Todd Mayo is no longer with Marquette!

[BM1090]

Well...Vander had more turnovers than assists, which last time I checked is actually less than mediocre. He was also awful in our final two NCAA games and was actually pretty terrible against Davidson as well (but look 14 points!!!).

His Game against Butler was, by far, the best game of his career and props to him for that.

What are you guys trying to sell? He wasn't a bust. He was pretty much OK.

So our best player on an elite 8 team was just "okay"? And that same guy played in 5 NBA games at age 21.

[Lennys Tap]

Apparently the genius switch can be turned off, despite that mantra that it cannot.

Still have trouble detecting sarcasm without teal, I see. The point was that Vander was anything but mediocre. Too many dimwits around here.

[MU82]

But, his junior season was really nothing better than what Todd Mayo authored last year...hard as it is for some of Vander's biggest supporters here to acknowledge, even though the stats bear it out.

Yet another example of over-reliance on stats, IMHO.

One reason that team went to the Elite 8 is because not only were the individual parts pretty darn good, but the sum of the parts was even better. They just meshed well, with each player fitting a role and helping buoy the others. So while one could look at Junior's stats and go, "meh," those who actually watched the games know how important he was to the team's success. While Jamil disappeared at times, there was enough support around him to counteract those occasions; meanwhile, when he excelled, it lifted us greatly. And so on down the lineup.

Vander was the most consistent, most valuable contributor, and he capped it by his clutch performances against  St. John's, Davidson and Butler.

I can't believe we're still having this discussion. Again.

But I guess it beats Dawson vs. You Know Who, Part 842!

[mu03eng]

hard as it is for some of Vander's biggest supporters here to acknowledge, even though the stats bear it out.

Not intending to start a flame war here, but you can't have it both ways Ners.  Either you depend on stats to bolster your arguments or you don't....don't use them when they are convenient for your purposes.

Besides, even statistically Blue was better than Mayo by a fair margin, especially if you look at the advanced stats that take into account usage rate and defense.

Bottom line, Blue was the best player on an Elite Eight team.  Todd Mayo was the best player(arguably) on a team that didn't make any post season tournament.  The only major difference between those two teams?  Vander Blue wasn't on last years team.

[GGGG]

If you poll people who know basketball, and ask them "Who had the better year?  2012-13 Vander Blue or 2013-14 Todd Mayo?"

Blue would win in a landslide.  It wouldn't be close.

[Lennys Tap]

Sounds an awful lot like the Chicos of the last 6 years...

But, Buzz did do a very good job his first 5 years at MU.  Best in my view since Al.  Too bad he had to lose himself along the way and have his ego spiral out of control.  Not entirely uncommon in the profession, nor unique to Buzz.  But, he wore out his welcome.  NO reason MU would let a coach basically walk, if they felt he was truly worth keeping.  He became higher maintenance and more of a diva than he was worth.  In some ways, not a whole lot different than Crean, but at least it took Crean 9 years to turn into a douche.

Same goes for you as Chico. You're too dim to see obvious sarcasm. Please stop writing the same posts over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

Heard it through the grapevine that you (ironically under the nom de guerre "Buzz Crush") are dominating the Scout Board and making that forum unreadable too. You insult me by comparing me to Chico. LOL. Look in the mirror.

[willie warrior]

Funny how this board is being taken over by two or three people who do not tolerate any other opinion. It is obvious that Sultan and Lenny are the same person or twins. He believes that his/ their opinions are the only ones that matter. Both are condescending and arrogant. He/they must be one and the same. I guess Lenny went to MU but acts like a ND fan. And now will come the bully tactic from Sultan telling me to grow a pair Incidentally, Sultan, I did grow a pair during 20 months in 68-70 in places like Quang Tri province, north of Danang and other locales in I corps.

So, please try to tolerate others, even though we all know it is difficult when we are so unworthy.

[GGGG]

Thank you for your service willie.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Funny how this board is being taken over by two or three people who do not tolerate any other opinion. It is obvious that Sultan and Lenny are the same person or twins. He believes that his/ their opinions are the only ones that matter. Both are condescending and arrogant.
So, please try to tolerate others, even though we all know it is difficult when we are so unworthy.

Can you please point out exactly where Sultan and Lenny said or inferred that they don't tolerate other's opinions and their's are the only ones that matter? Cause I just saw two people offering a counter opinion to someone else's opinion (and using facts to back it up in Sultan's case). In fact, it seems like the only one trying to shut down an opinion is you. And before you criticize me for falling in line with the "King of the Slurpers" I also think that Ners, PRN, and others were merely offering their opinions as well (and backing it up with facts in PRN's case).

Thank you in advance for your help clarifying this situation for me.

Sincerely,
First General of the Slurpers

[ChicosBailBonds]

Still have trouble detecting sarcasm without teal, I see. The point was that Vander was anything but mediocre. Too many dimwits around here.

Detected it just fine.  I was being sarcastic as well, by trying to turn the saying about not being able to 'turn turn off the genius switch' around a bit....since Buzz was actually called a genius on this board on more than a few occasions, not necessarily by you.



I wasn't weighing in on the Vander debate, but I get your point.  In my opinion, he was below average his freshman year and incredibly immature off the court for reasons documented and undocumented here.  Average his sophomore year, very good his junior (just lacked some consistency).  I have no doubt in my mind if he stayed for his senior year he would have been drafted and stuck with a NBA team.  School wasn't for him, he listened to the wrong whisperers, etc.  Is what it is.  

Sorry if you think I'm a dimwit, Sultan thinks my wife and I are liars.  Happy Friday

[ChicosBailBonds]

Funny how this board is being taken over by two or three people who do not tolerate any other opinion. It is obvious that Sultan and Lenny are the same person or twins. He believes that his/ their opinions are the only ones that matter. Both are condescending and arrogant. He/they must be one and the same. I guess Lenny went to MU but acts like a ND fan. And now will come the bully tactic from Sultan telling me to grow a pair Incidentally, Sultan, I did grow a pair during 20 months in 68-70 in places like Quang Tri province, north of Danang and other locales in I corps.

So, please try to tolerate others, even though we all know it is difficult when we are so unworthy.

Thank you for your service.

You may want to provide photographic evidence of your service, maybe get it notarized or you may be called a liar here.  Just trying to help, we're a little short here these days on MU Scoop in believing others.  OH, and make sure your wife isn't the one backing your claim of service....she don't count.

[Lennys Tap]

Funny how this board is being taken over by two or three people who do not tolerate any other opinion. It is obvious that Sultan and Lenny are the same person or twins. He believes that his/ their opinions are the only ones that matter. Both are condescending and arrogant. He/they must be one and the same. I guess Lenny went to MU but acts like a ND fan. And now will come the bully tactic from Sultan telling me to grow a pair Incidentally, Sultan, I did grow a pair during 20 months in 68-70 in places like Quang Tri province, north of Danang and other locales in I corps.

So, please try to tolerate others, even though we all know it is difficult when we are so unworthy.

Ners has 5500+ posts here over a relatively short time, so if anybody is "taking over this board" you might have the wrong guys. Some of his opinions (more PT for Burton, Derrick was a sub par starting point guard, Jake was a sub par starting 2 guard, etc.,) I agree with. Others (Dawson should have played 30 minutes) I disagree with but tolerate Still others ("Buzz was a genius who - because of his ego, thanks Dr Laura - suddenly went nuts and started throwing games" or "Anyone who disagrees with me about Derrick/Dawson's minutes (including Buzz) is basketball brain dead") I don't tolerate - because on their face they don't make sense.

I know you get very sensitive about people calling you names, but you are just as guilty (calling people condescending and arrogant is, after all, name calling). I'm not "intolerant" about you calling Buzz a BSer and the Lonesome Cowboy. I'm not intolerant of you mocking Buzz allegedly calling Derrick a game changer once. I disagree, because I think you take things out of context. But where I really disagree is you running it into the ground with constant repetition.  

On another note, I sincerely salute your service. The disrespect that many citizens showed during your time in Viet Nam AND upon your return home was abominable. You (and all who served) deserved better.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

So our best player on an elite 8 team was just "okay"? And that same guy played in 5 NBA games at age 21.

That's exactly what I'm saying, although it's not cut and dried that he was our best player. Several players on that team stood out at different parts of the season.

[Lennys Tap]

That's exactly what I'm saying, although it's not cut and dried that he was our best player. Several players on that team stood out at different parts of the season.

Even if he wasn't clearly our best player (I think he was), it's pretty hard to win the BEast and go to the Elite 8 with a few guys who are "OK' and the rest worse than that.

[4everwarriors]

How many Scoopers are we up to now on the Fook Yourself Meter?

[Lennys Tap]

How many Scoopers are we up to now on the Fook Yourself Meter?

17-15 + dog days of August = a Fook Yourself Meter that's through the roof.

[Lennys Tap]

Detected it just fine.  I was being sarcastic as well, by trying to turn the saying about not being able to 'turn turn off the genius switch' around a bit....since Buzz was actually called a genius on this board on more than a few occasions, not necessarily by you.



I wasn't weighing in on the Vander debate, but I get your point.  In my opinion, he was below average his freshman year and incredibly immature off the court for reasons documented and undocumented here.  Average his sophomore year, very good his junior (just lacked some consistency).  I have no doubt in my mind if he stayed for his senior year he would have been drafted and stuck with a NBA team.  School wasn't for him, he listened to the wrong whisperers, etc.  Is what it is.  

Sorry if you think I'm a dimwit, Sultan thinks my wife and I are liars.  Happy Friday

Sorry for missing the sarcasm - didn't know about the Letterman/genius thing. My turn to be the dimwit.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Even if he wasn't clearly our best player (I think he was), it's pretty hard to win the BEast and go to the Elite 8 with a few guys who are "OK' and the rest worse than that.

I'm not real clear on the correlation between going to the Elite 8 and Vander's career as a whole (or even his junior year). I don't think anybody would argue that Butler, Crowder and DJO were all better players than Blue, yet none went to the Elite 8 or won a Big East title. Blue was pretty much OK (certainly not a bust). Again, what are you guys arguing? That he was a great player because he may or may not have been the best player on an Elite 8 team?

I would be interested in Henry Sugar's take on Vander in terms of his list of MU players. In my mind, Davante had a much better career than Vander Blue. Vander made two heroic shots and had a phenomenal game against Butler, but in the last 10 years 2004-2014 I'm not sure he makes a list of our top 10 players. Just my opinion.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm not real clear on the correlation between going to the Elite 8 and Vander's career as a whole (or even his junior year). I don't think anybody would argue that Butler, Crowder and DJO were all better players than Blue, yet none went to the Elite 8 or won a Big East title. Blue was pretty much OK (certainly not a bust). Again, what are you guys arguing? That he was a great player because he may or may not have been the best player on an Elite 8 team?

I would be interested in Henry Sugar's take on Vander in terms of his list of MU players. In my mind, Davante had a much better career than Vander Blue. Vander made two heroic shots and had a phenomenal game against Butler, but in the last 10 years 2004-2014 I'm not sure he makes a list of our top 10 players. Just my opinion.

I would agree that Crowder and Butler were better as seniors than Blue was as a junior. A junior to junior comparison is close. And Jae and Jimmy weren't your average or mediocre guys. My point is, that by his junior year at least, neither was Vander. He made big plays on offense and defense and relished rather than ran from the big moments. A leader. We went from Big East champs/Elite 8 to the sewer with our entire front court returning. Mayo was fine as Lockett's replacement. Derrick was a downtick from Junior, but one that the intact frontline should have offset. Vander to Jake? that's where we fell off the mountain.

[NersEllenson]

Same goes for you as Chico. You're too dim to see obvious sarcasm. Please stop writing the same posts over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

Heard it through the grapevine that you (ironically under the nom de guerre "Buzz Crush") are dominating the Scout Board and making that forum unreadable too. You insult me by comparing me to Chico. LOL. Look in the mirror.

LOL - When every one of your posts basically worships Buzz ad naseum...and takes up from him at every turn - sorry the sarcasm detector wasn't very good when you mentioned must have been some genius coaching. 

Still looking forward to some critical comments by on Buzz.  Though doubt it will happen, other than a minor criticism much like how Chico's makes an occasional comment like Crean was a douche - that doesn't absolve the fact that 98% of the guys post slurp his balls - just as you do Buzz.

You are to Buzz what Chicos is to Crean.  Sorry you can't see it...but to any others here it is quite obvious your Buzz Crush (haha) is going every bit as strong as Chicos Crean Crush. 

Look in the mirror Lenny.  Have a nice weekend!

[NersEllenson]

Ners has 5500+ posts here over a relatively short time, so if anybody is "taking over this board" you might have the wrong guys. Some of his opinions (more PT for Burton, Derrick was a sub par starting point guard, Jake was a sub par starting 2 guard, etc.,) I agree with. Others (Dawson should have played 30 minutes) I disagree with but tolerate Still others ("Buzz was a genius who - because of his ego, thanks Dr Laura - suddenly went nuts and started throwing games" or "Anyone who disagrees with me about Derrick/Dawson's minutes (including Buzz) is basketball brain dead") I don't tolerate - because on their face they don't make sense.

I know you get very sensitive about people calling you names, but you are just as guilty (calling people condescending and arrogant is, after all, name calling). I'm not "intolerant" about you calling Buzz a BSer and the Lonesome Cowboy. I'm not intolerant of you mocking Buzz allegedly calling Derrick a game changer once. I disagree, because I think you take things out of context. But where I really disagree is you running it into the ground with constant repetition.  

On another note, I sincerely salute your service. The disrespect that many citizens showed during your time in Viet Nam AND upon your return home was abominable. You (and all who served) deserved better.

Answer the question Lenny:  Did it make 1 OUNCE of sense that in the last game of the season, in a must win game, that Buzz benched Burton for the 6:30 of the last 7:00 minutes of that game.  A game in which Burton scored 23 points in the first 23 minutes of the 24 he was played, on 64% shooting from the field?

There were a lot of very marginal and questionable coaching decisions that really do point toward was Buzz truly trying to win games.  Many outside the Dawson Derrick debate.  Mayo, Gardner and Burton's usage compared to Jake, Otule and Juan.  You really believe that starting lineup Buzz played was our best lineup????  What coach doesn't start his best players???

[GGGG]

What coach doesn't start his best players???

2012-13 Buzz Williams - started Juan Anderson over Jamil Wilson
2010-11 Buzz Williams - started Erik Williams over Jae Crowder

And then there is the whole Chris Otule over Davante Gardner thing.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I'm not real clear on the correlation between going to the Elite 8 and Vander's career as a whole (or even his junior year). I don't think anybody would argue that Butler, Crowder and DJO were all better players than Blue, yet none went to the Elite 8 or won a Big East title. Blue was pretty much OK (certainly not a bust). Again, what are you guys arguing? That he was a great player because he may or may not have been the best player on an Elite 8 team?

I would be interested in Henry Sugar's take on Vander in terms of his list of MU players. In my mind, Davante had a much better career than Vander Blue. Vander made two heroic shots and had a phenomenal game against Butler, but in the last 10 years 2004-2014 I'm not sure he makes a list of our top 10 players. Just my opinion.

I liked DJO slightly better (a more entertaining player), but if you click on Blue's name in kenpom, the 2nd most similar player to his junior year in the entirety of kenpom's database just so happens to be DJO's junior year.

Just introducing one data point to the discussion. That is all.

Edited to add:

The trajectory of Blue's ORtg: 89.1, 95.6, 104.2

Trajectory of DJO's: N/A, 107.0, 106.8, 109.1

Not out of bounds to think that Blue could have put up the same or better senior year as DJO had he stayed.

[ChicosBailBonds]

LOL - When every one of your posts basically worships Buzz ad naseum...and takes up from him at every turn - sorry the sarcasm detector wasn't very good when you mentioned must have been some genius coaching. 

Still looking forward to some critical comments by on Buzz.  Though doubt it will happen, other than a minor criticism much like how Chico's makes an occasional comment like Crean was a douche - that doesn't absolve the fact that 98% of the guys post slurp his balls - just as you do Buzz.

You are to Buzz what Chicos is to Crean.  Sorry you can't see it...but to any others here it is quite obvious your Buzz Crush (haha) is going every bit as strong as Chicos Crean Crush. 

Look in the mirror Lenny.  Have a nice weekend!

Slurps his balls?  Nah, I just correct the falsehoods, don't think it is all that cool to rip on someone's wife, or whether he kisses his son, etc, nor do I think his starting point at MU was anything like that of Buzz's (facilities, players, conference, etc).  I'm scared to think where MU would be without the players, Final Four, Big East, etc that we had during his time at MU. 

I'll bet I've said Crean is a douche, jerk, prick, dick, ego driven maniac, difficult to work for, etc more than 300 times if not many more.  A quick search just on a few of those combinations turns up more than 150 results from me. I said it plenty of times, whether you acknowledge it is out of my control.  Not sure how one can slurp someone's balls and also believe he is a douche, prick, jerk, etc.  But hey, whatever floats your boat.

[Lennys Tap]

What coach doesn't start his best players???

Tons of them. Ever heard of Red Auerbach? He had a Hall of Famer  named John Havlicek coming off the bench for years.

And let's not forget Al McGuire. Lots of MU fans were going apecrap in 1977 when he started Bill Neary (at least as offensively challenged as Derrick) over Bernard Toone, a freshman more gifted than Burton, let alone John Dawson. Lots of dimwits were all over Al, though nobody that I recall accused him of throwing games. Had you been around, I have no doubt you would have led the lynch mob.