played 35 more games in his career. Jordan was 35 and had the worst full season of his career in '98. Guys don't get better at that age.
On top of that, the team was absolutely physically and emotionally spent after the 3-peat. I think there was almost no chance that team could win another title if it had stayed together.
Totally disagree, sir.
At 38 years old and after taking 3 full years off from basketball, Jordan was averaging 25-6-5 in his first 50 games with the Wizards, playing 37 mpg, leading a bad team into the 6th position in the East, and was the popular choice for league MVP. He did suffer an injury a couple weeks later that killed their season, but I'm guessing he probably would have still been one of the league's 2-3 best players at 35 and 36.
His first year away from Chicago, at Houston, Pippen had decent stats but he and Barkley had a falling out and it ended up being a wasted year for him. The next two years, though, with Portland, he was a very good complementary player for a very good team. Had he and Jordan been re-signed for the next 3 years, he would have been even better as MJ's sidekick.
Kukoc was just entering his prime and would have been a big-time offensive player alongside Jordan and Pippen.
Harper was a valuable role player for two years with the Lakers, helping them win 2 titles.
They probably would have either talked Rodman into taking a 1-year, lowball offer or let him walk, so it would have been on Krause to find another good option the way he got Brian Williams (Bison Dele) for the '97 playoffs. Krause probably would have been able to get several good veterans to play with Jordan, Pippen and Kukoc. Jackson was arguably the best coach in league history.
Would they have won another title or two? We'll never know, but I'm quite sure they would have been favored at least in 1999 and probably 2000. They absolutely would have been top contenders.
Most franchises in most sports sell their souls just to have a legit shot at even one title. Those Bulls had the best player in the world, two outstanding sidekicks and the best coach in the world ... and they let 'em all walk rather than trying to win another title. Shame on Reinsdorf and Krause for their hubris and lack of vision.
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Totally disagree, sir.
........
Mike, you covered the team back then. What is your opinion of their mental/emotional state after their 3rd title of both 3-peats? Remember that they were playing 100+ games every year. When the team played 100 games, that meant Jordan played 100 games. There was no load management back in the 90s.
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Mike, you covered the team back then. What is your opinion of their mental/emotional state after their 3rd title of both 3-peats? Remember that they were playing 100+ games every year. When the team played 100 games, that meant Jordan played 100 games. There was no load management back in the 90s.
Their mental/emotional state was spent ... but only a little bit because of the basketball itself IMHO. It was spent because they were told before the season that this was gonna be it. They had to put so much energy into ... well ... it being The Last Dance.
If instead of that, had Jackson, Jordan and Pippen all gotten 3-year contract extentions, their mental/emotional state would have been fine. They would have been plenty tired, just as they were at the end of 1996 and 1997, and just as the Warriors were at the end of each season of their recent run. But they would have been fine.
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The last 2 minutes of episode 7 was something.
Dish I just watched this. That was a human representation of leadership and striving for excellence. While you can debate the how or the attitude, it showed that it is a lonely place out front.
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If the Bulls had brought back everyone in ‘99, they would have run away with the title.
The timing of the lockout was perfect. That next season doesn’t start until late January. Between the 50 game season and a lot of players showing up out of shape, Jordan would have willed that team to another title.
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Loved the quote “that’s all I needed for it to become personal...”
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If the Bulls had brought back everyone in ‘99, they would have run away with the title.
The timing of the lockout was perfect. That next season doesn’t start until late January. Between the 50 game season and a lot of players showing up out of shape, Jordan would have willed that team to another title.
Great point. They would have been rested and ready. And they would have had Michael. I'm not sure they would have "run away" with the title, as they didn't do that the previous season, but they would have been favorites. IMHO, they would have won it all.
And I was not then, nor am I now, nor have I ever been a Bulls fan.
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If the Bulls had brought back everyone in ‘99, they would have run away with the title.
The timing of the lockout was perfect. That next season doesn’t start until late January. Between the 50 game season and a lot of players showing up out of shape, Jordan would have willed that team to another title.
I think they would have won the ECF, but that Spurs team was VERY good.
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I missed it, what were the 6 words Pip said to Karl Malone?
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I missed it, what were the 6 words Pip said to Karl Malone?
Is this in reference to him saying “The Mailman doesn’t deliver on Sundays,” before Malone missed some key free throws?
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Is this in reference to him saying “The Mailman doesn’t deliver on Sundays,” before Malone missed some key free throws?
That was it. You beat me to it, cheebs.
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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/kevin-mchale-see-why-pistons-180701586.html
Kevin McHale weighs in.
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Now that was awesome.
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Jerry Krause’s explanation from an unpublished memoir:
https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/jerry-krause-explains-why-bulls-dynasty-unraveled-his-words
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Jerry Krause’s explanation from an unpublished memoir:
https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/jerry-krause-explains-why-bulls-dynasty-unraveled-his-words
Jordan disagreed with that narrative. And so do I.
Anyhoo ... I really enjoyed the series. A lot of fun, very well-told, brought back some great memories, provided some new insights.
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I don’t mean this as criticism of the doc, the filmmakers did a great job, especially to rush by 3 months to get this out early.
These are just little things I wish would have got either air time or more air time. I fully realize there’s only so many ways they could go and only so much time.
-I don’t think Ron Harper got any airtime outside of his non guarding of Jordan in ‘89. He was a popular teammate and changed his game to be an integral part of those teams.
-Bison Dele (to me) would have been a fascinating segment to dive into. Dele arguably better than Rodman that year, and the mystery around his death is a story worth telling.
-I think Pippen got shortchanged. I don’t know how that narrative should have got fixed though.
-Plenty of fabled stories left out, from Hue Hollins in 94, “Mailman don’t deliver on Sunday’s”, Jordan being iced out of the ASG.
These are just nitpicks, I give the producers a ton of credit for rushing this up. What they left on the cutting room floor could probably be its own 5 part series.
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I don’t mean this as criticism of the doc, the filmmakers did a great job, especially to rush by 3 months to get this out early.
These are just little things I wish would have got either air time or more air time. I fully realize there’s only so many ways they could go and only so much time.
-I don’t think Ron Harper got any airtime outside of his non guarding of Jordan in ‘89. He was a popular teammate and changed his game to be an integral part of those teams.
-Bison Dele (to me) would have been a fascinating segment to dive into. Dele arguably better than Rodman that year, and the mystery around his death is a story worth telling.
-I think Pippen got shortchanged. I don’t know how that narrative should have got fixed though.
-Plenty of fabled stories left out, from Hue Hollins in 94, “Mailman don’t deliver on Sunday’s”, Jordan being iced out of the ASG.
These are just nitpicks, I give the producers a ton of credit for rushing this up. What they left on the cutting room floor could probably be its own 5 part series.
And I'd sign up to watch it in a heartbeat
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If Reinsdorf didn't agree with Krause's strategy he could have fired him at anytime. It's odd to me that he's escaped criticism.
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Imagine for a moment that any of us had a boss who said in February or March, "your job is over at the end of the year."
If there's no reason for it, other than the boss wants to reconfigure, OK. That's his right. But I'm amazed the Bulls had enough pride to push to the championship one more time.
Krause was a good general manger. But he was an idiot for the way he handled Phil Jackson and Jordan as well as the team. You had a group of guys who were the best in their business and he was so full of himself that he was convinced he could build another Bulls. He was nuts. Michael Jordan comes around once in a generation. And, the talent and coaching he had around Jordan comes around less frequently than that. You stick with it as long as you can.
As for Scottie, he should have found a way to open and extend the contract and reward Pippin for uncharacteristically strong contributions to the franchise. Maybe a bonus for what he had accomplished.
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After watching the final episodes, I am convinced Michael Jordan is probably the only person alive who could say "F you bitch!" to Larry Bird and not have Larry Bird beat the living crap out of him. It was just done in fun but I don't think there's more than a handful of people in the world who could talk that way to Bird and have Bird just walk away with a slight smile on his face.
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Great documentary. A different era, a different style of basketball, but for my lifetime MJ will always be the GOAT.
I was a little disappointed as well that there wasn't more about Ron Harper. He was an integral piece of the puzzle and - before his injury - had jordan-esque athleticism. His body changed his game after the injury and he was never more than 80% of his young self but to take that and still play a major role on title teams is important.
I'm waiting for the next 10 episodes!!!
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Great documentary. A different era, a different style of basketball, but for my lifetime MJ will always be the GOAT.
I was a little disappointed as well that there wasn't more about Ron Harper. He was an integral piece of the puzzle and - before his injury - had jordan-esque athleticism. His body changed his game after the injury and he was never more than 80% of his young self but to take that and still play a major role on title teams is important.
I'm waiting for the next 10 episodes!!!
Wonder if Harper didnt want to be seen with his speech issues (which i believe he corrected with speech therapy later, but was an issue when he was with the Bulls.
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If Reinsdorf didn't agree with Krause's strategy he could have fired him at anytime. It's odd to me that he's escaped criticism.
I wouldn't say Reinsdorf escaped criticism at all. He was criticized quite heavily back in the late-90s and into the aughts for his role in the Bulls going from champions to laughingstocks.
And in Ep 10, Jordan looked into the camera and criticized his fellow NBA owner.
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Seeing a lot of doubting about the Food Poisoning story. Many seem to think Jordan was hungover.
Which is a little interesting because the opposite was the reaction for the thought his first retirement being a suspension. Everyone called that theory ridiculous and his father being killed due to his gambling was offensive.
Granted, what it would mean if each were true is far different scales, but just interesting to see the differences in reaction to different theories.
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Seeing a lot of doubting about the Food Poisoning story. Many seem to think Jordan was hungover.
Which is a little interesting because the opposite was the reaction for the thought his first retirement being a suspension. Everyone called that theory ridiculous and his father being killed due to his gambling was offensive.
Granted, what it would mean if each were true is far different scales, but just interesting to see the differences in reaction to different theories.
I think it was either food poisoning or a 24 hour bug.
The food poisoning angle allows Jordan to feel he has to overcome something did to him by someone else. Similar to how turns any slight into a motivation tactic.
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I wouldn't say Reinsdorf escaped criticism at all. He was criticized quite heavily back in the late-90s and into the aughts for his role in the Bulls going from champions to laughingstocks.
And in Ep 10, Jordan looked into the camera and criticized his fellow NBA owner.
I was referring specifically to the documentary and admittedly posted before I watched E10 last night. Should have kept my mouth shut until I finished!
I don't share Jordan's viewpoint that each player would have taken a one year deal to go for seven, however. Unless Jordan was willing to take a significant pay cut.
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I was referring specifically to the documentary and admittedly posted before I watched E10 last night. Should have kept my mouth shut until I finished!
I don't share Jordan's viewpoint that each player would have taken a one year deal to go for seven, however. Unless Jordan was willing to take a significant pay cut.
He didn't mention them all, but he did mention a few. He said Pippen would have been the most difficult one but he liked to think that if he and Phil signed on, Scottie would have too. I have my doubts. Kerr? We'll never know but I tend to agree with you that he might not have, especially if San Antonio made its huge offer before he re-signed with the Bulls. Longley? Probably not but who knows. Rodman already had signed a series of 1-year contracts; it isn't outrageous to think Rodman would have accepted another.
So you'd have Michael, Kukoc, Rodman, Harper, Wennington, Caffey; maybe (but probably not) Pippen; maybe Kerr; and several of the kind of role players that Krause had proven to be very good at signing. All coached by arguably the best coach in the history of North American team sports.
Why would Jordan have had to take less money? Jordan made Reinsdorf richer than rich. I don't fault Reinsdorf for it, but he got away with paying players relative peanuts for years, and got rewarded with both championships and huge profits. All it would have taken was for him to reach into his vast wealth - wealth largely created for him by Jordan - and pony up.
We'll never know, because Reinsdorf and Krause didn't even try to keep a great team together.
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https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29195428/horace-grant-says-michael-jordan-lied-last-dance-calls-snitch?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true
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https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29195428/horace-grant-says-michael-jordan-lied-last-dance-calls-snitch?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true
It was pretty common knowledge in Chicago media circles that Horace was one of the main sources for Sam's book. Perdue and Hodges also supposedly were sources, as was Reinsdorf.
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/2466724/eric-bischoff-had-dennis-rodman-purposely-provoke-karl-malone-by-slapping-his-ass-during-the-1998-finals-to-promote-their-wcw-match
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It was pretty common knowledge in Chicago media circles that Horace was one of the main sources for Sam's book. Perdue and Hodges also supposedly were sources, as was Reinsdorf.
Grant is lying then? Or are you suggesting the author shared source information with journalists in Chicago media circles, which as a journalist he should not have done.
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Grant is lying then? Or are you suggesting the author shared source information with journalists in Chicago media circles, which as a journalist he should not have done.
Well either Grant is lying or MJ is lying.
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Overall it was ok. If you lived in the city during any of the run most of this was repeat news or confirmed rumors. If you weren't part of the geography of it all or younger, it came off as newly discovered info. Michael comes off as the pretty boy he is and most do not deny it. He just was. The question some will ask is whether the team won because of his attitude or in spite of it. There were guys that got worn down by it psychologically and emotionally. NY Times called his actions toxic. Some thrived in it. Phil was the right coach to mesh the personalities.
I often wonder if the '90s Bulls happened in the last 10 years with social media would the outcome be the same? There were constant rumors back then of pissed players, but they didn't have an outlet like Twitter or Instagram to say anything. Today that stuff comes out quite often. Would it have changed Michael's approach? Would he have given no care? The swirl that is created with team chemistry more out in the open? Would it have meant an earlier end to the dynasty or have no impact at all?
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Overall it was ok. If you lived in the city during any of the run most of this was repeat news or confirmed rumors. If you weren't part of the geography of it all or younger, it came off as newly discovered info. Michael comes off as the pretty boy he is and most do not deny it. He just was. The question some will ask is whether the team won because of his attitude or in spite of it. There were guys that got worn down by it psychologically and emotionally. NY Times called his actions toxic. Some thrived in it. Phil was the right coach to mesh the personalities.
I often wonder if the '90s Bulls happened in the last 10 years with social media would the outcome be the same? There were constant rumors back then of pissed players, but they didn't have an outlet like Twitter or Instagram to say anything. Today that stuff comes out quite often. Would it have changed Michael's approach? Would he have given no care? The swirl that is created with team chemistry more out in the open? Would it have meant an earlier end to the dynasty or have no impact at all?
I think the Pippen situation would have been very different if it happened now. Obviously, contracts are structured much differently, but feel like he would have forced a trade. Seems like it’s much easier to get that done now than back then.
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Grant is lying then? Or are you suggesting the author shared source information with journalists in Chicago media circles, which as a journalist he should not have done.
I'd say Grant is feeling burned and is probably not fessing up as much as he should be. Jordan didn't like Grant, and made a too-broad accusation in the series. As I said, Grant wasn't anywhere near the only source. So were either or both "lying"? Depends on how you want to frame it.
Sam Smith never told me anything, and I doubt he ever told others who his sources were, either. Journalists are paid to notice things. So when Sam sits down with Grant for an hour at the end of a practice, or the two are seen casually chatting all the time, and you pair that with the knowledge that Michael and Horace disliked each other ... even a journalist can put 2+2 together.
Overall it was ok. If you lived in the city during any of the run most of this was repeat news or confirmed rumors. If you weren't part of the geography of it all or younger, it came off as newly discovered info. Michael comes off as the pretty boy he is and most do not deny it. He just was. The question some will ask is whether the team won because of his attitude or in spite of it. There were guys that got worn down by it psychologically and emotionally. NY Times called his actions toxic. Some thrived in it. Phil was the right coach to mesh the personalities.
I often wonder if the '90s Bulls happened in the last 10 years with social media would the outcome be the same? There were constant rumors back then of pissed players, but they didn't have an outlet like Twitter or Instagram to say anything. Today that stuff comes out quite often. Would it have changed Michael's approach? Would he have given no care? The swirl that is created with team chemistry more out in the open? Would it have meant an earlier end to the dynasty or have no impact at all?
I lived it. It was a huge part of my life. And I found the series to be fascinating. So don't generalize.
As for the hypothetical questions you ask in your second paragraph ... we'll never know.
The Bulls still would have had the best player ever, the best sidekick in the league, the best rebounder in the league, perhaps the best coach ever, and several very good role players. So I'm thinking they would have still been pretty good.
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Overall it was ok. If you lived in the city during any of the run most of this was repeat news or confirmed rumors. If you weren't part of the geography of it all or younger, it came off as newly discovered info. Michael comes off as the pretty boy he is and most do not deny it. He just was. The question some will ask is whether the team won because of his attitude or in spite of it. There were guys that got worn down by it psychologically and emotionally. NY Times called his actions toxic. Some thrived in it. Phil was the right coach to mesh the personalities.
I often wonder if the '90s Bulls happened in the last 10 years with social media would the outcome be the same? There were constant rumors back then of pissed players, but they didn't have an outlet like Twitter or Instagram to say anything. Today that stuff comes out quite often. Would it have changed Michael's approach? Would he have given no care? The swirl that is created with team chemistry more out in the open? Would it have meant an earlier end to the dynasty or have no impact at all?
I can say with 100% certainty that the Bulls were not winning titles in spite of Michael Jordan. And if he caused toxicity in the organization, I can only hope the Brewers, Bucks, Packers, and Marquette can have the type of toxic culture that brings 6 titles in 8 years, the only 2 years without a title being when the best player took off all or most of the season.