$1.16 million per year for Buzz??

[The Lens]

Crean made $375K in his first year at MU, which is remarkable considering the status of the program back in 1999, as well as the fact MU was barely paying KO $225K as far back as 1994.  I doubt Deane made much more than KO either.  So why was Crean paid more than KO and Deane without an iota of being a head coach?  POTENTIAL.  And that's what MU is paying for here with Buzz as well. 
  

Deane made over 375K in 1998-1999.

[The Lens]

Meanwhile, in other news, Rick Majerus cut four scholarship players...

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/othersports/story/0B79F8C4042B15418625742900113EB2?OpenDocument

There's a certain Crean basher/Majerus fan around here who frequently has accused the former of running off players and questioned his ethics for it.
Wonder what he has to say about this?
[/quote]

Rick let go guys he didn't recruit and wasn't going to play.  They have the option of keeping theiy scholarship or moving on with his assistance to ANY other University.

I had ZERO problem when TC ran off Krunti.

I did take issue when transfer cost a coach an entire class.

[Cooby Snacks]

If Dick Strong wants to pay $7 million over 6 years, let him.

[Marquette84]

I did take issue when transfer cost a coach an entire class.

And I find it amazing that people still take issue five years later with the departure of players who, had they stayed, would have ensured that MU would be a much weaker team.

You would think that the facts as they played out would lead to the begrudging admission that, yes, MU was right to let those players go.  Nope--let's not let facts get in the way---there's MU bashing to be done.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I did take issue when transfer cost a coach an entire class.

And I find it amazing that people still take issue five years later with the departure of players who, had they stayed, would have ensured that MU would be a much weaker team.

You would think that the facts as they played out would lead to the begrudging admission that, yes, MU was right to let those players go.  Nope--let's not let facts get in the way---there's MU bashing to be done.

Absolutely right! Marquette is to be commended for losing an entire class of recruits.

Why didn't we all see that?

[THEGYMBAR]

Losing a recruiting class or players in program with an established coach is not a problem. Losing players and recruits with a gamble coach is borderline suicidal. Rick Majerus is not looking to build a program perse, his MO is he loves to coach. He is vagabond that would lose players at any school he was at. That is why I had Coach Ricky at about 33rd on our hit list. However, he was three spots above Buzz.

[Marquette84]

Absolutely right! Marquette is to be commended for losing an entire class of recruits.

Why didn't we all see that?

 
I really don't know.

It's only a few ignoramuses that continue to harp about the loss of players that everyone knows would have made the team worse.

[The Lens]

I did take issue when transfer cost a coach an entire class.

And I find it amazing that people still take issue five years later with the departure of players who, had they stayed, would have ensured that MU would be a much weaker team.

You would think that the facts as they played out would lead to the begrudging admission that, yes, MU was right to let those players go.  Nope--let's not let facts get in the way---there's MU bashing to be done.

Welcome back Joanie, sorry to hear your Dad lost his job.  

PS...it's Saturday night, make sure your brother has a designated driver.

[The Lens]

If Dick Strong wants to pay $7 million over 6 years, let him.

There is a lot of truth to this.  MU probably isn't paying much more than they payed Deane.

[Marquette84]

I'm a complete idiot who turns to personal insults when somebody presents me with facts. . .

I'm perfectly happy holding a basketball discussion with you, Lens.  Let's stop with the person insults, okay?

As I said, I cannot fathom why you are STILL upset that we "lost" this group:

1.  Carlton Christian, who not only played his way out of Marquette, but also out of Central Florida.  A head case who's mere presence was a disruption at MU, and apparently not even UCF was willing to put up with it.  Career goose eggs after MU.

2.  Brandon Bell--a "point guard" who turned out to be unable to either dribble or pass at a BE level.

3.  Dameon Mason--a 2G who's upside after leaving MU was legendary unless one actually looks at his performance at LSU.  Peaked his freshman year, and clearly would have struggled for minutes from day 1 behind Jerel McNeal.

4.  James Matthews:  A player who's D1 career was marked by both academic and discipline problems.  Interesting tidbit--the less Matthews played at EMU the more games EMU won.  For example, this season EMU was 3-7 in games Matthews played, 11-10 in games he missed.
 
5.  Marcus Jackson:  A big who came to MU with this class as a JUCO transfer after originally signing with Georgia.  Apparently doesn't count because he graduated thus doesn't fit with the narrative of "lost an entire class".  I'm sure you'll say "We meant GRADUATING CLASS".  Yes.  Of course.  So Matthews--the best player from the group and solid performer at MU--is easily ignored because otherwise he'd prove you wrong on facts.

I'll put aside that your basic premise is wrong--we didn't lose an enitire recruiting class--Marcus Jackson completed his eligibility at MU.

But if you'd like to weigh in on why you think MU would have been better off if we hadn't let those players go, I'd like to know your reasoning.  I don't see that they would have helped us at all, and I base that on the fact that none of them had meaningful contributions at their future schools.  A lack of participation even more striking given the benefit of an extra year of development for each of them.

[dwaderoy2004]

dude the argument is not about the quality of these players.  the point is we had no one that was recruited to come in that year make a contribution.  Fine those guys stink, are head cases, can;t dribble, etc.  THEN WHY DID WE RECRUIT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.  MJax was not recruited with those guys, so he doesn;t really count.  He was an afterthought, added ONLY BECAUSE the other gys left.  if a kid wnts to leave so be it, but we shouldn't be recruiting guys that are obvious problem kids (Matthews and Christian, maybe even Bell).  If a guy leaves because of lack of playing time, i.e., mason once the WEs, DJ and McNeal came in, then fine let em go.  But in retrospect, that class was a big zero.

[mviale]

Man - that was a bad class.  Didnt we just go to the Final four?

Crean - you lout!

[Marquette84]

dude the argument is not about the quality of these players.  the point is we had no one that was recruited to come in that year make a contribution.  Fine those guys stink, are head cases, can;t dribble, etc.  THEN WHY DID WE RECRUIT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.  MJax was not recruited with those guys, so he doesn;t really count.  He was an afterthought, added ONLY BECAUSE the other gys left.  if a kid wnts to leave so be it, but we shouldn't be recruiting guys that are obvious problem kids (Matthews and Christian, maybe even Bell).  If a guy leaves because of lack of playing time, i.e., mason once the WEs, DJ and McNeal came in, then fine let em go.  But in retrospect, that class was a big zero.

The repeated complaint has NOT been that these players were recruited in the first place.  The oft repeated complaint has been that they TRANSFERRED. as if Crean ran off a potential final-four lineup. 

If these players had obvious problems, we would not have recruited them nor would Arizona (who recruited Bell), Florida state and ODU (who recruited  Christian) and Illinois and Iowa State (who wanted Mason).   Sometimes players don't live up to expectations.  They move on, and it's better for both sides.

Crean is not being criticized for recruiting players who didn't live up to expectations--he is being criticized for letting those very players transfer!


***  MJax was not recruited with those guys, so he doesn;t really count.  He was an afterthought, added ONLY BECAUSE the other gys left

Wrong.

Jackson was recruited with those guys and signed just 10 days after Christian--none of the other players had left at the time Jackson signed.   You could have argued that Jackson wasn't signed until Wade declared for the draft, but its not as if it was a surprise that Wade would declare.

Here's the timeline, to help with your recollection:

Nov 13:  Bell, Mason JMatthews sign: 
http://gomarquette.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/111302aab.html

April 27:  Christian signs: 
http://gomarquette.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/042703aaa.html

May 7:  Jackson signs:
http://gomarquette.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/050703aab.html

December 23:  Matthews leaves
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2003-12-25-matthews-transfers_x.htm
December 23:  Barro signs
http://gomarquette.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/122303aaa.html

All five of the incoming recruits arrived on campus in the fall.  James Matthews was the first player to leave the team, but not until December.  Barro (not Jackson) was the player signed because Matthews left.

[The Lens]

SJS, why should I argue straight up, you're always right.  Besides, my Joanie comment probably made a few people laugh.

Here are facts:

We LOST an entire class (4 guys). 
We recruited an entire class of non contributors. 
Our famed 24 / 7 work ethic turned up NO recruits for the class of 2006
Every evaluation we made was wrong

Yeah we rip TC for transfers, but it's not just b/c we hate to see kids leave it's also b/c we feel our great recruiter should have been held to a higher standard.  When you lose a recruit you lose all the time he was putting in.  Traditionally you need to have juniors and seniors in leadership positions to win.  We have had a blackhole thanks to TC's famed recruiting.  When you have a coach who is so good at player development, you need to have some consistency so kids can be in the program for a few years and benefit from his great coaching.

[Marquette84]

SJS, why should I argue straight up, you're always right.  Besides, my Joanie comment probably made a few people laugh.

Here are facts:
We LOST an entire class (4 guys). 

I acutually link the press releases for you, listing the the five guys we recruited, and you can't even get THAT right!

We didn't LOSE an entire class--that ENTIRE class included Marcus Jackson!  I don't think I'm always right, but when I can name the five guys in the class, and give you the links to the damn press releases, I think that probably passes as being correct in this case.

We recruited an entire class of non contributors. 
Our famed 24 / 7 work ethic turned up NO recruits for the class of 2006
Every evaluation we made was wrong

Hmm. The class of 2006 included Chris Grimm, Joe Champan and Steve Novak.   

Okay--another mistake on your part.  You probably meant 2007.  We had NO seniors in 2007.  But we did graduate Jamil Lott and Mike Kinsella.  Again, the "NO recruits" comment is overblown.  Just because they weren't recruited as incoming freshmen in 2003 doesn't mean we had NO senior leadership.

What you meant to say is that in 2003 we recruited four incoming freshmen that didn't work out. 
 

Yeah we rip TC for transfers, but it's not just b/c we hate to see kids leave it's also b/c we feel our great recruiter should have been held to a higher standard.  When you lose a recruit you lose all the time he was putting in.  Traditionally you need to have juniors and seniors in leadership positions to win.  We have had a blackhole thanks to TC's famed recruiting.  When you have a coach who is so good at player development, you need to have some consistency so kids can be in the program for a few years and benefit from his great coaching.

The problem is that you rip Crean for both recruiting non-contributors, AND because those non-contributors transfered!   

If you don't think those players were worth recruiting, why in the world are you still upset about them LEAVING five years later?  I could see complaining about their recruitment--but I don't get why you're upset they left and were replaced.

In fact, I can see having a bigger problem with holding onto recruiting mistakes for a full four years.  I really don't think we win 10 BE games in 2006 and 11 in 2007 with Bell as our PG, James Matthews as our C, Dameon Mason as our 2G and Carlton Christian as our WF/WG.  Despite the fact that James, Wes Matthews, Ooze and Jerel were a class or two younger, I think they outperformed the guys who would have been juniors and seniors.

--If you want to argue that you think Brandon Bell as a junior/senior would have outperformed Dominic James as a Frosh/Soph, then have at it.
--If you want to argue that Carlton Christian would have outperformed Wes Mattews, then do so.
--If you believe that James Matthews is better than Ooze, explain why.
--If you think that Dameon Mason played better at LSU than Jerel McNeal did at MU, share your reasoning.

Here's my position--yeah we lost those four recruits that came in as freshmen in 2003--and it's a DAMN GOOD THING because we would have sucked had they stayed. 

In a perfect world, we would have had better recruits 2003--but we didn't.  The question is why you continue to rip on Crean because they left.  Sure sounds to me like you WANTED MU to suck, since you could blame it on Crean.  Sounds to me like you're upset that Crean went out and replaced those guys with better players and wound up with a better team and better record than he would have.  Cost you a chance to rip Crean for his losing record in the Big East.

[The Lens]

I don't consider Marcus Jackson part of the incoming freshman class.  That's why I say 4. 

I like class balance and he added to the Juniors and the 2005 graduating class.

You're right I meant 2007, my bad. 

At the end of the day, having players in the program for 3-4 years is a good thing, it's just too bad that Crean was at times such a bad evaluator that we often did not.

As for my fanship of MU, I think I'm Marquette's biggest fan, but every fan probably does.