COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")

[wadesworld]

We could have a president who could potentially lose it at some point during his term or we could continue with a president who has never had it.

[Johnny B]

See, you have NO response for it, do you??...Dr Fauci(who everyone says is an Expert and they listen to him) says "This is nothing for the US to worry about". How come?? People don't like the agenda destroyed, that's why.

Besides, you're just a youngin yet Johhny...You have a lot to learn about stuff yet, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Debating hoops with u is already tiring enough. Aint gettin in a debate with you about the orange man 🥳

[muguru]

He says the average American doesn't need to be afraid of this, right then, but that we need to be concerned and prepare, which was what the CDC was doing.

That was before the WHO confirmed person-to-person spread, they confirmed it that same day as the interview (Jan. 21st).

Compare that to the commander in chief, who on Feb. 26th said that within a couple days there would be zero cases in the US. And on March 4th said it was "very safe to fly".

Even now, we have massive failures out of the Oval Office. There is chaos, and it is due to a lack of leadership, and a lack of leadership owning their mistakes. A good start would be a smidgeon of honesty.

I ask you this in all honesty because you seem like a reasonable guy, and since no one has ever answered this, when I have asked this before...were you honestly expecting ZERO deaths from this?? That's how some people act, no doubt. Are we 100% certain that a quicker response would have "saved lives"?? What if those people infected would have died anyway?? I just have a hard time with the outrage over this when I never see people outraged this much over all the people that die from the flu every year, or suicide, or any other reason. Now, death matters more and people are outraged?? That confuses me.

[muguru]

Debating hoops with u is already tiring enough. Aint gettin in a debate with you about the orange man 🥳

Cuz you'll lose, just like in hoops 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I ask you this in all honesty because you seem like a reasonable guy, and since no one has ever answered this, when I have asked this before...were you honestly expecting ZERO deaths from this?? That's how some people act, no doubt. Are we 100% certain that a quicker response would have "saved lives"?? What if those people infected would have died anyway?? I just have a hard time with the outrage over this when I never see people outraged this much over all the people that die from the flu every year, or suicide, or any other reason. Now, death matters more and people are outraged?? That confuses me.

Heres what could have made a difference

**a coordinated testing plan with widespread testing available

**ramp up of production of PPE and ventilators.

**a coordinated and timed nationwide stay at home plan

**a better coordinated economic plan

Instead the administration downplayed the problem for too long and now it’s all catch up. And even now, we do not have coordinated stay at home which is going to make this last longer.

And you are STILL comparing this to the flu?  Wake the f**k up.

[pbiflyer]

I like covfefe hamberders.

[forgetful]

I ask you this in all honesty because you seem like a reasonable guy, and since no one has ever answered this, when I have asked this before...were you honestly expecting ZERO deaths from this?? That's how some people act, no doubt. Are we 100% certain that a quicker response would have "saved lives"?? What if those people infected would have died anyway?? I just have a hard time with the outrage over this when I never see people outraged this much over all the people that die from the flu every year, or suicide, or any other reason. Now, death matters more and people are outraged?? That confuses me.

You can go back to the beginning of this thread. I always thought there would be deaths. Especially if we didn't act fast. I was optimistic initially that we could still get ahead of this, I honestly didn't believe we could have been failing so terribly on testing. I also didn't fully appreciate the delay between initial infection and hospitalization (often 2-4 weeks), but I was expecting a lot of deaths.

And yes, we are 100% certain that a quicker response would have saved lives. If we had adequate tests right away, we could have done widespread testing and contact tracing of everyone returning from possible infection spots overseas. And once there was domestic spread continued such testing like was done in Germany.

I don't think we could have completely stopped spread, because there is a human element to this, but we failed in an epic manner. Back on Feb. 1st, I met with colleagues that do epidemiologically models (their's has been very accurate), they spelled out then two scenarios, one with the testing we should have done, the other with what was going on. They also said what we should do to limit the spread (social distancing). The number of lives it cost is huge.

Equally as important, is the economic cost. If we had adequate testing and protocols in place from the beginning, we may not have had to shut down everything, or at least done so on a more limited schedule. How much we could have stopped the shut down, depends on if we shut down travel with Europe earlier, instead of saying "air travel is very safe".

This is not the flu. New Orleans had as many people die from COVID in 6-days, as died the entire 2018 flu season. That is with shutting everything done, and sheltering-in-place. Very likely some of us on here will either lose loved ones, or possibly lose our own lives to this. A lot of those lives could have been saved. And sadly, we are still not getting the leadership we need.

To be fair though, I liken this situation to being dealt a bad poker hand. You're almost certainly going to lose, but how much you lose depends how we play the hand. Right now, we've tried to bluff our way to a victory. COVID was never going to fold. So now the question moving forward is to we keep pushing our money into the pot and possibly go all in (open everything back up), or do we cut our loses and get out while we can (shut things down for 2-3 months). We aren't getting the money (mistakes) we put in already back, the focus needs to be on making sure we don't keep making mistakes.

[jesmu84]

A few questions for discussion:

1. Why should the testing/treatment of Corona be free, but other health problems (especially life-threatening such as cancer) shouldn't be free?

2. If we can afford a $4.5 trillion bailout of corporations, can't we afford medicare for all or other proposed expensive policies?

3. If you believe the government response to this pandemic has been an overreach, did you also believe the government response to 9/11 was an overreach?

[GooooMarquette]

Heres what could have made a difference

**a coordinated testing plan with widespread testing available

**ramp up of production of PPE and ventilators.

**a coordinated and timed nationwide stay at home plan

**a better coordinated economic plan

Instead the administration downplayed the problem for too long and now it’s all catch up. And even now, we do not have coordinated stay at home which is going to make this last longer.

And you are STILL comparing this to the flu?  Wake the f**k up.

Bingo.

See South Korea. They completely schooled Trump on how to deal with this. Zero deaths? Nope. But a hell of a lot better job of pandemic management than Trump’s. SK was acting, while Trump was telling us not to change our daily routines because “one day - it’s like a miracle - it will disappear.”

And for the long delay between that and his long-belated admission that this really IS a big deal, he will forever shoulder the blame.

[GooooMarquette]

A few questions for discussion:

1. Why should the testing/treatment of Corona be free, but other health problems (especially life-threatening such as cancer) shouldn't be free?

2. If we can afford a $4.5 trillion bailout of corporations, can't we afford medicare for all or other proposed expensive policies?

3. If you believe the government response to this pandemic has been an overreach, did you also believe the government response to 9/11 was an overreach?

A few thoughts:

1. COVID-19 is unique, because prompt testing of one person might prevent another hundred (or more) from getting sick. The combination of transmissibility and severity is like nothing we have seen in our lifetimes. I can see arguments for free testing for other conditions, but none as compelling as this.

2. We probably can’t afford both...but I would prefer that we spend the money on healthcare as opposed to corporate welfare. The question is whether our legislators and POTUS have the political will to make big donors and lobbyists unhappy. I won’t hold my breath.

3. I don’t think the government is overreacting to COVID-19; I think it should have acted sooner and in a more coordinated and scientifically based manner.

[muguru]

Heres what could have made a difference

**a coordinated testing plan with widespread testing available

**ramp up of production of PPE and ventilators.

**a coordinated and timed nationwide stay at home plan

**a better coordinated economic plan

Instead the administration downplayed the problem for too long and now it’s all catch up. And even now, we do not have coordinated stay at home which is going to make this last longer.

And you are STILL comparing this to the flu?  Wake the f**k up.

I am NOT comparing it to the flu...I asked a question and as you always do, when you have no way out and have been beaten, you do a "run around" and "dodge". People are OUTRAGED about people dying from Covid-19, how come there isn't the same kind of outrage when people die from other ways?? No one screams then and acts all disturbed and angry like they are now.

Also, the second part of my question was...how do we know for CERTAIN more lives would have been saved?? That's an assumption isn't it?? Those people could have died anyway, right??

[pbiflyer]

A few questions for discussion:

1. Why should the testing/treatment of Corona be free, but other health problems (especially life-threatening such as cancer) shouldn't be free?

2. If we can afford a $4.5 trillion bailout of corporations, can't we afford medicare for all or other proposed expensive policies?

3. If you believe the government response to this pandemic has been an overreach, did you also believe the government response to 9/11 was an overreach?

Citizens who lost health coverage in past 2 weeks due to economic collapse:

USA 3,500,000
Australia 0
Belgium 0
Canada 0
Chile 0
Denmark 0
Finland 0
France 0
Germany 0
Greece 0
Hungary 0
Italy 0
Japan 0
New Zealand 0
Norway 0
Portugal 0
S Korea 0
Spain 0
Sweden 0
Turkey 0
UK 0

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

A piece focusing on what it’s like in the ICU

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/nyregion/coronavirus-hospital-brooklyn.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I am NOT comparing it to the flu...I asked a question and as you always do, when you have no way out and have been beaten, you do a "run around" and "dodge". People are OUTRAGED about people dying from Covid-19, how come there isn't the same kind of outrage when people die from other ways?? No one screams then and acts all disturbed and angry like they are now.

Because controlling the spread of the virus can save lives.  Because getting control of the virus is essential to getting the economy running again.  Because getting control of the virus will allow our health care system and workers to not collapse. 

Guru this is a global test.  So far we are doing average on the health response.  Still to be seen how we stuck up against the developed world in final form.  This isn’t going away. 

[injuryBug]

Because controlling the spread of the virus can save lives.  Because getting control of the virus is essential to getting the economy running again.  Because getting control of the virus will allow our health care system and workers to not collapse. 

Guru this is a global test.  So far we are doing average on the health response.  Still to be seen how we stuck up against the developed world in final form.  This isn’t going away.

I get guru's points.  The question i have had all along is if shut everything down for 2-3 months what happens when we come back and open things up.  Is it really better?  Are the deaths just spread out over a longer period of time so it appears better.  China is almost 6 months into this and do they have a drug out there to lesson the impact once you have it.  All I hear is about items that may lesson the impact or get people better but nothing concrete.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I get guru's points.  The question i have had all along is if shut everything down for 2-3 months what happens when we come back and open things up.  Is it really better?  Are the deaths just spread out over a longer period of time so it appears better.  China is almost 6 months into this and do they have a drug out there to lesson the impact once you have it.  All I hear is about items that may lesson the impact or get people better but nothing concrete.

The fatality rate would be much higher if we all get this at once because essentially no one gets the hospital bed.  Time allows more care and buys time for therapeutic treatment and vaccine.  Also if we ever get control of this thing you can test and contact trace outbreaks.  Finally I am convinced normal is not coming until there is a vaccine.  There are multiple countries that are seeing cases pop back up like Singapore and Hong Kong. 

So not the same deaths.  I can tell you that if this is uncontrolled the economy will be hit hard regardless.  Imagine a whole plant getting sick. 

Also we need a system for after we get control.  Antibody tests to clear people officially.  Intrusive contact tracing and tracking on cell phone.  Maybe other things.  I think if we get serious about this and getting the economy going, we will need to give up some civil liberties for a period of time.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I am NOT comparing it to the flu...I asked a question and as you always do, when you have no way out and have been beaten, you do a "run around" and "dodge". People are OUTRAGED about people dying from Covid-19, how come there isn't the same kind of outrage when people die from other ways?? No one screams then and acts all disturbed and angry like they are now.

Also, the second part of my question was...how do we know for CERTAIN more lives would have been saved?? That's an assumption isn't it?? Those people could have died anyway, right??

If you believe the modeling done by epidemiologists, yes. An earlier coordinated response would have saved lives.

[injuryBug]

The fatality rate would be much higher if we all get this at once because essentially no one gets the hospital bed.  Time allows more care and buys time for therapeutic treatment and vaccine.  Also if we ever get control of this thing you can test and contact trace outbreaks.  Finally I am convinced normal is not coming until there is a vaccine. There are multiple countries that are seeing cases pop back up like Singapore and Hong Kong. 

So not the same deaths.  I can tell you that if this is uncontrolled the economy will be hit hard regardless.  Imagine a whole plant getting sick. 

Also we need a system for after we get control.  Antibody tests to clear people officially.  Intrusive contact tracing and tracking on cell phone.  Maybe other things.  I think if we get serious about this and getting the economy going, we will need to give up some civil liberties for a period of time.

That is what scares me.  normal not coming until a year from now would be insane!!
It would seem to be easier to put restraints on those that or more at risk.  I know everyone is at risk but if you take say anyone over 60 and those with underlying conditions that have had shown to give more problems and have them stay at home.  This would seem lesson the burden on the health care systems and also keep the country moving

 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

That is what scares me.  normal not coming until a year from now would be insane!!
It would seem to be easier to put restraints on those that or more at risk.  I know everyone is at risk but if you take say anyone over 60 and those with underlying conditions that have had shown to give more problems and have them stay at home.  This would seem lesson the burden on the health care systems and also keep the country moving

I think we are saying the same thing in that it’s not normal to have to lock up 60 year olds or not seeing your parents.  That too will impact the economy.  They are the ones with all the money to spend!   Odd times.

[forgetful]

The fatality rate would be much higher if we all get this at once because essentially no one gets the hospital bed.  Time allows more care and buys time for therapeutic treatment and vaccine.  Also if we ever get control of this thing you can test and contact trace outbreaks.  Finally I am convinced normal is not coming until there is a vaccine.  There are multiple countries that are seeing cases pop back up like Singapore and Hong Kong. 

I agree that we won't be fully back to normal for a year+ as we wait for a vaccine. Our chance to make it less than that has now past.

Based on some potential antibody based therapies, I'm optimistic we might be able to get to some semblance of normal by mid to late fall. The problem with this is, people would still be getting sick and some dying. We would just have a potential treatment to lessen the impact enough to possibly warrant opening a lot of things back up.

Let's also all hope that things do indeed calm down some in summer. Otherwise this is going to be a long and catastrophic process (more catastrophic than it already is).

[jesmu84]

When did we - as a nation - stop listening to experts within their respective fields? And why?

[wadesworld]

When did we - as a nation - stop listening to experts within their respective fields? And why?

About 3.5 years ago.

[GooooMarquette]

New York Gets Ventilators From China; Trump Wants More Thanks

https://apnews.com/24b8b30cbc11c43a19e7e7aff69e4044

Just the headline says a lot: people are dying, and Trump is focused on a perceived lack of praise. And before anyone screams “fake news,” note that this is a story from AP, which is widely viewed as an unbiased news source.

[Eldon]

When did we - as a nation - stop listening to experts within their respective fields? And why?

The simplistic answer is the advent of social media--quacks and charlatans now have an outlet.

The nuanced answer is that intra-discipline debates can be more widely seen, again a result of the internet. 

Expert A says X, Expert B says not X (or at least, says Y, which is interpreted through people's confirmation bias as "not X"). 

Prior to the internet, this war was waged in academic journals, etc.  But now, with a 24-news cycle having to compete with the always-running internet, expert battles are waged in public.

[Eldon]

About 3.5 years ago.

You have cause and effect reversed.