Tim Duncan

[GGGG]

I'll repeat, you are comparing statistics across eras with different styles of play and different styles of officiating. 

In Birds era, the 3-pt shot was brand new.  They didn't grow up focusing on it as a major part of play.  Mid-range jump shots were much more prevalent.  Bird was a jump shooter, his eFG% is lower based on more 2-pt jump shots and fewer 3-pt attempts because of style of play.  James is a slasher/dunker, and a terrible jump shooter.  His eFG% is higher because of differences in style of play in the two eras.

Bird is a better shooter period.  To say otherwise based on statistics is ignorant of how the game is played.

You keep using the "different era" excuse without really saying why it matters.  You say Bird was a better shooter period, but the stats really don't back that up.  Even from the three point line, he was only marginally better.

And PER, assist percentage, ORT, DRT are other stats that don't compare well over eras.  Anything over 20 years ago shouldn't be compared directly using those stats. 

LOL...because you say so???  Hilarious.

I'll take the team player that averaged 10% fewer pts, 42% more rebounds, 5% fewer assists, but 10% fewer turnovers.

Your reliance on per game stats is amusing.  And you would make your team worse by making that choice.

Yet again, you put Lebron on those Celtic teams and they are better.  You put peak Bird on this year's Cavs team, and they don't sniff the championship.

[Pakuni]

Yet again, you put Lebron on those Celtic teams and they are better.  You put peak Bird on this year's Cavs team, and they don't sniff the championship.

I generally agree with you on LeBron vs Bird (though don't think the other side is as outlandish as you seem to believe), but what makes this statement above any less "LOL .... because you say so??? Hilarious" than forgetful's statement.
I mean, how could possibly know that?

Also, is it possible Bird would have racked up even better stats had he played with lesser teammates? I've never heard anyone diminishing Magic's remarkable assist numbers because he played with Jabbar, Worthy and Scott, but Bird's numbers are less impressive because he had to share the ball with McHale and Parrish (and the great Jerry Sichting)?

[GGGG]

I generally agree with you on LeBron vs Bird (though don't think the other side is as outlandish as you seem to believe), but what makes this statement above any less "LOL .... because you say so??? Hilarious" than forgetful's statement.
I mean, how could possibly know that?

Because it's obvious.

Also, is it possible Bird would have racked up even better stats had he played with lesser teammates? I've never heard anyone diminishing Magic's remarkable assist numbers because he played with Jabbar, Worthy and Scott, but Bird's numbers are less impressive because he had to share the ball with McHale and Parrish (and the great Jerry Sichting)?

Who really knows.

[Pakuni]

Because it's obvious.

OK.

[forgetful]

You keep using the "different era" excuse without really saying why it matters.  You say Bird was a better shooter period, but the stats really don't back that up.  Even from the three point line, he was only marginally better.


LOL...because you say so???  Hilarious.


Your reliance on per game stats is amusing.  And you would make your team worse by making that choice.

Yet again, you put Lebron on those Celtic teams and they are better.  You put peak Bird on this year's Cavs team, and they don't sniff the championship.

Here is the reason you can't compare stats.  When Bird came into the league (and for most of his career) the league averaged between 3-5 total 3pt attempts per game.  Instead more mid range or long 2's were taken.

The league average for 3pt% was below 30% until 1988, compare that to 36% today.  Why?, players didn't grow up their entire life shooting 3's.  It wasn't part of the game.  Bird was only shooting about 3 3's per game most of his career.

That means that defenses were more packed in, making slashing/drives more difficult (this is why the 3pt shot was put in, to open up the game and make dunking/offense more exciting).  It also means that stats affected by 3pt, e.g. all the ones you use (not per game stats) are not comparable across the eras until around 1995, when the game had adapted and became more of what it is today.

It also means that Birds 37.6% 3 pt shooting was 20% above average, whereas Lebrons 34% is almost 10% below average. 

Everything in context.  We clearly disagree.  Bird vs. Lebron is a close call.  I give it to Bird because of his team player aspects and fighter attitude that makes everyone around him better. 

As for other stars.  You have discounted players like Kevin Love, because they build up stats on bad teams, and say Lebron would have won more if he had decent teammates; yet you don't discount Lebron's stats (for having bad teammates) or give Bird more credit for putting up huge numbers with stars.  Why the inconsistency?

[reinko]

Everything in context.  We clearly disagree.  Bird vs. Lebron is a close call.  I give it to Bird because of his team player aspects and fighter attitude that makes everyone around him better. 

So basically you give to Bird,  because of your own eye test on what makes a "team" player,  and your own scale of what a "fighter"  is. 

Oh yeah, please opine on the defensive prowess of one Larry Bird.

And I love Larry legend,  he still a top 10 NBA'er,  but Bron is clearly in the top 7,  along (in no order  MJ,  Kareem,  Wilt,  Magic,  Oscar,  and Russell).

[forgetful]

So basically you give to Bird,  because of your own eye test on what makes a "team" player,  and your own scale of what a "fighter"  is. 

Oh yeah, please opine on the defensive prowess of one Larry Bird.

And I love Larry legend,  he still a top 10 NBA'er,  but Bron is clearly in the top 7,  along (in no order  MJ,  Kareem,  Wilt,  Magic,  Oscar,  and Russell).

Bird made HOF of his teammates.  He played off the ball a lot to get everyone involved.  No one disagrees on Lebron dominating the ball (as evidenced by his 20% higher usage than Bird).  It affects his teammates play negatively.  He's the best player on the court for his team, so fine, but he would be top 3 (maybe number 1) all time if he learned to play better off the ball like Bird.

As for defense.  I hate the stats but Defensive rating for Bird's career, 101, for Lebron, 102.  Lebron is a bad on ball defender.  He is a help defender, like Bird was. 

I agree with your rankings, except have Bird in my top 7, and Lebron after with Duncan.  After MJ though, the first two I would want on my team are Bird and Duncan.

As for fighter.  Bird played with a back so bad he could barely walk straight and had to change the way he ran to deal with the pain.  Because of it, he had to have double achilles surgery and still fought back.

Lebron, gets cramps and is carried off the court crying.  He falls and squirms on the ground balling his eyes out (then shoots FTs like nothing happened).  If you don't see Bird as the fighter amongst the two of them, you are as blind as a bat.  As night and day as the difference in athleticism between them.

[GGGG]

Bird made HOF of his teammates.  He played off the ball a lot to get everyone involved.  No one disagrees on Lebron dominating the ball (as evidenced by his 20% higher usage than Bird).  It affects his teammates play negatively.  He's the best player on the court for his team, so fine, but he would be top 3 (maybe number 1) all time if he learned to play better off the ball like Bird.

No.  Bird had better teammates.  Dennis Johnson was an All-Star and a Finals MVP with the Sonics before he even came to Boston.  And you honestly think that Bird "made" Kevin McHale and Robert Parish???

And your insistence in saying that James doesn't get his teammates involved when compared to Bird is completely negated by his 34.6 Assist percentage...versus Bird's 24.7%. 

Lebron, gets cramps and is carried off the court crying.  He falls and squirms on the ground balling his eyes out (then shoots FTs like nothing happened).  If you don't see Bird as the fighter amongst the two of them, you are as blind as a bat.  As night and day as the difference in athleticism between them.

Larry Bird never had a Finals performance that came close to what Lebron just did.  When down 3-1, he came up with back to back 41 point games and a triple double in Game 7.  If that doesn't make him a "fighter" in your eyes, I don' t know what to tell you.

[Pakuni]

No.  Bird had better teammates.  Dennis Johnson was an All-Star and a Finals MVP with the Sonics before he even came to Boston.  And you honestly think that Bird "made" Kevin McHale and Robert Parish???

Err ...
Dwyane Wade was a 6-time All-Star and Finals MVP before he ever played with LeBron.
Chris Bosh was a 5-time All-Star before he ever played with LeBron.
Both are heading to the Hall of Fame.
Kevin Love was a two-time All-Star and rebounding champion before he ever played with LeBron.
Kyrie Irving was an all-star, rookie of the year and all-star game MVP before he ever played with LeBron.

Yep, it's dumb to say Bird "made" guys like Parrish and McHale (though he certainly helped make them better.) And it's just as dumb to ignore the extraordinary level of talent that LeBron has been surrounded by for most of the past six seasons (2015 playoffs excepted).

Larry Bird never had a Finals performance that came close to what Lebron just did.  When down 3-1, he came up with back to back 41 point games and a triple double in Game 7.  If that doesn't make him a "fighter" in your eyes, I don' t know what to tell you.

In all fairness, Larry pretty much averaged a triple double in the 1986 Finals (24/9.7/9.5) while playing 45 minutes per game.
That's pretty close.
Not a knock on the incredible Finals LeBron just had, but it doesn't help your case to consistently belittle Bird unfairly.

[MU82]

This has been a fun back-and-forth to read.

I don't have a horse in this race -- I am not a Celtics fan or Celtics hater, a Cavs fan or a Cavs hater. I am not really a Bird fan/hater or LeBron fan/hater except that I appreciated Bird as a player and I appreciate LeBron as a player now.

OK, now that the disclosures are all in place ...

LeBron can do more things on the court than Bird did. One poster (forgetful, I think) said something about LeBron having to have the ball to make an impact. Did LeBron have the ball when he blocked Iguodala's shot? Could Bird have even dreamt of making a play like that -- racing 40 feet, timing his leap perfectly at full speed and making a championship-saving play? That's just one example, too. In Miami, LeBron often deferred to Wade and made great plays that did not involve him possessing the ball.

The silliness about Bird turning McHale and Parish into Hall of Famers -- as if they would have been crap without him -- while LeBron did nothing to help his teammates win ... right.

Bird was somehow tougher than LeBron, physically or mentally? Totally impossible to prove, and even the anecdotal "evidence" is dopey. Blaming injuries for shortening Bird's career? That's life in sports. Maybe Gayle Sayers would have been the best football player ever, but to argue that he was would be foolish.

I like how some go to the "it was a different era" line to cut down LeBron's statistical advantage in everything but rebounds ... but then point out Bird's rebounding advantage. I guess it wasn't a different era for rebounding numbers, only for all the statistics LeBron dominated? Funny.

Statistically, LeBron is superior to Bird. Athletically, LeBron is far superior to Bird. They've won the same amount of championships -- with one of LeBron's coming for a franchise that had never won and with him being surrounded by inferior teammates.

LeBron is only 31 and probably has at least 5 more great seasons in him. He will leave Bird so far in the dust that Larry will need an umpire to brush him off. And I say this as a guy who really liked watching Bird play.

So far in this thread, we have Celtics fans making a case for Bird, and that is expected. We have LeBron haters making a case against LeBron, also expected.

I choose LeBron because I believe the stats and facts back that up, as does my eye test as an NBA fan who began watching the game long before Bird entered the league.

I know, I know, it's a different era for eye tests.

[GGGG]

Err ...
Dwyane Wade was a 6-time All-Star and Finals MVP before he ever played with LeBron.
Chris Bosh was a 5-time All-Star before he ever played with LeBron.
Both are heading to the Hall of Fame.
Kevin Love was a two-time All-Star and rebounding champion before he ever played with LeBron.
Kyrie Irving was an all-star, rookie of the year and all-star game MVP before he ever played with LeBron.

Yep, it's dumb to say Bird "made" guys like Parrish and McHale (though he certainly helped make them better.) And it's just as dumb to ignore the extraordinary level of talent that LeBron has been surrounded by for most of the past six seasons (2015 playoffs excepted).

I have never made the claim that James wasn't surrounded by talent.  He clearly has.  (Although I would argue much of it isn't yet at the caliber that Boston's was.)

This is a way that forgetful deflects the statistical comparison.  "He played off the ball and made his teammates better."  Basically saying he sacrificed his numbers for the sake of his team and for championships and "made' players like Johnson, Parish and McHale Hall of Famers.

In all fairness, Larry pretty much averaged a triple double in the 1986 Finals (24/9.7/9.5) while playing 45 minutes per game.
That's pretty close.
Not a knock on the incredible Finals LeBron just had, but it doesn't help your case to consistently belittle Bird unfairly.

Fine.  It was "somewhat close" to Lebron's 29.7/11.2/8.8 in 41 minutes. 

But Lebron isn't a "fighter." 

[brandx]

Bird made HOF of his teammates.  He played off the ball a lot to get everyone involved.  No one disagrees on Lebron dominating the ball (as evidenced by his 20% higher usage than Bird).  It affects his teammates play negatively.  He's the best player on the court for his team, so fine, but he would be top 3 (maybe number 1) all time if he learned to play better off the ball like Bird.

As for defense.  I hate the stats but Defensive rating for Bird's career, 101, for Lebron, 102.  Lebron is a bad on ball defender.  He is a help defender, like Bird was. 

Lebron has the championships BECAUSE he dominates the ball. Bird played with 3 HoFers when the Celtics were in their prime - plus Ainge who would have been a consistent 20+ ppg if he were on any other team. Those four were great players - Bird did not make them great.

And if the defensive ratings say Bird and Lebron are equal defensively, than the ratings need to be changed. There is no comparison.

[MU82]

Lebron has the championships BECAUSE he dominates the ball. Bird played with 3 HoFers when the Celtics were in their prime - plus Ainge who would have been a consistent 20+ ppg if he were on any other team. Those four were great players - Bird did not make them great.

And if the defensive ratings say Bird and Lebron are equal defensively, than the ratings need to be changed. There is no comparison.

Plus Dennis Johnson -- a great player. Plus Cornbread Maxwell -- a very good player. Plus Tiny Archibald, Bill Walton and Scott Wedman -- guys who excelled when younger and very good as older role players with Boston. The '80s Celtics were loaded.

And yes, what you say about the defensive ratings.

When the Heat played the Bulls in the 2011 Eastern Conference finals, Spoelstra regularly put LeBron on Derrick Rose during the key stretches of games. Rose shot 35% and never figured out how to handle it. I loved watching Bird, but let's not pretend Bird could have handled an assignment like that. And again, that doesn't even go into the many game-saving, series-saving and championship-saving blocks in LeBron's career. (I'm well aware that "Bird stole the ball!" against the Pistons; he was an instinctive and valuable help defender.)

[GGGG]

Plus Dennis Johnson -- a great player. Plus Cornbread Maxwell -- a very good player. Plus Tiny Archibald, Bill Walton and Scott Wedman -- guys who excelled when younger and very good as older role players with Boston. The '80s Celtics were loaded.

Dennis Johnson was one of the 3 HOF teammates.  (Along with McHale and Parish.)

Red Auerbach was one awesome GM who orchestrated the trade with Golden State that landed them both Parish and the #3 pick that landed the Celtics McHale.  He traded for Johnson after Archibald got too old.  (And I have forgotten that Archibald is also in the HOF.)

[MU82]

Dennis Johnson was one of the 3 HOF teammates.  (Along with McHale and Parish.)

Red Auerbach was one awesome GM who orchestrated the trade with Golden State that landed them both Parish and the #3 pick that landed the Celtics McHale.  He traded for Johnson after Archibald got too old.  (And I have forgotten that Archibald is also in the HOF.)

Yes on all of the above.

Bottom line: I'm not sure how Bird ever managed to win with all those mediocrities Red put around him.

[GGGG]

Yes on all of the above.

Bottom line: I'm not sure how Bird ever managed to win with all those mediocrities Red put around him.

Duh.  Because he "made them into Hall of Famers."  Try to keep up.

[forgetful]

Duh.  Because he "made them into Hall of Famers."  Try to keep up.

A couple clarifications (not all directed at you).

I said, Bird took All-stars and turned them into Hall of Famers.  I stand by my statement that if Bird didn't play for the Celtics Parrish and McHale would not be in the Hall of Fame. 

Related example:  If Love was to become a Hall of Fame player and played with James for 5-10 years.  I would say that Lebron turned him from an All-star to a HOF player.

I defined "fighter" based on toughness.  Bird was one of the toughest players of all time.  To deny that is absurd and downplays the extraordinary pain he played through and not only played but dominated.  No one will ever call Lebron one of the toughest players of all time. 

I find it funny how saying that Lebron is top 8 all time is being a hater.  I forgot rule number 1, thou shalt not criticize Lebron.  I stand by my statements and the fact that it is a widely debated topic throughout the internet shows it is a valid comparison.  Bringing the topic back to where it started. I stand by the following.

I get 3 picks to build a team around with players from the last 30 years.  I want:

MJ
Bird
Duncan

In that order.  That's not saying those are the best 3 players of all time, but rather that they have the skill, mentality and team focus that will beat any team.  I can fill a team with a  C and PG...that nucleus though will (imo) beat any other trio.

[forgetful]

Related to shooting. 

This is a good read about comparing era on shooting statistics.

http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/best-shooters-nba-history/

Bird is hands down one of the top 10 shooters of the past 40 years.  Using his statistics to disprove this defies actual understanding of how the game has evolved over the decades and Birds immense role in that process.

[brandx]

Related to shooting. 

This is a good read about comparing era on shooting statistics.

http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/best-shooters-nba-history/

Bird is hands down one of the top 10 shooters of the past 40 years.  Using his statistics to disprove this defies actual understanding of how the game has evolved over the decades and Birds immense role in that process.

I agree with the shooting. But he was still not the player that Lebron is. Bird is maybe Top Ten all-time. Lebron is Top Five.

[MU82]

A couple clarifications (not all directed at you).

I said, Bird took All-stars and turned them into Hall of Famers.  I stand by my statement that if Bird didn't play for the Celtics Parrish and McHale would not be in the Hall of Fame. 

Related example:  If Love was to become a Hall of Fame player and played with James for 5-10 years.  I would say that Lebron turned him from an All-star to a HOF player.

I defined "fighter" based on toughness.  Bird was one of the toughest players of all time.  To deny that is absurd and downplays the extraordinary pain he played through and not only played but dominated.  No one will ever call Lebron one of the toughest players of all time. 

I find it funny how saying that Lebron is top 8 all time is being a hater.  I forgot rule number 1, thou shalt not criticize Lebron.  I stand by my statements and the fact that it is a widely debated topic throughout the internet shows it is a valid comparison.  Bringing the topic back to where it started. I stand by the following.

I get 3 picks to build a team around with players from the last 30 years.  I want:

MJ
Bird
Duncan

In that order.  That's not saying those are the best 3 players of all time, but rather that they have the skill, mentality and team focus that will beat any team.  I can fill a team with a  C and PG...that nucleus though will (imo) beat any other trio.

It's an opinion. You say McHale would not have been a Hall of Famer without Bird, and I say he would have been, especially if he had another great player -- let's say James, but it could be Magic or Jordan or Stockton or many others -- by his side.

Neither of us can prove it ... and yet you act as if it's a given: McHale is a Hall of Famer ONLY because he had Bird.

Who was/is "tougher," Bird or LeBron ... again, impossible to prove. You just have an opinion. You are entitled to that opinion and you even can cite others' opinions ... but no matter how often you say it, it doesn't make it a fact. LeBron willed his team back from a 3-1 series deficit against what many were calling the greatest team of all time. Two of the games were in as hostile an environment as there is in the NBA. That three-game stretch of amazing clutch play exceeded any three-game stretch of Bird's career ... but oh, if only LeBron had been tough enough.

As for who you would choose to build a team around ... that is another subject entirely. I'd probably start with Michael and LeBron, and I do seriously believe they could have co-existed, but I certainly would understand a Michael-Bird or Michael-Magic pairing. Or, for that matter, a LeBron-Bird or LeBron-Magic pairing.

See, the difference between me and you on this is simple: You have said many, many times that you don't like LeBron. You might not see that as clouding your judgment, but of course it does. I, on the other hand, really loved watching Bird as a player and respect him tremendously. So it's not easy for me to place LeBron or others ahead of him. Obviously, I believe that makes me much more objective on this than you are. Again, you are free to disagree.

[forgetful]

It's an opinion. You say McHale would not have been a Hall of Famer without Bird, and I say he would have been, especially if he had another great player -- let's say James, but it could be Magic or Jordan or Stockton or many others -- by his side.

Neither of us can prove it ... and yet you act as if it's a given: McHale is a Hall of Famer ONLY because he had Bird.

Who was/is "tougher," Bird or LeBron ... again, impossible to prove. You just have an opinion. You are entitled to that opinion and you even can cite others' opinions ... but no matter how often you say it, it doesn't make it a fact. LeBron willed his team back from a 3-1 series deficit against what many were calling the greatest team of all time. Two of the games were in as hostile an environment as there is in the NBA. That three-game stretch of amazing clutch play exceeded any three-game stretch of Bird's career ... but oh, if only LeBron had been tough enough.

As for who you would choose to build a team around ... that is another subject entirely. I'd probably start with Michael and LeBron, and I do seriously believe they could have co-existed, but I certainly would understand a Michael-Bird or Michael-Magic pairing. Or, for that matter, a LeBron-Bird or LeBron-Magic pairing.

See, the difference between me and you on this is simple: You have said many, many times that you don't like LeBron. You might not see that as clouding your judgment, but of course it does. I, on the other hand, really loved watching Bird as a player and respect him tremendously. So it's not easy for me to place LeBron or others ahead of him. Obviously, I believe that makes me much more objective on this than you are. Again, you are free to disagree.

Just for the record, I've never said anyone else was wrong, just justified my opinion when I was told that I was wrong (on an opinion) and that my stance was absurd.

So, I am in agreement that what I said above was all opinions and I never said otherwise. 

Now, for fighter, you keep going back to bringing a team back from the brink.  I defined it as playing tough (i.e. physical toughness, playing through pain).  I find very very little evidence that Lebron is physically tough.

As for bias.  Yes, I dislike Lebron.  I still place him 8th all time.  I also hated Magic.  I place him top 5 all time.
I actually think that more people have bias for Lebron, because they get awestruck by his physicality and forget to watch everything else.  Its also the "current star" mentality...like 5 years ago when everyone talked about Kobe vs. Jordan and where he ranked all time.

When evaluating basketball players, the first thing I look at is how they impact their teammates...its a team game.  It is there that Lebron gets knocked down in my book and Magic (even thought I hated him) climbs...same for Bird.  But again...its all opinion and I never said otherwise.  I just defended my stance when ridiculed for saying a player who revolutionized the game and is a unanimous top 10 player all time could be better than Lebron.

[MU82]

Just for the record, I've never said anyone else was wrong, just justified my opinion when I was told that I was wrong (on an opinion) and that my stance was absurd.

So, I am in agreement that what I said above was all opinions and I never said otherwise. 

Now, for fighter, you keep going back to bringing a team back from the brink.  I defined it as playing tough (i.e. physical toughness, playing through pain).  I find very very little evidence that Lebron is physically tough.

As for bias.  Yes, I dislike Lebron.  I still place him 8th all time.  I also hated Magic.  I place him top 5 all time.
I actually think that more people have bias for Lebron, because they get awestruck by his physicality and forget to watch everything else.  Its also the "current star" mentality...like 5 years ago when everyone talked about Kobe vs. Jordan and where he ranked all time.

When evaluating basketball players, the first thing I look at is how they impact their teammates...its a team game.  It is there that Lebron gets knocked down in my book and Magic (even thought I hated him) climbs...same for Bird.  But again...its all opinion and I never said otherwise.  I just defended my stance when ridiculed for saying a player who revolutionized the game and is a unanimous top 10 player all time could be better than Lebron.

OK, forgetful. You have no "proof" that Bird is one iota tougher than LeBron or that Bird made his teammates better than LeBron does, and I have no proof otherwise. So it's silly to go back and forth on this, just re-stating our stances.

Have a good one.

[Galway Eagle]

OK, forgetful. You have no "proof" that Bird is one iota tougher than LeBron or that Bird made his teammates better than LeBron does, and I have no proof otherwise. So it's silly to go back and forth on this, just re-stating our stances.

Have a good one.

In all fairness if you google lebron flopping vs Larry bird flopping, lebrons video is much longer. If you google Larry bird fight vs lebron fight it's pretty funny

Here's lebrons

https://youtu.be/SWTfVAkzpSE

Here's Larrys

https://youtu.be/t1e7CTQ7V4A

Far be it for me to say what defines tough but I'd say as far as forgetfulness definition goes it's pretty obvious that Larry tussling with everybody on Detroit is tougher than lebron freaking out that harden almost kicking him in the nuts. But hey that's just my opinion.

[MU82]

In all fairness if you google lebron flopping vs Larry bird flopping, lebrons video is much longer. If you google Larry bird fight vs lebron fight it's pretty funny

Here's lebrons

https://youtu.be/SWTfVAkzpSE

Here's Larrys

https://youtu.be/t1e7CTQ7V4A

Far be it for me to say what defines tough but I'd say as far as forgetfulness definition goes it's pretty obvious that Larry tussling with everybody on Detroit is tougher than lebron freaking out that harden almost kicking him in the nuts. But hey that's just my opinion.

Okey dokey. I happen to reject forgetful's definition, but others are free to accept it or to define it themselves.

Even if I give this point to the LeBron haters (which I don't), it's a very small part of the comparison. LeBron dominates Bird in almost every statistical measurement, was a significantly superior defender and won just as many titles.

I didn't even mention LeBron getting to the 2007 Finals with a Cleveland team whose next best players were Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Or leading the Irving-less, Love-less Cavs to the 2015 Finals (and winning two games there from the all-everything Warriors). One could argue quite persuasively that those were bigger team-leading accomplishments than anything Bird did.

But yes, Larry could make some freaky shots in McDonald's commercials that LeBron couldn't, I'll admit that!

[Galway Eagle]

Okey dokey. I happen to reject forgetful's definition, but others are free to accept it or to define it themselves.

Even if I give this point to the LeBron haters (which I don't), it's a very small part of the comparison. LeBron dominates Bird in almost every statistical measurement, was a significantly superior defender and won just as many titles.

I didn't even mention LeBron getting to the 2007 Finals with a Cleveland team whose next best players were Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Or leading the Irving-less, Love-less Cavs to the 2015 Finals (and winning two games there from the all-everything Warriors). One could argue quite persuasively that those were bigger team-leading accomplishments than anything Bird did.

But yes, Larry could make some freaky shots in McDonald's commercials that LeBron couldn't, I'll admit that!

I'm not arguing the Lebron vs Bird thing. I refuse to compare players from various eras. They both play[ed] at a really high level and lead their teams during the rules and styles they were raised playing in.

But the only thing I take exception to is Lebron being called tough. Lebron was astonishing in these past finals and has done other amazing things, that is mentally resilient, but he is not "tough". He plays in an era where contact is pretty much non existent, not his fault, but on top of that flops around and gets rewarded for it. Bird was a warrior who didn't take crap from anyone, playing at a time where the game was practically full contact, he was truly tough.

So then when someone says they're tough what definition does come to mind for you?