For those of you eager for U of Dayton bbal to become part of the Big East

[MUBillsTil2017]

There is this:  http://www.laxpower.com/laxnews/news.php?story=35878

Dayton adding a new D1 sport, women's lacrosse. 
Since Dayton has been open about wanting an invite to the BE for basketball, rounding out their athletic teams to fit better within the BE can't hurt.  The BE has just 3 women's lax teams, Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette, not enough to get an auto bid for the NCAA tourny, so Dayton might be thinking this move helps just a little bit with their courtship of the BE.

[🏀]

No.

[Coleman]

[🏀]

+1

[tower912]

Bring on the Flyers!

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

I don't think that the BE needs to expand, but if it does I bet they balance out the east and the midwest.  My guess is SLU and some sort of eastern school.  Richmond...whatever.

[Tugg Speedman]

Dayton's entry into the BE is not for us to decide, it's for Xavier to allow.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

Dayton's entry into the BE is not for us to decide, it's for Xavier to allow.

You think if 9 BE members want Dayton in that Xavier has veto power? 

[Tugg Speedman]

You think if 9 BE members want Dayton in that Xavier has veto power? 

X and Dayton are essentially the same TV market.  If X says to the rest that Dayton hurts them, they will listen and respect it. (similar to DePaul having veto power over Loyola Chicago, or MU having veto power over UWM)

Otherwise, Dayton needs to achieve a top 10 ranking and/or E8 to make them so attractive to the rest of the BE that they will look past X's objections.  That's not happening.

St. Louis and/or Richmond are more likely as next in over Dayton.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

X and Dayton are essentially the same TV market.  If X says to the rest that Dayton hurts them, they will listen and respect it. (similar to DePaul having veto power over Loyola Chicago, or MU having veto power over UWM)

Otherwise, Dayton needs to achieve a top 10 ranking and/or E8 to make them so attractive to the rest of the BE that they will look past X's objections.  That's not happening.

St. Louis and/or Richmond are more likely as next in over Dayton.

Way to back off your original point.  Didn't think anyone could concede that quickly.

[Tugg Speedman]

Way to back off your original point.  Didn't think anyone could concede that quickly.

Wrong, I perfectly explained why Dayton's entry into the BE is not for us to decide, it's for Xavier to allow.  Try reading it slowly this time.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

Wrong, I perfectly explained why Dayton's entry into the BE is not for us to decide, it's for Xavier to allow.  Try reading it slowly this time.

When you say "for Xavier to allow," that implies that they have some sort of veto-power over Dayton.  This is false.  If 9 members want Dayton, and Xavier doesn't, Dayton gets admitted.  Period. 

Then you trotted out this more "nuanced" view of similar TV markets, "listening and respecting," etc.  Blah, blah, blah.

You're initial statement is false.  Your follow up is more likely.  Simple logic my friend.

[Coleman]

When you say "for Xavier to allow," that implies that they have some sort of veto-power over Dayton.  This is false.  If 9 members want Dayton, and Xavier doesn't, Dayton gets admitted.  Period. 

Then you trotted out this more "nuanced" view of similar TV markets, "listening and respecting," etc.  Blah, blah, blah.

You're initial statement is false.  Your follow up is more likely.  Simple logic my friend.

To be fair, there is something to the Xavier argument. I am not sure it is an absolute "veto" but their opinion on this really does matter. Its the same reason it would be incredibly difficult for the Big East to bring in St. Josephs (Villanova would not like it). The reality is probably somewhere between your stance and that of AnotherMU84's.

I suspect more Big East ADs would be opposed to Dayton joining because of their lackluster performance on the court. Sure, if they strung together a few Final Fours that might change, but as it stands now I'd say Dayton has little chance because of their performance and their proximity to Xavier. You can't write either off as a non-factor.

Personally I believe the Big East could do much better. Its not a great market, the Big East already have a team nearby, they haven't had a whole lot of success recently, etc.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

To be fair, there is something to the Xavier argument. I am not sure it is an absolute "veto" but their opinion on this really does matter. Its the same reason it would be incredibly difficult for the Big East to bring in St. Josephs (Villanova would not like it). The reality is probably somewhere between your stance and that of AnotherMU84's.

I suspect more Big East ADs would be opposed to Dayton joining because of their lackluster performance on the court. Sure, if they strung together a few Final Fours that might change, but as it stands now I'd say Dayton has little chance because of their performance and their proximity to Xavier. You can't write either off as a non-factor.

Personally I believe the Big East could do much better. Its not a great market, the Big East already have a team nearby, they haven't had a whole lot of success recently, etc.

I think Dayton would be a terrible addition myself for many of the reasons stated.  But Another is way overstating Xavier's power within the conference.

[Tugg Speedman]

I think Dayton would be a terrible addition myself for many of the reasons stated.  But the final call isn't Xavier's.  

I agree Dayton would not be that good an addition, because they are not that good.  Until they get good (top 10 ranking, E8), X gets a veto.  Get good enough and they can over-ride that veto.

Along these lines ...
Depaul gets a veto on Loyola Ill
Nova gets a veto on St. Joes
MU gets a veto on UWM
GU gets a veto on GW
and so on

This means none of them are getting in unless/until they get really good and can over-ride that veto.

[Coleman]

I agree Dayton would not be that good an addition, because they are not that good.  Until they get good (top 10 ranking, E8), X gets a veto.  Get good enough and they can over-ride that veto.

Along these lines ...
Depaul gets a veto on Loyola Ill
Nova gets a veto on St. Joes
MU gets a veto on UWM
GU gets a veto on GW
and so on

This means none of them are getting in unless/until they get really good and can over-ride that veto.

I honestly don't think UWM or GW would EVER get into the Big East, under any circumstances. For Loyola and St. Joes, it would take nothing short of multiple Final Four runs.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

I agree Dayton would not be that good an addition, because they are not that good.  Until they get good (top 10 ranking, E8), X gets a veto.  Get good enough and they can over-ride that veto.

Along these lines ...
Depaul gets a veto on Loyola Ill
Nova gets a veto on St. Joes
MU gets a veto on UWM
GU gets a veto on GW
and so on

But these aren't apples to apples.

DePaul and Loyola, Nova and St. Joes, MU and UWM, GU and GW...  All those schools are in the same metropolitan area and the same media markets.  Furthermore, one of those schools is clearly the "alpha dog" when it comes to college basketball.

Xavier and Dayton, while only about 60 miles apart, are in separate statistical areas and separate media markets.  Furthermore, while Xavier clearly has been the better school recently, Dayton has been to a Final 4 (Xavier hasn't) and they've both been to the same number of Elite 8s.

All that being said, I don't want Dayton in the NBE anyway, but your parallels aren't good ones.

[brewcity77]

X and Dayton are essentially the same TV market.

Yeah...except they're not. According to Nielsen, they're actually two completely different markets. Dayton has its own NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox, and CW stations independent of the stations in Cincinnati. Cincy ranks #34 in size and Dayton #64, with both markets accounting for well over 400,000 individual TV homes. Yes, some stations from Cincy can be found in the Dayton market depending on reception and they share some AM radio stations, but I listen to the Score 670 in Milwaukee, so what's that count for?

My simple question for people against Dayton if we expand again is who do you want? What two teams are a better fit? They outdraw 8/10 Big East teams in attendance, would get us immediate attention every year as host of the First Four, and more often than not are a top-100 RPI team. I'm not saying they're the no-brainer that Xavier was, but long term, you could argue they have more upside (especially in terms of financial clout) than Butler without Stevens.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

My simple question for people against Dayton if we expand again is who do you want?

If we are limiting this discussion to private schools that don't play FBS football, then SLU and Dayton are probably the choices if the BE *had* to expand.  Although Richmond instead of Dayton wouldn't bother me.

However I would rather pick up VCU if non-football public universities were an option.  (And I don't know why they aren't.)

[Coleman]

My simple question for people against Dayton if we expand again is who do you want? What two teams are a better fit?

Gonzaga, VCU, SLU. In that order. If Gonzaga is a no-go because of geography, then the other two.  

Honestly though, my preference would be to add no one right now. Wait 3 or 4 years. See if someone else rises to the top in the other non-football conferences (such as the A-10 or MVC), then try to poach them. If Dayton is one of those teams that rises to the top, then so be it. But they need to earn it and they haven't done that yet. Run the A-10 and MVC like minor leagues. And in the off-chance a Memphis, Cincinnati or UConn decides to drop FBS football, add them then.

The obvious X-factor is if FS1 demands the Big East to add teams. Then you have to do something. If they want us to go to 14, then Dayton would probably be my "last team in."

[77ncaachamps]

Gonzaga would be a great fit EXCEPT distance.
To me, that cost is tremendous.

[brewcity77]

Gonzaga's a non-starter or they'd have been in the discussion longer the first time around. No sense in even mentioning them.

[Coleman]

Gonzaga's a non-starter or they'd have been in the discussion longer the first time around. No sense in even mentioning them.

Even IF that's true (I disagree with your above premise, I think the league wanted to get the logistically "easy" teams in first to begin play as soon as possible, then deal with the Gonzaga issue after the league was established)...I still provided two teams who are easily a better fit than Dayton.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

Even IF that's true (I disagree with your above premise, I think the league wanted to get the logistically "easy" teams in first to begin play as soon as possible, then deal with the Gonzaga issue after the league was established)...I still provided two teams who are easily a better fit than Dayton.

VCU is the better basketball program.  But it doesn't "fit" any better than Dayton does.

[Coleman]

VCU is the better basketball program.  But it doesn't "fit" any better than Dayton does.

The better basketball program is the better fit. Period.