MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: MUBillsTil2017 on July 26, 2013, 01:49:33 PM
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There is this: http://www.laxpower.com/laxnews/news.php?story=35878
Dayton adding a new D1 sport, women's lacrosse.
Since Dayton has been open about wanting an invite to the BE for basketball, rounding out their athletic teams to fit better within the BE can't hurt. The BE has just 3 women's lax teams, Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette, not enough to get an auto bid for the NCAA tourny, so Dayton might be thinking this move helps just a little bit with their courtship of the BE.
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No.
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(http://25.media.tumblr.com/a64e2caf424e2230b3244204dfc2261a/tumblr_mongd7RL3K1rlqxudo1_250.gif)
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(http://25.media.tumblr.com/a64e2caf424e2230b3244204dfc2261a/tumblr_mongd7RL3K1rlqxudo1_250.gif)
+1
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Bring on the Flyers!
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I don't think that the BE needs to expand, but if it does I bet they balance out the east and the midwest. My guess is SLU and some sort of eastern school. Richmond...whatever.
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Dayton's entry into the BE is not for us to decide, it's for Xavier to allow.
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Dayton's entry into the BE is not for us to decide, it's for Xavier to allow.
You think if 9 BE members want Dayton in that Xavier has veto power?
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You think if 9 BE members want Dayton in that Xavier has veto power?
X and Dayton are essentially the same TV market. If X says to the rest that Dayton hurts them, they will listen and respect it. (similar to DePaul having veto power over Loyola Chicago, or MU having veto power over UWM)
Otherwise, Dayton needs to achieve a top 10 ranking and/or E8 to make them so attractive to the rest of the BE that they will look past X's objections. That's not happening.
St. Louis and/or Richmond are more likely as next in over Dayton.
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X and Dayton are essentially the same TV market. If X says to the rest that Dayton hurts them, they will listen and respect it. (similar to DePaul having veto power over Loyola Chicago, or MU having veto power over UWM)
Otherwise, Dayton needs to achieve a top 10 ranking and/or E8 to make them so attractive to the rest of the BE that they will look past X's objections. That's not happening.
St. Louis and/or Richmond are more likely as next in over Dayton.
Way to back off your original point. Didn't think anyone could concede that quickly.
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Way to back off your original point. Didn't think anyone could concede that quickly.
Wrong, I perfectly explained why Dayton's entry into the BE is not for us to decide, it's for Xavier to allow. Try reading it slowly this time.
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Wrong, I perfectly explained why Dayton's entry into the BE is not for us to decide, it's for Xavier to allow. Try reading it slowly this time.
When you say "for Xavier to allow," that implies that they have some sort of veto-power over Dayton. This is false. If 9 members want Dayton, and Xavier doesn't, Dayton gets admitted. Period.
Then you trotted out this more "nuanced" view of similar TV markets, "listening and respecting," etc. Blah, blah, blah.
You're initial statement is false. Your follow up is more likely. Simple logic my friend.
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When you say "for Xavier to allow," that implies that they have some sort of veto-power over Dayton. This is false. If 9 members want Dayton, and Xavier doesn't, Dayton gets admitted. Period.
Then you trotted out this more "nuanced" view of similar TV markets, "listening and respecting," etc. Blah, blah, blah.
You're initial statement is false. Your follow up is more likely. Simple logic my friend.
To be fair, there is something to the Xavier argument. I am not sure it is an absolute "veto" but their opinion on this really does matter. Its the same reason it would be incredibly difficult for the Big East to bring in St. Josephs (Villanova would not like it). The reality is probably somewhere between your stance and that of AnotherMU84's.
I suspect more Big East ADs would be opposed to Dayton joining because of their lackluster performance on the court. Sure, if they strung together a few Final Fours that might change, but as it stands now I'd say Dayton has little chance because of their performance and their proximity to Xavier. You can't write either off as a non-factor.
Personally I believe the Big East could do much better. Its not a great market, the Big East already have a team nearby, they haven't had a whole lot of success recently, etc.
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To be fair, there is something to the Xavier argument. I am not sure it is an absolute "veto" but their opinion on this really does matter. Its the same reason it would be incredibly difficult for the Big East to bring in St. Josephs (Villanova would not like it). The reality is probably somewhere between your stance and that of AnotherMU84's.
I suspect more Big East ADs would be opposed to Dayton joining because of their lackluster performance on the court. Sure, if they strung together a few Final Fours that might change, but as it stands now I'd say Dayton has little chance because of their performance and their proximity to Xavier. You can't write either off as a non-factor.
Personally I believe the Big East could do much better. Its not a great market, the Big East already have a team nearby, they haven't had a whole lot of success recently, etc.
I think Dayton would be a terrible addition myself for many of the reasons stated. But Another is way overstating Xavier's power within the conference.
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I think Dayton would be a terrible addition myself for many of the reasons stated. But the final call isn't Xavier's.
I agree Dayton would not be that good an addition, because they are not that good. Until they get good (top 10 ranking, E8), X gets a veto. Get good enough and they can over-ride that veto.
Along these lines ...
Depaul gets a veto on Loyola Ill
Nova gets a veto on St. Joes
MU gets a veto on UWM
GU gets a veto on GW
and so on
This means none of them are getting in unless/until they get really good and can over-ride that veto.
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I agree Dayton would not be that good an addition, because they are not that good. Until they get good (top 10 ranking, E8), X gets a veto. Get good enough and they can over-ride that veto.
Along these lines ...
Depaul gets a veto on Loyola Ill
Nova gets a veto on St. Joes
MU gets a veto on UWM
GU gets a veto on GW
and so on
This means none of them are getting in unless/until they get really good and can over-ride that veto.
I honestly don't think UWM or GW would EVER get into the Big East, under any circumstances. For Loyola and St. Joes, it would take nothing short of multiple Final Four runs.
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I agree Dayton would not be that good an addition, because they are not that good. Until they get good (top 10 ranking, E8), X gets a veto. Get good enough and they can over-ride that veto.
Along these lines ...
Depaul gets a veto on Loyola Ill
Nova gets a veto on St. Joes
MU gets a veto on UWM
GU gets a veto on GW
and so on
But these aren't apples to apples.
DePaul and Loyola, Nova and St. Joes, MU and UWM, GU and GW... All those schools are in the same metropolitan area and the same media markets. Furthermore, one of those schools is clearly the "alpha dog" when it comes to college basketball.
Xavier and Dayton, while only about 60 miles apart, are in separate statistical areas and separate media markets. Furthermore, while Xavier clearly has been the better school recently, Dayton has been to a Final 4 (Xavier hasn't) and they've both been to the same number of Elite 8s.
All that being said, I don't want Dayton in the NBE anyway, but your parallels aren't good ones.
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X and Dayton are essentially the same TV market.
Yeah...except they're not. According to Nielsen, they're actually two completely different markets. Dayton has its own NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox, and CW stations independent of the stations in Cincinnati. Cincy ranks #34 in size and Dayton #64, with both markets accounting for well over 400,000 individual TV homes. Yes, some stations from Cincy can be found in the Dayton market depending on reception and they share some AM radio stations, but I listen to the Score 670 in Milwaukee, so what's that count for?
My simple question for people against Dayton if we expand again is who do you want? What two teams are a better fit? They outdraw 8/10 Big East teams in attendance, would get us immediate attention every year as host of the First Four, and more often than not are a top-100 RPI team. I'm not saying they're the no-brainer that Xavier was, but long term, you could argue they have more upside (especially in terms of financial clout) than Butler without Stevens.
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My simple question for people against Dayton if we expand again is who do you want?
If we are limiting this discussion to private schools that don't play FBS football, then SLU and Dayton are probably the choices if the BE *had* to expand. Although Richmond instead of Dayton wouldn't bother me.
However I would rather pick up VCU if non-football public universities were an option. (And I don't know why they aren't.)
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My simple question for people against Dayton if we expand again is who do you want? What two teams are a better fit?
Gonzaga, VCU, SLU. In that order. If Gonzaga is a no-go because of geography, then the other two.
Honestly though, my preference would be to add no one right now. Wait 3 or 4 years. See if someone else rises to the top in the other non-football conferences (such as the A-10 or MVC), then try to poach them. If Dayton is one of those teams that rises to the top, then so be it. But they need to earn it and they haven't done that yet. Run the A-10 and MVC like minor leagues. And in the off-chance a Memphis, Cincinnati or UConn decides to drop FBS football, add them then.
The obvious X-factor is if FS1 demands the Big East to add teams. Then you have to do something. If they want us to go to 14, then Dayton would probably be my "last team in."
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Gonzaga would be a great fit EXCEPT distance.
To me, that cost is tremendous.
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Gonzaga's a non-starter or they'd have been in the discussion longer the first time around. No sense in even mentioning them.
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Gonzaga's a non-starter or they'd have been in the discussion longer the first time around. No sense in even mentioning them.
Even IF that's true (I disagree with your above premise, I think the league wanted to get the logistically "easy" teams in first to begin play as soon as possible, then deal with the Gonzaga issue after the league was established)...I still provided two teams who are easily a better fit than Dayton.
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Even IF that's true (I disagree with your above premise, I think the league wanted to get the logistically "easy" teams in first to begin play as soon as possible, then deal with the Gonzaga issue after the league was established)...I still provided two teams who are easily a better fit than Dayton.
VCU is the better basketball program. But it doesn't "fit" any better than Dayton does.
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VCU is the better basketball program. But it doesn't "fit" any better than Dayton does.
The better basketball program is the better fit. Period.
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The better basketball program is the better fit. Period.
Not to break this down over the definition of "fit," but I disagree with this.
Kentucky and Kansas would be terrible "fits" in this conference.
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Not to break this down over the definition of "fit," but I disagree with this.
Kentucky and Kansas would be terrible "fits" in this conference.
And because they have football, I would agree with you. I'm not sure I see the relevence of your point when it comes to Dayton vs. VCU.
My point is that a non-football school with the best basketball program is the best fit. Everything else (public, private, catholic, even geography) is secondary. That's what this conference needs to be about if it wants to compete.
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The Flyers probably have around 5 years to get their house in order and make a strong case to be included in the BEast 2.0. I hope they are able to pull it off. But, if they haven't made progress by the time the league is ready to expand, it is their own fault and others will be invited.
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There is this: http://www.laxpower.com/laxnews/news.php?story=35878
Dayton adding a new D1 sport, women's lacrosse.
Since Dayton has been open about wanting an invite to the BE for basketball, rounding out their athletic teams to fit better within the BE can't hurt. The BE has just 3 women's lax teams, Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette, not enough to get an auto bid for the NCAA tourny, so Dayton might be thinking this move helps just a little bit with their courtship of the BE.
The Big East is going to continue to house the teams from the AAC.
http://www.vuhoops.com/big-east/2013/5/1/4290556/temple-rutgers-join-new-big-east-lacrosse-field-hockey
For next spring, that means an eight team league, for 2015 it'll be a six team league with Rutgers and Louisville leaving the AAC.
Unless the rest of the AAC suddenly starts adding lacrosse, this arrangement will suit everyone involved. And I'm sure that the lacrosse schools in the Big East would prefer that the existing membership add the sport before expansion of the total membership.
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The Big East is going to continue to house the teams from the AAC.
http://www.vuhoops.com/big-east/2013/5/1/4290556/temple-rutgers-join-new-big-east-lacrosse-field-hockey
For next spring, that means an eight team league, for 2015 it'll be a six team league with Rutgers and Louisville leaving the AAC.
Unless the rest of the AAC suddenly starts adding lacrosse, this arrangement will suit everyone involved. And I'm sure that the lacrosse schools in the Big East would prefer that the existing membership add the sport before expansion of the total membership.
Right, the AAC joined up with the BE for some of the non-rev sports to enable the sport to remain eligible for the auto qualifier for the NCAA's. Associate membership seems all the rage now to fill out conferences. If I'm over at the President's chair at UofD, I'm looking down the road and seeing nothing but upheaval for the mid tier 4 year colleges in terms of enrollment and athletics. How best to join what looks like a stable, well funded, athletic conference? Add a sport(s) that is in short supply at the BE, especially if it suits Title IX requirements. I grew up not far from Dayton and I never knew it was a Catholic school until the BE explosion took place. I think its problem with the BE isn't so much basketball, its the low desirability of the school and the town for promising high school seniors.
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I know this has been posted before, but
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ1cwq8-SBQ
You're welcome.
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Even IF that's true (I disagree with your above premise, I think the league wanted to get the logistically "easy" teams in first to begin play as soon as possible, then deal with the Gonzaga issue after the league was established)...I still provided two teams who are easily a better fit than Dayton.
Gonzaga has been belabored to death on here. Financially, travel-wise, it's just not viable.
Better fits however does not equal simply better basketball if you look at the make-up of the league. Currently all private, mostly Catholic, all with religious roots. Dayton and SLU also fit that mold. Richmond is closer to fitting it than VCU. I could go with Richmond, but VCU, as attractive as they are (and personally, I'd take them over anyone else out there if it were up to me) look like a school that won't be allowed in.
When it comes to the mission of the school, geography, and the athletic programs, St. Louis and Dayton are the two best fits. That doesn't mean they are necessarily my favorite choices, but they are undoubtedly better fits than VCU, Richmond, or anyone on the left coast.
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Gonzaga has been belabored to death on here. Financially, travel-wise, it's just not viable.
Better fits however does not equal simply better basketball if you look at the make-up of the league. Currently all private, mostly Catholic, all with religious roots. Dayton and SLU also fit that mold. Richmond is closer to fitting it than VCU. I could go with Richmond, but VCU, as attractive as they are (and personally, I'd take them over anyone else out there if it were up to me) look like a school that won't be allowed in.
When it comes to the mission of the school, geography, and the athletic programs, St. Louis and Dayton are the two best fits. That doesn't mean they are necessarily my favorite choices, but they are undoubtedly better fits than VCU, Richmond, or anyone on the left coast.
While you may in fact be correct from the perspective of the university presidents making the decisions, my argument is that it shouldn't be like this. It should be about fielding the most competitive basketball (and, secondarily, other sports) conference in the country. And that's it.
People seem to want it both ways. They want to have a huge TV contract and great media exposure, top billing, respect from ESPN, and be known as a power conference, but keep a private, religious, east-coast/midwest school identity that requires inviting the likes of Dayton and Richmond (Hint, that's been done, and it was called the A-10), when MUCH better programs (VCU, Gonzaga, etc.) are out there if you get rid of these nonsense requirements. You can't have both. We won't be getting 6+ bids every year when we have Dayton in our conference. Just remember that when you are complaining in 5 years that the Big East only got 3 bids. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
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Yes, it would be nice to have Gonzaga purely from a basketball perspective. But everything else must be considered. No way around it.