Archdiocese of New Orleans

[dgies9156]

When I asked how Protestant churches handle it, it was basically a rhetorical question.

My point is that nearly every other major organized religion allows their clergy to marry and have families, so it is definitely doable.

And just because their is a huge, arcane hierarchy to support currently in the Catholic church, it doesn't mean it has to stay that way.  I don't recall Jesus commanding his apostles to set it up like that.  But it probably won't change.

It will change when the priest shortage become so acute that the church becomes nonexistent in some areas.

Probably not in our lifetime, but it will happen.

[rocket surgeon]

goose-you make us MS boys proud to have you as a charter member-may God bless ya!  great topic for our next summit

[Goose]

Rocket

We have a lot of topics to discuss at the next summit.

[HouWarrior]

  Thanks for the high-quality collegial discussion on the elimination of celibacy.
Now there is coffee and doughnuts in the lobby for all

[LloydsLegs]

Just reading this thread.  Wonderful to see civility and thoughtful expression on what is such a difficult topic. Special applause to DG and Goose.

[Pakuni]

When I asked how Protestant churches handle it, it was basically a rhetorical question.

My point is that nearly every other major organized religion allows their clergy to marry and have families, so it is definitely doable.

And just because their is a huge, arcane hierarchy to support currently in the Catholic church, it doesn't mean it has to stay that way.  I don't recall Jesus commanding his apostles to set it up like that.  But it probably won't change.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it's impossible. Just suggesting it's going to be a challenge to find  young family men (or women) eager to work a full-time job and try to raise a family for compensation in the neighborhood of minimum wage. Even with a working spouse (and now you're talking about child care costs), there are plenty places where priests simply won't be able to afford living in the communities they serve. Tough raising a family anywhere on the North Shore on a priest's salary.

What you're more likely to see, IMO, is older people making a late-life career change after their kids have moved on and they've built up a bit of a nest egg. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Goose]

I am pretty sure the Church could compensate a married priest with a family. They have proven to have very deep pockets when they needed to pay off victims. I would gladly prove financial support to my parish if the money was being used properly.

[dgies9156]

One fascinating question that's arisen has been approaching priests for guidance or help on our everyday life. Some of you have said you can never trust a priest again and I understand that, given what's happened in our church. Given what's happened with some Protestant congregations, I'm sure some of our Protestant brothers and sisters are saying the same thing!

But the interesting link is the way the ordained ministry in our church reacts with the congregation at large and, frankly, whether most of these people have a clue what's happening on our side of the altar rail. I'm arguing, they don't!

Priests are few and parishes are big. So the notion that each household in a congregation is on a first name basis with the priests of the parish is quaint and also quite ridiculous. Unless you're a financial heavy hitter or extremely active in your parish, chance are none of the clergy knows you. Without that relationship, it's tough to rely on the ministry for anything other than canned advice from some resource parishes have.

Conversely, because Priests live in their own world, they are oblivious to the challenges the people of God face daily. Again, canned advice that doesn't really work.

At the very least, married men and ordained women will bring a broader perspective to Church leadership and better allow the church to serve its people. It will force our leadership into the community and ensure a real world perspective, especially if wives are working, children are griping and the dog needs to be put out!

[warriorchick]

I don't think anyone is suggesting it's impossible. Just suggesting it's going to be a challenge to find  young family men (or women) eager to work a full-time job and try to raise a family for compensation in the neighborhood of minimum wage. Even with a working spouse (and now you're talking about child care costs), there are plenty places where priests simply won't be able to afford living in the communities they serve. Tough raising a family anywhere on the North Shore on a priest's salary.

What you're more likely to see, IMO, is older people making a late-life career change after their kids have moved on and they've built up a bit of a nest egg. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

All I know is that the number of people (both men and women) who would consider the priesthood if it weren't for the whole celibacy thing is greater than zero.  If the church wants to survive, it needs to start considering its options.

[JWags85]

I don't think anyone is suggesting it's impossible. Just suggesting it's going to be a challenge to find  young family men (or women) eager to work a full-time job and try to raise a family for compensation in the neighborhood of minimum wage. Even with a working spouse (and now you're talking about child care costs), there are plenty places where priests simply won't be able to afford living in the communities they serve. Tough raising a family anywhere on the North Shore on a priest's salary.

What you're more likely to see, IMO, is older people making a late-life career change after their kids have moved on and they've built up a bit of a nest egg. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Its fairly common for Protestant churches to have a pastor's house on the property (every one I was ever a member of growing up and all others in the communities were the same), so I wonder if a similar solution would need to be developed.  I'd think the salary is more palatable if you don't have housing costs involved.

[Pakuni]

All I know is that the number of people (both men and women) who would consider the priesthood if it weren't for the whole celibacy thing is greater than zero.  If the church wants to survive, it needs to start considering its options.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

[Goose]

dgies

I am very conflicted on my trust of Priests. While I am very disappointed in what has happened I really, really, really want to trust the words of a Priest. I guess I take the words with caution, but there definitely is comfort in their words. This is a struggle that I do not like having and try to find some level of trust. It really sucks that in mind that some guilt by association just won't go completely away.

[warriorchick]

Its fairly common for Protestant churches to have a pastor's house on the property (every one I was ever a member of growing up and all others in the communities were the same), so I wonder if a similar solution would need to be developed.  I'd think the salary is more palatable if you don't have housing costs involved.

Many parishes would have rectories that could be converted to a more family-friendly house.

[Pakuni]

Many parishes would have rectories that could be converted to a more family-friendly house.

Sure, for one priest/family.
What about the 1-2 others that typically live there?

I'm all for married priests with families. But there are huge financial implications that make it a trickier proposition than some wish to believe.

[warriorchick]

Sure, for one priest/family.
What about the 1-2 others that typically live there?

I'm all for married priests with families. But there are huge financial implications that make it a trickier proposition than some wish to believe.

How many parishes have more than one priest these days?

[dgies9156]

How many parishes have more than one priest these days?

Our Parish in Libertyville in the Archdiocese of Chicago had three. All were foreign born and one could barely understand two of them. The foreign-born priests had no clue about Middle-Class America! During my time there, I'm not sure they wanted to learn.

In Vero Beach, the Diocese of Palm Beach, we soon will have three. Our Pastor has doubled as Principal of the nearby Catholic High School (in Ft. Pierce, FL). We have a newly ordained Associate starting July 1 and we have a third priest (the best of the lot) who is a retired Diocese of Brooklyn priest who lives in our parish. We have a fourth Paulist priest who is part of a local community of priests who says Mass at our Parish on Sunday.

[Pakuni]

How many parishes have more than one priest these days?

I imagine it varies widely by location and size of the congregation.
My parish has three, for 3,500 registered families. The parish I grew up in, which is a little larger, also has three.

The Archdiocese of Chicago has 672 diocesan priests and 379 religious priests for 216 parishes. Obviously not all of those priests are assigned to a particular parish, but I'd bet nearly all have at least two.
On the other hand, many rural Catholic parishes share a priest.

[tower912]

Priests are human.  (I make the same argument about cops)  If you spend time with them, you get a sense of them.   I have been fortunate to have good priests in my life.   Sadly, one died of COVID and one had to retire early due to long COVID.   Alas. 

 I have had priests in my life that I instantly disliked.  I avoided them. 

From a spirituality standpoint, like any relationship, mine with God evolves.   I pray many times a day, carry on a conversation with him much of the time.   Sometimes, I feel like he speaks back.    Sometimes, I am mad at him, others, he is disappointed with me.    But I consistently feel nudged toward loving my neighbor, railing against false prophets, seeing how many laughs I
can get from strangers during our daily interactions.   
   For whatever reason God always finds a way to send a message when I act in a truly selfish manner.  Often comically so.    So I try not to.   

That will not change, regardless of the human construct I choose to spend my Sunday morning in.   

The Lutheran minister who officiated my wedding is a woman.    I greatly enjoyed my very Catholic side of the congregation wrapping their heads around it.

[LloydsLegs]

I imagine it varies widely by location and size of the congregation.
My parish has three, for 3,500 registered families. The parish I grew up in, which is a little larger, also has three.

The Archdiocese of Chicago has 672 diocesan priests and 379 religious priests for 216 parishes. Obviously not all of those priests are assigned to a particular parish, but I'd bet nearly all have at least two.
On the other hand, many rural Catholic parishes share a priest.

A couple of comments. 

In Oak Park, we have 4 Catholic churches.  Until two years ago, there were four parishes.  After the Renew My Church process, there are two parishes with two churches each.  Six months ago, the pastor (foreign born) of one of the two remaining parishes recognized that he was not good at the pastor's role.  So, we now have one pastor for all 4 churches.  And one other priest officially assigned (a second has just been moved).  We are lucky to have lots of other priests who help, a few of them who live in one or the other of the rectories, including one jesuit and a claretion.

And the lay community has stepped up in a huge way, not only with helping to run the day to day activities that always have been in place (and coordinating or consolidating programs like some aspects of religious ed, seniors group activities etc), but also expanding the social services offered, in particular, to our neighbors on the West Side, and with a very successful transitional migrant ministry, which played a pivotal role in transitioning to permanent housing ALL of the migrant's who came to Oak Park from Chicago last fall.  Part of those plan took advantage of under or unused space (rectory and offices at one church, school building at the one school that was no longer in use etc).

It will continue to be a challenge (especially the inevitable second step when physical plant of a couple of the churches is sold), and I worry about our pastor's potential burnout, but the recent process has been heartening.

On the issue of foreign born priests.  Of course many are wonderful, but several years ago the Arch in Chicago stopped recruiting/accepting foreign born/raised priests who have not been ordained for at least 10 years.  Several classes of priests from 10 to 20 years ago are almost all now out of the priesthood, for a myriad of reasons.  They are back to recruiting in colleges etc.

[Goose]

tower

I love your communication with God. I have a very similar daily communication pattern with God. Over the course of the past several years I have had some difficult times and talking with God made my life feel much better. While I am not above asking for help, every night I tell God to take care of any of the 7+ billion people on this planet that needs His help more than I do. In a strange way it gives me peace each night knowing that I am blessed and that others need His help more than I do.

As I noted yesterday, my relationship with God is somewhat new, but really glad that I have relationship in my life. To be honest, I could not imagine a life without that relationship. One thing I have learned, we all have our reasons for being active or inactive with our Faith and I respect both sides. Thankfully, I think God has been a great addition to my life.

[dgies9156]

I imagine it varies widely by location and size of the congregation.

On the other hand, many rural Catholic parishes share a priest.

The Diocese of Superior, WI, which covers most of Northwest Wisconsin, is a prime example.

They've had a priest shortage up there for years. My parents had a home in Solon Springs, WI, about 35 miles south of Superior. There were sister parishes in Gordon and Minong, WI. Between the three parishes, which from top to bottom are about 22 miles apart, they had one priest who said Mass at all three parishes.

Rural Douglas and Washburn Counties are typical of the problems rural priests face -- lots of distance and modest amounts of Catholics whose spiritual needs are just as important as city dwelling Catholics. That's going to lead to burnout, as Brother Legs pointed out for Oak Park.

In Superior itself, most of the parishes, including the Cathedral of Christ the King, share priests with other Catholic congregations.

[tower912]

Goose, every night, I say a decade of the rosary, thank God for all of the gifts that have been bestowed on me, and pray for wisdom, courage, patience, strength, and discernment.

[Goose]

tower

That is time well spent, imo.

[tower912]

Out parish has been without a pastor since the first of the year due to long COVID/early retirement.    We are curious to see what the diocese ends up doing.   IMO, parishes are going to close/merge.  The questions will be how to manage the schools and which has the most desirable real estate.

[Goose]

Sadly my MIL's parish will be closing in the next 6-9 months. It has a mainstay in her life since they moved here in 1978 and she has attended daily Mass 99% of the days she is lived here. She was choir director, music teacher at the school and the closing hit the family hard.

On a sidenote, Pat Connaughton bought the property, and his real estate company is building the apartment complex on the land.