Phil Martelli?

[MUBurrow]

You are right. But it is being passed away with Wojo-Dukiet.

If the previous coach has a big impact on how good the job is, it wasn't that good of a job to begin with.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

That would be a challenging sell with the do it sooner than five years crowd.

Agreed, but there are coaches in that population that could do it sooner than 5 years. Just gotta identify the right one.

[panda]

95% of programs in the country don't have the money to pay for a guy who's in the midst of success at a high major school.

Understanding that statement, MU has the resources to pay for a respected, successful HC at a lower level program who's looking to climb the ladder.

Crying poor because we can't get a premier guy away from school X is not being completely honest with the programs supposed ambitions.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

95% of programs in the country don't have the money to pay for a guy who's in the midst of success at a high major school.

Understanding that statement, MU has the resources to pay for a respected, successful HC at a lower level program who's looking to climb the ladder.

Crying poor because we can't get a premier guy away from school X is not being completely honest with the programs supposed ambitions.

Never said anything different.  But as you can see in this thread,  there are those who think we can drop 5 million a year and can have anyone we want. That's what my post is addressing

[panda]

Never said anything different.  But as you can see in this thread,  there are those who think we can drop 5 million a year and can have anyone we want. That's what my post is addressing

Fair enough. Those people don't understand Marquette's stature within the landscape of college basketball.

Having said that - This is a destination job. The Buzz hire was mainly for player continuity sake and it turned to golden, but the last two hires have been two of the top assistant coaches in the country at the time. The job pays well, resources to compete at a high level and basketball as a primary focus. We will attract the "sexy" mid major HC's and top level assistants when the position opens up.

Pining for Matta, Beilein, Oats etc. shows which people don't understand the full picture.

[shoothoops]

Agreed, but there are coaches in that population that could do it sooner than 5 years. Just gotta identify the right one.

There are even a few people in these threads chirping about Buzz at TAMU even though it's only his 2nd season there.

What are these people going to do when it takes a few years to have some success and establish almost annual success?

[MU82]

My point is that MU should be able to get whoever they want. 

Silly. And wrong.

[GOO]

Silly. And wrong.

If someone really thinks we can get whomever we want, wow.  Hopefully that was a bit of sarcasm. If not, heck Doc and Wardle are my co-head coach choices.  We can also keep Wojo on to recruit.

[94Warrior]

Why stop at Martelli?

Maybe Hubie Brown or Louie Carnesecca would be interested. They sure won a lot!

Hologram Al or Zombie John Wooden might have more in the tank than Phil Martelli.

[forgetful]

There are even a few people in these threads chirping about Buzz at TAMU even though it's only his 2nd season there.

What are these people going to do when it takes a few years to have some success and establish almost annual success?

This could be referencing my post in the other thread that "Buzz might be available cheap soon."

Just to clarify, I'm not saying someone should be fired for a couple bad seasons in a rebuild.

Rather, that if you apply the criteria, many on these boards are applying to Wojo, Buzz should be out at TAMU. Also, if Buzz had stayed at MU one more season (which would have been as bad as Wojo's first year), they would have been calling for him to be fired (and actually for historical purposes, when we were team bubble watch for a few seasons, many on here were calling for Buzz to be fired, and that he couldn't make 2nd half adjustments).

We all want MU to be elite. I'm not sure Wojo is the person to get us there (nor was I sure on Buzz), but I think his inadequacies are being overplayed. I think the best thing for MU right now, would be to keep Wojo another year, and try to get a veteran coach on the bench with him, kind of like Wainwright was for Buzz.

[Hards Alumni]

Fair enough. Those people don't understand Marquette's stature within the landscape of college basketball.

Having said that - This is a destination job. The Buzz hire was mainly for player continuity sake and it turned to golden, but the last two hires have been two of the top assistant coaches in the country at the time. The job pays well, resources to compete at a high level and basketball as a primary focus. We will attract the "sexy" mid major HC's and top level assistants when the position opens up.

Pining for Matta, Beilein, Oats etc. shows which people don't understand the full picture.

It isn't a destination job.  The last two coaches have made it clear that it is a stepping stone.  Wojo was a 'top assistant' coach for 15 years before getting his first major head coaching job.  We rolled the dice, and I think we can see why it took him 15 years to leave Durham.  We have exactly zero shot at Matta or Beilein.  Oats was a possibility until Bama decided to pay him what he deserved.

We are what we are.  A second tier BEAST team with excellent resources dedicated to basketball.  Those dreaming of us returning to the days of Al need to wake up and realize the game has changed a lot in the last 45 years.

[panda]

This could be referencing my post in the other thread that "Buzz might be available cheap soon."

Just to clarify, I'm not saying someone should be fired for a couple bad seasons in a rebuild.

Rather, that if you apply the criteria, many on these boards are applying to Wojo, Buzz should be out at TAMU. Also, if Buzz had stayed at MU one more season (which would have been as bad as Wojo's first year), they would have been calling for him to be fired (and actually for historical purposes, when we were team bubble watch for a few seasons, many on here were calling for Buzz to be fired, and that he couldn't make 2nd half adjustments).

We all want MU to be elite. I'm not sure Wojo is the person to get us there (nor was I sure on Buzz), but I think his inadequacies are being overplayed. I think the best thing for MU right now, would be to keep Wojo another year, and try to get a veteran coach on the bench with him, kind of like Wainwright was for Buzz.

Buzz had some average seasons (in one of the best conferences ever), but made up for it by one, making the tournament and then two, winning games in the tournament. He also had very successful seasons overall. That earns you leeway with a fan base to have rebuilding seasons. Wojo has not come remotely close to earning that leeway. The only thing saving his job is COVID and the circumstances surrounding it.

As an aside, there will be fans at every program, at every point of the season and off-season who believe their coach isn't doing a good job. That shouldn't be used as a reason to keep a coach who has underachieved for the duration of his stay.

[cheebs09]

Hologram Al or Zombie John Wooden might have more in the tank than Phil Martelli.

The best part of Hologram Al is you really only need him for the games. Hologram Hank can handle the practices.

Let’s just hope both are better than the Hologram Lombardi from the Super Bowl.

[tower912]

Still need a hologram recruiter.   

[cheebs09]

It isn't a destination job.  The last two coaches have made it clear that it is a stepping stone.  Wojo was a 'top assistant' coach for 15 years before getting his first major head coaching job.  We rolled the dice, and I think we can see why it took him 15 years to leave Durham.  We have exactly zero shot at Matta or Beilein.  Oats was a possibility until Bama decided to pay him what he deserved.

We are what we are.  A second tier BEAST team with excellent resources dedicated to basketball.  Those dreaming of us returning to the days of Al need to wake up and realize the game has changed a lot in the last 45 years.

I don’t think we should downgrade Wojo’s resume just because he hasn’t panned out. As far as assistants go, he was one of the bigger, well-known names. 15 years at a gold standard program and Team USA.

Now it’s looking like Duke has a bit of a Belichick coaching tree situation going on. Where the head coach might be so good, he’s covering up for weaknesses from assistants. Or the assistants are very capable handling their piece of the pie, but not sitting in the big seat.

[panda]

It isn't a destination job.  The last two coaches have made it clear that it is a stepping stone.  Wojo was a 'top assistant' coach for 15 years before getting his first major head coaching job.  We rolled the dice, and I think we can see why it took him 15 years to leave Durham.  We have exactly zero shot at Matta or Beilein.  Oats was a possibility until Bama decided to pay him what he deserved.

We are what we are.  A second tier BEAST team with excellent resources dedicated to basketball.  Those dreaming of us returning to the days of Al need to wake up and realize the game has changed a lot in the last 45 years.

I used the wrong adjective. Which schools in NCAA basketball are widely accepted as destination jobs? Kentucky and Duke? Maybe a couple others.

What I meant is that this is a job that when it opens will have many highly qualified applicants looking to make a move up. Crean and Buzz are examples of two guys who have won here in modern times. The resources are available to make a quick bounce back to where the program was at with those two.

[shoothoops]

This could be referencing my post in the other thread that "Buzz might be available cheap soon."

Just to clarify, I'm not saying someone should be fired for a couple bad seasons in a rebuild.

Rather, that if you apply the criteria, many on these boards are applying to Wojo, Buzz should be out at TAMU. Also, if Buzz had stayed at MU one more season (which would have been as bad as Wojo's first year), they would have been calling for him to be fired (and actually for historical purposes, when we were team bubble watch for a few seasons, many on here were calling for Buzz to be fired, and that he couldn't make 2nd half adjustments).

We all want MU to be elite. I'm not sure Wojo is the person to get us there (nor was I sure on Buzz), but I think his inadequacies are being overplayed. I think the best thing for MU right now, would be to keep Wojo another year, and try to get a veteran coach on the bench with him, kind of like Wainwright was for Buzz.

Huh?

This is Wojo's 7th season at Marquette. Buzz has had two seasons at TAMU. If Buzz' results at TAMU after the next five years, are similar to to Wojo's now, let's re-visit that.

Also, Buzz brought successful recruits to Virginia Tech, that he would have brought to Marquette.

As has been mentioned, the former version of the Big East when Buzz coached in it, was more challenging than the version since.

Your standards of success for Wojo and Buzz appear to be very different from each other.

[79Warrior]

Ugh.  For the millionth time, the budget is high because they pay rent to play in the FF.

The idea that Marquette can pay whatever it wants for a coach isn't accurate.

Exactly. People are delusional about MU state of affairs. In what world are we paying up for a coach when the University is in austerity mode, laying off employees etc. ?  Unless he opts to go, MU is not unloading Wojo right now.

[Billy Hoyle]

I don’t think we should downgrade Wojo’s resume just because he hasn’t panned out. As far as assistants go, he was one of the bigger, well-known names. 15 years at a gold standard program and Team USA.

Now it’s looking like Duke has a bit of a Belichick coaching tree situation going on. Where the head coach might be so good, he’s covering up for weaknesses from assistants. Or the assistants are very capable handling their piece of the pie, but not sitting in the big seat.

Now?? That's been pretty obvious for years. The only K assistant who has seen sustained success is Bray...the only one who didn't play for Duke.

But, like NFL teams do with Patriots assistants, college AD's remain enamored with Duke and think "this guy will be different and replicate Duke's success."

[Billy Hoyle]

He had some rough years....but certainly has experience.  I was just throwing it out there...he could have conceivably helped us..  But I guess he's no Spring chicken.  In a perfect world who would you want MU to snag assuming we MOAB the current regime?

a better option right now would be hiring a guy like Martelli as an assistant as Howard did at UM.

[MuggsyB]

Hologram Al or Zombie John Wooden might have more in the tank than Phil Martelli.

I suppose I was not thinking clearly about Martelli. I was surprised to see him on the Mich bench.  Anyway we need to find the right fit at MU and turn things around.

[cheebs09]

Now?? That's been pretty obvious for years. The only K assistant who has seen sustained success is Bray...the only one who didn't play for Duke.

But, like NFL teams do with Patriots assistants, college AD's remain enamored with Duke and think "this guy will be different and replicate Duke's success."

That’s fair. Don’t get me wrong, when Wojo’s name popped up, I wasn’t exactly jumping for joy.

Amaker had been having some success at Harvard. Collins was ok at Northwestern. Capel had some success at Oklahoma before NCAA issues.

You are right though, the Duke assistant reputation was already out there at that point. I think there was some hope that Wojo was K’s favorite, so he might me different.

[forgetful]

Huh?

This is Wojo's 7th season at Marquette. Buzz has had two seasons at TAMU. If Buzz' results at TAMU after the next five years, are similar to to Wojo's now, let's re-visit that.

Also, Buzz brought successful recruits to Virginia Tech, that he would have brought to Marquette.

As has been mentioned, the former version of the Big East when Buzz coached in it, was more challenging than the version since.

Your standards of success for Wojo and Buzz appear to be very different from each other.

I'm not posting on my standards for either.

I'm posting based on the standards people on this board are applying. You may not remember it, but Buzz was often berated on here for not being able to make adjustments in the 2nd half, and others calling for him to be removed when we were in constant bubble talk, then the same people claiming he was the next Al when he wins a big game. Wojo's first 2 years here were better than Buzz's first 2-years at TAMU, and people were already calling him a mistake and that he should be removed.

I'm not going to relitigate the cupboard Buzz left or would have had going into Wojo's first year. It is futile.

Now, if you want my personal opinions.

Overall, Buzz was an above average coach. He benefited by finding some amazing under the radar talent, that turned into all big-east and NBA levels, at the JC level, but really struggled finding and developing 4-year talent. When he was at MU, especially in the beginning, he excelled at game planning/prep before the game/season, but still was learning and needed to learn in game adjustments. If he had stayed, and couldn't access the JC-level like he likes, he would have likely had MU at constant mediocrity, possibly underperforming what Wojo did, depending on how he adapted to not accessing JC players.

Now, Wojo. He's still learning how to run a program long-term. I think he gets a bit of a bad rap on here. People focus on the end of season collapses, and neglect the fact that prior to them, he had the teams performing above their talent level. He struggles with in season adjustments, and adapting the program plan to the teams strengths. I'm not certain he is the best option long term, but think it would be a mistake to move on now.

If Carton, Lewis, and Garcia all return, we might have a really strong team next here. Especially if we can pick up a impact transfer. Give him 1 more year, in my opinion, and then re-evaluate.

[shoothoops]

I'm not posting on my standards for either.

I'm posting based on the standards people on this board are applying. You may not remember it, but Buzz was often berated on here for not being able to make adjustments in the 2nd half, and others calling for him to be removed when we were in constant bubble talk, then the same people claiming he was the next Al when he wins a big game. Wojo's first 2 years here were better than Buzz's first 2-years at TAMU, and people were already calling him a mistake and that he should be removed.

I'm not going to relitigate the cupboard Buzz left or would have had going into Wojo's first year. It is futile.

Now, if you want my personal opinions.

Overall, Buzz was an above average coach. He benefited by finding some amazing under the radar talent, that turned into all big-east and NBA levels, at the JC level, but really struggled finding and developing 4-year talent. When he was at MU, especially in the beginning, he excelled at game planning/prep before the game/season, but still was learning and needed to learn in game adjustments. If he had stayed, and couldn't access the JC-level like he likes, he would have likely had MU at constant mediocrity, possibly underperforming what Wojo did, depending on how he adapted to not accessing JC players.

Now, Wojo. He's still learning how to run a program long-term. I think he gets a bit of a bad rap on here. People focus on the end of season collapses, and neglect the fact that prior to them, he had the teams performing above their talent level. He struggles with in season adjustments, and adapting the program plan to the teams strengths. I'm not certain he is the best option long term, but think it would be a mistake to move on now.

If Carton, Lewis, and Garcia all return, we might have a really strong team next here. Especially if we can pick up a impact transfer. Give him 1 more year, in my opinion, and then re-evaluate.

I wasn't on this board at that time, but comparing Buzz success at MUBB vs Wojo success at MUBB is apples to oranges because one was/has been signficantly more successful than the other.

You slide in some interesting little comments here and there that are of interest to me.

I don't think many people here would agree that Wojo gets his players/team performing above their talent level. If anything I daily read the opposite here. But, I will play along a second, ...and say I don't believe MUBB talent level recruiting has been as good as some think it has been under Wojo. But, who's job is it to recruit? Wojo. Part of coaching, part of running a program is recruiting. So, it counts against Wojo either way.

You have mentioned Buzz and the bubble multiple times. Buzz was at MUBB six seasons. His teams made the NCAA's 5 of 6 seasons. And his teams finished top 5 or better in a tougher league, four of those six seasons. He won the Regular Season Big East Title in his 2nd last season at MUBB. (Wojo has finished top 5 in the current league version twice in 7 seasons)

1st season NCAA 6 seed.
2nd season NCAA 6 seed.
3rd season NCAA 11 seed.
4th season NCAA 3 seed.
5th season NCAA 3 seed.

I don't see a lot of bubble teams here.I find it difficult to believe that many level headed people here didn't find these results acceptable, or good.

All of this and we haven't even discussed post season results comparison yet.

[Scoop Snoop]

I'm not posting on my standards for either.

I'm posting based on the standards people on this board are applying. You may not remember it, but Buzz was often berated on here for not being able to make adjustments in the 2nd half, and others calling for him to be removed when we were in constant bubble talk, then the same people claiming he was the next Al when he wins a big game. Wojo's first 2 years here were better than Buzz's first 2-years at TAMU, and people were already calling him a mistake and that he should be removed.

I'm not going to relitigate the cupboard Buzz left or would have had going into Wojo's first year. It is futile.

Now, if you want my personal opinions.

Overall, Buzz was an above average coach. He benefited by finding some amazing under the radar talent, that turned into all big-east and NBA levels, at the JC level, but really struggled finding and developing 4-year talent. When he was at MU, especially in the beginning, he excelled at game planning/prep before the game/season, but still was learning and needed to learn in game adjustments. If he had stayed, and couldn't access the JC-level like he likes, he would have likely had MU at constant mediocrity, possibly underperforming what Wojo did, depending on how he adapted to not accessing JC players.

Now, Wojo. He's still learning how to run a program long-term. I think he gets a bit of a bad rap on here. People focus on the end of season collapses, and neglect the fact that prior to them, he had the teams performing above their talent level. He struggles with in season adjustments, and adapting the program plan to the teams strengths. I'm not certain he is the best option long term, but think it would be a mistake to move on now.

If Carton, Lewis, and Garcia all return, we might have a really strong team next here. Especially if we can pick up a impact transfer. Give him 1 more year, in my opinion, and then re-evaluate.

1) Buzz and mediocrity- Then please explain his success at VT.

2) "Still learning...." So 8 years to judge?

3) "Bad rap". The three 1-6 collapses (he scratched this year's 1-6 collapse off his to-do list early) are legitimate reasons to criticize him.

4) I agree that with "struggles". That's a very good way to sum it up.

No disrespect intended- I get that you are presenting another side of Buzz and Wojo and you did clearly state these were your "personal opinions" but mine are very different.