MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tugg Speedman on December 04, 2016, 03:05:14 PM
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Two questions ...
1) Was this Heldt best game at MU? I thought so since it was a road game, close and better than "buy" competition?
2) Are we seeing the emergence of Heldt as a serviceable big man for this team? That is someone you don't wince every-time he comes in for Fisher?
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I was telling people I was watching with that I think this was his best game. Got a number of rebounds and played good defense. I think he will lessen the risk of Luke foul trouble in Big East play. At least to bridge the gap at the end of the first half or stretches in the second.
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This is the start of us(Fans) seeing the Greening of Matt.
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Matt is exactly on schedule for a 3 star big. He can contribute. There are still going to be games where he plays poorly. But he progresses nicely.
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Matt is better defensively than Luke as he is quicker. Good adjustment by Wojo to start Matt in the 2nd while double downing the post. UGA not prepared for that and it saved Luke.
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Matt is better defensively than Luke as he is quicker. Good adjustment by Wojo to start Matt in the 2nd while double downing the post. UGA not prepared for that and it saved Luke.
Yep, Yep and Yep
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I saw a much better game out of Matt, great to see!
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Matt is better defensively than Luke as he is quicker. Good adjustment by Wojo to start Matt in the 2nd while double downing the post. UGA not prepared for that and it saved Luke.
He started matt because luke had 3 fouls
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Except for that early game where Matt got called for like 4 fouls (mostly screens on the offensive end), he's played solid and improving ball all season. Certainly like his D and I think he's becoming a decent rebounder. Also does a good job putting the garbage buckets back in.
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He started matt because luke had 3 fouls
As I stated. He also made the decision to double down on Maten, who Matt held scoreless from the field. And he started Sam with three fouls. Seems like Wojo deserves some credit, ai-na?
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As I stated. He also made the decision to double down on Maten, who Matt held scoreless from his he field. And he started Sam with three fouls. Seems like Wojo deserves some credit, ai-na?
He deserves credit for sitting out starting big man with 3 fouls
After he already stupidly brought him in with 2 fouls before an immediate 3rd foul in the 1st half?
Yeah, let's applaud him for doing the obvious.
Sitting a guy with 3 fouls and doubling the only guy we couldn't stop at all
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I think Matt will be a very good 4 year player for Marquette. Love his attitude and energy. Excellent team player.
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He deserves credit for sitting out starting big man with 3 fouls
After he already stupidly brought him in with 2 fouls before an immediate 3rd foul in the 1st half?
Yeah, let's applaud him for doing the obvious.
Sitting a guy with 3 fouls and doubling the only guy we couldn't stop at all
So Wojo made the easy adjustments...got it.
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Keeping Luke and Sam in the game with 2 fouls in the first half was questionable — but not unheard of. I do think Wojo deserves credit for managing the lineup throughout the game. We kept throwing different fresh players out there and at times looked like we were running circles around Georgia. The Bulldogs looked increasingly ragged chasing players on the perimeter and defending threes.
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So Wojo made the easy adjustments...got it.
Thats actually the issue, you don't got it.
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Keeping Luke and Sam in the game with 2 fouls in the first half was questionable — but not unheard of. I do think Wojo deserves credit for managing the lineup throughout the game. We kept throwing different fresh players out there and at times looked like we were running circles around Georgia. The Bulldogs looked increasingly ragged chasing players on the perimeter and defending threes.
Yes good point.
But to applaud sitting your lone proven big man with 3 fouls to start the second half as good coaching...is mental.
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I'd also give Wojo credit for settling the team down when Georgia made runs. After the Bulldogs got within 2 in the second half at 72-70, Marquette came out of the timeout and scored 11 straight unanswered points. I wasn't in the huddle, of course — but that shows all the signs of good coaching.
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Thought this thread was going to be about Proactive.
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Matt posted a season-high 7 rebounds in 16 tough minutes against quality big men. In just 8 games, he's already exceeded his minutes played, points and rebounding totals for all of last season.
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Listen. Our defense sucked. We shot lights out. Unlike VERY TALL Mich and Pitt teams, these guys were similar to us. And we shot better, got some rebounds. #donedeal.
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So Wojo made the easy adjustments...got it.
LOL!
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Listen. Our defense sucked. We shot lights out. Unlike VERY TALL Mich and Pitt teams, these guys were similar to us. And we shot better, got some rebounds. #donedeal.
This is true. Our defense was still not very good. Lots of wide open shots available.
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Listen. Our defense sucked. We shot lights out. Unlike VERY TALL Mich and Pitt teams, these guys were similar to us. And we shot better, got some rebounds. #donedeal.
Agreed. We also had waaaay too many turnovers in the first half. We should have been blogging in spansh by the second half.
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Agreed. We also had waaaay too many turnovers in the first half. We should have been blogging in spansh by the second half.
Si
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He deserves credit for sitting out starting big man with 3 fouls
After he already stupidly brought him in with 2 fouls before an immediate 3rd foul in the 1st half?
Yeah, let's applaud him for doing the obvious.
Sitting a guy with 3 fouls and doubling the only guy we couldn't stop at all
5K wasted posts, hey?
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Listen. Our defense sucked. We shot lights out. Unlike VERY TALL Mich and Pitt teams, these guys were similar to us. And we shot better, got some rebounds. #donedeal.
Thanks for contributing to the Matt Heldt thread!
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Listen. Our defense sucked. We shot lights out. Unlike VERY TALL Mich and Pitt teams, these guys were similar to us. And we shot better, got some rebounds. #donedeal.
As a stat, that a Win
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Going into the season I felt our key player was Matt. if he could give us 12-15 minutes of Big East level play we would be in good shape. Today was a step in that direction.
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He had some big rebounds and scored the ball decently
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Going into the season I felt our key player was Matt. if he could give us 12-15 minutes of Big East level play we would be in good shape. Today was a step in that direction.
Ummm What??
You didn't make a "Matt heldt........" thread.
But you made Hauser, JJJ, and Duane (I believe) threads.
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I'd also give Wojo credit for settling the team down when Georgia made runs. After the Bulldogs got within 2 in the second half at 72-70, Marquette came out of the timeout and scored 11 straight unanswered points. I wasn't in the huddle, of course — but that shows all the signs of good coaching.
Careful. Giving credit to Wojo is regarded as evil by some here.
I didn't mind him bringing back Luke and Sam with 2 fouls each. I thought Wojo had an excellent game, including motivating JJJ at halftime and getting the entire team to re-focus after Georgia cut it to 2 in the second half.
My only beef wasn't that Luke was in the game with 2 fouls but that he was asked to hedge on defense and got called for No. 3 about 25 feet from the basket. It was unnecessarily putting him at risk.
Nice job by Matt to make Luke less missed during his time on the bench. I happened to be sitting right in front of Matt's aunt and cousin in Section QQ. They were very proud of their guy! And I had a blast cheering on The Gold!!!
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Ummm What??
You didn't make a "Matt heldt........" thread.
But you made Hauser, JJJ, and Duane (I believe) threads.
I deliberately did not make a JJJ breakout season thread.
Just Duane , Haanif, Sam and Luke. I responded in several threads and polls about key players with my position on Matt being able to give us 12-15 minutes.
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5K wasted posts, hey?
Being right is a privledge, hey?
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Maybe if he got a little, he wouldn't be breakin' out, hey?
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He deserves credit for sitting out starting big man with 3 fouls
After he already stupidly brought him in with 2 fouls before an immediate 3rd foul in the 1st half?
Yeah, let's applaud him for doing the obvious.
Sitting a guy with 3 fouls and doubling the only guy we couldn't stop at all
I think he thought Luke would be smart enough not to get a foul so far away from the basket.
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Matt is better defensively than Luke as he is quicker. Good adjustment by Wojo to start Matt in the 2nd while double downing the post. UGA not prepared for that and it saved Luke.
Matt doesn't appear to be quicker running back to the other end.
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Wasn't Matt "coached' by Brian Butch before he came to MU? Could Matt be our Kaminsky?
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Matt is not going to be an All-American first round draft pick. IMO, Matt's ceiling is a 12/7 center. Solid, workmanlike, good hands, does all the stuff he is supposed to. In other words, the kind of project big that eventually pans out that neither Crean nor Buzz could land.
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Matt is not going to be an All-American first round draft pick. IMO, Matt's ceiling is a 12/7 center. Solid, workmanlike, good hands, does all the stuff he is supposed to. In other words, the kind of project big that eventually pans out that neither Crean nor Buzz could land.
Wasn't Kaminsky a "project" and not highly recruited? Just asking why Frank blossomed and why you think Matt will not?
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/36592
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Wasn't Matt "coached' by Brian Butch before he came to MU? Could Matt be our Kaminsky?
Kaminsky was a three-star center that did not play his freshman year, save some mop up duty and got some back up minutes his sophomore year. Then exploded on the scene his junior year and was National Player Of The Year (NPoY) his senior year.
In the history of college basketball no one has ever come close to doing what Kaminsky has done. That is he not only had the worst Frehman and Sophomore stats for a NPoY, it is not even close. Every other NPoY was a starter and probably their teams best player their Freshman and Sophomore years.
Their will never be another Kaminsky as he is that unique. A black swan.
Think of it this way. You have a friend that wins a $100 million Powerball. Would you then ask them to buy you Powerball tickets because they can do it again? Kaminsky was Bucky winning a Powerball. Do not expect it to ever happen again.
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What heidelberg said, but with less hyperbole. Frank the Tank was the outlier. For your own sanity, assume Matt's trajectory is going to be normal.
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Matt is not going to be an All-American first round draft pick. IMO, Matt's ceiling is a 12/7 center. Solid, workmanlike, good hands, does all the stuff he is supposed to. In other words, the kind of project big that eventually pans out that neither Crean nor Buzz could land.
I am not sure Matts ceiling is that high, it will be hard for him to stay out of foul trouble. He could have used a red-shirt year to improve his coordination. I see him
as a back-up his whole career. Does not have the finesse or quickness to play with the athletic big man. John and Matt will split time next year, only because that is
all MU has. Every team needs a Matt Heldt, probably an overachiever, hustles like crazy. Glad to have him. I look at Tom Copa and Jarred Lovetter type of player, both
could knock down an outside shot, need Matt to do that as well.
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Copa could knock down an outside shot? Really? I watched him for 3 years. One of us is having hallucinatory memories regarding his shooting ability.
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Wasn't Kaminsky a "project" and not highly recruited? Just asking why Frank blossomed and why you think Matt will not?
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/36592
He was a project, but he did have the ability to hit 3s consistently and was a pretty good passer/ball handler for a kid that size in high school. His big jump came with his athleticism as he got more coordinated and was better able to utilize the basketball skills that he already possessed. The ability to drive some and use multiple post moves rather than just shoot spot up 3s was huge for him. He really came along at the right time with the game all about spacing now and being able to stretch the floor.
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Copa could knock down an outside shot? Really? I watched him for 3 years. One of us is having hallucinatory memories regarding his shooting ability.
Maybe I was dreaming a little, but career wise they averaged between 8 and 10 a game for both, I think you would be happy with that from Matt.
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Wasn't Kaminsky a "project" and not highly recruited? Just asking why Frank blossomed and why you think Matt will not?
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/36592
I do think Kaminsky is an outlier and don't think Matt will explode like that, however I will point out that Matt was regarded as a decent three point shooter in high school. Don't think he's attempted one yet, but I suppose you never know.
The thing with Kaminsky, people try to paint it like he completely came out of nowhere and it was impossible to see him coming. That's simply not true. There were plenty of signs that Frank would be a productive player, however as he played limited minutes his first two years, and especially as we Marquette fans are biased against Wisconsin players (especially awkward backups who look like they were hit in the face with a frying pan too many times as a kid) the tendency is for MU fans to have the hyperbole regarding Frank.
The reality is Frank shot 28.6% and 31.1% from three his first two years. Not lighting the world on fire, but respectable for an underclassman, and that was on 80 attempts. He was getting some run, 7.7 mpg and 10.3 mpg his first two years, but was behind a high-efficiency, inside-outside upperclassman big man in Jared Berggren.
That sophomore year he was actually very good. 122.4 adjusted ORtg (Had he maintained that over enough minutes and matched his senior year usage rate that would have been 3rd in the country). 51.0 eFG%, 17.8% assist rate, 5.2% block percentage. His sophomore year numbers are borderline All-American numbers if he had been able to cut down on fouls so that he could have been a 28 mpg guy, but between the foul issues of youth and playing behind a guy in Berggren who was twice honored on the All-Big Ten team (once honorable, once second team), he didn't get a chance.
I remember talking to a Badger friend in 2013 who was just raving about how good Kaminsky was. Every time I saw her, she would go on about how he should play more, how he was better than Berggren, how Big Frank was going to be the man the next year. I just chuckled and chalked it up to biased fandom. The same kind of fandom that has me looking today at Sam Hauser and seeing echoes of a young Doug McDermott. But it wasn't. There were plenty of signs that Frank would be a great player, our fanbase (myself included) just chose to ignore them. It's not so much that it's surprising he was that good, it's surprising we didn't see it coming.
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Agreed Brew but I think Kaminsky was hit a too FEW times with a frying pan as a child.
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Matt is a good player that will help us win many games.
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Matt is a good player that will help us win many games.
I agree with this analysis.
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Wasn't Kaminsky a "project" and not highly recruited? Just asking why Frank blossomed and why you think Matt will not?
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/36592
The difference. As a freshman in high school Frank was a 6'3" shooting guard. His sophomore year a 6'10" center. Frank learned to play the game as a guard and developed core athleticism as a young player. It took him a while to translate that to his bigger body, but when it did the skill sets and athleticism were all there.
Heldt doesn't have that athleticism and guard background.
He'll never be a Frank Kaminsky. We need him to be the best Matt Heldt he can be (which could be a skilled 4 year true center).
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I do think Kaminsky is an outlier and don't think Matt will explode like that, however I will point out that Matt was regarded as a decent three point shooter in high school. Don't think he's attempted one yet, but I suppose you never know.
I hope he spends sometime in practiceing, b/c lots of 3 pt shooters around to help.
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The difference. As a freshman in high school Frank was a 6'3" shooting guard. His sophomore year a 6'10" center. Frank learned to play the game as a guard and developed core athleticism as a young player. It took him a while to translate that to his bigger body, but when it did the skill sets and athleticism were all there.
Heldt doesn't have that athleticism and guard background.
He'll never be a Frank Kaminsky. We need him to be the best Matt Heldt he can be (which could be a skilled 4 year true center).
Exactly.
I'd be thrilled with 3 pts. / 3 rbs a game this year.
He could be the nominal starter next year, but still probably not get more than 12 - 15 minutes a game. But if he can up his production even a little bit, it will be needed.
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The difference. As a freshman in high school Frank was a 6'3" shooting guard. His sophomore year a 6'10" center. Frank learned to play the game as a guard and developed core athleticism as a young player. It took him a while to translate that to his bigger body, but when it did the skill sets and athleticism were all there.
Heldt doesn't have that athleticism and guard background.
He'll never be a Frank Kaminsky. We need him to be the best Matt Heldt he can be (which could be a skilled 4 year true center).
Interesting, I didn't know that. Similar to Anthony Davis, who went from average prospect to elite with a growth spurt that took him from guard to power forward.
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Copa could knock down an outside shot? Really? I watched him for 3 years. One of us is having hallucinatory memories regarding his shooting ability.
Copa had a decent outside shot from about the ft line in...he fairly consistently knocked down open outside shots from that spot or on either corner of the ft line...that was about it. Decent at the time for a big man but nowhere near what the game has moved to today. I was there from 84-88 and knew Tom a little bit from a mutual friend. He had a monster break out game in the NIT one year against Indiana (I think our only post season play when I was a student) and everyone thought he was going to bust out the next year as even Bobby Knight called out his performance at IU...he had the size but his game regressed...probably as the entire program regressed. I remember after Majerus was replaced by Dukiet, by my senior year, drinking myself into a depressing realization at the MECCA that we probably would not win the WIAC if we were moved to D3. That is why I find the impatience (by some) with Wojo sort of amusing....living through that hell of program decline less than a decade after winning a national championship makes one appreciate where we are today as a program.
Anyway....that being said...I like how Matt is progressing and think he will be a solid, serviceable big for us with the outside chance of surprising us with his upside.
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Copa had a decent outside shot from about the ft line in.. I was there from 84-88 and knew Tom a little bit from a mutual friend. He had a monster break out game in the NIT one year against Indiana (I think our only post season play when I was a student) and everyone thought he was going to bust out the next year as even Bobby Knight called out his performance at IU...he had the size but his game regressed...probably as the entire program regressed. I remember after Majerus was replaced by Dukiet, by my senior year, drinking myself into a depressing realization at the MECCA that we probably would not win the WIAC if we were moved to D3. That is why I find the impatience (by some) with Wojo sort of amusing....living through that hell of program decline less than a decade after winning a national championship makes one appreciate where we are today as a program.
Perhaps you mean ft to be the one-foot line LOL! I know what you mean about Tommy Copa. He was sadly not what we had hoped for, kinda like Dean Marquardt.
As to the impatience, you come from the Warriors that were despondent. If my experience was the Dukiet and later Majerus years, I would think Wojo was greater than he is. But I came from the Al era an. d we think we should have a God-given to be an elite team and compete for the national championship.
Wojo is going to get us there, I'm confident . But there will be some fits and starts along the way.
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just a thought, and I'm sorry if someone else has already suggested it, but could Heldt start? here my thought, Fisher is extremely important to our success, just like Crowder was under Buzz. At the beginning of Crowder's senior season, he always seemed to start the game and pick up an early foul or 2, so Buzz sat him for the first 3 minutes to let him get past his nerves, or whatever caused him to pick up early fouls.
Would this be a good concept for wojo to follow? let Fisher sit on the bench and then bring him in at the first substitution once the game and settled in?
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just a thought, and I'm sorry if someone else has already suggested it, but could Heldt start? here my thought, Fisher is extremely important to our success, just like Crowder was under Buzz. At the beginning of Crowder's senior season, he always seemed to start the game and pick up an early foul or 2, so Buzz sat him for the first 3 minutes to let him get past his nerves, or whatever caused him to pick up early fouls.
Would this be a good concept for wojo to follow? let Fisher sit on the bench and then bring him in at the first substitution once the game and settled in?
Sure, but I think that's more a gimmick thing than anything else. If Matt starts and Luke comes in at the under-16, what's to stop him from getting two fouls before the 10 minute mark? I think it's smarter to go with your best lineup and adjust as the fouls and situations dictate. Unless Matt gave a significant advantage over Luke on the tip (like Otule over Gardner), there's no real justification for doing that.
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Copa had a decent outside shot from about the ft line in...he fairly consistently knocked down open outside shots from that spot or on either corner of the ft line...that was about it. Decent at the time for a big man but nowhere near what the game has moved to today. I was there from 84-88 and knew Tom a little bit from a mutual friend. He had a monster break out game in the NIT one year against Indiana (I think our only post season play when I was a student) and everyone thought he was going to bust out the next year as even Bobby Knight called out his performance at IU...he had the size but his game regressed...probably as the entire program regressed. I remember after Majerus was replaced by Dukiet, by my senior year, drinking myself into a depressing realization at the MECCA that we probably would not win the WIAC if we were moved to D3. That is why I find the impatience (by some) with Wojo sort of amusing....living through that hell of program decline less than a decade after winning a national championship makes one appreciate where we are today as a program.
Anyway....that being said...I like how Matt is progressing and think he will be a solid, serviceable big for us with the outside chance of surprising us with his upside.
You and I were there at the same time. I remember the foul line jumper. I remember the free throws. I remember the dunks ending up in press row. I had mutual friends and shared a couple of smaller classes with Tom. Really nice guy. Would have been a benefit to almost any MU team since. But didn't really live up to expectations.
That was the NIT game on St. Patrick's day, 1985, at Assembly Hall, where MU finished the game with Pat Foley as the biggest of our 4 players left on the floor. I proceeded to get the drunkest I have ever been. Two day hangover. Getting off of the elevator the next morning and bee-lining to the bathroom in the lobby of McCormick and hurling again. Father Donnelly's History 002 was quite the struggle on March 18.
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just a thought, and I'm sorry if someone else has already suggested it, but could Heldt start? here my thought, Fisher is extremely important to our success, just like Crowder was under Buzz. At the beginning of Crowder's senior season, he always seemed to start the game and pick up an early foul or 2, so Buzz sat him for the first 3 minutes to let him get past his nerves, or whatever caused him to pick up early fouls.
Would this be a good concept for wojo to follow? let Fisher sit on the bench and then bring him in at the first substitution once the game and settled in?
They did that with Jae Junior year. I think the might have had Williams take the team to the under 16.
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Perhaps you mean ft to be the one-foot line LOL! I know what you mean about Tommy Copa. He was sadly not what we had hoped for, kinda like Dean Marquardt.
Marquardt gave us the ND game. Bob Bach almost had a stroke calling that game. Dean also did the Stevof gal from Racine too. Believe he married her.
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You and I were there at the same time. I remember the foul line jumper. I remember the free throws. I remember the dunks ending up in press row. I had mutual friends and shared a couple of smaller classes with Tom. Really nice guy. Would have been a benefit to almost any MU team since. But didn't really live up to expectations.
That was the NIT game on St. Patrick's day, 1985, at Assembly Hall, where MU finished the game with Pat Foley as the biggest of our 4 players left on the floor. I proceeded to get the drunkest I have ever been. Two day hangover. Getting off of the elevator the next morning and bee-lining to the bathroom in the lobby of McCormick and hurling again. Father Donnelly's History 002 was quite the struggle on March 18.
We certainly slopped through the same vomit-filled hallways in McCormick...I was there as a freshman in 84-85 too...
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We certainly slopped through the same vomit-filled hallways in McCormick...I was there as a freshman in 84-85 too...
Same here. 6th floor
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just a thought, and I'm sorry if someone else has already suggested it, but could Heldt start? here my thought, Fisher is extremely important to our success, just like Crowder was under Buzz. At the beginning of Crowder's senior season, he always seemed to start the game and pick up an early foul or 2, so Buzz sat him for the first 3 minutes to let him get past his nerves, or whatever caused him to pick up early fouls.
Would this be a good concept for wojo to follow? let Fisher sit on the bench and then bring him in at the first substitution once the game and settled in?
When Bruce Weber coached Illinois to the 2005 championship game (with Bill Self's players), he did something I always thought was interesting. As soon as one of his bigs (usually Augustine, but not always) picked up a foul, he would pull him immediately, let him sit on the bench for a couple of minutes, and then put him back in. Weber said the thought process was he wanted to avoid the 2-fouls-in-30-seconds kind of thing that can happen. Plus, he thought it was good to let the big man relax for a minute and re-evaluate a little how he might play once back in the game.
I thought it was interesting at the time and it usually worked. Maybe other coaches do this, too ... I just haven't noticed it. I watched a ton of Illinois basketball during the Kruger, Self and Weber years.
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Same here. 6th floor
7th. IIRC, mug644 was also on 7 in 84-85
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7th. IIRC, mug644 was also on 7 in 84-85
4th floor...with a great view of the Ardmore from my window
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Same here. 6th floor
I was on the 6th 84-85. West wing